Need help with Crusader.

[Infernum]

Finally getting around to having a back up character for the game im in and ive decided on crusader. After looking though I realized that I dont know a thing about them. I get how they work mechanically, but not so solid on the concept of who they are and what they do. Also, not sure what kinda feats would help them rock the game.

Any information or wisdom you wish to impart would be appreciated greatly.

[The Rabbler]

a crusader is a tank. crusaders are designed to be the one who takes damage and turns it around on enemies (via his damage pool thing). he has access to the devoted spirit discipline, a discipline created for the sole purpose of being able to fight, take less damage, and heal oneself. and they're good with sword and board.

as for suggestions, I'd pick up a good weapon, a good shield, get a lot of diamond mind maneuvers (to be able to deal some mean damage) and some white raven maneuvers (to get you in position and help allies). many people also say that some of the tiger-discipline maneuvers work nicely for single-weapon users; I havent looked into it personally. as for PrCs, you might want to look into either deepstone sentinel or ruby knight vindicator (both in ToB) or both (if you can). both are solid PrCs that help you out with what you need to do.

if you were looking at crusader to be more of a damage class, you might want to try a warblade or a swordsage. they both are more focused on killing than protecting.

and thats my 2cp.

EDIT: feats. right.

there's a feat somewhere (i think it's called stone power) which lets you take a penalty to your attacks (1-5) and get double that amount as temporary hit points. baisically power attack for temporary hp. also, for more fun, you could pick up some martial study feats and get some of the better maneuvers from Iron Heart (Iron Heart Surge, I'm looking at you). also, crusaders don't naturally get their level 8 stance by their stance progression, so you'll want to get Martial Stance and grab it (Immortal Fortitude: no death by hit point damage. need I say more?).

and if you wanted to, you could spend some feats on weapons. you could get yourself a kaorti resin bastard sword (only takes one feat), get improved critical on it, and laugh as you hit people with 17-20/x4 crits. and the multiplier will multiply the damage from most (if not all) maneuvers you use.

[senrath]

Um, Crusaders don't naturally get access to Diamond Mind. They're restricted to Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon, and White Raven.

Anyway, Crusaders make really awesome lockdown characters. Take the feats Stand Still (instead of taking an AoO, force your opponent to stay where they are), Combat Reflexes. Combine them with Armor Spikes + a Reach Weapon, and the stance Thicket of Blades (gives you an AoO from any kind of movement, even a 5-ft step).

[The Rabbler]

Um, Crusaders don't naturally get access to Diamond Mind.

huh. that would explain why I don't play crusaders. thanks for that. that just means more martial study is needed, though.

[Infernum]

Thanks for the ideas, but i do not believe that Crusaders get access to the Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw schools, the only three they have access to is Devoted Spirit, Stone Dragon and White Raven. As far as using feats to get maneuvers, that could work, but since this is a tank type, why not go for the shield ward feat and get the AC benefit across the board? Take Tower shield or Large shield as your specialized shield and go crazy.

Any other ideas are welcome as well.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the martial powers for crusader.

[senrath]

Crusaders are an odd class, in that excessively high AC is bad for them. You WANT enemies to be hurting you, because that triggers your Furious Counterstrike, amongst other things.

[Infernum]

Indeed a strange concept, yet in the party we currently run with...no combat healers are around so....he would die kinda fast like that. With the shield ward idea, he would only get hurt from the real dangerous opponents and would then use his attacks on them.

A pole arm wielder using that combo of feats must have the Short Haft feat as well right, in order to attack up close?

[senrath]

That's what the Armor Spikes are for. Turns your armor into a weapon.

And the Crusader gets a decent number of healing maneuvers as part of Devoted Spirit.

[Infernum]

Also, what book is Stand Still in?

[senrath]

Oddly enough, Expanded Psionics Handbook, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with Psionics. It's also found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill) in the SRD.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

For race, I'd go with a Dvati from Dragon Compendium and/or the Mineral Warrior (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e) template. A Mineral Warrior's skin appears to be stone paved upon his form. Their DR, Con bonus, and natural armor make them superb tanks, or help to make an already tanky character virtually unkillable.

