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~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-14, 11:49 AM
Okay, rereading Archivist, several times mind you, I found nothing special about it in comparison to Cleric. I realise that Arch is the only INT-based divine caster, but it seems limited. I mean, Domains make Cleric great, as does Turn Undead. Archivist seems to lack the awesomesauce that makes Cleric awesome. Even other divine casters trump Archivist. Maybe I'm ignorant or something, but I can't see its advantages....

Yora
2010-04-14, 11:50 AM
Archivist has access to all domains and the spell lists of all divine classes.

vp21ct
2010-04-14, 11:51 AM
That's partly because other Divine casters tend to be broken.

Really, somebody who builds their Cleric or Druid up right is going to absolutely DESTROY everything they fight. Rememer kids, with enough warning, Spamming buffs CAN solve everything.

Caliphbubba
2010-04-14, 11:53 AM
Pretty sure it has to do with being able to potentially get any spell from any list and being able to get spells at lower spell levels than a standard cleric.

Like how Heal is a lower level spell for Adepts than for Clerics, so the he finds an Adept and co-operates with him to make a scroll of it, then puts it in his prayer book and >bamf< Heal as a 4th (?) level spell.

I think this is the jist of it.

Yora
2010-04-14, 11:54 AM
That's partly because other Divine casters tend to be broken.
Fixed. :smallwink:

Apollo1776
2010-04-14, 11:56 AM
Fixed. :smallwink:

How is cleric broken? It is beastly.

jiriku
2010-04-14, 11:57 AM
Okay, rereading Archivist, several times mind you, I found nothing special about it in comparison to Cleric. I realise that Arch is the only INT-based divine caster, but it seems limited. I mean, Domains make Cleric great, as does Turn Undead. Archivist seems to lack the awesomesauce that makes Cleric awesome. Even other divine casters trump Archivist. Maybe I'm ignorant or something, but I can't see its advantages....

Domains don't make clerics great. Neither does turn undead. Spells make clerics great.

Spells make archivists great too.

Yora
2010-04-14, 11:58 AM
My point, clerics are widely regarded as the worst offender.

Eldariel
2010-04-14, 11:59 AM
Basically, with enough work every D&D spell is an Archivist spell. Some of the more obscure sources are like to be forbidden, but even then, you're basically a Wizard with more skill points, bigger HD, divine spell access and then some. That is why Archivists are good; because spells are the single best thing in the game and Archivist just knows every damn one of them.

Druids, Rangers, Paladins, Blackguards, Consecrated Harriers (and every other divine PrC), Adepts, Divine Bards, Alternate Source Spells, etc. mean you have insane amount of sources to draw upon beyond "just" Clerics + Domains (which is already a ton). You can gain Turning through Sacred Exorcist and yeah, Domains you'll miss out on (though Contemplative, Church Inquisitor and such can still grant you half a dozen or so).


It's not better than Cleric. It's equivalent to Cleric. Cleric is among the top tier of D&D classes. As such, Archivist is too. By the way, Dark Knowledge is among the strongest use for Move Actions in the game; that definitely doesn't hurt Archivist's power either. Especially Dread Secret (though naturally, the list of targets is a bit limited but can be expanded with feats).

Also, Archivist Archers are truly fearsome once they get the feats in place due to DMM and all the Cleric Archer tricks combined with all the Ranger archery spells and Wind Tunnel from Druid for a truly fearsome archery skill.

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:02 PM
Archivists came very close to being the only base class banned in Test of Spite for being over-powered. Access to all spells, superb class features, trivially difficult (1 level dip) access to turn undead, int casting. I would disagree with Eld here, and say that Archivist, played well, is better than all but the most extravagantly powerful cleric builds. Even though they weren't banned, they've single-handedly caused a number of our spell-bans, and finally had to be deeply restricted as to what spell lists they could access.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-14, 12:03 PM
Archivists have access to every divine spell. This includes the entire Druid list, the entire Shugenja list, the entire Adept list (Adepts get several Cleric spells at earlier spell levels than Clerics do!), the entire Paladin list (some 4th level Paladin spells are pretty awesome), the entire Ranger list... Not to mention all the ways to craft divine scrolls out of arcane spells...

They're basically Wizards with more spells (and Cleric and Druid spells at that) on top of actual class features. That is why they're broken.

Eldariel
2010-04-14, 12:10 PM
Archivists came very close to being the only base class banned in Test of Spite for being over-powered. Access to all spells, superb class features, trivially difficult (1 level dip) access to turn undead, int casting. I would disagree with Eld here, and say that Archivist, played well, is better than all but the most extravagantly powerful cleric builds. Even though they weren't banned, they've single-handedly caused a number of our spell-bans, and finally had to be deeply restricted as to what spell lists they could access.

