Actions of good

[Balor01]

I am currently watching "Lovely bones" movie, nothing has happened yet, still it made me think enough to post here. In D&D there are angels. Say, I am a NG solar, am all deific and stuff. Would it not be one of my primary tasks to prevent suffering of children? (like peek into the future and prevent such stuff) Concidering, this is one of most horrendous acts possible.

Anyone in doubt, take a peek at the flick. :smallsmile:

[Herbstfarben]

You found a problem which exists in real religious debates (millenia old and so on). D&D which is arguably simpler than theolothingy is pretty bad at answering this.

PS: I don't remember angels in the Lovely Bones.

[AslanCross]

I am currently watching "Lovely bones" movie, nothing has happened yet, still it made me think enough to post here. In D&D there are angels. Say, I am a NG solar, am all deific and stuff. Would it not be one of my primary tasks to prevent suffering of children? (like peek into the future and prevent such stuff) Concidering, this is one of most horrendous acts possible.

Anyone in doubt, take a peek at the flick. :smallsmile:

This is the Problem of Evil, which has been debated for ages in philosophy and theology. I'd rather not get into this, but I think in D&D it's pretty clear: "Yes, it's a problem, which is why there are churches of good gods who are opposing the crazy and wicked things that mortals do. As a Solar, my job is to keep the evil of the Abyss and the Nine Hells from spilling over ALL THE WAY into the Material Plane."

The armies of the Upper Planes are outnumbered by the armies of the Abyss. By how much, we do not know. And that's ONLY the Abyss. There's the Nine Hells too. They've got their hands tied---it's up to mortals to set the wrong things on the Material Plane right.

That's why the Material Plane needs heroes.

That's why we play D&D. (and why I never run Evil campaigns)

[Whammydill]

This is the Problem of Evil, which has been debated for ages in philosophy and theology. I'd rather not get into this, but I think in D&D it's pretty clear: "Yes, it's a problem, which is why there are churches of good gods who are opposing the crazy and wicked things that mortals do. As a Solar, my job is to keep the evil of the Abyss and the Nine Hells from spilling over ALL THE WAY into the Material Plane."

The armies of the Upper Planes are outnumbered by the armies of the Abyss. By how much, we do not know. And that's ONLY the Abyss. There's the Nine Hells too. They've got their hands tied---it's up to mortals to set the wrong things on the Material Plane right.

That's why the Material Plane needs heroes.

That's why we play D&D. (and why I never run Evil campaigns)


Couldn't have said it better myself. Extra-planar beings are likely busy with whatever agendas are set to them on their respective planes. Likely keeping those agendas out of the material plane or vice versa.

[Apollo1776]

This is the Problem of Evil, which has been debated for ages in philosophy and theology. I'd rather not get into this, but I think in D&D it's pretty clear: "Yes, it's a problem, which is why there are churches of good gods who are opposing the crazy and wicked things that mortals do. As a Solar, my job is to keep the evil of the Abyss and the Nine Hells from spilling over ALL THE WAY into the Material Plane."

The armies of the Upper Planes are outnumbered by the armies of the Abyss. By how much, we do not know. And that's ONLY the Abyss. There's the Nine Hells too. They've got their hands tied---it's up to mortals to set the wrong things on the Material Plane right.

That's why the Material Plane needs heroes.

That's why we play D&D. (and why I never run Evil campaigns)

The Abyss has infinite layers so technically the army of evil is endless.

[PersonMan]

The Abyss has infinite layers so technically the army of evil is endless.

Infinite space =/= infinite inhabitants.

Take Russia and Canada for example, large land areas, but mostly uninhabited. What if most of the Abyss was like this? A few hundred inhabited layers while the rest are home to a small number of demons trying to survive/kill eachother rather than run around on the Material Plane doing random things.

[PhoenixRivers]

Infinite space =/= infinite inhabitants.

Take Russia and Canada for example, large land areas, but mostly uninhabited. What if most of the Abyss was like this? A few hundred inhabited layers while the rest are home to a small number of demons trying to survive/kill eachother rather than run around on the Material Plane doing random things.

If you have infinite layers, and they each have a few demons, you have infinite demons.

[AslanCross]

The Abyss has infinite layers so technically the army of evil is endless.

I'm aware of that. It's why I didn't give any specific ratio. That only serves to illustrate my point on the Problem of Evil in D&D: The good outsiders have their hands tied fighting the metaphysical manifestations of evil. It's up to the PCs to fight on the Material Plane.

[JonestheSpy]

It never really seemed that difficult to me.

The Prime Material is neutral territory (politically, not alignmentwise). Outsiders can only directly interfere when summoned or evoked in some other way. Its inhabitants are supposed to choose their own paths, not be led around on a tether. Y'know, the whole "free will" thing.

Being Evil, the fiends try and get around this when ever they can - tempting mortals to summon them, finding ways to stick around after they should have gone back to Hell, that sort of thing.. That means that the forces of Good usually only directly manifest after Evil has begun mucking things up.

