The Vestiges Themselves...

[Roc Ness]

Have the binder vestiges ever been statted anywhere by anyone? (Not statted as vestiges, but statted as what they were once, before they became weird homeless spirits.)

If they haven't been statted before, how would one go about statting them? What would their stats be? :smallconfused:

[kamikasei]

a) Isn't that kind of missing the point?

b) If you just wanted to stat out Vestige X as it would have been at a certain point in its (possibly apocryphal) story from the book, you'd have to do it on a case-by-case basis - they'd vary enormously and have essentially no common elements.

I'm sure there exist stats for, say, Acererak and Tenebrous somewhere. Might not be official ones for 3.5, though.

But really, why would you want to do this? Time travel? Vision quests?

[Eldan]

At least those which were old DnD villains should be statted, though most likely in AD&D only. As far as I know, that includes at least Tenebrous, Karsus and Acererak.

[hamishspence]

Geryon was statted in the BoVD web enhancement.

Kas and Primus are listed as vestiges in Dragon Magazine, and given binding rules. Were they ever statted out in earlier editions?

[Optimystik]

Once they become Vestiges, they can only interact with reality via Binders and a handful of monsters. Kamikasei is right, stats at that point would be meaningless.

[hamishspence]

He said:


Have the binder vestiges ever been statted anywhere by anyone? (Not statted as vestiges, but statted as what they were once, before they became weird homeless spirits.)

Maybe its a case of wanting to play a game set shortly prior to one of these characters becoming a vestige.

[Optimystik]

Didn't they all become vestiges at vastly different times though? Desharis and Arete probably became vestiges long before Karsus and Acererak, for instance.

[Roc Ness]

a) Isn't that kind of missing the point?
What do you mean? :smallconfused:


b) If you just wanted to stat out Vestige X as it would have been at a certain point in its (possibly apocryphal) story from the book, you'd have to do it on a case-by-case basis - they'd vary enormously and have essentially no common elements.

I'm sure there exist stats for, say, Acererak and Tenebrous somewhere. Might not be official ones for 3.5, though.
I was hoping stats existed so I wouldn't need to try creating them on a case-by-case basis.


But really, why would you want to do this? Time travel? Vision quests?

I was thinking of creating a campaign which revolves around a Binder/Ur-Priest who accidently stole way more power from the gods than she intended/expected, basicly giving her the power to create and destroy, and other nifty salient divine powers. (And incidently crippling the real gods (focus point))

I figured it would be interesting if she decided to recreate the vestiges as individuals under her will, minibosses/minions to do her bidding. So I was wondering if someone had already had a similar idea, or, as you suggested, wanted a time-travel/visionary something or other, and had already statted out the vestiges.


I think the last bit addressed most of the concern for everyone else. Sorry that the wording was confusing, I just can't think of a better way to stress that I'm trying to find stats for flesh and blood things...

[kamikasei]

What do you mean? :smallconfused:

The interesting thing about the vestiges is their stories, not their stats. I don't see why one would want statted-out versions even of their pre-vestige selves, because a game that needs to give them stats would pretty much have to treat them according to their roles in the story - their original selves wouldn't really matter. (As in, if you fight Paimon in a dream or something, what's important is that the monster representing him be fitting to what he symbolizes and to the story of his vestigehood, not that it be a plausible build for the character of Paimon.)

So far as I know, no one else has done what you're looking for before, because it'd be a very specific sort of game that'd require them.

[Roc Ness]

Hmm. I was drawn to using the vestiges as minions through their stories. I figured something as mysterious as those stories would be easily recognisable by potential players, and a few of their characters as well.

As for the stats, its the original selves that matter. The story is flexible and can be molded to fit the character. So Paimon would still the guy who was good at dancing and fencing and had all his arms and legs cut off and replaced with blades, he'd just have somebody who gives him tasks akin to suggestion, i.e., tasks that don't go against Paimon's fundamental nature.

When the PCs fight Paimon, they will be fighting Paimon. What I need exactly is that monster representing him, what he symbolises, and what he actually, physically is. I just figured using a plausible build would be much easier than trying to create every ability from scratch, or trying to pull numbers out of the air.


