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Choco
2010-04-14, 08:31 AM
Well in a few weeks I will for the first time actually be a player in a 4e game, and have decided to go Warforged Fighter. Due to me having practically no experience on the PC end of 4e, I have some n00b questions that need to get out of the way:

1) Would using a 2h weapon and more damaging powers have much of a negative effect on me being the group meatshield?

2) What is the best weapon type to use for a fighter (1h + shield or 2h doesn't matter)? I thought hammers would be cool, but there are all of maybe 2 powers that are boosted by having them equipped.

3) Is it worth dropping a feat to get plate armor?

4) What powers/feats should I choose to make damn sure the enemies focus on me (and don't kill me...)?

5) While Intimidate is a class skill and I get +2 to it from Warforged, will it be of any use at the higher levels with my CHA score likely to never break 12?

Kurald Galain
2010-04-14, 08:47 AM
(1) A little, but not prohibitively so.

(2) Hammers are good with certain feat support, e.g. Hammer Rhythm. Reach with a spear or polearm is a good tactical option, as is sword-and-board for the push effects. Two weapons or two-handed sword are more focused on damage.

(3) Depends. If PHB-only, then yes. If splatbooks like Martial Power are allowed, no, because there are better feats.

(4) Area attacks (such as L7 Come And Get It), because the mark forces enemies to focus on you or pay the price; also, a good choice is to multiclass Ranger for the Disruptive Strike power. To not get killed, have a decent leader in the party.

(5) Depends. Most DMs I know prohibit using it to force surrender in combat (and for that, the answer is "no" anyway because your skill isn't high enough). For regular out-combat skill use, sure. For skill challenges, it's not such a great idea to use it unless you're a charisma-based character.

Faleldir
2010-04-14, 08:48 AM
1) Not at all, as long as you can multi-mark.
2) Hammers are amazing at high levels. Son Of Mercy + Overwhelming Impact is broken.
3) No.
4) I leave this question to more experienced players.
5) You can take Hammer Shock at level 11.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-14, 08:55 AM
Adding to 5), Adventurer's Vault has a belt that lets you use Str instead of Cha for intimidate.

Choco
2010-04-14, 09:21 AM
Thanks for the quick help guys!


Adding to 5), Adventurer's Vault has a belt that lets you use Str instead of Cha for intimidate.

Wow, I am gonna have to pick that up, thanks a lot!

I guess I will use hammers after all, so in that case are the 2h ones like the maul the superior choice, or would there be any benefit to using a warhammer and a shield?

Also, is there any feat or ability that would let me make opportunity attacks with reach weapons against enemies 2 squares away?

And tactics-wise, at low levels is there any way I can force the enemies to focus on me even though I don't have any multi-attack abilities?

The_Pyre
2010-04-14, 09:27 AM
Besides dealing a lot of damage and marking those that survive?

Do you have a build in mind already? If not, Battlerager + Mordenkrad will give you decent DPR and sponginess. The reduced AC might be a problem, but all the tHP will definitely help. Brash Strike will make you a legitimate threat: whoever you hit will want to hit you back if he doesn't want to waste the CA (4-point difference to attack bonus versus targeting anyone else).

Then you pick up Barbarian MC at level 2 and the Hide Armor feat at level 4 to boost your DPR and AC.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-14, 09:33 AM
would there be any benefit to using a warhammer and a shield?
Sure. It's called Tide of Iron. Although you can do without, and just use bull rushes when needed.


Also, is there any feat or ability that would let me make opportunity attacks with reach weapons against enemies 2 squares away?
No, but there is a paragon path that lets you do that.


And tactics-wise, at low levels is there any way I can force the enemies to focus on me even though I don't have any multi-attack abilities?
By standing next to them and blocking the way, basically. Remember that enemies must stop moving when you hit them with an OA.

Mordokai
2010-04-14, 09:40 AM
Sure. It's called Tide of Iron. Although you can do without, and just use bull rushes when needed.

