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Trekkin
2010-04-14, 08:06 AM
I'm trying to assign my psicrystal feats, and I can't decide what to give it, primarily because I can't see how to give it a power level higher than first so I can give it Expanded Knowledge. (Clearly, I have Feat Leech).

Is there any way to give it powers of second level, ideally Bestow Power?

What are other good feats or combinations of feats to give a psicrystal?

Incidentally, before any arguments get raised, can we simply assume for the purposes of this thread that psicrystals gain feats as normal for a creature of their HD?

Prime32
2010-04-14, 08:21 AM
Give it Wild Talent (or Hidden Talent), then you take Psicrystal Containment. Now your psicrystal can gain psionic focus for you. Gets better if you also give it Psychic Meditation and interweave your actions - this way you can use multiple metapsionic feats per round.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 08:33 AM
Does it have the Wisdom for Psionic Meditation?

Edit: Wisdom 10. It does not, unless somehow it uses its creator's ability scores too.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-14, 08:41 AM
checked the SRD it needs concentration 7 ranks and wis 13, and if you rule they get feats for HD argueably they also get skill points

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 08:50 AM
The skill points aren't the problem, at least in this case; they have their creator's skills, which here includes sufficient Concentration. The problem is it doesn't get Wisdom 13.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-14, 08:54 AM
hmmm is there the equivalent of owl's wisdom as a power? pay for a permanencied owl's wisdom? do they get stat bonus for every 4rth HD?

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 10:08 AM
you qualify for feats with permanencied owl's wisdom?

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-14, 10:09 AM
VoP. Just because.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-14, 10:10 AM
you qualify for feats with permanencied owl's wisdom?

As long as it doesn't get dispelled, yeah. Your Wisdom is higher, though you'll lose the Feat as long as you're in an Antimagic Field.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 10:17 AM
I'd go VoP, but apparently expediency makes you Chaotic Neutral in the eyes of my DM, so my now-CN crystal doesnt qualify.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-14, 10:20 AM
I'd go VoP, but apparently expediency makes you Chaotic Neutral in the eyes of my DM, so my now-CN crystal doesnt qualify.

Say you got your psicrystal before you got whatever expediency is. That way your psicrystal retains its old alignment and can get the feat.

Then duck when the DM throws a load of dice at you.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 10:25 AM
Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean that my tendencies to act in the most expedient fashion available have branded me CN.

Any way to temporarily give it a CON score, then?

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-14, 10:38 AM
Sorry, I should have clarified. I mean that my tendencies to act in the most expedient fashion available have branded me CN.

Any way to temporarily give it a CON score, then?

Ah , ok ignore me then.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 11:42 AM
So is there a way, a la Owl's Wisdom, to give a construct a Con score of at least 13 to qualify for Incarnum feats?

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:08 PM
Sidebar on page 67, Psi Handbook, If I remember correctly.
Take a look.

edit: actually, it's a footer, but whatever. it's what you want.

Also, there's a couple incarnum feats you can take for infinite PP loop. If you want that, I guess.

Arakune
2010-04-14, 12:10 PM
So is there a way, a la Owl's Wisdom, to give a construct a Con score of at least 13 to qualify for Incarnum feats?

Metamorphosis, if you rule that he can get access to it when you want. You just lose access to the feats when not metamorphosed.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 12:25 PM
Sidebar on page 67, Psi Handbook, If I remember correctly.
Take a look.

edit: actually, it's a footer, but whatever. it's what you want.

Also, there's a couple incarnum feats you can take for infinite PP loop. If you want that, I guess.

Problem with that is that that feat states rather explicitly: "This is not a manifester level"

That said, Martial Study x2. One for a Random White Raven Maneuver, another for White Raven Tactics. Because giving the master another round is awesome.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 12:34 PM
After you take that, though, can't you take Practiced Manifester?

and how do maneuvers work, anyway?

