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Yora
2010-04-15, 08:42 AM
What can you tell me about this setting?

I've heard many times that it is supposed to be really good. But I can't seem to find anything about the setting online. All you get is the product description from the backcover that doesn't say much except "we're super realistic!"

So, what's that world about and what makes it different from generic fantasy world #81?

KillianHawkeye
2010-04-15, 09:10 AM
Isn't that the setting that has the dreaded Aquatic Tarrasque??

EDIT: Sorry for not having any useful information. :smallsigh:

hamlet
2010-04-15, 10:03 AM
Can't have looked very hard online for info if you missed the very active publisher's website just loaded with info and forums full of active and devoted gamers who love the setting.

You can go here for basic info on products and upcoming stuff: http://www.kenzerco.com

I recommend a visit to the forums. There's also a PDF copy of the campaign setting and Atlas available, fully compatible with D&D 4.0.

For more info, including a basic "current state" of the setting, go here: http://www.kenzerco.com/Orpg/kalamar/nhighlights.php

I highly recommend the setting.

Yora
2010-04-15, 10:21 AM
But seriously, these are the highlights?

1. A logical, realistic topography. Deserts, mountains, rivers, lakes and forest are all where they belong.
Read: "It's very detailed!"
Never noticed that to be a problem of other settings.

2. A setting driven by the actions of ordinary men. Thus even a low-level PC can have a profound effect on the world and shape the history with his actions.
Okay, so it's a low-level setting, but it's not as if that's something special.

3. The wide variety of races have an extensively detailed history and background, starting from their original migration to the main continent and continuing through the present year. This makes character background easy and interesting to create.
Read: "It's very detailed!"

4. The political entities have a similarly detailed background history.Each governmental body is fully described with their history of war and peace. Thus it is easy to work large military and political conflicts into your campaign.
Read: "It's very detailed!"

5. The world of Tellene contains every type of terrain or obstacle you could desire, and thus a wide variety of locations in which to base your campaign.
Read: "It's very detailed!"

6. The setting is neither under-populated nor over-populated. Monsters and fantastical creatures exist, but they are not so numerous that they begin tripping over each other.
Read: "We took great care with details!"

7. Nothing happens without a logical reason. The explanation is never "that's just the way it is," or "it's magic - it doesn't have to make sense."
Never have seen any setting that does or in which this would have been a problem. But "it's very detailed!"

8. The Kingdoms of Kalamar is an extensively supported campaign setting. Currently, we have the Campaign Setting...
Like virtually every other commercially published setting.

9. The book contains a large, full color map and hex overlay to accurately measure distance and travel time.
See #8.

10. Kalamar is an official Dungeons and Dragons product, not d20, and therefore is official third edition material, like D&D product from Wizards of the Coast. As well as being edited and reviewed by Kenzer and Company staff, all art and text is also reviewed by WotC in several stages to ensure compatibility.
So what? They think this means it's high quality?

And it's like that with every description they ever give about their setting.
http://www.kenzerco.com/index.php?cPath=25_28
http://flamesrising.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=58027

And here some summaries and reviews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9533.phtml
http://www.rpgnews.com/rpg-news/kingdoms-of-kalamar-4th-edition-campaign-setting/
http://notagrog.blogspot.com/2010/02/kingdoms-of-kalamar.html

Nothing that tells us anything what the setting is about. Just that it's very good quality and very detailed.

Calmar
2010-04-15, 10:36 AM
Do you seek arguments why it might be a bad setting? :smallconfused:

Cuaqchi
2010-04-15, 10:38 AM
It is actually really hard to explain the world. The best way would probably be to say that the world wants to kill you; multi-templated bad guys, cheap knock-off magic items, and political intrigue to levels that anyone not interested in the more Machevellian aspects of society would find nauseating.

I am actually playing in a Kalamar game elsewhere on the interwebs and the one thing we have learned is that allies are only those who do not outwardly wish for you to die... :smallannoyed:

Yora
2010-04-15, 10:39 AM
No, I want to know why people think it's a great setting and if I should look into it.

But the more descriptions and reviews I can find, it increasingly seems like it's a very detailed description of six very generic human kingdoms.
Still, if someone who likes the setting would could tell me what things make it great and interesting, I really would like to hear about it.

FishAreWet
2010-04-15, 10:39 AM
Honestly I've read the Player's Guide and thought it was intensely boring. My least favorite 3.5 setting I've ever read. Just nothing there to interest me.

hamlet
2010-04-15, 10:41 AM
But seriously, these are the highlights?

Read: "It's very detailed!"
Never noticed that to be a problem of other settings.

Okay, so it's a low-level setting, but it's not as if that's something special.

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "It's very detailed!"

Read: "We took great care with details!"



So, you read only the very first page and called it done? Did you miss the links below that actually start providing setting information?

Yes, sensible detail is, in fact, a major draw unlike Forgotten Realms orgy of nonsensicle and oft conflicting madness. Or did we miss the glacier sitting in the middle of a desert?




Never have seen any setting that does or in which this would have been a problem. But "it's very detailed!"

I must assume you are joking. Again, I direct you to the Realms and pretty much every world shattering event that was vomited forth upon it.



Like virtually every other commercially published setting.


Or not. There are a great many published settings (the Realms, Eberron, Greyhawk at times) that look as if they were mapped with a third grader's understanding of geography and cartography. Kalamar actually makes sense from that perspective.



See #8.


You might actually want to look at the Atlas before you say that. It is an intensly beautiful book.




So what? They think this means it's high quality?


No, that was specifically inserted during the absurd glut of D20 products of . . . questionable quality, and during the fad where "official D&D product" carried a lot of weight. More than it shoudl have. It was intended as a draw for 3.x fans.




And here some summaries and reviews:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://dnd.wikia.com/wiki/Kingdoms_of_Kalamar
http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/9/9533.phtml
http://www.rpgnews.com/rpg-news/kingdoms-of-kalamar-4th-edition-campaign-setting/
http://notagrog.blogspot.com/2010/02/kingdoms-of-kalamar.html

Nothing that tells us anything what the setting is about. Just that it's very good quality and very detailed.

Don't quote my own review at me. I know what I've said.



Before you get all twisty about it, go back to the links I provided and do more than a cursory glance. You asked the question, I provided you with the location of the information. Now it's upon you to actually read it. There is even a multi-page, freely available preview of the setting books available on the website. I recommend that you read it to get a sense of what the book is actually like.