Take Bloodhound Style and you can Slow enemies at-will. Take Overwhelming Impact at level 21 and you can Daze enemies at-will.

Choco
2010-04-14, 09:47 AM
By standing next to them and blocking the way, basically. Remember that enemies must stop moving when you hit them with an OA.

Yeah, thats the main reason I asked about OA's against enemies 2 squares away actually.

As for planned build, I was thinking about alternating between charging and just standing my ground defending the party, eventually going into Warforged Juggernaut. So any advice on what would work well with that?

tcrudisi
2010-04-14, 11:16 AM
1) Would using a 2h weapon and more damaging powers have much of a negative effect on me being the group meatshield?

Yes. A 2h-weapon fighter is best suited as a second tank, not as the primary tank. Can you get by with a 2h fighter as the primary tank? Absolutely. But you better have a good leader.


2) What is the best weapon type to use for a fighter (1h + shield or 2h doesn't matter)? I thought hammers would be cool, but there are all of maybe 2 powers that are boosted by having them equipped.

I'm a big fan of the Deft Hurler Style, especially if you are the only tank. Since you want to use a hammer, grab a Throwing Hammer and a Heavy Shield, then pick up the Cleave at-will and the Deft Hurler Style feat. It will let you use a shield (so a bonus to AC and Reflex) and mark two enemies in one turn with an at-will. It's wonderful for keeping enemies on you, which as a primary tank is what you want to do.

Oh, and to answer the question a bit more: definitely 1h + shield IF you are the primary tank. If there is another defender, feel free to go 2h and lay out some more punishment.


3) Is it worth dropping a feat to get plate armor?

Well, I always want to squeeze in plate armor but never find myself with enough feats. So I guess the best answer is: no. Plate armor is good, it's just a little bit behind several other feats which should be picked up first.


4) What powers/feats should I choose to make damn sure the enemies focus on me (and don't kill me...)?

I already mentioned Deft Hurler Style. Also, never neglect your Expertise feat. If you took Deft Hurler, there's a good chance you've neglected your Wisdom. In that case, go Agile Superiority. Don't let those monsters take OA's from you! Toughness is always nice. And, if your DM lets you use Eberron marks, grab the Mark of Warding and make your mark penalty -3 instead of -2. The monsters will really love you then!


5) While Intimidate is a class skill and I get +2 to it from Warforged, will it be of any use at the higher levels with my CHA score likely to never break 12?

Intimidate is a tough choice. It's both incredibly useful/broken (force monsters to surrender) and horrible (more times than not, it's an auto-fail in a skill challenge) at the same time. As someone above me said, grab the item from AV and you can make it based on your Str instead, then you can put it to some very good use.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, however. I'd rather use my belt slot on other items. It's not a bad choice, it's just not my personal choice when I make a fighter.

Mando Knight
2010-04-14, 12:47 PM
Then you pick up Barbarian MC at level 2 and the Hide Armor feat at level 4 to boost your DPR and AC.

Hide Armor expertise was nerfed heavily. Now it doesn't help Barbarians much more than grabbing Chain proficiency does, and doesn't do anything for a Fighter, since they can negate the penalties from wearing Chain a lot easier than a Barbarian.

If you're going to two-hand as the main Defender, you'll definitely want either Plate proficiency (for the extra AC, even though you lose out on Scale's ridiculous feat support) or switch to the Mordenkrad and Battlerager.

Choco
2010-04-14, 01:38 PM
Good point, it is looking like I will be the only defender so I might want to just go with shields.

On that topic, if I go with STR and CON as my main stats, what is the best way for me to raise my Will and especially Dex (I don't wanna keep taking full damage from breath weapons after all..) defences?

Kurald Galain
2010-04-14, 01:53 PM
On that topic, if I go with STR and CON as my main stats, what is the best way for me to raise my Will and especially Dex (I don't wanna keep taking full damage from breath weapons after all..) defences?
There isn't really a way to do that. Getting a good cloak will boost all three defences other than AC; a handful of expensive items give an additional +1 to one of them. Otherwise, until you get to epic (which gives you +4 for a feat) you're stuck with a low defense.

