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Zach J.
2010-04-13, 11:58 PM
Me again. I've realized that a Mystic Theurge is probably too complicated for me at the moment and so as I sat thinking of what would be useful to my party I began to think up a character concept. Here's the first level character minus any equipment or money.

CN Half-Elf Sorcerer
Str 10, Dex 14, Con 12, Int14, Wis 10, Cha 15

Bluff +6 (+9 with Viper Familiar), Concentration +5, Diplomacy +4, Gather Information +4, Listen +1, Sleight of Hand +6, Profession (Gambler) +4, Search +2, Spot +1, Use Rope +4
Deft Hands

1: Disguise Self, Grease
0: Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic

Basically this character is a compulsive gambler who's in debt when the current party meets him. He needs an out so he quickly offers his services to their group. The only problem is...is he useful? I gave him skills that I thought fit him rp wise, but I don't know how much that cripples him mechanics wise. Your thoughts?

P.S. RP wise I thought that when this character's sorcerous abilities manifested he immediately thought that he could use them to feed his gambling addiction. He's a swell guy. :) His next feat will most likely be Eschew Components. I see him as the kind of guy who never has too much money on him at any given point...might be handy to not have to worry about material components.

Edit: If you don't think this character will contribute much to a party beyond laughs feel free to make some suggestions. :)

Keld Denar
2010-04-14, 12:15 AM
I'd switch at least one of those spells to something that is more useful in combat. Charm Person is something you do before combat to prevent it. It doesn't do much when your allies are already hacking someone to bits. Diguise Self likewise is handy, but not really in combat. If you picked up...say...Grease, for now, you'd be a bit more versatile in and out of combat. You can always take the other when you reach level 2.

Other than that, it looks like you are on your way to the Fatespinner PrC in Complete Arcane. Profession(Gambler) is one of the prereqs. Its a good PrC, at least for the first 4 levels. Its up to the individual if 1 caster level is worth it for the ability to autokill/charm/etc anyone once per day.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 12:18 AM
Hmm, Grease actually seems like something that this guy would like a lot. Wow, there's actually a prestige class called Fatespinner. I'll have to see if my DM has Complete Mage. That sounds pretty cool. Thanks!

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 12:21 AM
I second the idea that at least one damaging power is a good idea. Even a cantrip at least gives you a use in combat beyond missing with a crossbow repeatedly; playing a caster who has to waste a round because all they can do is cast and they have no applicable spells is extremely frustrating.

Other than that, as noted, you're well on your way to the more diplomantic PrCs, and a gambler with that kind of power could make a fantastically fun character. Just make sure you have some way to turn your class's primary function into damage, or at the very least battlefield control in-combat.

Flipping through the Spell Compendium, using Scatterspray on a deck of cards would be both useful and at least somewhat thematic.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 12:27 AM
Grease would work into the battlefield control aspect right? I imagine that would be this guy's intent more than straight up damage. He's someone who wants to have the deck stacked in his favor.


...I'm gonna need more gambling puns. :D

Edit: I'm thinking Disguise Self and Grease for his 1st level spells now and he'll add Charm Person at 2nd.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 12:35 AM
Grease would indeed work. Scatterspray would just make a stack of cards or gambling chips (or dice...)fly apart, explosively unstacking that favorably stacked deck in favor of damage.

If you want more battlefield control, Caltrops is a cantrip.
If you want more gambling control, there is a first-level spell called Cheat.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 12:38 AM
Oh. My. That actually sounds pretty cool.

Hmm, I rolled for wealth and it looks like my lil' gambler's done quite well. I rolled max wealth (120gp) and aside from my spell component pouch (5 gp) and a silver symbol of Olidamarra (25 gp) I'm not quite sure what to purchase. I'm thinking that this fellow probably has at least one change of clothes (a peasant's outfit) for when he's trying to escape the authorities or whoever wants to find him, but that's it. Any suggestions? :)

Edit: Smokesticks and Tindertwigs. I've always wanted an excuse to use these!

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 12:40 AM
A crossbow will see you through the early levels where you don't have enough spells to fire one off every round (and there are plenty of tricks arcane casters can pull with crossbows). A light crossbow and some bolts are within your price range, I believe.

Alternatively, a Disguise Kit would fit in perfectly.