If you are looking for a brief description of what gaming in Kalamar is like, then I can only answer you this way: it is only like how you make it. Kalamar is, by design, a seeming real world rather than a detailed game world. THAT, is what it is like. There is space for exploration campaigns, political campaigns, straight dungeon delving campaigns, religious campaigns, and any mixture of them that you see fit.

The bit where you seem to think they're just saying "it's a low level campaign" is incorrect. They're saying that there is a decided lack of Drizzles, Elminsters, Khelben Blackstaffs, Mordenkainens, and omnipresent uber-magic that makes any contribution PC's might make an exercise in fridge logic or pointlessness. In essence, the campaign setting is not about the other people or places in the world, it's about the PC's.

That is what Kalamar is like to me. Now go out and do you the research you need to do.

hamlet
2010-04-15, 10:43 AM
It is actually really hard to explain the world. The best way would probably be to say that the world wants to kill you; multi-templated bad guys, cheap knock-off magic items, and political intrigue to levels that anyone not interested in the more Machevellian aspects of society would find nauseating.

I am actually playing in a Kalamar game elsewhere on the interwebs and the one thing we have learned is that allies are only those who do not outwardly wish for you to die... :smallannoyed:

Again, a matter of what kind of campaign the DM is running. The world is largely what the DM and the players make of it.

Armoury99
2010-04-15, 10:48 AM
I've only glanced over the main book, but I remember that the way it describes the various cults of the gods was very nice. Much more detailed than normal (vestments, holidays, relationships, rites and sacrifices etc). It was so good that it became our standard layout in other games/homebrew settings.

Plus, there were hobgoblins and half-hobgoblins.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-15, 10:53 AM
Ah, yes the Krangi... Haven't run into them this time round. Instead we have to deal with a glut of kobolds immortal lycanthropes...

InkEyes
2010-04-15, 11:38 AM
Would it be stupid of me to ask for a few sentences on what sets Kingdoms of Kalamar apart from Greyhawk or The Forgotten Realms?

I already know a respectable amount about those campaign settings, so, say I had a sudden craving for some high fantasy fun... what should motivate me to "research" this campaign setting over similar ones I already know about? Basically, I just want to know why I should care about the setting. Hostilely linking giant blocks of text is not only intimidating, but discouraging to someone like me who's just mildly curious about the Kingdoms of Kalamar.

Yora
2010-04-15, 11:46 AM
That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either. :smallbiggrin:

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-15, 11:48 AM
As has been said the world is not only very detailed but also consistant, something none of the other worlds seem to be able to do. Certain aspects of the world and the information actually come across as anthropolocial or historical material given the details presented, unlike the obvious fantasy elements of other worlds.

The important note though is that all magic is driven by the gods, even arcane magic is derived from divine sources so the entire world is if not pious, at least god-fearing.

Amphetryon
2010-04-15, 12:14 PM
KoK is a world where, by design, you're unlikely to be running around doing the bidding of near-epics who cannot be bothered, nor cleaning up the remains of a war that was fundamentally lost by all sides.

It does have some little oddities in the editing. By way of example, there's a LA+0 Deep Gnome presented in KoK that apparently navigates underground by collision, as they lack both Low-Light and Darkvision, unless all the members of my old group missed the same paragraph.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 12:22 PM
The important note though is that all magic is driven by the gods, even arcane magic is derived from divine sources so the entire world is if not pious, at least god-fearing.

Sounds like FR... remember Mystra, god of magic/weaves.

Exception is Psionics has own personal weave, but yeah.

hamlet
2010-04-15, 12:23 PM
Would it be stupid of me to ask for a few sentences on what sets Kingdoms of Kalamar apart from Greyhawk or The Forgotten Realms?


Kalamar as compared to Greyhawk:
*A stronger, more cohesive history, both regional and worldwide, though possibly less vaguely inspiring as Greyhawk Folio could be I suppose
*Less Magic.
*Lack of "Adventurer" as a legitimate career choice (i.e., no bulletin boards in town with "adventure opportunitites!" posted
*Less alignment as metaconcept
*Less iconics (i.e., the PC's are supposed to become the iconics)
*Less of an "adventurer's world" and more of a "get involved" world

Kalamar as compared to Forgotten Realms
*FAR LESS and FAR LOWER magic. It doesn't practically ooze from the setting's pores as it does in the Realms.
*Almost no explicit high level NPC's to overshadow PC's, almost no implied high level NPC's to overshadow PC's.
*Kalamar is a more socially developed world. Not really any of the minor city states and highly localized powers. There are empires with vast reach covering much of the land, though there are smaller, more regional nations as well, not to mention excellent city states (Dijishy springs to mind as a great one).
*The "Fantasy Quotient" is significantly turned down. Yes, there are dragons, yeti, orcs, goblins, wizards of ineffable power, etc, but they aren't practically tripping over each other. For the most part, your foes will be humans advancing their own agenda rather than the latest in a long series of cyclopean horrors emerging from the depths revealing yet another unrevealed monstrosity from the olden times.
*Far better maps and geography. I mean objectively so.
*Complete and total lack of a meta-plot. The timeline of the setting has not advanced a whit (with half of an exception) since it was first published and it is not expected to ever advance. No world shattering events to keep up with. No need to spend yourself poor on supplements just to keep up with the latest developments.

That's just a brief and incomplete few sentences for you.

Callos_DeTerran
2010-04-15, 12:33 PM
That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either. :smallbiggrin:

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.

Greyhawk is personally my favorite setting because...well...I can't really explain it. There's just a feeling of legacy about it. You don't cast Hideous Laughter. You cast Tasha's Hideous Laughter and wonder just who Tasha was. You find items, castles, and such left behind by other adventurers, not just the loot of evil bad-guys or temples. You see what other heroes have done or are still doing and know you can do the same.

Besides...It has Castle Greyhawk in it. I adore Castle Greyhawk and just wish there were more adventures for it.

InkEyes
2010-04-15, 12:41 PM
That's eaxactly my question.

But I never really got what's special about Greyhawk either. :smallbiggrin:

People say Forgotten Realms is generic, but I know the setting well enough that I would summarize it as "Evil churches and corrupt trade organizations fight each other for control over hundreds of small city states, while good aligned adventurerers try to stop them from exploiting the common people with the help of networks of powerful archmages."
I agree it's not as great as the premises of Planescape, Eberron, Dark Sun, and Ravenloft, but if I want high fantasy, I at least know what the Realms are about and what PCs are expected to do once they gain higher levels.
With Greyhawk and Kalamar, I have no idea.