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:51 PM
Yes, after you take that, you take Practiced, if I remember correctly.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 12:54 PM
After you take that, though, can't you take Practiced Manifester?

and how do maneuvers work, anyway?

No. Because you must choose a manifesting class that you possess. The psicrystal does not possess one.

All characters have an initiator level = 1/2 their HD. Therefore if a psicrystal gets a level 6 feat, it can choose a level 2 maneuver when it takes martial study. (0.5 * 6HD = 3IL. IL 3 = Level 2 maneuvers)

When it gets to level 12, it can take level 3 maneuvers with that feat.
(0.5 * 12HD = 6IL. IL 5+ = Level 3 maneuvers)

Maneuver level progression follows more or less the same as wizards. (IL+1)/2 = Max maneuver level.

jpreem
2010-04-14, 01:28 PM
I'd go VoP, but apparently expediency makes you Chaotic Neutral in the eyes of my DM, so my now-CN crystal doesnt qualify.

Usually taking Vop for the psi-crystal makes YOU ( the player) chaotic in the eyes of a DM :smallbiggrin:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-14, 01:35 PM
Give it Wild Talent (or Hidden Talent), then you take Psicrystal Containment. Now your psicrystal can gain psionic focus for you. Gets better if you also give it Psychic Meditation and interweave your actions - this way you can use multiple metapsionic feats per round.

I don't belive it works that way. If you have psicrystal containment you still have to pass it your Focus, theroreticaly you can pass it your focus and it can be focused.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 01:39 PM
I don't belive it works that way. If you have psicrystal containment you still have to pass it your Focus, theroreticaly you can pass it your focus and it can be focused.

No. Any psionic creature can gain a focus. Any creature with power points is a psionic creature.

Giving it Wild talent etc. DOES let it focus itself, and Psicrystal containment DOES let you use that.

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 01:47 PM
Ugh, just share power metamorphosis, then hit it with mind seed.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 01:50 PM
Technically, doesn't their monster class count as a manifesting class given it's the HD gained from that class that lets it, via the feat, manifest?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 01:56 PM
Technically, doesn't their monster class count as a manifesting class given it's the HD gained from that class that lets it, via the feat, manifest?

No. The feat explicitly states that it is not a manifester level.

Power Attack is not a Human racial feature, even if you use your human racial feat to get it.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 01:59 PM
So how do we give it Expanded Knowledge?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 02:07 PM
So how do we give it Expanded Knowledge?

Doc Roc hit on it. Mind seed it, and turn it into a clone of you. Then Reform it.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 02:14 PM
and before seventeenth level when I can EK Mind Seed?

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 03:13 PM
Powerstone or similar.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 03:59 PM
That works, albeit expensively.

Having looked in the Tome of Magic, it appears a psicrystal can also be a Binder of any vestige level three or lower via two feats, or a Truenamer for one feat taken by the master and as many utterances as you want, taken via feats. Or a martial adept, as noted.

I wonder what other classes can be at least partially emulated via feats?

Radiun
2010-04-14, 04:37 PM
I wonder what other classes can be at least partially emulated via feats?


Fighter ;-)

That said I wish I had more to offer, but I'm on my first foray into psionics myself and can't suggest anything amazing.

Well, perhaps Multiattack and such for use when it is time to get your Metamorphosis on. If you can swing it, Metamorphic Transfer would be great too.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 04:51 PM
The problem is psicrystals have Wis and Cha 10, making it impossible for them to take Metamorphic transfer. They also don't have a Con score, which makes it impossible to take Incarnum feats.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-14, 05:11 PM
The problem is psicrystals have Wis and Cha 10, making it impossible for them to take Metamorphic transfer. They also don't have a Con score, which makes it impossible to take Incarnum feats.
There's a feat from Complete Psionic - Elemental Envoy (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Elemental_Envoy,all) which lets you trade your Psicrystal for an Elemental Steward - which does have a Con score. There's no mention of their hit dice actually advancing, though, like there is for a Psicrystal. Hmm....