Mmm, yes, without restrictions on spell access this is true. With modicum of restriction such as "only" Cleric+Domain+Druid+Ranger+Paladin lists, they are slightly more manageable. Then, at least Cleric can match most of the tricks through Domains; Domains and Turn Undead overall are Cleric's greatest advantage in that they enable some PrC access and feat access more easily than Archivists.

But yeah, you are right, of course. Archivist can even outpower Clerics this side of certain logical extreme.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-14, 12:11 PM
Also, Archivist Archers are truly fearsome once they get the feats in place due to DMM and all the Cleric Archer tricks combined with all the Ranger archery spells and Wind Tunnel from Druid for a truly fearsome archery skill.

Because when you have access to the broadest spell list in the D&D universe, the best use of your actions is to fire sharpened twigs at your enemies. :smallwink:

Ernir
2010-04-14, 12:13 PM
Because when you have access to the broadest spell list in the D&D universe, the best use of your actions is to fire sharpened twigs at your enemies. :smallwink:

Not really, but having the broadest spell list in the D&D universe is probably the most useful tool you can find when you want to fire sharpened twigs at your enemies. :smalltongue:

Eldariel
2010-04-14, 12:15 PM
Because when you have access to the broadest spell list in the D&D universe, the best use of your actions is to fire sharpened twigs at your enemies. :smallwink:

It's mostly that if you want to shoot sharpened twigs at people, it's good to have the broadest spell list in the D&D universe to make it work out.

EDIT: Janni'd

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:15 PM
Not really, but having the broadest spell list in the D&D universe is probably the most useful tool you can find when you want to fire sharpened twigs at your enemies. :smalltongue:

When those sharp twigs auto-hit and auto-crit for 400+ damage and any rider effects you've tucked in with smiting spell and DMM, like say, MDJ? Yeah.
That'll normally do it.

Eldariel
2010-04-14, 12:16 PM
When those sharp twigs auto-hit and auto-crit for 400+ damage and any rider effects you've tucked in with smiting spell and DMM, like say, MDJ? Yeah.
That'll normally do it.

And yeah. That'll be nice.

arguskos
2010-04-14, 12:16 PM
Oh Splinterbolt, you're such an awesome spell. /notreallyrelevantbuttotallytrueanyways :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Is there a way for an Archivist to acquire Summon Mirror Mephit?

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:17 PM
Oh Splinterbolt, you're such an awesome spell. /notreallyrelevantbuttotallytrueanyways :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Is there a way for an Archivist to acquire Summon Mirror Mephit?

Do you want the Dark Revelations version or the Useful At A Table version?

arguskos
2010-04-14, 12:18 PM
Do you want the Dark Revelations version or the Useful At A Table version?
Yes. Stupid tenchar limits.

vp21ct
2010-04-14, 12:18 PM
Fixed. :smallwink:

yeah... yeah...

I guess your right.

That's kindof why I prefer my Clerics to be cloistered. Then they get to share their brokenness.

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 12:21 PM
So, the traditional mechanism for the acquisition of arcane spells as divine is pretty simple and revolves basically around the existence of a dragonsblood pool, and a favored soul of Big B. Somewhere around here there's a "Jakeverse" thread with a walk through.

Another more controversial trick is potentially a geomancer of some convoluted build.

The simplest, however, is just to Miracle for it.

arguskos
2010-04-14, 12:23 PM
Well, the Dragonsblood Pool trick I still am wrapping my brain around (and how poorly done it is). The geomancer is hilarious though.

Also, can Miracle put it straight into your Prayerbook as a divine spell? I'm wondering how they'd get it into their book.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-14, 12:36 PM
I'd expect you could Miracle up a scroll easily enough.

arguskos
2010-04-14, 01:15 PM
I'd expect you could Miracle up a scroll easily enough.
The question though becomes: is there a way to produce a divine version of Summon Mirror Mephit? The Dragonsblood Pool just gets you access to it as an arcane spell... as a divine caster (cause that location is poorly edited). The Geomancer... might? I'm not sure, thus the query to Doc.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-14, 01:17 PM
Okay, so i was wrong, as usual...

Doc Roc
2010-04-14, 01:31 PM
Hmm, well a lot of people suggest that chameleon works, but I don't really hold with that. I'd ask in the ToS thread, the precise normal trick escapes me.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-14, 01:33 PM
How would the Chameleon work? He can prepare any divine spell, but it still needs to be an actual divine spell for him to prepare it...