It's not that big a deal, though, especially not if you have a decent leader, and invest in a bunch of resistances.

tcrudisi
2010-04-14, 05:43 PM
Good point, it is looking like I will be the only defender so I might want to just go with shields.

On that topic, if I go with STR and CON as my main stats, what is the best way for me to raise my Will and especially Dex (I don't wanna keep taking full damage from breath weapons after all..) defences?

What level are you starting and what level do you expect to make it to? Also, why do you want a high Con? If it's for hit points, there are other ways to improve your hit points. If it's for feats, well, that's why you need to figure out a level range you expect to play in. Yeah, critting on 19-20 is nice, but if you aren't going to make it to epic levels, it's mostly a waste.

Using a shield will help your Reflex defense by +2 (assuming heavy shield), but that will only help to keep your Reflex completely out of the gutter if you do not upgrade your Dex or Int as you level up.

Tanngrisnr
2010-04-14, 06:59 PM
Dragon Magazine 385 has a fighter feat that lets you apply your shield bonus to will defense. It may get your will defense out of the gutter considering the +1 warforgeds receive as a racial bonus.

Mando Knight
2010-04-14, 07:04 PM
Also, why do you want a high Con? If it's for hit points, there are other ways to improve your hit points.

Because a Hammer Fighter can have ridiculous synergy with Con, especially if he goes Battlerager.

Choco
2010-04-15, 10:04 AM
Actually after this discussion I think I'll rework the character a bit.

What is the paragon path that lets you make OA's against enemies 2 squares away with reach weapons and where is it from, because I might just go with that. I am thinking about using a polearm of some kind and thus have Wisdom as my secondary stat to boost my OA's, OA range, and Will defense. This will let me take up an entire 5x5 square area for the purposes of getting past me, which will definitely help with the tanking job.

What do y'all think of that plan? Any good?

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 12:58 PM
I'm of the school that Defenders should not have prohibitively high AC. You don't want to get hit constantly, but you don't need to have a far higher AC than the people you are trying to protect. If an enemy has a 20AC defender in his face and a 14AC controller within striking distance that -2 to hit from the mark isn't going to affect his choice. Yes, the fighter will get a free hit in (provided he didn't already spend his immediate action) but if its a high AC enemy like a soldier or a high HP enemy like a Brute (who REALLY wants to go after the guy with the lowest AC) then it is very likely a risk worth taking. You still need to be a viable target vs the rest of the party (accounting for the -2 penalty from a mark).

MCerberus
2010-04-15, 01:03 PM
I'm of the school that Defenders should not have prohibitively high AC. You don't want to get hit constantly, but you don't need to have a far higher AC than the people you are trying to protect. If an enemy has a 20AC defender in his face and a 14AC controller within striking distance that -2 to hit from the mark isn't going to affect his choice. Yes, the fighter will get a free hit in (provided he didn't already spend his immediate action) but if its a high AC enemy like a soldier or a high HP enemy like a Brute (who REALLY wants to go after the guy with the lowest AC) then it is very likely a risk worth taking. You still need to be a viable target vs the rest of the party (accounting for the -2 penalty from a mark).

That's partially the responsibility of the other party members though. Example: wizards use a feat to get leather armor, and also try their hardest not to stand in pain distance.

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 01:41 PM
That's partially the responsibility of the other party members though. Example: wizards use a feat to get leather armor, and also try their hardest not to stand in pain distance.

That's true, but when trying to figure out how much AC your Defender is going to have its a good idea to figure out where everyone else is going to stand.

Choco
2010-04-15, 01:51 PM
That's true, which is why my latest build idea will focus on not letting the enemies get past me.

Speaking of that, a fighters OA's stop enemy movement, but does their movement stop in the square they started out in, or the first square on their desired movement path? For instance if an enemy next to me tried to move away and I hit my OA on him, is he still in the square next to me or did he get 1 away before the movement stopped?