I kind of figured that's what you were asking. See, I had the same problem with finding concise sources on what KoK was all about, but this thread is helping me quite a bit.

re Greyhawk: it's appeal is a mix of nostalgia and pure vanillaness. It's the first setting and because of that there's a lot of history with it's nations and races, but It's completely generic and thereby open to modification. It's also free of any of those tricky details like"YOU MUST WORSHIP A GOD OR BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO YOU" or "MAGIC TRAINS AND ROBOTS" so it's easy to pick up the system and not worry much about the fluff. I'm not a huge fan of it, but I can see why Wizards would use it as their base campaign for the first edition they released. It drew in old players and was easy to grasp for newbies.


That's just a brief and incomplete few sentences for you.

Cool, thanks for that.

-----


One Two follow-up questions: are there any unique approaches to the races or nations of the world? Are there any you really like/think the designers could've done more with?

hamlet
2010-04-15, 01:06 PM
One Two follow-up questions: are there any unique approaches to the races or nations of the world? Are there any you really like/think the designers could've done more with?

Unique in what way? You mean unlike any other published campaign setting?

No, not really, though that is changing somewhat with the new Hackmaster materials and humanoids at least (see, bugbears who must consume a sentient child in order for the female to "go into heat"). For the most part, and this is another draw for me at least, the designers took what they had (i.e., the standard D&D type creatures/races) and made best use of them via extrapolation.

For example, the Hobgoblins are, essentially, the embodiment of this. In the monster manuals (or, at least in mine), Hobgoblins are noted as being militant, organized, and disciplined in addition to simply evil. So, here in Kalamar, the Hobgoblins formed their own kingdoms a long while ago, which are still extant and interact on a more or less civilized basis with their neighbors. The most significant would be Norga-Krangrel, formed by Kruk-Ma-Kali after he conquered the Eastern Brandobian Empire (much of it anyway) and took control of the disparate tribes, uniting them. When he died, his empire diminished, though still exists and legends abound that when he was slain by treacherous minions, his body was spirited away by a faithful few and buried in an elaborate tomb with his renowned sword to await a true Hobgoblin, a reincarnation of the great Kruk-Ma-Kali himself, to discover and reclaim the sword and lead the Hobgoblins to their manifest destiny of rulling over all other sentient beings.

Some things I'd wish done better? Well . . . at times, though I know that the setting is very humanocentric, it feels like certain demi-humans got short shrift in the main CS book. Gnomes, Halflings, and to some extent Dwarves are sort of pushed out of their limelight, though again, it's understandable considering the goals of the designers. Dwarves do, though, get saved by having about the coolest adventure/campaign hooks known to man IMO.

Still, I would have loved to have seen stronger material defining the places of some of the demi-humans, even if only a few pages.

Yora
2010-04-15, 01:42 PM
Kalamar as compared to Greyhawk:

Kalamar as compared to Forgotten Realms
And this is what I see as a problem with a setting. Just doing things different than others doesn't make a good setting.
What does KoK have for itself, what does it have to show, what makes player thinking "I want to explore that and learn more about it"?

I admit, this is an approach to fiction that depends on personal taste and oppinion. There's nothing wrong to admire a work for it's craftmanship. But I value art on it's ability to inspire the audience, to evoke emotion and stimulaty the imagination.
And I wonder if this was atempted by the writers at all?

hamlet
2010-04-15, 03:04 PM
And this is what I see as a problem with a setting. Just doing things different than others doesn't make a good setting.
What does KoK have for itself, what does it have to show, what makes player thinking "I want to explore that and learn more about it"?

I admit, this is an approach to fiction that depends on personal taste and oppinion. There's nothing wrong to admire a work for it's craftmanship. But I value art on it's ability to inspire the audience, to evoke emotion and stimulaty the imagination.
And I wonder if this was atempted by the writers at all?

One might very well turn the question around and ask what about Forgotten Realms inspires and makes you want to learn more about it? Frankly, I find the setting dull and boorish.

And if you wonder if this was attempted by the writers at all, then you plainly have never read it and are talking out the side of your neck. Follow the links I provided you above and read some of the specific material. Read the preview pages of the setting book. Couple of my favorite pages are in there, specifically the history of Brandobia. Go and read and form an opinion rather than demanding that somebody form an opinion on your behalf.

The best way to understand the setting is to read it, as it does not lend itself at all to capsule descriptions like Forgotten Realms or Planescape or anything else.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 03:14 PM
Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).

hamlet
2010-04-15, 03:17 PM
Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).

That doesn't make it unique. Or even that interesting.

Ptolus had guns and is FAR more on both counts.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 03:18 PM
Well, FR has guns along side magic. (granted not everyone has guns since only diety Gond allows them created).
Faerun is a much more complex and deep setting than many people seem to wish to believe. If they, as hamlet is so forcefully insisting, "just go read it", they might find that it's more than just "LOLOLOLEPICMAGES" and "Drizz't saves teh days!". :smallannoyed: Also, you don't have to like it, but, this thread is not about bashing something you don't like.

Also, hamlet, when someone asks for your thoughts on what sets something apart and makes it special, a good response is not, "Stop talking about stuff you don't know about and go read it!" That just makes you sound like a boor and an ass. I get that you really like it, and are defending it, but honestly, some folk don't have the TIME to read through all that, and would just like a concise answer from the resident expert. It's not a major thing Yora is asking, just "what makes Kalamar special?" and there's been no answer thus far, just "well, it's not Eberron or the Forgotten Realms". Just food for thought. :smallwink:

hamlet
2010-04-15, 03:24 PM
Also, hamlet, when someone asks for your thoughts on what sets something apart and makes it special, a good response is not, "Stop talking about stuff you don't know about and go read it!" That just makes you sound like a boor and an ass. I get that you really like it, and are defending it, but honestly, some folk don't have the TIME to read through all that, and would just like a concise answer from the resident expert. It's not a major thing Yora is asking, just "what makes Kalamar special?" and there's been no answer thus far, just "well, it's not Eberron or the Forgotten Realms". Just food for thought. :smallwink:

Yeah, here's the thing: I GAVE AN ANSWER. More than once.

Yora simply didn't like my answer and demanded a new one repeatedly and my response to that was "you know how I feel and why, if you want to know more, then go ask others who like it and perhaps read the 7 pages available for free." Seven pages is not, precisely, an epic time sink you know.

And as for "it's not Forgotten Realms," I was specifically asked to note differences as I see them between the two settings and was specifically responding to that poster who was not Yora.

Further, I might be a boor and an ass much of the time in my life, but I have been neither here and I resent being labeled as such.