Just_Ice
2010-04-14, 12:42 AM
Grease is awesome, if not a little bit game-breaking. Basically anything stuck in it makes checks every round to stand, and their movement is reduced to 5 ft. Even if they go prone and wade through it, it's basically always worth it to use grease. Also: greasefires. It screws with combat without directly dealing damage and is very effective against the average low-level creature.

Disguise self is also solid for non-combat situations. Besides limited uses, it's basically strictly better than having the skill.

Your stats are also respectable (no negatives, I've seen a party with two guys of total mods of -1 and 0 after racial additions before) so you should be able to contribute unless the rest of your comrades are powergamers or very lucky, or both.

Definitely change Magehand or something for a damaging cantrip; it's worth it.

Keld Denar
2010-04-14, 12:42 AM
Fatespinner is in Complete Arcane, not Complete Mage. Its a 5 level PrC that gives you a couple of neat abilities. One lets you allow a nearby ally or enemy reroll a given save, twice per day, and the main ability is to add "spin" to spells. You get 1 point of spin per level of Fatespinner, and you can apply one or all of it to any spell you cast. It increases the DC by 1 per point.

The 5th level doesn't increase caster level, but it has a rather interesting ability. It allows you to force a single foe to take a -10 penalty on a save for a spell you cast. A -10 penalty is pretty much forcing most foes to fail a save. Thats pretty strong, but many powerful DM "boss" type characters might be protected by the power of plot, making it less useful than you might think. Either way, 4 levels of the PrC are VERY solid for any arcane caster, especially a sorcerer who is already taking most of the prereqs.

Reluctance
2010-04-14, 12:48 AM
Skillwise, you'll want maxed Concentration for a caster. Other skills are unimportant, so therefore fine. Skill feats like Deft Hands are a waste when you think of all the actually useful things that feats can do.

The problem with decent battlefield control is that using it properly can be somewhat complicated to use effectively. If simplicity is what you're looking for, direct damage is incredibly straightforwards. There's plenty more effective stuff out there, but it's not like blasting is bad in an absolute sense.

And if you're looking for a charismatic skillful guy who happens to have nifty magical tricks up his sleeve, bards are probably more up your alley. And not a bad choice, either. You'll always have buffing as a backup option, and the class itself is sturdier than a frail caster. This isn't a problem if you know all the CYA tricks, but can keep you going a bit longer while you learn how to properly cheese out the game.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 01:01 AM
Can you fiddle with your stats at all? If you can, you might want to either drop a point of Int and and two of Str to get your Cha up to 16 (making your Charm Person harder to save against) or drop two Str to get Int 14 and pick up either Know(arcana) (if you're the only arcanist) or Use Magic Device (if you lack a divine caster) at max ranks. UMD is kind of meh starting out, but is wonderful at high levels.

EDIT: Just remembered something that'd be perfect for the character! In Complete Adventuerer (or maybe Complete Scoundrel, I don't recall) is a mechanic for Luck Feats. They mainly let you reroll things, or force enemies to reroll things. There's a PrC based around them that's 3/5 spellcasting, too.

Also, see if your GM will let your trade your Summon Familiar class feature for... anything else, really. A Wizard bonus feat, maybe.

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-14, 01:46 AM
The 5th level doesn't increase caster level, but it has a rather interesting ability. It allows you to force a single foe to take a -10 penalty on a save for a spell you cast. A -10 penalty is pretty much forcing most foes to fail a save. Thats pretty strong, but many powerful DM "boss" type characters might be protected by the power of plot, making it less useful than you might think. Either way, 4 levels of the PrC are VERY solid for any arcane caster, especially a sorcerer who is already taking most of the prereqs.The BBEG is probably protected by the power of HD > CL. I say skip the 5th level. Also, at first level, I'd recommend Enlarge Person over Grease. Grease will last you one round at first level, whereas Enlarge Person will last you ten rounds. And nothing's more awesome at first level than giving your big hulking beat stick a strength bonus, weapon damage bonus, and reach.

Also, yeah, the stat line. Needs moar cha, especially if you're going the charm/disguise route.

... Which leads me to the Beguiler. I'm not telling you to play the class, but check it out (PHBII). It seems right up your alley, and it's neigh-impossible to screw up.