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 01:54 PM
That's true, which is why my latest build idea will focus on not letting the enemies get past me.

Speaking of that, a fighters OA's stop enemy movement, but does their movement stop in the square they started out in, or the first square on their desired movement path? For instance if an enemy next to me tried to move away and I hit my OA on him, is he still in the square next to me or did he get 1 away before the movement stopped?
The movement is provoked before he actually enters the next square so the enemy stops in the square it started in.


I think.

Dekkah
2010-04-15, 02:06 PM
You hit them where they trigger it (which is the square beside you). SO if you connect, tghey stay near you (and they have to either stay there or use an other action (their standard) to move again (which you cant attack again - one OA on each enemy turn).
If you choose to use reach weapon, remember that you only threathen adjacent creatures (unless you have an ability that says otherwise).

Choco
2010-04-15, 02:10 PM
Hmm, this brings up another question. How do you hold the enemy's attention on yourself when you are flanking with a much easier to hit striker?

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 02:21 PM
Hmm, this brings up another question. How do you hold the enemy's attention on yourself when you are flanking with a much easier to hit striker?
An enemy with a fighter marking him on one side and a rogue backstabbing him on the other is in kind of a Kobayashi Maru. Really no matter what happens he's going to get wrecked. The most optimum action on the DM's part might be trying to do as much damage to the squishy striker and taking the melee basic attacks from the fighter. I'm not sure what the fighter can do to attempt to hold the enemy's attention.

MCerberus
2010-04-15, 02:23 PM
Keeping them marked is the obvious things, but you have a lot of control options as a shield Fighter. Knock them down, slide them around, or debuff them (there's a really good level 1 daily that fits this bill).

Your strikers are still going to get hurt though, but at least they don't break like twigs the way controllers do.

tcrudisi
2010-04-15, 02:31 PM
Hmm, this brings up another question. How do you hold the enemy's attention on yourself when you are flanking with a much easier to hit striker?

First, it's a bad idea to try to gimp your own AC just because your allies AC is low. With mark of warding, opponent's you mark will get a -3 penalty to attack anyone else. Plus, the Fighter is incredibly "sticky", so getting past him to your allies is a daunting task. Why? Well, that was what you asked.

You do have one major disadvantage: you can only make one immediate action per round. That's typically no big thing, but it is a limitation (that everyone has).

Now, the advantages. If you mark the foe, they get -2 or -3 to attack anyone else. If they do melee attack your rogue friend, not only are they at -2 or -3, but they also get a nice attack from you as an immediate interrupt. Here's why your high AC is good. Put yourself in the monsters shoes: the Rogue has 5 points less AC, but you'll be at -3 to hit him, so in total you are at +2 to hit the Rogue... but if you do swing at the Rogue, you'll take 8 or 9 points of damage. Is that +10% chance worth 8 or 9 damage?

Okay, so they can shift away. Oh, they can't without taking that same immediate interrupt attack?

Okay, walk away. No? Oh, your OA stops movement? Bummer. Okay, well they can eat the OA, which stops their movement, then spend their standard action charging the Wizard. Congrats. In this case, there are two things to point out: your Wizard should not be close enough to be charged by the monster (especially if his AC is that low... and since AC is based on Int, it should not be). Second, he's getting punished with a highly-accurate opportunity attack from the Fighter.

God forbid that your marked foe try to make a range attack while in melee with you. An immediate interrupt basic attack plus an opportunity attack will rock his world.

So basically, if the target doesn't focus on you, he's at -3 (really, take that feat) and will eat at least one attack from you. That's huge.

Asbestos
2010-04-15, 04:18 PM
So you consider the miss chance of the enemy but not the fighter? As I said, a soldier (who has the AC to risk the free attack) or a brute (who not only has a relatively low attack and wants to go after the lowest AC around but also has the HP to absorb the fighter's attack) will be better off going after the squishy that they have a higher chance to hit! You also need to consider that the fighter with a big, two handed weapon will threaten to do more damage than the fighter with the one handed weapon and the shield when they get to make their free attack.