And, for the record, I have read the Forgotten Realms material and my opinions of it are, for the most part, informed, and precisely that, opinions.

Yora
2010-04-15, 03:28 PM
As I said, FR has all these evil churches, like those of Bane, Cyric, and Shar, evil trade organizations like Zhentarim, Iron Throne, and Night Masks, and some other factions like the Red Wizards and the Shades. All of those are constantly plotting on taking over governments and destroying those who get in their way.
I don't say it's the perfect campaign for everyone, but protecting the commoners and rightful rulers from these evil organizations by exposing their plots and fighting their leaders is a pretty solid basic theme for a campaign.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 03:30 PM
I said you appeared to be boorish, with repeated applications of "just go read it!" Personally, I don't think you are either, but others may disagree and I figured I'd mention it, since you seem to have taken this to heart rather strongly, and don't wish to see you get an infraction for having a strong opinion.

As for a blurb about what Kalamar is, I just checked the entire thread, and all I found was that you feel it is superbly detailed and made with a sense for politics and mapmaking. These are great traits, ones that other settings DO lack for, yes, but that doesn't really tell someone much about the setting. I believe Yora is wondering what a game may look like, what NPC interaction is like, etc. You know, stuff you can actually figure out with other settings in about 5 minutes reading the sourcebook. With Kalamar, such things seem to be harder to discern, thus the confusion.

Finally, as for the Realms and your opinions, I didn't mean to slight them. I have a dislike of people smashing the Realms without cause, and I'm glad to see you have at least done your homework, which so very few others do. Also, I have no wish to turn this into a Realms debate, since that's not the POINT of the thread.

tl;dr: I have no dog in the fight, just wish to clarify and explain things, since it feels as though emotion is getting in the way of comprehension for several folks here. :smallwink:

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-15, 03:37 PM
Faerun is a much more complex and deep setting than many people seem to wish to believe. If they, as hamlet is so forcefully insisting, "just go read it", they might find that it's more than just "LOLOLOLEPICMAGES" and "Drizz't saves teh days!". :smallannoyed: Also, you don't have to like it, but, this thread is not about bashing something you don't like.

After the module I played through where after the PCs are in a tough battle the GM is instructed to have an old man waving a stick at a dog and telling it to "heel"*, I've lost all hope for the setting. As did my DM.




*Spoiler: the old man is Elminister and the stick just happens to be a staff of healing or curing or something.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 03:41 PM
After the module I played through where after the PCs are in a tough battle the GM is instructed to have an old man waving a stick at a dog and telling it to "heel"*, I've lost all hope for the setting. As did my DM.
...:smallsigh: That's really bad module design right there, like, wow. Not even gonna TRY and defend that, cause, uh, it's really fail. I personally argue about the Realms from a world-level perspective, and just ignore terrible design like the above, since it's not indicative of the setting as a whole.

Course, that's neither here nor there, and is for another time. But yeah, wow, that's really terribly made. You have my sympathies.

Yora
2010-04-15, 03:42 PM
One bad adventure writer is reason to regard an entire concept as unsalvagable?

Every single Star Wars movie is really bad, but it's still a really great setting.

hamlet
2010-04-15, 03:46 PM
As I said, FR has all these evil churches, like those of Bane, Cyric, and Shar, evil trade organizations like Zhentarim, Iron Throne, and Night Masks, and some other factions like the Red Wizards and the Shades. All of those are constantly plotting on taking over governments and destroying those who get in their way.
I don't say it's the perfect campaign for everyone, but protecting the commoners and rightful rulers from these evil organizations by exposing their plots and fighting their leaders is a pretty solid basic theme for a campaign.

And I'm not saying that it's bad, or even singling it out (except that it got mentioned and now it'll probably carry around like a dead fish three days old). I actually rather like some bits of the Forgotten Realms, though my version of the Realms would be so vastly different that nobody would recognize it as such.

However, I do find that the setting is, IMO, dull and flat. It's typical and rather bland to my eye.

Kalamar's flavor, while near impossible to throw into some capsule review, is significantly different. There's still the aspect of protecting innocents if that's what your group wants to do, but by and large the campaign setting book is much more about the people who call the world home and, really, the best advice I can give you is to read some of it. I can't sell you on it beyond what I've already said until you take a look at parts of it.

You want to know why I like it? Because it's a living world with frenetic energy everywhere. Because it's complex and intense. Because it never falls flat and leaves me non-plussed. Because the focus is, despite all the detail, more on what the players do than on the world itself. Essentially, it's a stage that's been set, with a whole lot of sound and fury happening all around you rather than focusing on iconicness and uniqueness. It's a real seeming world rather than a campaign world.



I said you appeared to be boorish, with repeated applications of "just go read it!" Personally, I don't think you are either, but others may disagree and I figured I'd mention it, since you seem to have taken this to heart rather strongly, and don't wish to see you get an infraction for having a strong opinion.

Forgive my crankiness. Yes, I responded strongly to what you said, but understand that I'm not actually being boorish, difficult, or argumentative. My point is becoming this: at what point, if this were a thread about Forgotten Realms, would you have to tell the inquiring person that in order to understand more they would simply have to pick up the book and look at it? I have given my answer, and continually demanding a different one is equally boorish and argumentative at least.


As for a blurb about what Kalamar is, I just checked the entire thread, and all I found was that you feel it is superbly detailed and made with a sense for politics and mapmaking. These are great traits, ones that other settings DO lack for, yes, but that doesn't really tell someone much about the setting.

Understood, which is why I provided the second link. There is a wealth of capsule style information in that link, almost enough to actually play in the setting without buying the campaign setting book. I don't feel the need to transcribe its contents here when a simple left click will get one there.


I believe Yora is wondering what a game may look like, what NPC interaction is like, etc. You know, stuff you can actually figure out with other settings in about 5 minutes reading the sourcebook. With Kalamar, such things seem to be harder to discern, thus the confusion.


The setting is specifically designed so that any campaign will not look like another. The game is reflective of the players rather than the campaign setting, and that's a huge strength, as I've said.


Finally, as for the Realms and your opinions, I didn't mean to slight them. I have a dislike of people smashing the Realms without cause, and I'm glad to see you have at least done your homework, which so very few others do.

Heck, I own a rather sizeable collection of Realms products and every now and then get the urge to throw something together, but overall, it's just not my type of world for so many reasons that they belong in another thread.

hamlet
2010-04-15, 03:48 PM
After the module I played through where after the PCs are in a tough battle the GM is instructed to have an old man waving a stick at a dog and telling it to "heel"*, I've lost all hope for the setting. As did my DM.