Also, I'm surprised noone has done this already. What with general great reception vestiges got, and the possibilities they present...

[Thurbane]

@naysayers: Someone has asked for something in a thread. Unless you are privvy to his group, does it matter particularly why he has asked for them?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...indeed, some of the beings who are now vestiges have been statted out in their pre-vestige forms in various sources...as pointed out above (Tenebrous, Acererak, Geryon & Primus). Was Karsus around prior to ToM?

Most, though, were created specifically as vestiges, and have no official "pre-vestige" stats (or even unofficial as far as I'm aware). It would be an interesting community project to stat them out as they once were. When I have some spare time, I might take a stab at a couple...are you going for any CR in particular?

[Eldan]

Acererak would be one of the easiest ones to find 3.5 stats for, I imagine: he should be in the new Tomb of Horrors.

Kas... well, he's probably just a vampire fighter.

Tenebrous is problematic: he's a god, and a powerful one at that, and he had the Last Word, which allowed him to kill any other creature he wanted, including several other deities.

Karsus is an epic Archmage. There was an epic prestige class for netherese mages floating around somewhere on the net.


Primus was a greater god, and a unique modron. I think they are outsiders with living construct traits or some similarly complicated thing in 3rd edition.

[The Rose Dragon]

Was Karsus around prior to ToM?

He was the reason spells of 10th+ levels were banned in Forgotten Realms, so yes, he was.

[hamishspence]

Was Karsus around prior to ToM?

He might have been in the 2nd ed Netheril sourcebook. I think there may have been stats for the spell Karsus's Avatar as well- which killed Mystryl.

It's been a while since I read the free download of it from the WoTC site though- and it may be no longer there.

[SilverStar]

Karsus is an epic Archmage. There was an epic prestige class for netherese mages floating around somewhere on the net.


Netherese Arcanist sucks- don't do that to him. :smallfrown: I want to say it's from the PGtF if you want a look, though.

[Sinfire Titan]

Ashalardon was stated out a while ago in 3.0, IIRC. The module where you ruin him.

[hamishspence]

Netherese Arcanist sucks- don't do that to him. :smallfrown: I want to say it's from the PGtF if you want a look, though.

Didn't they errata it so it gets full casting? As I recall, ones subsequently statted out (such as Aumvor the Undying in Champions of Ruin) have levels in the PRC count for caster level purposes.

[SilverStar]

Yeah, but backlash resistance 5 isn't exactly great, nor is being forced to specialize in the types of epic spells you cast.

At least, I don't think so.

Elven High Mage (with full casting) is better.

[JasonP]

Tenebrous is statted out in his original form as Orcus in Fiendish Codex I as well as many other demon lords whose stats you may be able to use for some of the vestiges if you needed the stats on the spot.

[arguskos]

Acererak was statted out in the 2e module, Return To the Tomb of Horrors.

Dahlvar-Nar was just a priest, though a powerful one. He was never officially statted in any source I know of however.

Geryon was never officially statted, but was an archdevil, and so could be extrapolated.

Karsus was, IIRC, a 33rd level mage. I recall his stats in a 2e sourcebook about the fall of the weave.

Tenebrous was never statted, since it was pointless to do so (he possessed the Last Word, which no longer exists btw, and could slaughter gods).

Ashardalon is statted in the Bastion of Broken Souls module.

Kas was never statted, but would be a supremely powerful vampire fighter.

Primus was never statted either, but is a massively powerful unique modron, akin to an archdevil in power.

The remaining vestiges were never statted, since they didn't exist until Tome of Magic.

[hamishspence]

Elven High Mage (with full casting) is better.

Sadly, Lost Empires of Faerun clarifies (on page 44) that Elven High Mages only get half-casting- caster level advances every two levels in the PRC.

Strictly speaking, Races of Faerun said the same thing.



Tenebrous was never statted, since it was pointless to do so (he possessed the Last Word, which no longer exists btw, and could slaughter gods).


Dungeon Magazine stats out a 3.5 updated version of the BoVD Orcus (or an advanced version of the FC1 Orcus, which was more an aspect than a full demon lord). It has a much weaker version of The Last Word.