Angelmaker
2010-04-16, 04:24 AM
Actually after this discussion I think I'll rework the character a bit.

What is the paragon path that lets you make OA's against enemies 2 squares away with reach weapons and where is it from, because I might just go with that. I am thinking about using a polearm of some kind and thus have Wisdom as my secondary stat to boost my OA's, OA range, and Will defense. This will let me take up an entire 5x5 square area for the purposes of getting past me, which will definitely help with the tanking job.

What do y'all think of that plan? Any good?
Polearm master, Martial Power 1, page 31. But beware, Veterans Armor got errataed and the reach power is a daily. :smallsigh: If you really want to to this route, increase your dex to 15 and have a loot at "polearm momentum" and "footwork lure" at will. Combined with "polearm gambit" in paragon, itīs quite juicy.

Also, having a low AC in paragon tier is really going to put the hurt on you. Have at least 1 leader, because with polearm master you are more of a controller than a defender, albeit a relatively tough one.

Also, even with threatening reach 2 ( due to the stance of which you only can have one active ) this goes only for your Attack of opportunity. Your combat superiority power ( AFAIK ) still only has reach 1. ( Which still is good enough more than often. )

And, as has already been pointed out, refrain from powers which are immediate interrupts, since your combat superiority is such an attack.

NeoVid
2010-04-16, 04:49 AM
And having recently made a Warforged myself, I'll tell you one thing:

Get the Command Circlet Level 5 head slot item (which can only be used by Living Constructs) the instant you can manage it. It gives you telepathy 20. Trust me, your party will love you for pulling the Martian Manhunter trick for their combat tactics.

Anasazi
2010-04-16, 05:18 AM
From a different perspective, I'd like to throw a couple things out there if you have the use of the phb3.
Hybrid characters, while new, are not nearly as complicated as people make them out to sound. Infact, in many ways they're more straight forward than straight classes, the problem is people see these options and try to spread out and balance the classes they're trying to hybrid, rather than finding one absolute about the class and making it work even better.
For example, a shadar-kai swordmage/rogue hybrid, would not only do a great deal more damage than a 2h fighter, but also has a greater AC.

I'm currently using a warforged cleric/warden hybrid and its working wonders, the survivability of my tank is probably the highest in my group, this is counting me being in the fray 100% of the time.
Another route is a warlock/battlemind, a melee arcane tank thanks crazy painful on damage also.

You have a ton of options as a defender on how to step forth and provide services to your team well past that of a normal defender if you hybrid. While theres alot of dislike for the hybrid system, judgements about it going around left and right, its something for you to consider, should your GM be a decent one and allow all current material. And again, depending on the route you take, even being completely new to 4e, it can be both very simple and very effective.

Choco
2010-04-16, 08:42 AM
Also, even with threatening reach 2 ( due to the stance of which you only can have one active ) this goes only for your Attack of opportunity. Your combat superiority power ( AFAIK ) still only has reach 1. ( Which still is good enough more than often. )

Ah yes, I actually saw that. One of the Polearm Master abilities is basically the extension of Combat Superiority out to 2 squares.

It does suck that the stance is a daily, but mix that with the action point for extra reach ability, and for one round you can cover a 7x7 square with OA's. That would be EPIC if we ever come across a "hold the bridge" scenario. And it would gather everyone in one spot so the controller can unleash the AoE's...

tcrudisi
2010-04-16, 11:24 AM
So you consider the miss chance of the enemy but not the fighter? As I said, a soldier (who has the AC to risk the free attack) or a brute (who not only has a relatively low attack and wants to go after the lowest AC around but also has the HP to absorb the fighter's attack) will be better off going after the squishy that they have a higher chance to hit! You also need to consider that the fighter with a big, two handed weapon will threaten to do more damage than the fighter with the one handed weapon and the shield when they get to make their free attack.

Let's look at level 6.

