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Scorpions__
2010-04-15, 02:01 PM
When you raise your intelligence score, do your skill points go up? I've never done it that way, except when you level, you get skill points accordingly, but you don't retroactively get skill points, is this correct?

Also, if you have Spell Mastery, would your spell list for that feat go up?





DM[F]R

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-15, 02:03 PM
Skill points are not retroactive, no. You do not suddenly gain skill points when your Intelligence score increases.

Johel
2010-04-15, 02:09 PM
I don't know for RAW.

For the sake of sanity, if you build a high level character who somehow got to increase his Intelligence somewhere offscreen in his backstory, just consider the current intelligence score and that's it. Sure, he'll get a few more skill points but do you really want to calculate how many skill points your 20th level wizard got at each of his previous levels ?

If you build a character at level 1, play and level up to the top, then I'd say that no, he doesn't get retroactive skill points : for each level you get through, you just do ([Current Int modifier] + [Class skill point]) skill points and that's it.

Ernir
2010-04-15, 02:14 PM
Also, if you have Spell Mastery, would your spell list for that feat go up?

Nope, not that either.


I don't know for RAW.

For the sake of sanity, if you build a high level character who somehow got to increase his Intelligence somewhere offscreen in his backstory, just consider the current intelligence score and that's it. Sure, he'll get a few more skill points but do you really want to calculate how many skill points your 20th level wizard got at each of his previous levels ?

If you build a character at level 1, play and level up to the top, then I'd say that no, he doesn't get retroactive skill points : for each level you get through, you just do ([Current Int modifier] + [Class skill point]) skill points and that's it.

Huh.

I calculate it every time. Part of the fun. :smalltongue:

Yora
2010-04-15, 02:18 PM
I'm quite sure it's RAW that you don't get skill points for past levels when you raise Intelligence. It's explicitly stated somewhere, probably in the PHB.

Flickerdart
2010-04-15, 02:20 PM
Additionally, temporary bonuses (such as a Headband of Intellect) don't count either, so you can't pass one around on level-up for skill point goodies. :smallbiggrin:

Kantolin
2010-04-15, 02:45 PM
For RAW, which has been stated multiple times but not specifically outlined:


When an ability score changes, all attributes associated with that score change accordingly. A character does not retroactively get additional skill points for previous levels if she increases her intelligence.

Found on: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm That page, at the very bottom.

Personally, though, I just let intelligence work retroactively. This mildly boosts wizards and other int-based classes, but it also helps people who are contemplating bumping up their intelligence for more skills for any reason.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-15, 02:47 PM
For RAW, which has been stated multiple times but not specifically outlined:



Found on: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/thebasics.htm That page, at the very bottom.

Personally, though, I just let intelligence work retroactively. This mildly boosts wizards and other int-based classes, but it also helps people who are contemplating bumping up their intelligence for more skills for any reason.


Which means Spell Mastery is retroactive. Much more useful.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 02:48 PM
Which means Spell Mastery is retroactive. Much more useful.
That actually IS rather useful. I am pleased, since it makes my favorite character ever even better! :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2010-04-15, 02:49 PM
Personally, though, I just let intelligence work retroactively. This mildly boosts wizards and other int-based classes, but it also helps people who are contemplating bumping up their intelligence for more skills for any reason.

It also make designing characters at higher levels much easier.

BEEP

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-15, 02:49 PM
That actually IS rather useful. I am pleased, since it makes my favorite character ever even better! :smallbiggrin:

Considering two instances of the feat gets you upwards of 26 spells (or just 20), and Uncanny Forethought is just that damn good...

Ernir
2010-04-15, 02:52 PM
Which means Spell Mastery is retroactive. Much more useful.

I read Spell Mastery to be an instantaneous benefit, though. :smallconfused:

I'm not saying I wouldn't rule it to be retroactive for purposes of making Spell Mastery more useful, but really, it looks like a one-time thing to me.

arguskos
2010-04-15, 02:53 PM
Considering two instances of the feat gets you upwards of 26 spells (or just 20), and Uncanny Forethought is just that damn good...
More that it makes Magelord crazy good (like it wasn't already).

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-15, 03:01 PM
I read Spell Mastery to be an instantaneous benefit, though. :smallconfused:

I'm not saying I wouldn't rule it to be retroactive for purposes of making Spell Mastery more useful, but really, it looks like a one-time thing to me.