[SilverStar]

I could have sworn that there was errata somewhere that gave it full casting- it could have been a variant, or it could be just our group's houserule (there is only one good epic prestige class and it sure ain't a casting class)....

[arguskos]

Dungeon Magazine stats out a 3.5 updated version of the BoVD Orcus (or an advanced version of the FC1 Orcus, which was more an aspect than a full demon lord). It has a much weaker version of The Last Word.
The Last Word has been clarified a few times to have been permanently destroyed. That stat block must have been before the Last Word was destroyed. Also, what Dungeon was it?

[Akal Saris]

Acererak would be one of the easiest ones to find 3.5 stats for, I imagine: he should be in the new Tomb of Horrors.


You'd think that, wouldn't you??? Muahahaha!

[arguskos]

You'd think that, wouldn't you??? Muahahaha!
It always amuses me when folk fail to check the story of Acererak. It's pretty famous and well-known now, and yet, folks still make the mistake. That old demilich was a clever bastard, no doubting it. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

I could have sworn that there was errata somewhere that gave it full casting- it could have been a variant, or it could be just our group's houserule (there is only one good epic prestige class and it sure ain't a casting class)....

Actually, Agent Retriever and Planar Descryer are both quite fine.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

I've always wondered about Ashardalon m'self personally...

[viking vince]

Primus was never statted either, but is a massively powerful unique modron, akin to an archdevil in power.

Correction: Primus was statted in 1e MM2

[arguskos]

Correction: Primus was statted in 1e MM2
Was he? Right, I do recall now. Those stats are so very removed from the current day though, it'd be tough to update for 3.5, but yeah, you're right.

[SilverStar]

Actually, Agent Retriever and Planar Descryer are both quite fine.

Agent Retriever is meh.
Cosmic Descryer is useful for one stinking ability (okay, Holy Word'ing things to death is good enough).

I was referring to the Void Incarnate.

[Devils_Blind]

The remaining vestiges were never statted, since they didn't exist until Tome of Magic.

They've actually "existed" since the 17th century, at least. Just not in D&D.

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demon_goetia.asp

Names, seals, and most of the back stories are pulled from the Lesser Key of Solomon. A number of the lords of the nine are too. That may not be particularly relevant, but it might give the OP some ideas.

[arguskos]

They've actually "existed" since the 17th century, at least. Just not in D&D.

http://www.deliriumsrealm.com/delirium/demon_goetia.asp

Names, seals, and most of the back stories are pulled from the Lesser Key of Solomon. A number of the lords of the nine are too. That may not be particularly relevant, but it might give the OP some ideas.
Well, yes, I know that, but I am coming at the topic from a historical D&D perspective. If we wished to trace the origins of everything in D&D back to actual mythological and historical roots, we'll be here until hell freezes over (or in the case of Cania/Stygia, melts).

[Smeggedoff]

Keeping with the subject of Vestiges for a moment but veering ever so slightly off topic.

Can you bind a Vestige while in Sigil?

[arguskos]

Keeping with the subject of Vestiges for a moment but veering ever so slightly off topic.

Can you bind a Vestige while in Sigil?
Yes. Sigil has no restriction on arcane magic, nor on psionics. There is no reason to believe the wards on Sigil prevent binding from taking place, nor any indication that the Lady would care.

[Eldan]

It does, actually. You can't summon, gate or call creatures into Sigil, and you can't use any form of other planar transportation to get in or out. Depending on your interpretation of vestiges, that could make them impossible.

[arguskos]

It does, actually. You can't summon, gate or call creatures into Sigil, and you can't use any form of other planar transportation to get in or out. Depending on your interpretation of vestiges, that could make them impossible.
It's clarified that binding is none of the above, meaning the wards would not interfere. Now, I COULD see the argument that since several vestiges were once gods (or very close to it), the Lady may mind because of that, but technically, binding is not a summoning or calling effect, and thus ignores the wards.

[Eldan]

Well, since it's an AD&D source, the exact 3rd edition key words weren't used. So, I guess, it just refers to bringing anything into Sigil without using the portals. The question is if the Vestige is actually brought in. At least the image in the summoning circle is only an image.