Fighter has: level 6 magic weapon (+2), Str 20 (+5), level adjustment (+3), normal proficiency weapon (+2), 1h talent (+1), Versatile Expertise (+1), combat advantage half the time (+1). With Wis 14, that is an extra +2 on OA's.

The normal monster AC is 20 (baseline for AC is monster level +14).

The fighter has +15 vs. the AC 20, or even +17 if it's against an OA. So the Fighter needs to roll a 4 or 6 (depending on combat advantage) or a 2, 4, or 6 (depending on combat advantage and if the attack is an OA). That sounds really, really accurate to me.

In my post, I said 8 or 9 damage. Let's do the math, taking the 5 rolled as the necessary roll. He misses on a 1-4, so there's a 75% chance of hitting and a 5% chance of a crit. Assuming he's using a really crappy 1d6 with a +2 prof. bonus weapon, that still comes out to 1d6+8 (weapon focus). Or, on average: 11.5 damage 75% of the time. On a crit, it becomes 14 + 2d6 (avg. 7), for 21 damage 5% of the time. In total, that's: 11.5*0.75 + 21*0.05 = 9.675.

And once again: that's still not as optimized as I'd make my character. :smalltongue:

You are correct that I should have done the math first.

So the monster has a choice: take 9-10 points of damage with a -3 to attack an ally (a decrease of 15% to his hit chance) or continue to attack the fighter. Even if the fighter has 5 points higher AC than the squishy ally (what are your allies doing to get their AC so low?), in that position, I'd go after the fighter anyway, since the real difference is only 2 and that's not worth eating 9-10 points of damage for at level 6.

Asbestos
2010-04-16, 05:31 PM
1) Would using a 2h weapon and more damaging powers have much of a negative effect on me being the group meatshield?

2) What is the best weapon type to use for a fighter (1h + shield or 2h doesn't matter)? I thought hammers would be cool, but there are all of maybe 2 powers that are boosted by having them equipped.

3) Is it worth dropping a feat to get plate armor?

The fighter needs to have no more than a 2-3 point higher AC than the other party members. Encounters exist to drain the party resources, same level monsters are not really expected to be deadly. These resources are measured in daily abilities (drained in the tough fights) and healing surges and HP (drained in all fights). All the PCs have the same amount of dailies and, effectively, the daily of one PC is as valuable as the same level daily as another. But, all the PCs do not have the same amount of HP or healing surges. The healing resources (or HR as I will call it) of the fighter are rather high while the HR of the controller or striker are rather low. Therefor, the HR of the controller or striker are more valuable to the party than those of the fighter. If any member of the party runs out of HR then the entire party is going to suffer. Most monsters are not expected to live long and should do everything in their power to drain as great a value of party resources as possible. They will not often do this by attacking a marking defender when they have a greater chance to inflict the same damage on a PC with more valuable HR. Generally defenders must choose between AC or damage output, the defender with a lower AC (within 2-3 points of the PCs with more valuable HR so that a marked enemy is faced with equal [or better] chances of getting less-valuable HR vs high-value HR) and a higher damage output (the enemy's HP is drained faster during the defender's round and during its own round, giving it less time to deal damage to the party HR and making the high-value HR a greater risk to go after [since the monster getting hit by a maul will die even sooner than the one getting hit by a warhammer]) will not only draw more fire from monsters (and away from the PCs with the more valuable HR) than the high AC, low damage defender, but they will reduce the total impact of the monsters on the party HR by offing the monsters sooner.