Irreverent Fool
2010-04-14, 02:12 AM
The BBEG is probably protected by the power of HD > CL. I say skip the 5th level. Also, at first level, I'd recommend Enlarge Person over Grease. Grease will last you one round at first level, whereas Enlarge Person will last you ten rounds. And nothing's more awesome at first level than giving your big hulking beat stick a strength bonus, weapon damage bonus, and reach.

Also, yeah, the stat line. Needs moar cha, especially if you're going the charm/disguise route.

... Which leads me to the Beguiler. I'm not telling you to play the class, but check it out (PHBII). It seems right up your alley, and it's neigh-impossible to screw up.

I'll tell him to play the class then. Beguiler is a very solid class and you don't have the potential to screw yourself over for multiple levels by making a mistake in your spell choices. Granted, as a sorcerer you can use wands and such of those spells you don't have, but Beguiler seems to fit better flavor-wise for what you're trying to do. One thing to remember as a Beguiler though is that you're a bit weak vs undead and other mindless things. In those cases, focus on augmenting the party and illusions.

On spell choice as a sorcerer, you get so few spells that it is of the utmost importance that the spells you have remain useful for many levels. You can swap out old spells occasionally, but you must be picky. Things that don't need the benefit of your casting modifier (buffs and utility spells) aren't worth your slots. Scrolls are fairly cheap.

If you must play a sorcerer, the above posters have already mentioned that it is of vital importance to have at least one combat-useful spell per spell level. This is for your own benefit and that of your party. I've experienced being a spontaneous caster with nothing useful to do in combat. It's not fun and the other players/PCs generally consider you/your character dead weight.

Consider picking up Versatile Spellcaster to extend the use of those lower-level slots (it lets you spend two slots of one level to cast one of your known spells of a known spell one level higher).

Finally, though your story probably supports having a familiar (how better to cheat than with Mr. Kitty's ridiculous stealth being used to fetch you cards?), if you decide not to have one, it is a choice best made now. There are variant abilities available for sorcerer that let you sacrifice the ability to summon a familiar for something more useful. The popular one is Metamagic Specialist (iirc), which allows a sorcerer to apply metamagic feats to his spells without increasing the casting time.

If you do swap out the familiar, you should PrC out of sorcerer as soon as possible as the class offers nothing but full spell progression which can be gained through any number of PrCs. Rainbow Servant is popular. :smallbiggrin:

obnoxious
sig

Escheton
2010-04-14, 02:25 AM
halfling luckstealer?

heavy on the luckfeats and chronocharms?

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 09:15 AM
I'm not sure if my DM has the PHBII so I think I'm going to stick with sorcerer for now although the Beguiler does sound pretty cool. I'll also have to talk with her about taking some points out of his strength and dex and see if I can up his charisma to 16. Thanks for all the suggestions. I think this character will actually be able to do some good in the group. We're all fairly unoptimized players. Our current party is made up of a human rogue, a human swashbuckler/fighter, a human knight and an elf fighter (my current character). I think that if I get the chance to play this new character that he'll really be able to help out our group. :)

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 04:43 PM
Alright. If you check the first post I've been given the ok by my dm to change some stats around using the point buy numbers and with that I've managed to give myself max ranks in Concentration for first level. After that I plan to get at least five ranks in Bluff and start working on Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft. Basically this character doesn't really have any knowledge of what it is he's doing so he won't take ranks in the intelligence based skills until he starts adventuring. It's going to require some juggling in terms of skill points though. So what I'm asking is if there's a cap for the skills Concentration, Knowledge (Arcana) and Spellcraft where more points become superfluous or should I just try to keep those three skills as high as I can?

For instance here is my planned skill progression to level 6:

1: Bluff 4, Concentration 4, Profession (Gambler) 4, Sleight of Hand 2
2: Bluff 5, Concentration 5, Knowledge (Arcana) 1, Spellcraft 1
3: Concentration 6, Knowledge (Arcana) 3, Spellcraft 2
4: Concentration 7, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Spellcraft 4,
5: Concentration 8, Knowledge (Arcana) 5, Spellcraft 6
6: Concentration 9, Knowledge (Arcana) 6, Spellcraft 8

My planned feats are:

1: Deft Hands
3: Eschew Materials
6: Empower Spell? I should have Ray of Enfeeblement by this point in time and later on I could use it to empower Enervation. What do you guys think?

jiriku
2010-04-14, 05:00 PM
When you reach 4th level, be sure to pick up alter self, and swap out disguise self for a different 1st-level spell. Alter does everything disguise does, is harder to see through, and has offensive, defensive, and utility applications as well. It's an all-around useful spell.