[Sydonai]

You are forgeting that demons kill eachother all the time, devils kill demons, Yoguloths work for the highest bidder, Inevitables maintain the status quo, Slaadi destroy everything they can, and their are three different races of angels all working together. That is not counting the unafiliated outsiders.

[Yuki Akuma]

Good Outsiders would stop suffering and Evil wherever they go, but there's only so many of them on the Material Plane at a time that it doesn't make much of a difference.

And the world you're on right now isn't the only world in the Material Plane, anyway. The Material is just as infinite as any of the other planes.

[Sydonai]

This world is explicitly off-limits to planar travel by RAW, so that explains why you didn't see a Sword Archon dicing Adolf or Stalin

[Balor01]

@Herbstfarben
Nope, I did not say there were angels in LB. Movie just made me think.

On topic: But inability to intervene on Material plane - would that not drive absolutely LG angels mad? I mean, an angel realises there is some brutal child molestation happening on MP ... how to weigh this against demons laying siege to angelic city. LG can not operate on "lesser evil" concepts as most humans can.

[PhoenixRivers]

@Herbstfarben
Nope, I did not say there were angels in LB. Movie just made me think.

On topic: But inability to intervene on Material plane - would that not drive absolutely LG angels mad? I mean, an angel realises there is some brutal child molestation happening on MP ... how to weigh this against demons laying siege to angelic city. LG can not operate on "lesser evil" concepts as most humans can.

They can operate on the "there's a lot of evil everywhere" concept.

They realize they can only do so much. They go where they can, to do what they can, and they do all they can, but they know that doing some things can have disastrous consequences, especially with the devils, who have all sorts of contracts and agreements. They're big on manipulating divine law.

[Amphetryon]

Good operates by sending scions of goodness to battle the forces of Evil. In D&D, those forces are called 'the heroes' rather than 'the Solars.'

There's a very old proverb, variously attributed, that addresses the concept:

"[Unnamed supernatural being], why is there so much suffering in the world? Why don't you do something to mitigate it?"

'I did; I sent you.'

Sounds like a reasonable credo for a Paladin, Crusader, or Incarnate, IMO.

[KillianHawkeye]

The Prime Material is neutral territory (politically, not alignmentwise).

It actually is mildly neutral aligned.

[kamikasei]

LG can not operate on "lesser evil" concepts as most humans can.

I don't see why not.

More obviously, I can see why a CR 23 Solar might look at a bunch of humans being vile to one another on the Material, and a horde of demons invading one or another Heaven, and say that the latter is where he should direct his efforts since the former can be dealt with by less powerful beings. If two things both need doing, you focus on the one that only you can do.

[Optimystik]

This world is explicitly off-limits to planar travel by RAW, so that explains why you didn't see a Sword Archon dicing Adolf or Stalin

Judging from the trends of the Hitler's Time Planar Travel Exemption Act (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekz83hawz?from=Main.HitlersTimeTravelExemptio nAct), I'd say any attempt by a Sword Archon to do that would just result in Hitler gaining Asmodeus' services.

[AslanCross]

@Herbstfarben
Nope, I did not say there were angels in LB. Movie just made me think.

On topic: But inability to intervene on Material plane - would that not drive absolutely LG angels mad? I mean, an angel realises there is some brutal child molestation happening on MP ... how to weigh this against demons laying siege to angelic city. LG can not operate on "lesser evil" concepts as most humans can.

Well, they obviously are, as you don't see Solars incinerating every single petty thief out there. If sexual predators knew that immensely powerful beings would come in to police them, they'd kick the habit pretty quickly.

Also I don't think the celestials are defending themselves. They're making either preemptive strikes against fiends or keeping them from hitting the Material.

[Sydonai]

@Herbstfarben
Nope, I did not say there were angels in LB. Movie just made me think.

On topic: But inability to intervene on Material plane - would that not drive absolutely LG angels mad? I mean, an angel realises there is some brutal child molestation happening on MP ... how to weigh this against demons laying siege to angelic city. LG can not operate on "lesser evil" concepts as most humans can.

Simple solution, they tell a paladin/s about it, paladin/s comes down on molestors like the wrath of god. That is how the legal system is supposed to work in this world. so Paladins/Clerics="Legal Enforcers".

[Sydonai]

Judging from the trends of the Hitler's Time Planar Travel Exemption Act (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekz83hawz?from=Main.HitlersTimeTravelExemptio nAct), I'd say any attempt by a Sword Archon to do that would just result in Hitler gaining Asmodeus' services.

If one side comes here then they ALL get to come here, do you really want to see Mephistopheles and Gra'zzt running for president of the U.S..

[Sydonai]

Well, they obviously are, as you don't see Solars incinerating every single petty thief out there. If sexual predators knew that immensely powerful beings would come in to police them, they'd kick the habit pretty quickly.

Also I don't think the celestials are defending themselves. They're making either preemptive strikes against fiends or keeping them from hitting the Material.