[Starbuck_II]

Yes. Sigil has no restriction on arcane magic, nor on psionics. There is no reason to believe the wards on Sigil prevent binding from taking place, nor any indication that the Lady would care.

Vestiges are immune to all spells pg 17 Tome of Magic (antimagic field is only exception).

[arguskos]

Well, since it's an AD&D source, the exact 3rd edition key words weren't used. So, I guess, it just refers to bringing anything into Sigil without using the portals. The question is if the Vestige is actually brought in. At least the image in the summoning circle is only an image.
Given that the vestige itself never leaves whatever realm it exists in now, I'd still say that you can perform binding in Sigil.

[Roc Ness]

List of Books & vestiges

Anyway, back to the topic at hand...indeed, some of the beings who are now vestiges have been statted out in their pre-vestige forms in various sources...as pointed out above (Tenebrous, Acererak, Geryon & Primus). Was Karsus around prior to ToM?

Most, though, were created specifically as vestiges, and have no official "pre-vestige" stats (or even unofficial as far as I'm aware). It would be an interesting community project to stat them out as they once were. When I have some spare time, I might take a stab at a couple...are you going for any CR in particular?

Well, the problem for me is that I don't have any of the sources... Thanks if you really are gonna take a stab at them, any CR you feel is appropriate is good.

[arguskos]

Well, the problem for me is that I don't have any of the sources... Thanks if you really are gonna take a stab at them, any CR you feel is appropriate is good.
Hmm... perhaps I will take a stab at this. My last major critter project went over well, I might give this one a stab. No guarantees, but I might.

[Swooper]

You might try PMing SilverClawShift about it. I recall a quite epic campaign journal she wrote on these boards which heavily involved binders and vestiges - I think her DM at least statted out Paimon and maybe a few others.

[Roc Ness]

Thanks man! In the meantime I'm gonna find some purposes for some of the more mysterious vestiges. :smallbiggrin:

[Roc Ness]

You might try PMing SilverClawShift about it. I recall a quite epic campaign journal she wrote on these boards which heavily involved binders and vestiges - I think her DM at least statted out Paimon and maybe a few others.

That's where I got my interest in Vestiges from. :smallbiggrin: I just never investigated them until now.

[Thurbane]

Kas was never statted, but would be a supremely powerful vampire fighter.
You could use the stats (or a modified version) for The Black Duke from MMV (p.190)...although Kas may have been more powerful.

Primus was never statted either, but is a massively powerful unique modron, akin to an archdevil in power.
He was in the original MM2 (1E). Here's a fan made 3.0 version: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/modron/primus.htm

From the same source, 3.0 Geryon: http://www.enworld.org/cc/converted/outsider/devil/geryon.htm

[golem1972]

I think it's important to decide a few things first.

The vestiges are to be mini-bosses, what level would the PC's meet each mini-boss? And, how challenging do you want each vestige encounter to be?

Example: Acerak could be encountered as a fully statted out epic demilich for a high epic party, or he could be a young wizard just a couple of levels above (or below) a low level party.

Example: Kas could be a plain fighter, a fighter / paladin (or blackguard), vampire, or vampire lord (spellstitched) / Legacy Champion (Sword of Kas of course).

Example: Dalver-Nar could be a Cleric, or Binder / Ur-Priest. Levels and PrC's to reach your CR.

It's up to you to decide what power level you want, and which vestiges you want to stat out. If you can do that, it's much easier for the playgrounders to stat them out. I think that even I could stat out a CR5 wizard named Acerak.

[Akal Saris]

I statted out a homebrew vestige a few days ago as part of a challenge, oddly enough.

[Eldan]

Geryon should also be in the Gates of Hell, over on Dicefreaks.

[arguskos]

Geryon should also be in the Gates of Hell, over on Dicefreaks.
Many, many, MANY things are over on Dicefreaks, and they're all insanely powerful, cause that's how Dicefreaks does stuff. :smallamused:

Also, Akal, would you mind sharing your vestige with me via PM? I'd love to see it.