Except it's a benefit from your Int score. It may cost a feat, but you wouldn't do the same to Combat Reflexes would you?

Scorpions__
2010-04-15, 03:50 PM
Additionally, temporary bonuses (such as a Headband of Intellect) don't count either, so you can't pass one around on level-up for skill point goodies. :smallbiggrin:

Wait, what? Really? Even if you wear it all the time? What about Amulets of Health, and rolling hitpoints?





DM[F]R

Mauther
2010-04-15, 04:04 PM
Wait, what? Really? Even if you wear it all the time? What about Amulets of Health, and rolling hitpoints?

DM[F]R

Again, I think he's talking about INT. So a headband of INT wouldn't give extra skill points. An Amulet of Health would not give you additional innate hit points, just temporary "real" hitpoints as long as the amulet is worn. Take off the amulet and the HPs go away.

DragoonWraith
2010-04-15, 04:06 PM
Huh.

I calculate it every time. Part of the fun. :smalltongue:
I do, but man, I hate doing it. Even worse than figuring out the maneuvers known of a higher level initiator (seriously, the swapping mechanic is awesome but it makes things so much more complicated when you get to high levels).

Endarire
2010-04-15, 04:16 PM
Ramus is a level 3 human Wizard with 21 INT. He gets 7 skill points per level.

When he hits level 4, his base INT increases by 1 to 22. He now gets 8 skill points per level. He gains no retroactive skill points.

Were he to read a tome of INT that increased his INT modifier, or get a wish or few to boost his INT mod, he would also get more skill points starting that level. No retroactive skill boosts.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-15, 04:26 PM
For the sake of sanity, if you build a high level character who somehow got to increase his Intelligence somewhere offscreen in his backstory, just consider the current intelligence score and that's it. Sure, he'll get a few more skill points but do you really want to calculate how many skill points your 20th level wizard got at each of his previous levels ?

I always do it the hard way. Much more interesting, especially when you start throwing in the rampant prestige-classing I inevitably do with constantly shifting class skill lists and base skill points.

Nero24200
2010-04-15, 05:23 PM
Bumping intellegence does not grant retroactive skill points. It's likely this exists so that casting spells like Fox's Cunning or slipping on a headband of intellegect doesn't just suddenly grant you free skill points (which can easily be swapped around simply by using another spell or slipping the headband off).

However, bonus skill points for actually raising the base score via levels...while not RAW, isn't exactly a game-altering or even remotely unreasonable house-rule.

AslanCross
2010-04-15, 05:28 PM
If you're willing to houserule that you retroactively gain skill points with Int increases, you'd better have to take the flipside into consideration: You lose skill points every time you get nailed with Int penalties, damage and drain. :smalleek: (After all, you lose HP every time your Con gets damaged.)

No, thank you.

Kosjsjach
2010-04-15, 06:03 PM
What if you simply gain retroactive skill points for permanent Int increases (like from level-ups, or Tomes)? Those benefits aren't going anywhere. And even if they do (ability drain), they can be restored (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm).

Gnaeus
2010-04-15, 06:28 PM
Pathfinder houserules that one. Perminant int increases give you retroactive skill points.

Also, in PF, a headband of Int has one associated skill for every +2, and when you put it on it gives you the use of the skill as if you had ranks = your level or HD.

Flickerdart
2010-04-15, 06:33 PM
Wait, what? Really? Even if you wear it all the time? What about Amulets of Health, and rolling hitpoints?
DM[F]R
You still get bonus HP, since HP changes dynamically with CON. But the Headband never gives you skill points.

Raging Gene Ray
2010-04-15, 06:42 PM
When you raise your intelligence score, do your skill points go up?

In Pathfinder (also known as 3.75), you DO get retroactive skill points. Furthermore, the Pathfinder version of the Headband of Intellect gives you max ranks in 1 skill per +2 bonus of the headband.

Andraste
2010-04-15, 06:44 PM
Except it's a benefit from your Int score. It may cost a feat, but you wouldn't do the same to Combat Reflexes would you?

Each time you do extra AoOs with combat reflexes, it's based on your dex mod.

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

Whereas with spell mastery it says that you choose the spells based on your int when you get the feat, and that from then on it applies to them.

Each time you take this feat, choose a number of spells equal to your Intelligence modifier. From that point on, you can prepare these spells without referring to a spellbook.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-15, 06:45 PM
In Pathfinder (also known as 3.75), you DO get retroactive skill points. Furthermore, the Pathfinder version of the Headband of Intellect gives you max ranks in 1 skill per +2 bonus of the headband.