*Spoiler: the old man is Elminister and the stick just happens to be a staff of healing or curing or something.

Heh, I remember that. From the AD&D 2nd edition boxed set of all things.


And no, it's no reason to trash the entire setting, though overall I've never been happy with ANY FR modules. They're almost universally poor in my eye.

Thalnawr
2010-04-15, 03:50 PM
I'll post my 2 copper opinion here as well, I suppose.

The Kingdoms of Kalamar setting differs from most published settings for the game in that it was developed from the ground up, as a world. Other settings were generated from the stories of the Gygax and Greenwood home campaigns, along with the various novels written about the people of the world.

As far as NPC interactions go, that's determined more by how the GM interprets the setting, rather than the setting itself (like any other setting). KoK just leaves things more open for the GM, because there are no novels (that I know of) to shape your perception of the world. This approach is probably what endears the setting to me as a player and GM.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 03:50 PM
...:smallsigh: That's really bad module design right there, like, wow. Not even gonna TRY and defend that, cause, uh, it's really fail. I personally argue about the Realms from a world-level perspective, and just ignore terrible design like the above, since it's not indicative of the setting as a whole.

Course, that's neither here nor there, and is for another time. But yeah, wow, that's really terribly made. You have my sympathies.

What designers liked to have funny inside jokes.

One 2nd edition module had a wizard with a beer and a TV.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 03:51 PM
Forgive my crankiness. Yes, I responded strongly to what you said, but understand that I'm not actually being boorish, difficult, or argumentative. My point is becoming this: at what point, if this were a thread about Forgotten Realms, would you have to tell the inquiring person that in order to understand more they would simply have to pick up the book and look at it? I have given my answer, and continually demanding a different one is equally boorish and argumentative at least.
Hey, I'm with ya here, I just wanted you to be aware, so you don't get nicked for it. You're pretty interesting to read and speak with, and I'd like to continue to be able to do so. :smallwink:


Understood, which is why I provided the second link. There is a wealth of capsule style information in that link, almost enough to actually play in the setting without buying the campaign setting book. I don't feel the need to transcribe its contents here when a simple left click will get one there.
Note that I haven't bothered to read them, because I don't care to, since I have no interest in the setting beyond what I already know (gleaned from reading the setting book). However, good to know. Perhaps directing someone to that in specific in the future would forestall such lengthy back and forth's?


The setting is specifically designed so that any campaign will not look like another. The game is reflective of the players rather than the campaign setting, and that's a huge strength, as I've said.
See, THIS is what Yora was likely looking for, but was never clearly stated. Also, this is a commendable goal for a setting.


Heck, I own a rather sizeable collection of Realms products and every now and then get the urge to throw something together, but overall, it's just not my type of world for so many reasons that they belong in another thread.
You know, I have the sudden urge to run a Realms game for you, as it was run for me. I think you'd like it significantly more than you might expect. However, I am light on time these days, so, yeah.

Mauther
2010-04-15, 03:59 PM
From my experience in the game setting, KoK is not just a low magic setting, its a low fantasy setting. Unlike your regular fantasy (Greyhawk) or high fantasy (Forgotten Realms), its very similar to medieval Europe in mood and setting. If you go into a tavern your unlikely to find the Star Wars cantina scene. Your almost certainly not going to have a half outsider barkeep. It just sets a mood for a much more down to earth campaign, which certainly isn't for everyone. Its also ridiculously well supported, something like 30 3rd edition books. I've heard it given the backhanded compliment of "best vanilla setting" which I think is fairly accurate.

Yora
2010-04-15, 03:59 PM
You want to know why I like it? Because it's a living world with frenetic energy everywhere. Because it's complex and intense. Because it never falls flat and leaves me non-plussed. Because the focus is, despite all the detail, more on what the players do than on the world itself. Essentially, it's a stage that's been set, with a whole lot of sound and fury happening all around you rather than focusing on iconicness and uniqueness. It's a real seeming world rather than a campaign world.
So what would you say? What types of things would players have to expect from a game so that you would say "Kalamar is the setting you are looking for"?


The setting is specifically designed so that any campaign will not look like another. The game is reflective of the players rather than the campaign setting, and that's a huge strength, as I've said.
How so? With every setting, the books just give a setup and everything that happens from that point is left completely to the gm and the players.
Yes, some times settings get overhauled and new books get published that say "in a game that takes place in the year XYZQ, the historical background looks like this". Which personally I believe to be a really stupid idea, but the old material doesn't go away and everyone keeps playing in the same world as before. You can just regard other eras as alternate universes and everything's fine.
How does Kalamar take a biger focus on the PCs without forcing all the other inhabitants of the world to do nothing?

Emmerask
2010-04-15, 04:18 PM
Every single Star Wars movie is really bad, but it's still a really great setting.

:smalleek: heresy :smalleek:
Most people seem to not agree with this statement because Empire strikes back is in most top 10 best movies ever made lists :smallwink:

Anyway
The setting seems to go into very great detail about a lot of things which is neat and other settings definitively lag (except the dark eye^^).
On the other hand there is no real premade "hook" for the adventurers so the dm has to put in some extra efford and make one from scratch.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 04:25 PM
:smalleek: heresy :smalleek:
Most people seem to not agree with this statement because Empire strikes back is in most top 10 best movies ever made lists :smallwink:

Anyway
The setting seems to go into very great detail about a lot of things which is neat and other settings definitively lag (except the dark eye^^).
On the other hand there is no real premade "hook" for the adventurers so the dm has to put in some extra efford and make one from scratch.

To be fair, I've known girls who haven't seen a single Star Wars movie.

So it might be possible for one person to not like any of them (even though that sound impossible).

Yora
2010-04-15, 04:25 PM
The Dark Eye is made by germans, for germans. :smallbiggrin:
It's actually not just a silly stereotype, we really get turned on by charts and tables and need every detail precisely recorded. We make games like 1602 AD and love them! ^^

hamlet
2010-04-15, 04:28 PM
So what would you say? What types of things would players have to expect from a game so that you would say "Kalamar is the setting you are looking for"?

Again, very difficult if not impossible to say. Mostly, I'd say it's an "I'd know when to recommend it when I see the situation" kind of thing.

