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Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 12:45 PM
This is 3.5 by the way.


In a campaign I'm running, a local lord keeps a large retinue of knights at his disposal. Just now, his most prosperous hamlet has been burned to the ground while most of the knights were away (policing the roads for bandits).

About 30 or so these knights now have no land to protect, and the one responsible for the fire is a lowly farmer. Looking for justice, these knights are now roaming the land, punishing anybody they feel they can hold responsible, except for themselves.

One of the groups they'll be holding responsible is my party of PCs, comprised mostly of fighter types.

I am seeking a little bit of help statting out my roving lynch mob of disenfranchised knights. I want the whole group of 30 to be impossible to beat, but a smaller group of 3-7 to be a tough challenge.

I want them to use knightly tactics, but I don't want each knight to be a cookie cutter. I'd prefer to have every knight be an individual, but that's clearly not feasible. Instead, I think I'm going to have a few different "types" of knights. Maybe a couple mounted tramplers, a couple pole arm users, a couple sword and board types, a spirited charger or two.

And my session is Saturday Morning. I don't think I'm going to have much time to work on this tomorrow, so I need this to be done fast! Any help you guys could give me in statting out my lynch mob would be great! tactical suggestions are welcome.

Thanks!


The Campaign Log (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8295856)

Townopolis
2010-04-15, 01:11 PM
For classes, I would use a mix of knights, warblades, marshals, and crusaders. Paladins are a bit too divine and imply too much goodness (crusaders can just be LN).

Warblades make good TWFers with the Iron Heart tactical feat. They also make decent 2H fighters. You can give a warblade one level of spirit lion totem barbarian and then run juicy TWF goodness with lots of white raven. They can also just run lots of DM and TC while TWFing. 2H warblades usually stick with WR, IH, and SD.

Crusaders are usually good with S&B + lots of devoted spirit (I especially like the "give your shield bonus to your ally" maneuver). They also do well with polearms.

Knights also favor S&B and are also good for mounted lancers.

Marshals are support, of course. I don't have much advice for building one, but they're worth a look.

With 2 warblade builds, 2 crusader builds, 1 Marshal build, and possibly 2 Knight builds you have 7 basic types. Adjusting martial adepts is easy with maneuvers and general discipline preferences. Knights are harder to diversify.

Marshals can be made much more variable by using the martial variant (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19528454/Sublime_Way_Variant_Marshal,_ala_Tempest_Stormwind ), allowing them to be just as customizable as any other martial adept.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-15, 03:10 PM
For tactics, unfortunately D&D kind of limits melee types to one of two roles: damage or battlefield control. Your roving band of disenfranchised knights (by the way, glad to hear the Silverstar is going well!) really will inevitably find themselves either standing on a front line, keeping the PCs from damaging them, or alternately charging around and dishing out damage to the PCs. Any variations in their build will allow them to perform one of these two roles with variable effectiveness. A third (non-combat) Knight-y role could be tracking/foraging- I'd be fine to include an occasional ranger type with a band of mobile warriors to provide logistical support.

I've used melee organizations before, and I tended to find that if you define where a character falls in terms of their job, their build tends to almost make itself. To branch things out a bit and help you, I'll offer a few suggestions, basically elaborating on Lordsmooth's work.

The S&B Knight builds itself. Same with the lancer, their feats are obvious. You've made one already.

The S&B Crusader benefits a lot from the Devoted Spirit discipline, especially the shield block maneuver that allow it to give an adjacent ally his shield bonus. He is a Con-focused build. His job is to force enemies to attack him, while staying in a healing stance, attacking with the Stone Power feat at its maximum, and soaking damage like a king.

Have at least one White Raven warblade, probably the unit's subcommander or second-in-charge. His maneuvers are chosen to help his allies coordinate attacks, change their places on a battlefield by granting them free move actions, and modifying their initiative.

Use a Marshall if you have the book, again for the free move actions (moving the chargers into position to attack) and to give out his Charisma bonus as a buff to all his team.

A ranger or two can provide tracking, the ability for the unit to forage for its own self-sufficiency, and ranged combat support, likely in the form of mounted archery. If I were an army commander, I would attach such a person to every single unit I commissioned. Probably one for every five-ten other warriors.

More than one bard is redundant, but having one attached to a unit for morale purposes, and to chronicle their events, sounds like a good idea. He could even just be a squire to one of the other knights, a loyal servant who stuck with his displaced Lord, who could serve as a go-between with the PCs, able to talk to them on their own level without the usual condescension one might expect from a knight.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 03:23 PM
Wow, thank for the help so far, guys!

I am not a Tome of Battle hold-out like some people, but my mastery of the book is not quite there. I feel it would be too labor intensive for me as DM to run multiple ToB characters, considering my grasp of what each manuever does is middling at best, and I would have to track the manuevers readied/granted/expended for every single ToB character I run.