Dvati are twins who share a soul, it's basically one character in two bodies. They have identical ability scores, skills, feats, and class levels, and share a single XP total. They share limited-use special abilities, such as spells/day, number of smite attacks, and available maneuvers. One twin could use Vanguard Strike, and the other could benefit from the +4 to hit when he attacks. If one gets hit, he can use Stone Power on his next turn while the other uses a Crusader Strike to heal him. The two could even benefit from the feat Phalanx Fighting in CW. The only real drawback to making a Dvati character other than the +1 LA is the fact that you'll need to buy twice as much gear. Get a feat like Dreadful Wrath and both twins will have a fear aura, and/or get max ranks in Intimidate with the Never Outnumbered skill trick and Imperious Command from Drow of the Underdark. If both twins demoralize a foe they'll go from shaken to frightened, or each can demoralize an already shaken foe to make them become frightened, or with Imperious Command they'll cower for a round and be frightened the round after, or with never outnumbered they can make an entire encounter cower for a round and then run frightened on the following round.

If you don't make a Dvati, consider a Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b&page=1) Water Orc (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#racesOfWater), which could also benefit from Mineral Warrior. Take Entangling Exhalation from Races of the Dragon and use an entangling breath attack as often as possible to keep the entire encounter debuffed. Use a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes, and the slowed opponents won't be as likely to move past you to strike at your softer teammates.

I would focus on Stone Dragon strikes for damage, and Devoted Spirit for healing and reactive maneuvers. You can only use Stone Power with a non-maneuver attack or full attack, or with a stone dragon strike, so keep that in mind if you're taking damage. That's part of why I like Dvati Crusaders so much, they can heal and use counters for each other.

[Infernum]

Great concept there Biffoniacus_Furiou, but our DM doesnt really allow such out there things like Water Orcs and the like. Basic PHB and a couple of other races are allowed, and he would only be 6th level, not to mention that I can use templates, DM ruling.

As of the moment, a Plate wearing Lucerne Hammer wielding short haft having shield totting battle turtle. Hammer could be traded out fro war hammer. Might go with a level of cleric for the Divine Spirit Feat.

Any more ideas?

[Escheton]

If you dont like the way that crusaders get their maneuvers, you could dip warblade before hitting the prestige. Then use warblade as the prestigeclass initiator, and get devoted maneuvers that can recharge with a full attack...
also, the crusader maneuver that you picked, you get on the side, massive choices that way and always have the maneuvers you need.
Recharge the concentration to saves every other round if needed.
Still have plenty of healing strikes and stuff at random...

[Infernum]

Interesting idea for the warblade dip...but probably gonna straight Crusader this guy. Now which school to focus in. Stone Dragon is a damage king, while devoted spirit is a utility healing school, and white raven is the buffer school.

Any thoughts there Gentlemen, and ladies?

[Frosty]

The ToB prestige classes that advance Initiator Level advances ALL of your Initiator levels. Remember that. It is a good thing.

[senrath]

I usually pick up a few from each school, leaning most heavily on Stone Dragon for the damage.

Also, make sure to pick up White Raven Tactics. It's a very nice maneuver.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Great concept there Biffoniacus_Furiou, but our DM doesnt really allow such out there things like Water Orcs and the like. Basic PHB and a couple of other races are allowed, and he would only be 6th level, not to mention that I can use templates, DM ruling.

As of the moment, a Plate wearing Lucerne Hammer wielding short haft having shield totting battle turtle. Hammer could be traded out fro war hammer. Might go with a level of cleric for the Divine Spirit Feat.

Any more ideas?Would Warforged be one of those playable races? At early levels, Warforged Crusader with Adamantine Body and Stone Power is very, very tough.

[Infernum]

Alas, no. Our DM detests Warforged, thinks they dont make sense and are kinda broken at low levels.

[Escheton]

The ToB prestige classes that advance Initiator Level advances ALL of your Initiator levels. Remember that. It is a good thing.

the way I read it you have to choose
rereading it with that in mind howver reveals the spellcasting ones having a line saying you have to choose if you have more then one source of spells, the initiator part has no such line...

dude, thank you so friggin much, I have some major tweakage to do

on that note though. say you have both warblade and crusader for a jade phoenix or ruby knight.
Does that mean you can pick and choose where you get the maneuvers known and readied or must choose one.
Or get it on both lines...
Confused here, any thoughts?

also, can you take a maneuver twice that way, one for the crusader side and another for the warblade side?
2 revitalizing strikes in a row and 1 every time after a full attack sounds sweet

and how would maneuver prereqs work?
if yiu have enough maneuvers in any line it counts towards total or do you need the prereq number in the class you want the higher lvl maneuver for?
this is getting complicated

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You eat damage for breakfast. Then spit it back out at your opponents. That's what a Crusader does.