What types of things should a player look for? Well, entirely independent of the DM (and I mean entirely independent here), players should look for intricate and involved politics between the various nations. A world that strongly resembles, in many ways, 13th-14th century Europe, though never really becomes "and here's our expy of Britain, and here's our expy of Greece . . ." A world where the bad guys are really BAD GUYS (if you had the book, I'd direct you to the church of the Overlord for a simple capsule glimpse into that). A humanocentric world that still has the touch of fantasy, especially around the edges. A chance to free an ancient dwarven kingdom from an expansionist human empire, or to contribute to the oppression. A chance to discover a lost, dead, or imprisoned creator deity. Or simply spend years exploring the ruins of the southern continent and the cradle of all civilization.

Find the tomb of Kruk-Ma-Kali and plunder it.

Fight an acquatic Terrasque or simply loose it on the world.

Topple the Emperor Kabori, greatest emporor Kalamar has seen in centuries and place an heir to the Inakas line back on the imperial throne. Or, get in good with him and help him conquer the known world.

Spy games throughout.

Evil temples devoted to the enslavement of all living sentient beings, and undead, and the simply dead, and likely quite capable of doing so in time (the Overlord).

A good temple devoted to chivalry and the opposition of evil across the world.

I mean, it's very difficult to just give you a list of "what to expect" when it's really a matter of what you do with it.





How so? With every setting, the books just give a setup and everything that happens from that point is left completely to the gm and the players.
Yes, some times settings get overhauled and new books get published that say "in a game that takes place in the year XYZQ, the historical background looks like this". Which personally I believe to be a really stupid idea, but the old material doesn't go away and everyone keeps playing in the same world as before. You can just regard other eras as alternate universes and everything's fine.
How does Kalamar take a biger focus on the PCs without forcing all the other inhabitants of the world to do nothing?

Again, very difficult to say. It's largely a matter of feel, and that feel is generated a whole host of very tiny details.

Take, for instance, the case of Emporor Kabori. His motivations are about the closest you can get to a "typical" RPG NPC motives. He wants to, in very short summary, restore the Kalamaran Empire to its former glory by reconquering all of its old holdings, and then to expand those holdings into new territory. He wants to ensure the survival and thriving of his family line and to suppress attempts to restore the original royal line (Inakas) to the throne. But there's no hint at all on whether you're supposed to consider him a villain or a hero, or just a guy. There's no isolated "and here's your adventure opportunity" moment, it's really something that an entire campaign could be based around if that's where the players bite. Maybe they want to overthrow him and place themselves on the throne. Fine, but there's no set path, or even a hinted path at that. It's a goal the players can set for themselves and pursue, but it'll take them years of real time to get there. It's not like Ascalhorn (sorry, don't recall the new name of the place) where removing the top demon will cause the rest to come tumbling down and the PC's are home in time for supper.

On top of that, there are problems throughout the world, specifically called out throughout the text, but nobody is waiting in the wings to pounce on it and solve everything. No Harpers. No Guilds of adventurers. Nothing. And the secret societies and groups that are struggling to do good are almost ineffectual because of the huge nature of their tasks. If the world is to get "better," then it's entirely up to the PC's to do it.

Really, and I hate to say it again, it's something you really do have to experience a bit.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-15, 04:33 PM
On top of that, there are problems throughout the world, specifically called out throughout the text, but nobody is waiting in the wings to pounce on it and solve everything. No Harpers. No Guilds of adventurers. Nothing. And the secret societies and groups that are struggling to do good are almost ineffectual because of the huge nature of their tasks. If the world is to get "better," then it's entirely up to the PC's to do it.

Really, and I hate to say it again, it's something you really do have to experience a bit.

Can you explain how the world prevents adventuring guilds?
Are there decrees/laws against adventuring? Are the people lazy slobs that have no need of money?
Seems like a plot hole without a reasoning why this doesn't occur.

Thalnawr
2010-04-15, 04:37 PM
Can you explain how the world prevents adventuring guilds?
Are there decrees/laws against adventuring? Are the people lazy slobs that have no need of money?
Seems like a plot hole without a reasoning why this doesn't occur.
It's not so much that the world prevents adventuring guilds, it's more that there are none written into the history of the world. If there is a guild created, it's because the PCs make it happen.

Emmerask
2010-04-15, 04:38 PM
Again, very difficult if not impossible to say. Mostly, I'd say it's an "I'd know when to recommend it when I see the situation" kind of thing.

What types of things should a player look for? Well, entirely independent of the DM (and I mean entirely independent here), players should look for intricate and involved politics between the various nations. A world that strongly resembles, in many ways, 13th-14th century Europe, though never really becomes "and here's our expy of Britain, and here's our expy of Greece . . ." A world where the bad guys are really BAD GUYS (if you had the book, I'd direct you to the church of the Overlord for a simple capsule glimpse into that). A humanocentric world that still has the touch of fantasy, especially around the edges. A chance to free an ancient dwarven kingdom from an expansionist human empire, or to contribute to the oppression. A chance to discover a lost, dead, or imprisoned creator deity. Or simply spend years exploring the ruins of the southern continent and the cradle of all civilization.


This actually sounds like fun might try this after our current Aventurien is on the same planet as Faerun campaign (yes its awesome :smallbiggrin:)

nyjastul69
2010-04-15, 05:22 PM
It should also be noted that the KoK CS is extremely light on mechanics. I feel this makes it a bit easier to use with other systems. Virtually everything in the book is generic enough to easily play other systems with. Most other settings are more system specific and a bit more difficult to use in alternate systems.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-15, 05:35 PM
Can you explain how the world prevents adventuring guilds?
Are there decrees/laws against adventuring? Are the people lazy slobs that have no need of money?
Seems like a plot hole without a reasoning why this doesn't occur.

Actually it's because as was stated the world is low fantasy. The city guard are often normal humans with minimal training and skill, and when a group of adventurers does something stupid, gets themselves killed, and angers a beast of unknown power the cities cannot protect themselves.

As such you need strict support of either the church(s) or the nobles, and the starting capital for equipment to do something. This creates a natural catch-22 that prevents adventuring because to adventure you have to have been adventuring.

hamlet
2010-04-19, 07:33 AM
You know, I have the sudden urge to run a Realms game for you, as it was run for me. I think you'd like it significantly more than you might expect. However, I am light on time these days, so, yeah.

Tell me about it.:smallsmile: Working 12 hour shifts 6 days a week really cuts into such petty activities as sleeping and eating let alone gaming.

I probably would enjoy playing in a Forgotten Realms campaign. Heck, I'd probably enjoy playing a campaign in most settings if done well. Just that it's not always going to be the first thing I reach for on the shelf is all.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-19, 08:14 AM
Hmm this thread is very interesting i may go read some of the KOK books now.