Note that the key isn't having a very low AC or a very high AC, its having an 'optimal' AC relative to the rest of the party and being an 'optimal' defender for the party that you're in.

tcrudisi
2010-04-16, 06:40 PM
The fighter needs to have no more than a 2-3 point higher AC than the other party members. Encounters exist to drain the party resources, same level monsters are not really expected to be deadly. These resources are measured in daily abilities (drained in the tough fights) and healing surges and HP (drained in all fights). All the PCs have the same amount of dailies and, effectively, the daily of one PC is as valuable as the same level daily as another. But, all the PCs do not have the same amount of HP or healing surges. The healing resources (or HR as I will call it) of the fighter are rather high while the HR of the controller or striker are rather low. Therefor, the HR of the controller or striker are more valuable to the party than those of the fighter. If any member of the party runs out of HR then the entire party is going to suffer. Most monsters are not expected to live long and should do everything in their power to drain as great a value of party resources as possible. They will not often do this by attacking a marking defender when they have a greater chance to inflict the same damage on a PC with more valuable HR. Generally defenders must choose between AC or damage output, the defender with a lower AC (within 2-3 points of the PCs with more valuable HR so that a marked enemy is faced with equal [or better] chances of getting less-valuable HR vs high-value HR) and a higher damage output (the enemy's HP is drained faster during the defender's round and during its own round, giving it less time to deal damage to the party HR and making the high-value HR a greater risk to go after [since the monster getting hit by a maul will die even sooner than the one getting hit by a warhammer]) will not only draw more fire from monsters (and away from the PCs with the more valuable HR) than the high AC, low damage defender, but they will reduce the total impact of the monsters on the party HR by offing the monsters sooner.

Note that the key isn't having a very low AC or a very high AC, its having an 'optimal' AC relative to the rest of the party and being an 'optimal' defender for the party that you're in.

Ironically, the math is not with you. Even in the sub-optimal example I gave with a 1d6 damage with +2 prof weapon and 5 points higher AC, I would still do more damage if you were DM'ing.

Look at it this way: I hit for 9.675. Since I mark the target, it will always try to get away from me to hit the squishy low-AC target. So I then hit it for 9.75 again. That means I'm doing ~19 damage at level 6, which is good for a striker! (And note: miss chance is already factored in).

Let's say you've gone all-out for damage and your AC is only 2 points higher than your allies. The target now stays on you (so no combat challenge attack). Your damage is 1d12 + 10. It's even a Fullblade, so we'll factor that in. You hit on a 4. Now, calculations: (16.5 on a hit, which happens 80% of the time, and 22+1d12+2d6 for 35.5 average 5% of the time, which means (.8*16.5)+(.05*35.5)= 14.975). So you do an average amount of ~15 damage in a turn. Not bad at all: but still not as good as the defender who focuses on getting his AC up high.

Ironically, by getting a high AC and using a bad weapon you will be doing more damage. Or the monster can choose to attack you. Yeah, he'll miss a lot more, but then he's not turning the tank into a striker. His choice.

The "defenders should only have +2 or +3 AC more than their allies" mantra is incorrect as that showed. I was even comparing a bad weapon to a good weapon. The difference becomes far more noticeable if I optimize and go for a bastard sword (+3 prof with 1d10 damage, as opposed to +2 prof with 1d6 damage).

Basically OP -- it's a trap to limit your AC. Go ahead and raise your AC through the roof. If you can get it 20 points higher than your allies, you'll still out-damage the fighter who goes with a huge 2h-weapon but doesn't have his mark ignored. And that's what you are supposed to do: put the marked foe in a lose/lose situation. He attacks you and will likely miss or he attacks your ally and takes substantial damage and a -10% or -15% to hit your ally.

Asbestos
2010-04-16, 10:26 PM
Ironically, the math is not with you. Even in the sub-optimal example I gave with a 1d6 damage with +2 prof weapon and 5 points higher AC, I would still do more damage if you were DM'ing.

Look at it this way: I hit for 9.675. Since I mark the target, it will always try to get away from me to hit the squishy low-AC target. So I then hit it for 9.75 again. That means I'm doing ~19 damage at level 6, which is good for a striker! (And note: miss chance is already factored in).

Let's say you've gone all-out for damage and your AC is only 2 points higher than your allies. The target now stays on you (so no combat challenge attack). Your damage is 1d12 + 10. It's even a Fullblade, so we'll factor that in. You hit on a 4. Now, calculations: (16.5 on a hit, which happens 80% of the time, and 22+1d12+2d6 for 35.5 average 5% of the time, which means (.8*16.5)+(.05*35.5)= 14.975). So you do an average amount of ~15 damage in a turn.

Going to cut you off here and add in the obvious your ally is not being attacked and is not getting damaged. In the first situation the ally with the more valuable HR is taking damage in the second the defender with the less valuable HR is taking damage. Guess what, your defender is actually defending and your party is not losing valuable resources!

Also, why is it you assume that the fighter has CA half the time but the monster never does? If the monster can gain CA as much as the fighter then, in the second situation, the ally is only getting attacked when he grants CA and, on average, the two-handed fighter will out damage the sword and board fighter. So, not only is your ally being attacked less but the enemy is dying faster. That seems like much more of a lose/lose situation for the enemy.

tcrudisi
2010-04-17, 08:58 AM
Going to cut you off here and add in the obvious your ally is not being attacked and is not getting damaged. In the first situation the ally with the more valuable HR is taking damage in the second the defender with the less valuable HR is taking damage. Guess what, your defender is actually defending and your party is not losing valuable resources!

Also, why is it you assume that the fighter has CA half the time but the monster never does? If the monster can gain CA as much as the fighter then, in the second situation, the ally is only getting attacked when he grants CA and, on average, the two-handed fighter will out damage the sword and board fighter. So, not only is your ally being attacked less but the enemy is dying faster. That seems like much more of a lose/lose situation for the enemy.

Hmm... here's the thing: having your allies get attacked is not always a bad thing. It allows you to spread damage around the party which further increases the healing surges available. You are doing your job as the defender if you are forcing the monster to either double your damage output or take a 15% penalty to hit your allies. Plus, the defender can still do his job optimally (by your standards) if the fighter has AC of 5+ higher than his allies. Know how? By keeping your ranged allies 7 squares away. If the monster wants to attack them, he'll have to incur an OA, which the Fighter will then hit and stop his movement.

Plus, the monster dies faster if it focuses on your allies since it's turned you into a striker (a striker that makes him miss your allies 15% more of the time).

I've seen the math; I believe D&D combat really boils down to a math game at heart. By having a higher AC, if the monster attacks you, he misses. If he attacks your ally, he dies quickly and still likely misses (thanks to the -15%). Yeah, he's 10% more likely to hit your ally than you, but he knows that if he does, he'll die a round sooner, which actually decreases the overall damage he can do.

Whether the monster has CA does not matter nearly as much. The fighter applies a -2/-3 penalty to the attack of the monster, which is (almost) always a flat -10%/-15% rate (the exception being when the monster would always hit or miss regardless).

Although, if you want to count CA, it's easier to get it against the Fighter than the squishies. Which means that you can effectively lower the Fighter's AC by 2, which makes it 3 higher than the allies: which is the penalty he would take for attacking the allies. So in that case, the Fighter having 5 points higher AC is much better, since CA will make that only +3 and the Fighter mark can be worth -3 with a feat. So you either attack the Fighter or attack the ally and lose a lot of health for no benefit -- which has been your argument anyway, it's just that it's easier for the monsters to get CA against the Fighter than your squishier allies.

Basically, the higher the AC, the better.

Spamotron
2010-04-17, 09:09 AM
I recomend that anyone who is new to defending give this a read. http://community.wizards.com/wiki/dnd:The_Art_of_Defending

Also to give you ideas this build might be worth a look. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/23136073/Tank_(v3.0):_When_Push_Comes_to_..._Daze The synergy between Shield Push and Mobile Challenge is worth noting for any shield Fighter.

Choco
2010-04-18, 04:59 PM
I recomend that anyone who is new to defending give this a read. http://community.wizards.com/wiki/dnd:The_Art_of_Defending

Also to give you ideas this build might be worth a look. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/23136073/Tank_(v3.0):_When_Push_Comes_to_..._Daze The synergy between Shield Push and Mobile Challenge is worth noting for any shield Fighter.

Those are VERY helpful, thanks a lot!