First, let's look at feat choices:

Stone Power. Kinda like Power Attack, but different. Take -5 to attack for +10 temporary hit points this round. That's 10 free damage you aren't taking every round.

Shards of Granite. Tactical maneuver, but the important piece is ignoring DR. Since you are using Stone Power every round anyways, you get to ignore it for effectively free. It doesn't matter what type of DR it is, you bypass it completely. Go ahead, put the smack down on Big T. You ignore his DR/Epic.

Power Attack -> Shock Trooper. Remember, you want to be hit. This lets that be a given. Plus, you do a whole lot damage.

Clarion Call. This is the White Raven Tactical Feat. It's got a feat prerequisite, but it kinds sucks. This is primarily useful for your Rogue buddies, because it lets you Declare an opponent Flanked for 1 minute with a flat DC 20 Intimidate check. Basically, if you have guys who depend on Sneak Attack for damage output, this makes you their best friend. Otherwise, not worth it.

Karmic Strike/Robilar's Gambit. Because you want them to hit you. So hit them back when they hit you. Then hit them harder.

Now let us look at stance choices:

Thicket of Blades: Your movement provokes an AoO. Yes, even a 5' step. This is good for an AoO build using Spiked Chain Lockdown methodologies.

Or

You can get a stance that heals you 2 points every time you hit an opponent.

Those are your two best entry-level stances.

[Eldariel]

Thicket of Blades: Your movement provokes an AoO. Yes, even a 5' step. This is good for an AoO build using Spiked Chain Lockdown methodologies.

Or

You can get a stance that heals you 2 points every time you hit an opponent.

Those are your two best entry-level stances.

Leading the Charge from White Raven is also an amazing stance, though it really picks off later as your Initiator Level grows; it's the trick to dealing real damage on charges without any feat investment.

[Person_Man]

You have 3 basic options:

Tank: Martial Spirit, Shape Soulmeld (Astral Vembraces), Warforged (with Adamantine Body), Steely Resolve, Stone Power, and a mix of healing and DR granting maneuvers (Devoted Spirit and Stone Dragon). These options become increasingly irrelevant at mid-high levels because none of them scale high enough (DR goes to about 4-8ish and can be bypassed, Stone Power tops out at 10 hit points per round, etc).

Damage Dealer: Your basic Power Attack + Shock Trooper + etc combo works fine. Just be sure to use maneuvers that allow you to Charge and/or make a full attack. You do have some high damage maneuvers which stand on their own, but due to the random nature of your maneuver choices, they're not a dependable. Note that this choice doesn't synergize very well with tanking for the Crusader - you need to choose between Power Attack and Stone Power, dumping your AC with Shock Trooper or keeping it high to prevent damage, making a full attack or using a Standard Action Strike that grants healing or DR, and so on. Also note that this choice really doesn't start to work until at least 6-9th level, which is the earliest you can get Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Headlong Rush, etc.

Battlefield Control: Pick up a reach weapon, and focus on making sure that your allies are in the right place and your enemies aren't. Take a serious look at Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, Stand Still, Improved Trip, and Stone Dragon manuevers which prevent enemy movement. Team up with a friend who can summon (Animate Objects FTW) and use White Raven, a lot. Note that this option tends to be best at high levels against enemies you can't kill in one round.


So to summarize:

Levels 1-6ish: Tank
Levels 6+: Damage Dealer with Battlefield Control mixed in.
Levels 12+: Battlefield Control with Tank or Damage Dealing mixed in.

[Roderick_BR]

Indeed a strange concept, yet in the party we currently run with...no combat healers are around so....he would die kinda fast like that. With the shield ward idea, he would only get hurt from the real dangerous opponents and would then use his attacks on them.

A pole arm wielder using that combo of feats must have the Short Haft feat as well right, in order to attack up close?
That's why you take Stone Power. If your delayed damage pool starts to fill out, you get some temporary HP the next round, and let it soak the damage (after using the furious counter strike so it won't go to waste). The only annoying thing is keeping track of what damage you took when, since it only hurts you in the end of your next action (that would be the immediate round after an enemy hurt you).