"You are forgeting that demons kill eachother all the time, devils kill demons, Yoguloths work for the highest bidder, Inevitables maintain the status quo, Slaadi destroy everything they can, and their are three different races of angels all working together. That is not counting the unafiliated outsiders. "

And you are right, they are protecting the dead souls that reside in the heavons, not themselves.
edit:Triple-post ftw

[JonestheSpy]

I never really bought into the whole idea of the Upper Planes being under constant threat from the Lower ones. The vast majority of the struggles happen on the Material Plane, through intermediaries. Just makes more sense to me that way. The whole "Evil is so much more powerful than Good" thing just struck me as a bunch of gamers wanting to be all grimdark, not a terribly interesting cosmological model.

As for the suffering of the little children, remember we're talking about a system that explicitly says there is existence after death. People who suffer horribly in life can be comforted, healed, etc in the heavens. So it's not really the same as if a good mortal witnessed such horrible things and did nothing.

[Apollo1776]

As for the suffering of the little children, remember we're talking about a system that explicitly says there is existence after death. People who suffer horribly in life can be comforted, healed, etc in the heavens. So it's not really the same as if a good mortal witnessed such horrible things and did nothing.

Yeah, imagine an afterlife where Celestia is completely overrun with demons and devils of every kind.

You forget that the Abyss is endless. It is even speculated that the Abyss spawns demons into existence itself. So basically the Abyss has an endless supply of demons. So yeah, good is in quite the pickle.

Also, the Knights of the Chalice are demon slayers, so it isn't like the deities of the upper planes aren't doing all they can to stop them.

[Optimystik]

I never really bought into the whole idea of the Upper Planes being under constant threat from the Lower ones. The vast majority of the struggles happen on the Material Plane, through intermediaries. Just makes more sense to me that way. The whole "Evil is so much more powerful than Good" thing just struck me as a bunch of gamers wanting to be all grimdark, not a terribly interesting cosmological model.

On the contrary; I see it as a great justification for why the material isn't constantly being meddled with. If Heaven uses most of its resources keeping the demons in check, it explains why Solars aren't down on the material telling us all how to behave, or slaying that dragon in our stead.


As for the suffering of the little children, remember we're talking about a system that explicitly says there is existence after death. People who suffer horribly in life can be comforted, healed, etc in the heavens. So it's not really the same as if a good mortal witnessed such horrible things and did nothing.

That is certainly a good justification; but they don't explicitly intervene when evil creatures are doing bad things to souls either - Soul Binding them for sale for example, or slapping Helms of Opposite Alignment on paladins. So there are gaps it doesn't cover.

[JonestheSpy]

You forget that the Abyss is endless. It is even speculated that the Abyss spawns demons into existence itself. So basically the Abyss has an endless supply of demons. So yeah, good is in quite the pickle.

Also, the Knights of the Chalice are demon slayers, so it isn't like the deities of the upper planes aren't doing all they can to stop them.

No, I didn't forget, I just have a different view. All planes are infinite. The Abyss may have infinite variety, but not more capacity.

And I didn't say that the Good Outsiders don't fight demons, I said I don't go for the "HEAVEN IS UNDER CONSTANT SIEGE OH NO!" thing, and that most of the time the two sides don't come into direct conflict.

Again, I prefer the whole approach of "Free will and letting mortals take care of themselves as much as possible" vs "Solars would be solving everything if they weren't fighting fiends all the time" thing.

Obviously, anyone can have their campaign cosmology be whatever they like.

edit: As for Optimystik's thoughts about actual souls - well, I see those as very rare, and would be the type of exception that could cause Upper Planers to get involved. And regarding things that arbitrarily mess with alignments like the Helms - I just think those are lame. I've never used one in a campaign, and I doubt I ever will. if I was forced to justify tem I'd probably say that they were a kind of magical compulsion forcing the victims to act in a certain way, and the soul would be no more guilty than tey would be for actions made while under a Domination spell. A soul would be rewarded/punished because of their choices, after all, not circumstances forced on them against their will.

[AslanCross]

And I didn't say that the Good Outsiders don't fight demons, I said I don't go for the "HEAVEN IS UNDER CONSTANT SIEGE OH NO!" thing, and that most of the time the two sides don't come into direct conflict.

Again, I prefer the whole approach of "Free will and letting mortals take care of themselves as much as possible" vs "Solars would be solving everything if they weren't fighting fiends all the time" thing.



I'm not saying the heavens are constantly surrounded by endless waves of demons either, but since the angels were created as a response to the spontaneous arrival of the demons, I do think it makes a lot of sense to see angels primarily as warriors instead of bureaucrats. (Besides, what to Chaotic Good outsiders do if they don't fight? Party for all eternity? :smallconfused:)

I think the way the celestials are statted out shows that they're pretty much made for war.

I do agree with the free will thing, though. I don't think the "Eternal Warrior" and "Mortals should solve their own problems" are necessarily mutually exclusive ideas. Since the removal of free will is consistent with D&D's concept of evil, even lawful good outsiders would support it as an important gift to mortals no matter what the cosmology is superficially like, even if their primary function is to keep the demons from consuming everything.