Any advice on streamlining this, or getting more bang for my non-nine-swords buck?

What do you think about making the "leader" a level 6 marshal with Martial Study 3 times and Martial Stance once?

jiriku
2010-04-15, 03:39 PM
Nonmartial classes with martial study and martial stance work really well. I use them very heavily and am pleased with the result. You'll really appreciate not having to keep track of maneuver recharge methods, and one to three maneuvers plus a stance is more than enough for the short lifespan of your typical NPC opponent.

Edit: Simple stances with an always-on benefit that requires no bookkeeping, like punishing stance or flame's blessing, are especially good for large combats. you can figure these stances into the NPCs stat block and then forget about them, leaving yourself free to manage other things during combat.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 04:08 PM
OK, here is the "Leader Knight's" Stat block.



Leader Knight

Human Marshal 6

36 HP
AC 21 (+8 Armor, +2 Shield, +1 Dex)
BAB +4 (Grap +6)
Attack: Masterwork LS +8(9 mounted) d8+2

Saves: Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +5

Feats:

Martial Study: Vanguard Strike
Martial Study: Leading the Attack
Martial Stance: Iron Guard's Glare
Martial Study: Tactical Strike


Marshal Abilities:
Minor Auras:
Motivate Str (Str Checks)
Over the Top (Charge Damage)
Watchful Eye (Ref Saves)

Major Aura:
Motivate Attack (Attack Rolls)
Motivate Urgency (Land Speed)

Grant Move 1/day

Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Handle Animal, Knowledge (Local) 9 ranks each for +12 on all (15 dip, 11 ride)


The Outdoorsman Knight


Hunter Knight

Human Ranger 4

HP 32
BAB +4 (Grap +6)
AC: 17 (+4 Armor, +3 Dex)
Attack: Masterwork composit LB (+9, or +7/+7, -2 if mount is double moving) d8+1

Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +3

Feats:
Flaw (Slow) Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Track (Bonus)
Rapid Shot (Bonus)
Mounted Combat
Mounted Archery

Abilities:
Favored Enemy, Human +2
Distacting Shot
Wild Empathy

1/day CLW

Skills:
Climb +9
Handle Animal +10
Heal +8
Stealth +10
Survival +8
Search +7
Spot +8


Tank Knight


Tank Knight

Human Knight 4

HP: 47
BAB +4 (Grap +7)
AC: 21/2 (+8 Armor, +2(3) Shield, +1 Dex)
Attack: Masterwork Long Sword +9 (10 if mounted) d8+3

Saves: Fort +5 Ref +2 Will +4

Feats:
Mounted Combat
Martial Study: Crusader's Strike (Heal d6+2)
Martial Stance: Martial Spirit (Heal 2 each successful attack)
Stone Power

Abilities:
Fighting Challenge (+1 attack, damage and will save vs. target)
Test of Mettle (DC 14)
Bulwark of Defense



Rank and File



Calvery Chargers

Human Fighter 2


HP: 19
BAB: +2 (Grap +5)
AC: 19 (+8 Armor, +1 Dex)
Attack: Masterwork Lance (+5, 7 if charging) d8+7, 3d8+21 if Charging

Saves: Fort: +5, Ref +1, Will +0


Feats:
Mounted Combat
Ride-By Attack
Spirited Charge
Power Attack



Trampling Chargers

Human Knight 3

HP: 26
BAB +3 (Grap +4)
AC: 20 (+7 Armor, +1 Dex, +2 Shield)

Attack: Lance +4 (d8+1)


Feats:
Mounted Combat
Trample
Combat Reflexes
Stand Still (Ref save DC 10+damage)

Abilities:
Bulwark of Defense
Armor Mastery (medium)
Fighting Challenge)


OK, Now I am a little worried that these guys will destroy my 3rd level party.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-15, 05:09 PM
Your comment about running multiple ToB characters makes total sense, I concede that tracking maneuvers for one character is a pain, let alone over a dozen. A computer could do it, maybe, but you've got a game to run... and, honestly, the times I've run multiple Crusaders as an NPC hit squad, I ended up mostly defaulting to full attacks. Too much of a hassle.

Your builds are looking good, especially for one-shot NPCs. I'd love to be in this game. But you definitely need a lancer. Simple enough to build. Perhaps,

Human Fighter 4
Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge (Regular and Human bonus)
Power Attack, Martial Study (some Iron Heart strike), Martial Stance (Punishing Stance) (from fighter bonus)

Power attack on this warrior isn't nearly as scary as it could be, due to the fact that he'll likely be using his weapons all one-handed, and the Martial feats give him a little flavour over a straight charger.

Or a little more exotic?