Empower is always useful for a sorcerer, and I wouldn't pick it up any earlier than 6th level, so that's an excellent pick. Eschew Materials is probably worthless.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 05:09 PM
Hmm, I suppose I was thinking of Eschew Materials for RP reasons. What would you suggest I take instead from Core?

Thank you for the spell suggestion as well. I suppose I can list what spells I'm planning until about 4th level to make sure I'm not making any major screw-ups:

1st level:
1: Disguise Self, Grease
0: Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, Read Magic

2nd level:
0: Light

3rd level:
1: Charm Person

4th level:
2: Alter Self
1: Ray of Enfeeblement (replacing Disguise Self)
0: Ghost Sound

5th level:
1: Magic Missile
2: Invisibility

6th level:
0: Dancing Lights
3: Dispel Magic

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 05:10 PM
The problem with taking metamagic feats as a sorcerer is that without Rapid Metamagic (which is a feat) they take your entire action. So you can't move and cast at the same time. Which is bad.

Don't take Deft Hands. Waste of a feat. There are many better feats. Even Point Blank Shot, for your crossbow, is a better choice. And if you start using rays it's nice too. Even Magical Aptitude is better. Spellcraft and UMD are useful skills.

Speaking of which, what race are you? You haven't talked about racial bonuses at all.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 05:12 PM
Oh he's a half-elf. I know that they're not very strong mechanically, but I just want to emphasize again that the group I play with does not really optimize.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 05:20 PM
Wow, I had forgotten how bad half-elves are in 3.X. I mean, I guess the skill bonuses are okay... Hmm, ask your GM if you can take Spellcasting Prodigy (okay, that's not a real suggestion, but it would still be nice).

You also get a new 1st level spell at level 2.

Rogue/Bard/Shadowdancer, while not amazing, is solid. Deft Hands is not. A +1 to hit and damage is extremely useful, and it will apply to Ray of Enfeeblement. Which is awesome.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 05:22 PM
Hmm...what about this then?

1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
6: Empower Spell

Edit: Also I checked the SRD and it says that sorcerers don't learn a new first level spell until 3rd level.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 05:32 PM
Precise Shot is nice if you're planning to get into rays. And you probably should; Empowered Scorching Rays are fun. Though you might need Energy Substitution when you start fighting fire-resistant things. Might be a better choice than Invisibility; you probably will need some blasting, and metamagiced Scorching Rays are a great way to do that.

You're right about the spells, I was looking at the wrong table.

taltamir
2010-04-14, 05:42 PM
I noticed you don't have spellcraft skill points...

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 06:32 PM
Just in case you're curious here's the current party...

Alacrite: Level 1 Halfling Rogue (He's currently on a side-quest of sorts. The player hasn't been able to show up for the last few sessions. Will probably stay straight rogue.)
Feat: Deft Hands

Bridget: Level 2 Human Rogue (Our DM's character. She's planning on multi-classing in to bard and fighter and then prestige-classing into Shadowdancer.)
Feats: Acrobatic, Dodge

Calidor: Level 2 Elf Fighter (My current character. I'm planning on prestige-classing into Berserker if he survives that long.)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Bladed Sword Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting

Elias: Level 1 Swashbuckler/Level 1 Fighter (Also human. He's just planning on staying swashbuckler and fighter as far as I know. Fights with a rapier and light shield.)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), ???

Sir Jett: Level 2 Human Knight (This is the DM's sister. She's a relatively new player and doesn't use the knight's abilities all that often. She'll probably remake a fighter as she also doesn't act particularly lawful. If that happens she'll probably stay straight fighter.)

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 06:50 PM
I noticed you don't have spellcraft skill points...

In the DM's setting arcane spellcaster are relatively rare. For that reason and for the reason that this character has never had formal schooling he doesn't have any knowledge of the arcane. Spellcraft wouldn't get much use at this point anyway. The DM has told that we may see clerics once we get higher in level, but she doesn't like making or using arcane types. I doubt we'll ever fight one.

JasonP
2010-04-14, 07:22 PM
Looks like a fun character, don't forget the Scatterspray spell which would be really thematic if used with decks of cards or dice (it's in the Spell Compendium but not sure the original book). Also check out the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel if you can, they aren't super strong but would be very fun and thematic with Fatespinner's other abilities.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 07:37 PM
Just in case you're curious here's the current party...