So you guys say it has a low magic/low fantasy feel to it. does it keep that up through higher levels or does it turn into your typical campain setting at that level?

Cuaqchi
2010-04-19, 08:19 AM
I have only layed a couple games in it and neither is/was really high level. The one that finished had characters around 10th-12th level and was still under fairly strict DM control. The present one is only at level 7-8 right now, but seems to have its own distinct feel even at such a common level of play.

faceroll
2010-04-19, 03:32 PM
FR is at least somewhat internally consistent, given that it is ruled by mages in a setting where magic is powerful (all of D&D).

KoK has better magic, weaker melee races and better caster races, and it's run by a bunch of low level muggles. Not a fan of the setting, but I do use it as a source for overpowered stuff.

Dilvish
2010-09-11, 06:06 PM
It should also be noted that the KoK CS is extremely light on mechanics. I feel this makes it a bit easier to use with other systems. Virtually everything in the book is generic enough to easily play other systems with. Most other settings are more system specific and a bit more difficult to use in alternate systems.

I second this. The Kalamar source books avoid rules-specific stuff as much as possible. This is also a goal for Kalamar source books in the 5th edition Hackmaster age.

One of the aspects I liked about the KoK setting is that you didn't need to have lots of high powered magic to survive. Or to be an uber-build character. There is also a consistancy in the world that you don't always see in Forgotten Realms, since there the world was developed by a smaller group of people, nor are there novels. Though I suppose FR would have developed differently if it was still Ed Greenwood's baby.

Yora, what you posted before, "The Dark Eye is made by germans, for germans. It's actually not just a silly stereotype, we really get turned on by charts and tables and need every detail precisely recorded. We make games like 1602 AD and love them! ^^" If that is true, you'll love KoK. There are detailed tables for wandering monsters, NPC names, etc. A wonderful detailed atlas of the world, that may be on sale.

Michael Lyons

hamlet
2010-09-13, 09:18 AM
Though I suppose FR would have developed differently if it was still Ed Greenwood's baby.



There used to be a post somewhere over on Dragonsfoot somewhere where Ed Greenwood talked about what Forgotten Realms would have been had he maintained complete creative control. It was kind of interesting to learn that I didnt hate the guy after all, just what his setting was horribly transformed into over the decades.

As for Kalamar, I believe that the creators are on record that the 5th edition setting material will be somewhat more rules intensive, leaning towards 5th edition Hackmaster, which is understandable since they merged the product lines. However, they are still going to be so rules light that virtually any system is usable in the world. There are some who use BRP and GURPS to run Kalamar campaigns, and they are still going strong after several years.

arguskos
2010-09-13, 10:08 AM
There used to be a post somewhere over on Dragonsfoot somewhere where Ed Greenwood talked about what Forgotten Realms would have been had he maintained complete creative control. It was kind of interesting to learn that I didnt hate the guy after all, just what his setting was horribly transformed into over the decades.
That is something I would have loved to see, actually. Damn.

hamlet
2010-09-13, 12:02 PM
That is something I would have loved to see, actually. Damn.

It's probably still there on Dragonsfoot forums. I'd search and link myself, but the Firewall of Doom here in the office prevents me access to those forums.

arguskos
2010-09-13, 12:20 PM
It's probably still there on Dragonsfoot forums. I'd search and link myself, but the Firewall of Doom here in the office prevents me access to those forums.
Hmm, I might need to hit that up. I'll go see if I can find it.

Pika...
2010-09-13, 12:30 PM
Oh I love their books!

VERY detailed, which I like. I LOVE their Goods & Gear books. I like running my games as immersed as I can, and since I run low-wealth and low-magic that book is always a help to me.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 12:55 PM
I have some of these books...I dug through them, but haven't used them in a campaign yet. Yes, very detailed. I don't think I've ever before seen a module that had roughly half of it devoted to the PCs helping the NPCs farm.

Now, Im a bit skeptical of the value of this detail. I just can't see most PCs WANTING to spend half the time helping NPCs farm.

Pika...
2010-09-13, 01:13 PM
I have some of these books...I dug through them, but haven't used them in a campaign yet. Yes, very detailed. I don't think I've ever before seen a module that had roughly half of it devoted to the PCs helping the NPCs farm.

Now, Im a bit skeptical of the value of this detail. I just can't see most PCs WANTING to spend half the time helping NPCs farm.

That s perfect for my style of game. Can I has module name, please? O.O



edit:
I guess this style of setting/detail is meant for a very immerse style of player/group. I would personally love playing in it.

crizh
2010-09-13, 01:14 PM
I've been playing in a KoK campaign for most of the last decade, 3.0 and 3.5, and while I do love the low fantasy grim and gritty feel (it's a lot like Harn I think) I do have some caveats.

The fluff of the setting is fantastic but....

The guys at Kenzer are not hugely brilliant at balanced crunch.

It is hugely difficult to comprehend how they managed it but there is very little balanced stuff in the Kalamar setting. It's either so badly underpowered that I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole or so badly broken that it makes the optimizer in me weep with joy.

Compare Vessel of Man and Ur Priest. Or Shaman and Shaman. Or Dervish and Dervish. I don't think there is a single PrC in those books I would ever consider taking with the possible exception of the 3.5 version of Golem Master which is just violently broken.

Spells too. Most of them are rubbish, can't imagine why you would bother but some of them are so obviously broken that it is beyond credulity that they ever made it into print. I don't think Spell Haste was ever removed or updated, Summon Fey is particularly egregious. I've been playing a Forest Gnome for four years in our game. I started as Druid but quickly multi-ed into Psion when the campaign took on a Psionic flavour. Those two levels of Druid have allowed my to bust the campaign wide open on several occasions purely because they gave me access to Summon Fey.

High level play.

Forget it.

Our current campaign has been an exercise in keeping the DM motivated since we hit level 7. I think nearly half the published adventures are for 1st level characters and the few higher level scenarios just don't hold up against the sort of Scrying and Teleporting shenanigans that become commonplace about level 9.

Generally the low magic tenor of the world doesn't cope well with characters over level 9.

ps

The Atlas is undoubtedly gorgeous but I did notice during the section of the campaign that I ran (when our main DM was near burnout) that the individual pages don't have a readily accessible scale. There is a laminate overlay but it is fiddly and you still have to calculate distances by hand. Very frustrating.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 01:16 PM
That s perfect for my style of game. Can I has module name, please? O.O

I'll dig it up when I get home, I don't recall what it was named offhand.

hamlet
2010-09-13, 01:25 PM
I have some of these books...I dug through them, but haven't used them in a campaign yet. Yes, very detailed. I don't think I've ever before seen a module that had roughly half of it devoted to the PCs helping the NPCs farm.