Yes, but he said 3.5, not Pathfinder, making this post pointless. :smallsmile:

Gnaeus
2010-04-15, 06:49 PM
Pathfinder is essentially 3.5 + some houserules. When it makes a rule that is better than 3.5, it is worth noting.

Your hating on a better system is pointless, and kind of pathetic.

Ernir
2010-04-15, 06:57 PM
Except it's a benefit from your Int score. It may cost a feat, but you wouldn't do the same to Combat Reflexes would you?

No, I wouldn't do the same to Combat Reflexes, because Combat Reflexes doesn't specifically refer to the time of taking the feat.

What happens at the time of taking the Spell Mastery feat depends on your Int score. The benefit you gain from the feat (being able to prepare some of your spells without a spellbook), as well as I can read it, isn't.

Sir Homeslice
2010-04-15, 07:18 PM
Pathfinder is essentially 3.5 + some houserules. When it makes a rule that is better than 3.5, it is worth noting.
Nope. Pathfinder is largely irrelevant to discussions of 3.5e. It's exactly because it's 3.5e with houserules that mentioning how Pathfinder does it is about as ridiculous as walking into an Exalted thread and giving advice and then claiming that since they both use d10s that advice from one system is applicable to the other.

If the OP mentioned that he wanted to hear about Pathfinder he'd mention it. But he's talking about 3.5e. Not Pathfinder.


Your hating on a better system is pointless, and kind of pathetic.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5248/dean4.jpg

Anxe
2010-04-15, 09:20 PM
Are languages retroactive?

QuantumSteve
2010-04-15, 10:54 PM
Are languages retroactive?

Well, you can always use your extra skill points to buy ranks in Speak Language.

Flickerdart
2010-04-15, 11:13 PM
Are languages retroactive?
No. You have to spend the ranks after your character generation.

Mauther
2010-04-16, 03:22 PM
Pathfinder is essentially 3.5 + some houserules. When it makes a rule that is better than 3.5, it is worth noting.

Your hating on a better system is pointless, and kind of pathetic.

But your point requires that the rule has to be better than 3.5 to be worth noting. Since this ruling is needlessly complicated and completley illogical this would not be the case. "Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I've ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response was there anything that could even be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul!" - Host, Billy Madison:smallwink:

alisbin
2010-04-16, 03:35 PM
i used to play it as RAW, but i've houseruled for all my games that any permanent int change is retroactive (positive OR negative), but doesn't take effect until the next time you level. for negative change (again, only permanent) you simply don't gain skill points on level until your current skill point total is less then (level+3) x permanent int bonus.
for other stuff like spell mastery and base languages i rule that the effective mod is whatever you had when you got the feat/ability BUT i allow the PC to access training (GP cost and time) to bring the feat up to current bonus.
beyond the simpler calculations i think it just makes sense...

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-16, 03:53 PM
But your point requires that the rule has to be better than 3.5 to be worth noting.

Funny thing, several people, (me included) use it as an houserule. And, trust me, makes things better for us.

So, maybe, the rule could be useful for someone.

So, you know, one could point to the OP leaving to him the decision if is worthy.

Fiery Diamond
2010-04-16, 04:03 PM
Funny thing, several people, (me included) use it as an houserule. And, trust me, makes things better for us.

So, maybe, the rule could be useful for someone.

So, you know, one could point to the OP leaving to him the decision if is worthy.

This is a valid point.

Escheton
2010-04-16, 11:09 PM
This is a valid point.

I houserule that it isnt, it makes it easier for me.

Anxe
2010-04-17, 03:47 PM
Well, you can always use your extra skill points to buy ranks in Speak Language.

I didn't mean skill points. I meant bonus languages from high INT.

Thurbane
2010-04-17, 07:00 PM
No, I wouldn't do the same to Combat Reflexes, because Combat Reflexes doesn't specifically refer to the time of taking the feat.

What happens at the time of taking the Spell Mastery feat depends on your Int score. The benefit you gain from the feat (being able to prepare some of your spells without a spellbook), as well as I can read it, isn't.
I have to agree here. I can't back this up with RAW, but (to me) logic dictates that you would not get retro spells to Spell Mastery if your INT increases.

Does a Wizard who's INT increases suddenly get extra first level spells in his book?


A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice.