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Yora
2010-04-14, 10:16 AM
What template would be best to create races of humanoids with fiendish ancestry that breed true, like aasimar, tieflings, genasi, or the more specialized tanarruk and fey'ri?

Half-Fiend is supposed to be for individual creatures that are 50% fiend, but what about entire nations of people who have a small amount of demon blood in their ancestry? The fiendish creature template seems a bit too boring for my taste. It just adds damage reduction, spell resistance, and cold and fire resistance, which all just make them live longer before they fall dead.
Any other templates I should take a look at?

vp21ct
2010-04-14, 10:24 AM
I'd look at the big points of the Tiefling race for that. Tieflings have resistance to certain types of damage, and have a few spell like abilities. Most of their skill bonuses come from their being on the fringes of society.

A Charisma penaltie is a given, but then what about the bonuses. I'd say it would depend on what the 'parent' race is. Most likely either Streangth, Con, or Dex, maybe Int.

I know there's a template for a Halfling/tiefling, but I don't know where it can be found.

Sanguine
2010-04-14, 10:27 AM
I'd look at the big points of the Tiefling race for that. Tieflings have resistance to certain types of damage, and have a few spell like abilities. Most of their skill bonuses come from their being on the fringes of society.

A Charisma penaltie is a given, but then what about the bonuses. I'd say it would depend on what the 'parent' race is. Most likely either Streangth, Con, or Dex, maybe Int.

I know there's a template for a Halfling/tiefling, but I don't know where it can be found.

Why is a Charisma penalty a given for people descended from high Charisma creatures?

Flickerdart
2010-04-14, 10:27 AM
Honestly, just take the Tiefling traits and slap them on any race you care to name. It's not like it'll unbalance anything. Also, Fax made a Tiefling template class (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tiefling) for d20r which could be adapted with minimum fuss.

The CHA penalty is because the Tieflings don't have the raw power that comes from being a proper fiend, so they don't have the confidence and force of presence, but they get all the derision and it erodes their self-esteem. Or something.

jokey665
2010-04-14, 10:28 AM
Fax's Tiefling Racial Progression for d20r. (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Tiefling)

Edit: NINJAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

vp21ct
2010-04-14, 10:30 AM
Why is a Charisma penalty a given for people descended from high Charisma creatures?

Devils and Demons have high charisma because of a commanding presence. Tieflings have low charisma because they are the spawn of fiends, most people won't want to ascociate with the spawn of fiends.

To the above, yeah that could work, but what about races like Halflings or Gnomes, wich are small sized?

Yora
2010-04-14, 10:44 AM
The CHA penalty is because the Tieflings don't have the raw power that comes from being a proper fiend, so they don't have the confidence and force of presence, but they get all the derision and it erodes their self-esteem. Or something.
Tieflings are emos. :smallwink:

Sanguine
2010-04-14, 10:48 AM
Devils and Demons have high charisma because of a commanding presence. Tieflings have low charisma because they are the spawn of fiends, most people won't want to ascociate with the spawn of fiends.

To the above, yeah that could work, but what about races like Halflings or Gnomes, wich are small sized?

Except the Player's Handbook states that Charisma isn't just how others perceive you. So the fact that most people won't associate with doesn't justify a Charisma penalty in my mind. Of course the justification for dwarfs having a Charisma penalty isn't much better.

Flickerdart
2010-04-14, 10:52 AM
Devils and Demons have high charisma because of a commanding presence. Tieflings have low charisma because they are the spawn of fiends, most people won't want to ascociate with the spawn of fiends.

To the above, yeah that could work, but what about races like Halflings or Gnomes, wich are small sized?

What about them?

Tiefling Gnome
Small Outsider (Native)
-2 STR, +2 DEX, +2 CON, +2 INT, -2 CHA
LA +1

Tiefling Halfling
Small Outsider (Native)
-2 STR, +4 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CHA
LA +1

Yora
2010-04-14, 10:53 AM
Well, you could say that dwarves just have a hard time adjusting with the common standards of politness and diplomacy. They feel easily offended when there are no bad intentions and also stick to their dwarven standards of what is proper to ask for and what is expected.
In real life you have this with all cultures, but one could say that within the fantasy world, dwarves have especially great problems to cope with it.

Warpwolf16
2010-04-14, 10:55 AM
Devils and Demons have high charisma because of a commanding presence. Tieflings have low charisma because they are the spawn of fiends, most people won't want to ascociate with the spawn of fiends.

To the above, yeah that could work, but what about races like Halflings or Gnomes, wich are small sized?

Book of Vile Darkness has a race of demonic halflings, cant remember the name but yeah.

there is a orc, high elf?, and and a dark dwarf version of the tiefling.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-14, 11:01 AM
Wizards produced a Racial progression class for the Half-Fiend template. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20031010a

Adding the first level of the progression to all of the natives in question would create something slightly stronger than a tiefling, but not as strong as an actual half-fiend. And while you're at it, using additional progression levels can help represent the 'purity' of their fiendish ancestry, all the way to a full half-fiend with all the trimmings.

Yora
2010-04-14, 11:32 AM
I actually like that a lot. Especially with the ability to have different castes of varying demonic strength.
Thanks a lot.

Tengu_temp
2010-04-14, 12:56 PM
Why is a Charisma penalty a given for people descended from high Charisma creatures?

Because, as much as DND likes to talk about how charisma is about force of personality, in most cases in 3.5, ugly race = charisma penalty. The only exceptions, like fiends or mind flayers, have charisma-based racial abilities.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-04-14, 01:13 PM
If Tiefling and Aasimar became LA +1 templates, and can get (for example) human feat and skill points on top of their benefits, would that make them worth LA +1?

Yora
2010-04-14, 01:55 PM
I think make make pretty solid LA +1 templates. As a race it seems like not such a good deal.


Because, as much as DND likes to talk about how charisma is about force of personality, in most cases in 3.5, ugly race = charisma penalty. The only exceptions, like fiends or mind flayers, have charisma-based racial abilities.
Because even most writers don't get this stuff straight. :smallbiggrin:

Set
2010-04-14, 04:09 PM
What template would be best to create races of humanoids with fiendish ancestry that breed true, like aasimar, tieflings, genasi, or the more specialized tanarruk and fey'ri?

If you have a specific character concept in mind, you could just create a custom 'one of a kind' combination of the racial abilities of the base race and some minor traits from the outsider race.

So the gnome whose pappy was a Succubus (in male form, obviously), might have electricity resistance 5, +4 saves vs. poison (instead of the immunities to both that demons traditionally have), and be able to communicate telepathically with any creature that speaks Abyssal within 30 ft. (weaker version of demon telepathy), and +2 Cha, -2 Str, and detect thoughts, disguise self and charm person as SLAs, gaining them as he gains levels / HD (disguise self at 1st level, charm person at 2nd, detect thoughts at 3rd) instead of many of the the 'normal' gnomish abilities. Alternately, perhaps he's got an innate understanding of those three spells, and if he takes any spontaneous arcane spellcasting class, he gains them as bonus spells known (or automatically adds them to his spellbook when he becomes capable of casting spells of those levels, if a prepared caster).

An orc descended from a kyton would have completely different abilities, and probably be a whiz with a spiked chain.

The Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II) might also be pillagable for ideas.

Toxic Avenger
2010-04-14, 04:21 PM
If Tiefling and Aasimar became LA +1 templates, and can get (for example) human feat and skill points on top of their benefits, would that make them worth LA +1?I would say so, and this is what WotC should have done to begin with (whatever they were smoking that day, I don't want it). I find it rather moronic that a half-celestial human is mechanically more human than an aasimar, when it should be the other way around.

Dhavaer
2010-04-14, 04:24 PM
Book of Vile Darkness has a race of demonic halflings, cant remember the name but yeah.

Jerren, though they're just evil, not demonic.

AslanCross
2010-04-14, 04:43 PM
There's also the fiendish template, though that doesn't turn the creature into an outsider.

In Player's Guide to Faerun (or was it Races of Faerun?) they've got the Tanarruk (tiefling orc) and Fey'ri (tiefling elf).

I also found it kind of ironic that the Tieflings get a Cha hit, especially when they have a Bluff bonus. The Aasimar gets a bonus to Spot and Listen, which get boosted further thanks to the Wis bonus.

The Tiefling gets a bonus to Hide and Bluff, so its Dex bonus improves Hide. However, the Cha penalty lowers the Bluff bonus to +1. :P

Maybe they wanted to make Aasimar without penalties so that kids wouldn't say "I CAN PLAY A DEMON? COOL!" and make D&D's reputation worse than it already is. :P

hamishspence
2010-04-14, 04:51 PM
the Cambion race in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits is what you get when you cross a tiefling with a demon.

It has a large LA, and racial hit dice- so it's probably not that good.

Still- it allows you to play a demon. (Outsider, Chaotic & Evil subtype, native to the abyss)

It gets an even bigger Cha penalty than the tiefling (-10, to a minimum of 2, and if this would reduce starting Cha below 2, subtract remaining points from Int instead (minimum 3))

Though you could play the Marquis/Baron Cambion race instead (slightly higher LA, but much better stat adjustments, including +10 to Cha.)

Captain Six
2010-04-14, 05:25 PM
1&2e Charisma represents social wit and how well you get along with others. 4e Charisma represents force of personality and aura of presence. 3e was the transition stage between the two, representing both at once (or rather one of the two randomly chosen) even though it doesn't make sense most of the time.

Yora
2010-04-15, 07:38 AM
3rd Edition was just one writer using poor wording, in my oppinion. But the misconception that Charisma is beauty had been around long before. I once looked Charisma up in the 2nd Ed. PHB and it wasn't worded much better.

In Planescape Tieflings had +1 to Int and Cha, and -1 to Str and Wis. The other stats were mostly the same though.