Alacrite: Level 1 Halfling Rogue (He's currently on a side-quest of sorts. The player hasn't been able to show up for the last few sessions. Will probably stay straight rogue.)
Feat: Deft Hands

Bridget: Level 2 Human Rogue (Our DM's character. She's planning on multi-classing in to bard and fighter and then prestige-classing into Shadowdancer.)
Feats: Acrobatic, Dodge

Calidor: Level 2 Elf Fighter (My current character. I'm planning on prestige-classing into Berserker if he survives that long.)
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Bladed Sword Proficiency, Two-Weapon Fighting

Elias: Level 1 Swashbuckler/Level 1 Fighter (Also human. He's just planning on staying swashbuckler and fighter as far as I know. Fights with a rapier and light shield.)
Feats: Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Rapier), ???

Sir Jett: Level 2 Human Knight (This is the DM's sister. She's a relatively new player and doesn't use the knight's abilities all that often. She'll probably remake a fighter as she also doesn't act particularly lawful. If that happens she'll probably stay straight fighter.)

So, um, has your GM given you a way to heal that isn't sitting around for days/weeks letting natural healing occur? If not, for all that is (un)holy, get Use Magic Device, so you can activate wands of Lesser Vigor. Or if your campaign lacks those, Cure Light Wounds.

Also, one two-weapon fighter with a shield, and another with Improved Unarmed Strike. Why? And if arcane classes are so rare, why is the GM making herself a Bard/Shadowdancer?

Seatbelt
2010-04-14, 07:39 PM
Grease would indeed work. Scatterspray would just make a stack of cards or gambling chips (or dice...)fly apart, explosively unstacking that favorably stacked deck in favor of damage.

If you want more battlefield control, Caltrops is a cantrip.
If you want more gambling control, there is a first-level spell called Cheat.

If you do this, make sure to name your character Gambit, and carry a quarterstaff. You are now my favorite X-man.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 10:10 PM
So, um, has your GM given you a way to heal that isn't sitting around for days/weeks letting natural healing occur? If not, for all that is (un)holy, get Use Magic Device, so you can activate wands of Lesser Vigor. Or if your campaign lacks those, Cure Light Wounds.

Also, one two-weapon fighter with a shield, and another with Improved Unarmed Strike. Why? And if arcane classes are so rare, why is the GM making herself a Bard/Shadowdancer?

The swashbuckler uses his rapier and shield bash for his two weapons. The other fighter just finds himself without a weapon enough that improved unarmed strike was a necessity. It's like a back-up plan. Plus I like to find lots of different ways to kill my enemies. We're low enough level that I can still be pretty inventive. ;)

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 10:15 PM
I introduced the character tonight. Our party was in prison for false charges and the rogue managed to figure out that Heian (the sorcerer) was able to communicate in Shadowspeech which is a type of handcant in the campaign setting. He agreed to help break them out. He was able to cast disguise self and make himself look like a taller elf. He frantically began to shake the bars of his cell and another guard came to investigate. He unlocked the door as he was curious as to how this elf got into the cell and Heian who had been able to hide two daggers in the folds of his clothing as well as his viper familiar was able to take him down fairly easily and quietly. From there he unlocked the party's cell door and managed to escape still disguised. It took some fairly high Sleight of Hand and Bluff rolls and the guard failing the viper's poison save (Which he did. Poor guy.) but it was still pretty cool when all was said and done.

I don't know if this character will replace my other (the elf fighter) but it was kind of fun to try him out anyway.

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 10:17 PM
So, um, has your GM given you a way to heal that isn't sitting around for days/weeks letting natural healing occur? If not, for all that is (un)holy, get Use Magic Device, so you can activate wands of Lesser Vigor. Or if your campaign lacks those, Cure Light Wounds.

Also, one two-weapon fighter with a shield, and another with Improved Unarmed Strike. Why? And if arcane classes are so rare, why is the GM making herself a Bard/Shadowdancer?

Arcane classes are relatively rare, but bards are the most common. I'm not sure about shadowdancers, but that's still a ways off so it's possible that the character will encounter them. It's actual wizards and sorcerers that are more rare. Sorry. I should have specified.

We've not actually gotten involved in a terrible amount of combat so far so healing has not been a huge problem. We've also been spending a good deal of what gold we've made on potions of cure light wounds.

Lost Wanderer
2010-04-14, 10:27 PM
Arcane classes are relatively rare, but bards are the most common. I'm not sure about shadowdancers, but that's still a ways off so it's possible that the character will encounter them. It's actual wizards and sorcerers that are more rare. Sorry. I should have specified.

We've not actually gotten involved in a terrible amount of combat so far so healing has not been a huge problem. We've also been spending a good deal of what gold we've made on potions of cure light wounds.

That is by far the least efficient way to heal, price wise. The most efficient way to heal is wands of Lesser Vigor. Followed by wands of Cure Light Wounds, followed by scrolls of LV, then scrolls of CLW, then potions of LV and finally potions of CLW. Which is why you need UMD; to turn on the wands so you don't spend half or more of your gold just staying alive. Does the Bard have UMD? She at least can use wands of CLW without it...

Zach J.
2010-04-14, 10:28 PM
That is by far the least efficient way to heal, price wise. The most efficient way to heal is wands of Lesser Vigor. Followed by wands of Cure Light Wounds, followed by scrolls of LV, then scrolls of CLW, then potions of LV and finally potions of CLW. Which is why you need UMD; to turn on the wands so you don't spend half or more of your gold just staying alive. Does the Bard have UMD? She at least can use wands of CLW without it...

She's not a bard yet, but once she is I'll definitely bring it up with her. I actually think she's going into bard so she can do some healing...

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 01:24 PM
I should probably make a new thread and I will if asked to but I was just curious as to what you players on the forums think would be the most useful kind of character to add to our party at the moment? Would it be some kind of arcane spellcaster? A healer? I'm curious to see your suggestions, but if you do have some ideas I ask that you restrict yourself to core in terms of everything. That includes classes, feats and spells. Thanks!

Edit: Our party is currently on the run from the law. Our swashbuckler was believed to be someone he was not by a princess. When she found out that he wasn't her beloved she flipped out. Even though he didn't even try anything with her... Anyway we were all summoned to court and the princess accused our rogue of stealing her necklace. It didn't make any sense but we were sent to jail. At this point the sorcerer helped us break out and we narrowly managed to escape the city...

Keld Denar
2010-04-15, 01:41 PM
Druid...druids make everything better.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 01:44 PM
Hmm...I've never actually played a druid before. What suggestions do you have for a newbie?

Keld Denar
2010-04-15, 01:47 PM
Spell Focus Conjouration > Augmented Summoning > Natural Spell > Skill Focus:Underwater Basketweaving

Thats should suit you very well...

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 01:48 PM
Spell Focus Conjouration > Augmented Summoning > Natural Spell > Skill Focus:Underwater Basketweaving

Thats should suit you very well...

Underwater Basketweaving. Yes....it's all starting to come together.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-15, 01:52 PM
Hmm...I've never actually played a druid before. What suggestions do you have for a newbie?

#1. Wildshape is your friend.... Take feats that enhance this (such as Abberant and Vermin wildshapes, along with Dragon far later)

#2. Druid has possibly the best spell list in d&d. Have fun with nice spells from multiple sources.

#3. Don't forget to heal occasionally! You will make more friends this way

#4. Pick a race that fits the flavor of a Tree-Hugger... Elf and half-elf are staples, but be creative! Killoren (Races of the Wild) and Neraph (Planar Handbook) are both Immune to Humanoid-Only Spells (Killoren is Fey and Neraph is Outsider)

#5. Take a 1 level dip into Monk (no, seriously) for WIS to AC. Big Boon

#6. Focus on taking no more than 2 PrCs, though straight druid is superb, I adore Holt Warden and Lion of Talisid personally

The Rabbler
2010-04-15, 03:41 PM
#5. Take a 1 level dip into Monk (no, seriously) for WIS to AC. Big Boon


can't this be achieved by a swordsage dip? then you get martial goodness along with the wis to AC.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 03:54 PM
can't this be achieved by a swordsage dip? then you get martial goodness along with the wis to AC.

It takes 2 levels for Swordsage to get Wisdom to AC.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 03:54 PM
can't this be achieved by a swordsage dip? then you get martial goodness along with the wis to AC.

Monks have to be lawful as well. Son unless you start out as monk and decide to become neutral and go hug trees I don't think it would work that well. I couldn't take the dip in swordsage anyway. Like I said I only have access to core material. I know there's more in the SRD but I doubt my DM will look at that stuff.

Malfunctioned
2010-04-15, 04:25 PM
Actually a druid has to be 'Any' Neutral, that means you could be Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good or even Neutral Evil, though in your case Lawful Neutral would be useful.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 04:27 PM
Actually a druid has to be 'Any' Neutral, that means you could be Chaotic Neutral, Neutral Good or even Neutral Evil, though in your case Lawful Neutral would be useful.

Haha, oops I guess I had a brainfart.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-15, 04:37 PM
Spell Focus Conjouration > Augmented Summoning > Natural Spell > Skill Focus:Underwater Basketweaving

Thats should suit you very well...

And Toughness. Don't forget Toughness.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 04:41 PM
And Toughness. Don't forget Toughness.

Hmm...so...

1. Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3. Augment Summoning
6. Natural Spell
9. Toughness
12. Skill Focus (Underwater Basketweaving)
15. Toughness
18. Toughness

or...


1. Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3. Augment Summoning
6. Natural Spell
9. Skill Focus (Underwater Basketweaving)
12. Toughness
15. Toughness
18. Toughness

I might be okay putting off my bonus to the Underwater Basketweaving skill for a bit as it would be very helpful to get those extra three hit points at level 9. On the other hand I would like to be very good at Underwater Basketweaving as soon as I can. Decisions...

Keld Denar
2010-04-15, 04:49 PM
NEVER UNDERESTIMATE THE PURE POWAH OF BASKET WEAVING! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870302/The_Basket_Weavers_Handbook)

The whole point of that joke is that beyond those 3 feats, you don't really need ANYTHING to make a druid decent. You can have tons of fun with just those 3, and take any other feats you want. Typically, though, some metamagic is common, with Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and Scupt Spell being forerunners, or some feats that increase the potency of your wild shapes like Improved Grapple or (Improved) Multiattack.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-15, 04:52 PM
I seem to remember a warforged basket-weaver build who defeated a number of TO monstrosities by weaving baskets until they died of old age.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 07:28 PM
Hmm, so how am I able to take Multiattack and Improved Multiattack? I only meet the prerequisites when Wild Shaped. Is it like a character who takes a feat that they only meet the prerequiste for by magic?

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 07:38 PM
Hmm...it looks like it's really hard to screw druids up huh? Here are some feats I was thinking of (For real this time. ;)):

1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3: Augment Summoning
6: Natural Spell
9: Extend Spell
12: Quicken Spell
15: Spell Penetration
18: Greater Spell Penetration

Fixed: Changed due to suggestions.

I didn't roll wonderfully on his stats but I least I don't have any minuses.

Here they are:

Str 10 Dex 13 Con 10 Int 13 Wis 15 Cha 10

Skills: Concentration +4, Handle Animal +4, Knowledge (Nature) +7, Spellcraft +5, Survival +8

jiriku
2010-04-15, 07:49 PM
Keld Denar is lying shamelessly. Do not trust him, and weave no baskets. Craft (fingerpainting) is the critical ingredient in all druid power builds.


Looking more seriously at your sorcerer (assuming you play him further), consider taking ghost sound or dancing lights at second level. Both of these spells naturally lend themselves to creative and interesting uses, and you can just carry torches or sunrods if you simply must have light.

Looking more seriously at a druid, good beginning druid feats include Natural Spell (cast while furry), Extra Wild Shape (2 extra uses of furry per day), and Fast Wild Shape (get furry as a move action). SP:C, and Augment Summoning are nice if you plan to summon in every battle, and only modest otherwise.

Be warned, druids are very easy to build, but very complicated to play, once you're juggling your summoned creatures, animal companion, wild shape forms, and spell lists. Don't let that worry you too much, however, because a druid on a bad day is tougher and more capable than most other classes on a good day.

Edit: Regarding your feat progression, GSF:C won't be very useful. You're just not going to be spending very many actions casting conjuration spells that allow a save. If you want to craft staves, get that at 15 instead of 18.

aje8
2010-04-15, 07:54 PM
1: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
3: Augment Summoning
6: Natural Spell
9: Extend Spell
12: Quicken Spell
15: Greater Spell Focus (Conjuration)
18: Craft Staff
Craft Staff is really bad. In the long run, you're actually harming yourself by spending exp for a limited charges item. Because when the charges run out, you've lost exp and gained nothing. In fact, BUYING staffs is generally bad; spending xp on them is thus horrible.

Greater Spell Focus(Conjuration) is also a bit on the weak side. Many Conjuration spells don't offer saves and as a Druid (as opposed to a Specalist Wizard) you're spells will likley run the gamut of schools.

I would suggest Spell Penetration and it's Greater version instead. Because everything has spell resitance at the higher levels.

Though.... as others have said, you're a Druid so it basically doesn't matter what you take past Natrual Spell.

EDIT: Oh and if that Sorcerer character still matters, Magic Missle is a weak spell at level 1. At level 6 that damage is less than minor, it's irrelevant.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 07:57 PM
Ah, I see. Thank you! I'll switch that now.

I enjoyed the sorcerer, but I'm pretty worried about our party right now. I think that a druid could actually help out. I could summon allies, heal and cast in general, and fight in melee if need be.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 08:03 PM
Hmm...while on the subject of druids what makes these guardians of the forest go adventuring? I need some kind of hook for my DM so she'll let me enter in the next session. I know that we're going to be passing through a nomadic elf camp and that my elf fighter is going to stay behind to help curb his anger. The new elf druid will then join the party but I just don't know why...

deuxhero
2010-04-15, 08:04 PM
One thing to remember as a Beguiler though is that you're a bit weak vs undead and other mindless things. In those cases, focus on augmenting the party and illusions.

What?! Glittterdust works fine and mindless creatures can not distinguish illusions from reality like normal creatures can. Only your [mind effecting] stuff is borked.

aje8
2010-04-15, 08:06 PM
Ah, I see. Thank you! I'll switch that now.

I enjoyed the sorcerer, but I'm pretty worried about our party right now. I think that a druid could actually help out. I could summon allies, heal and cast in general, and fight in melee if need be.
Sounds correct to me. IMO a Druid could be a big help to your party. Because as of now it has little battlefield control or healing. A Druid can provide both, as you said. However, I don't reccomend wading into melee. A d8 hit die and hide armor ain't much protection. Wait until you get Wild Shape to go into melee personally. You can safely provide melee support from the start, however, by using your Animal Companion and your Augmented Summons.

Keld Denar
2010-04-15, 08:06 PM
Open your MM and check out the Hippogryph. Its seriously the best monster on the SNAII list. When you get to SNAIII, get a couple Hippogryphs. Its even worth it to cast SNAIV to get a small horde of Hippogryphs. With the +4 Str and Con they get from Augemented Summons, they are pretty badass against anything that doesn't have DR. If your foes have DR, cut back on the Hippogryphs, and do one of the other 20 awesome things that druids can do.

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 08:15 PM
Wow Hippogriffs do look pretty cool!

Zach J.
2010-04-15, 08:52 PM
Hmm...how many tricks does an animal companion know at first level? Is it just the one bonus trick or can I assume that my druid has actually spent some time training his companion?

GoodbyeSoberDay
2010-04-15, 09:02 PM
I find it best to work with your DM on plot hooks, but here are some basic Druidic 'reasons to adventure' off the top of my head, knowing nothing about your campaign setting...

-Your Druid's circle has gleaned troublesome visions of the future from their natural divinations, and want to send one of their acolytes out to figure out what these visions mean.

-Your Druidic mentor was killed by [antagonist]. You seek to avenge your mentor's death.

-All Druids from this area go adventuring to expand their knowledge of the surrounding land and better attune themselves to nature.

-A local horde of [monstrous race]s have been chopping/burning down a local forest, and the adventuring party is headed towards them anyway. Your job? Convince them to help you tenderize some [monstrous race] meat.

-Wanderlust.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-15, 09:06 PM
-A local horde of humans have been chopping/burning down a local forest, and the adventuring party is headed towards them anyway. Your job? Convince them to help you tenderize some human meat.

Fixed for you. Much more interesting hook, and monsters get the shaft too often.

PersonMan
2010-04-15, 09:21 PM
Fixed for you. Much more interesting hook, and monsters get the shaft too often.

Hmmm. Well, I propose the following fix:


-A local horde of [majority group mixed with minority group]s have been chopping/burning down a local forest, and the adventuring party is headed towards them anyway. Your job? Convince them to help you tenderize some [majority group mixed with minority group] meat.