Now, Im a bit skeptical of the value of this detail. I just can't see most PCs WANTING to spend half the time helping NPCs farm.

Huh? I have most, if not all, of the modules, and I've never seen what you describe.

crizh
2010-09-13, 02:13 PM
Invasion of Arun'kid perhaps?

One of the hooks has the PC's starting as villagers.

hamlet
2010-09-13, 02:58 PM
Invasion of Arun'kid perhaps?

One of the hooks has the PC's starting as villagers.

Yes, one of the hooks does indeed start as the players starting as villagers. But I do not recal any moment in the text devoted to the PC's helping villagers farm. I was reading that one just the other day.

crizh
2010-09-13, 03:07 PM
Were they mud farmers?:smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 05:00 PM
Pearls of Pekal.

Well, the PCs were considered wealthy in comparison, I believe, and it is a low level campaign.

Half of it being farming is, upon review, a bit of an overstatement, but it DOES have a great deal of the adventure devoted to very non-combat related stuff.

hamlet
2010-09-13, 05:06 PM
Pearls of Pekal.

Well, the PCs were considered wealthy in comparison, I believe, and it is a low level campaign.

Half of it being farming is, upon review, a bit of an overstatement, but it DOES have a great deal of the adventure devoted to very non-combat related stuff.

Pearls of Pekal? Do you mean Perils of Pekal?

That sounds like it came out of the Living Campaign series, which included a great deal of "downtime" type activities, so it's not entirely surprising that it would be there.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 05:14 PM
That one, yeah. Heh, guess I focus on loot a bit much.

hamlet
2010-09-13, 05:32 PM
That one, yeah. Heh, guess I focus on loot a bit much.

Okay, it's been a while since I looked at that book, but as I recal, it was really the setting material for the Living Campaign, so naturally it was filled with the non-adventure "downtime" stuff. I'll look at it again in the next night or two, but I'm not sure "half devoted to farming" is entirely accurate here.

Tyndmyr
2010-09-13, 05:46 PM
It's basically as follows.

Adventure starts in a market. Much talking. They then travel to the farming village. There is one possible minor encounter in this part. Meh. There's about seven pages and change of farming town stuff. Then...goblins. Scenario 1 is dominated by non combat stuff.

Scenario 2 is a buncha stuff in another podunk town. The first seven pages is all town, and the PCs getting a job on a fishing ship. No encounters even listed here. Somewhere around page 9 you have your first possible minor encounter. Then there's tracking and such until you find the actual 4 part encounter.

I haven't read through scenario 3 in full, but the initial sections are "looking for lodgings", "looking for work" and "taxes".

It's a *very* high setup to encounter ratio. I find most published modules are relatively low on fluff, with just a bit to get you started and through the adventure itself, generally leaving the overall campaign fluff and integrating the module into your campaign to you. Some might consider this desirable, some might not. *shrug* I haven't really played enough of it to make up my mind yet.

Pika...
2010-09-13, 06:23 PM
It's basically as follows.

Adventure starts in a market. Much talking. They then travel to the farming village. There is one possible minor encounter in this part. Meh. There's about seven pages and change of farming town stuff. Then...goblins. Scenario 1 is dominated by non combat stuff.

Scenario 2 is a buncha stuff in another podunk town. The first seven pages is all town, and the PCs getting a job on a fishing ship. No encounters even listed here. Somewhere around page 9 you have your first possible minor encounter. Then there's tracking and such until you find the actual 4 part encounter.

I haven't read through scenario 3 in full, but the initial sections are "looking for lodgings", "looking for work" and "taxes".

It's a *very* high setup to encounter ratio. I find most published modules are relatively low on fluff, with just a bit to get you started and through the adventure itself, generally leaving the overall campaign fluff and integrating the module into your campaign to you. Some might consider this desirable, some might not. *shrug* I haven't really played enough of it to make up my mind yet.

Oh, that's the kind of campaign/module I dream of...

So much world exploring and emergence. I love it.

Thank you!

ashmanonar
2010-09-13, 09:22 PM
KoK is a world where, by design, you're unlikely to be running around doing the bidding of near-epics who cannot be bothered, nor cleaning up the remains of a war that was fundamentally lost by all sides.

It does have some little oddities in the editing. By way of example, there's a LA+0 Deep Gnome presented in KoK that apparently navigates underground by collision, as they lack both Low-Light and Darkvision, unless all the members of my old group missed the same paragraph.

Echolocation. Same mechanic as Warriors in WoW use to detect stealthed Rogues.

hamlet
2010-09-14, 07:23 AM
It's basically as follows.

Adventure starts in a market. Much talking. They then travel to the farming village. There is one possible minor encounter in this part. Meh. There's about seven pages and change of farming town stuff. Then...goblins. Scenario 1 is dominated by non combat stuff.

Scenario 2 is a buncha stuff in another podunk town. The first seven pages is all town, and the PCs getting a job on a fishing ship. No encounters even listed here. Somewhere around page 9 you have your first possible minor encounter. Then there's tracking and such until you find the actual 4 part encounter.

I haven't read through scenario 3 in full, but the initial sections are "looking for lodgings", "looking for work" and "taxes".

It's a *very* high setup to encounter ratio. I find most published modules are relatively low on fluff, with just a bit to get you started and through the adventure itself, generally leaving the overall campaign fluff and integrating the module into your campaign to you. Some might consider this desirable, some might not. *shrug* I haven't really played enough of it to make up my mind yet.

Well, I'll look it over tomorrow, but it's worth noting that the adventure modules for KoK are, generally, believed by even die hard fans to not live up to the promise of the setting. I tend to agree with that, though there are a few that are very good.

The Hungry Dead, Night of the Rot Lord, House of Brodlen(sp?), and Secret Temple of Adajy are all very excellent adventures. Especially that last one if you're in the dungeon crawling mood.

There are a few others that aren't bad, but generally speaking, KoK thrives more on sandboxy type gaming where the DM/GM creates their own adventures, or simply has the players interact with the world at large and seek their own fortunes. Some of the best "adventure areas" in the setting just scream for a strong DM hand: The Obakasek Jungle one that I've been planning out a bit in my zero spare time should I ever manage to get a group together.

EDIT: Also, Invasion of Arun'Kid is generally believed (by myself included) to be one of the best "starter" adventures going. The only modification I would make would be to remove the maze portion as it's a little too meta for me, but others may like it.