Also, there's a couple incarnum feats you can take for infinite PP loop. If you want that, I guess.
Yeah - you need:
Power: Bestow Power
Feats: Midnight Augmentatin, Any Incarnum feat that boosts your Essentia Pool to two), Improved Essentia Capacity (optional, and mostly only for getting this at lower levels)

Now, what you need beyond that depends: Does Midnight Augmentation work per iteration of the Augmentation, or on the overall augmentation? If it's per iteration, then Midnight Augmentation, with enough essentia capacity to get to 2 points of essentia into Bestow Power is sufficient. Something else that matters somewhat: is the maximum power points spent on a power before or after reducers?

Case 1:
If it's "per iteration" and "after reducers", then at 5th, you have a recharge mechanism for infinite power points (although you'll need Improved Essentia Capacity unless you want to wait until 6th). Invest two essentia into Midnight Augmentation, use Bestow Power on yourself - 3 for the base, two iterations of augmentation (at 1 point each) for 5 PP spent. And with the base Bestow Power and 2 augmentations, you're bestowing 6 power points. Bestow Power on yourself, and you've got a net gain of 1 power point per manifestation (assuming, of course, that you blow your focus each time).

Case 2:
If it's "per iteration" but "before reducers", then you'll need to wait until 9th - same tactic as Case-1 above, but you need a higher manifester level to make it work, as you have to be capable of putting nine points into it (there's tricks to bring this down to 7th or 8th, even with no equipment).

Case 3:
If it's "final augmentation" and "after reducers", then you need to either get four points of essentia invested in the feat (3 points on Bestow Power + 6 points to augment twice - 4 points from Midnight Augmentation = 5 spent; gain 6 points), or find other methods of reducing costs (Earth Sense and Earth Power from Races of Stone - reduce the cost by 1 point when standing on unworked earth or stone; Torc of Power Preservation from the XPH).

Case 4:
If it's "Final Augmentation" and "before reducers", then you've got Case 3, but will need to wait until at least 9th due to the power point cost requirement.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 06:23 PM
Elemental Envoys don't gain HD. And incidentally, using Psycarnum Infusion with the above pp loop trick frees up your essentia for other things and the feat for use with multiple powers.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-14, 06:47 PM
Elemental Envoys don't gain HD.
Which I somewhat mentioned. They don't appear to gain HP, either, which makes them rather low-value to an adventurer.

And incidentally, using Psycarnum Infusion with the above pp loop trick frees up your essentia for other things and the feat for use with multiple powers.
Interesting... but I'm not so sure it lets you use it with multiple powers in a day (nothing in Psycarnum Infusion overrides the requirement to pick *one* power or the once per day picking restriction).

Also: you'll need Psicrystal Containment (or at least Psionic Meditation) due to the "one round" bit as well (you must expend your focus for Psycarnum Infusion, and must expend your focus to use Midnight Augmentation, and must do both in the space of a single round... and still have time to manifest the power). So it saves on your Essentia, but not so much on your feat expenditure. Granted, it's much simpler to get a Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Sense, and Earth Power - but then your recharge is dependent on an item that can be taken from you (and finding a spot of unworked ground).

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-14, 07:15 PM
Also: you'll need Psicrystal Containment (or at least Psionic Meditation) due to the "one round" bit as well (you must expend your focus for Psycarnum Infusion, and must expend your focus to use Midnight Augmentation, and must do both in the space of a single round... and still have time to manifest the power). So it saves on your Essentia, but not so much on your feat expenditure. Granted, it's much simpler to get a Torc of Power Preservation, Earth Sense, and Earth Power - but then your recharge is dependent on an item that can be taken from you (and finding a spot of unworked ground).

That, and the fact that the Torc has been reprinted in MIC to be a crappy 5/day item.

Trekkin
2010-04-14, 07:23 PM
Yes, but that's the magic item compendium. Psionic Torcs of Power Preservation are still in the XPH. :smallwink:

Silly arcanists, item creation is for psions!