Human Fighter 2/Scout 1

Spirited Charge tree because it's the bomb, Skirmish to add a little extra punch to your ride-by lancings, and grab Mounted Archery and Rapid Shot with your fighter bonus feats. You can dish out tons of damage no matter where you are on the battlefield, strafe your enemies with multiple Skirmish-enhanced arrows a round, and when the time comes to close to melee, drop your bow and draw your lance.

A Bard 2 or 3 can use the Inspirational Boost spell (SpC) to enhance the entire unit's combat stats by +2 Morale (probably doesn't stack with the Marshall but it would allow him to switch his auras to things other than attacks and damage).

EDIT: Riiiight... your PCs are level 3... this will annihilate them.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 06:41 PM
Perhaps I'll leave out the "tank" knight and the ranger and just have a leader and his rank and file dudes.

If I run two combats with the knights, I'll use the ranger and the tank in place of the leader.

avr
2010-04-15, 08:58 PM
A massed lance charge can, with a very little luck, result in a TPK for a 3rd level party. Be careful to give the party a chance to realise it's going to happen and that they have a tactic which can stop it.

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 09:23 PM
This is very true. The damage on the lances stack up fast. I'll try to set up the battlefield in such a way that they can break the charge with obstacles and such.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-15, 09:24 PM
Well, frankly, a roving band of even 30 1st-level warriors with the basic gear of knights would likely decimate all but the most well optimized 3rd-level party. Perhaps instead of thinking of these guys as a series of encounters, you could introduce them as a flavour element for at least a session or two. The PCs learn of this group, possibly from an initial encounter with one of them, or maybe a commoner whose livelihood had been destroyed by this gang of holier-than-thou hooligans. Henceforth, the PCs know they are being pursued by a very, very scary force of deposed warriors-turned-murderers, and could spend the next level or two learning about this force, gathering allies from the chaotic countryside, and concocting a plan to lure the lynch mob into a trap. The final encounter with the mob could be very intellectual, trying to persuade them to lay down arms, or incite them to anger such that they make some pivotal mistake.

If you have clever players, of course.


I'll try to set up the battlefield in such a way that they can break the charge with obstacles and such.

Good lord, no band of lancers would allow themselves to fight on a battlefield optimized for breaking a charge! Don't do this yourself, encourage the players to force such an engagement!

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-15, 09:33 PM
This could go down a couple of ways.

First, the PCs could return to the burned out village. They'd encounter virtually the entire force of 30 or so knights, attempting to bury the dead and get their affairs in order. When the knights encounter the PCs here, they will be angry and heart broken, and start hurling accusations at the PCs.

The players should know they have no hope of facing down 30 armed knights, especially since they fought one knight last session and almost died. They will be forced to engage the knights on an intellectual level, which should be possible since not all of them are bad people, and the PCs really didn't do anything wrong. They merely made the same mistake the Knights did.

Once they convince the leader of the knights of their innocence, they can warily part ways. From there, I am thinking a splinter group of more extreme knights can sneak away at night and ambush the PCs/trying them in a kangaroo court by bonfire light.

Another way this could all go down involves the PCs staying away from the village. In this case, an organized lynch mob of five or so knights might come to the PCs specifically to air their grievances. This could end in combat, or not, but I certainly will put the PCs fates in their own hands.

I do intend to make the band of knights a recurring "character" as the campaign goes on, perhaps even up to level 10 or so.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-15, 09:51 PM
There are so many good ideas in your last post I can't even bring myself to try to summarize them. Let's hope your players have a modicrum of awesome among them.

As far as making the band a recurring feature of the campaign... well, frankly, the best way to do that is play them intelligently. Have a lot of emotion among them for their recent and grievous loss, of course, but at least a few who are willing and able to speak out, loudly, in opposition to any ridiculous assertion that any extremist makes against the PCs. The PCs are actually, so far, the good guys and are likely feeling pretty crappy about how things are going, and since you're running the Hellstar, there's a lot more of that to come. Have the group contain a few folks who are willing to believe the PCs and genuinely want to help them, in addition to the ones that want the PCs killed for their (perceived) involvement in the recent destruction. I'm sure this is something you've already thought of, but if the PCs get a chance to talk to the folks in this band, and get mixed reactions to their story... it just could offer so many, SO many possible opportunities for campaign advancement. The one who most strongly supports them assassinated somewhere down the line. The one who most strongly resents them... face-heel turns and recognises their place in the battles to come. Get yourself some tear-jerker moments out of this band of miscellaneous heartbroken heroes! :smallwink:

Human Paragon 3
2010-04-16, 06:48 AM
Thanks! I hope my PCs are buckled in. They know I run very difficult encounters and expect real roleplaying, and it's a good group, so this should be fun.

I've updated the main thread with the info from this one. All further queries should go there!