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sienn_sconn
2010-04-16, 03:53 PM
I have always been interested in alternate class features, but i'm also heavy into balance and fairness, so my question is:

Are these alternate ideas that I thought up fair and balanced?

Ranger Alternative class features
Not all rangers study particular creatures to stalk and kill, nor does every ranger overwhelm his enemies with a shower of arrows or a flurry of melee strikes. These alternative features represent the ranger who specializes in using one weapon to deadly effect and eliminating his opponents with a single shot or thrust of a blade.

Ability: Preferred Weapon
Level: 1, 5, 10, 15, 20
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not get the favored enemy class feature (or any variants of that class feature).
Benefit: At 1st level, you gain Weapon Focus as a bonus feat for a weapon of your choice.
At 5th level, you gain Weapon Specialization for a weapon for which you have selected the Weapon Focus feat, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
At 10th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus for the weapon for which you have selected Weapon Specialization, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
At 15th level, you gain Greater Weapon Specialization for the weapon for which you have selected Greater Weapon Focus, even if you do not meet the prerequisites.
AT 20th level, you gain Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy for the weapon for which you have selected Greater Weapon Specialization, even if you do not meet the prerequisites. (See Player’s Handbook II for Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy)

Ability: Sneak Attack
Level: 2, 6, 11
Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain the Combat Style class feature or any of the upgrades of that ability.
Benefit: Beginning at 2nd level, you deal an extra 1d6 points of damage when flanking an opponent or at any time when the target would be denied its Dexterity bonus. This extra damage applies to ranged attacks only if the target is within 30 feet. It increases to 2d6 at 6th level and 3d6 at 11th level. See the rogue class feature, page 50 of the Player’s Handbook. If you gain a sneak attack bonus from another source (such as levels of rogue), the bonuses on damage stack.

Ernir
2010-04-16, 04:02 PM
I'd do it the other way around. Replace the Combat Style feats with the Weapon Supremacy tree, and replace Favoured Enemy with SA damage.

Makes more sense to me to replace the bonus feats with different bonus feats, and the damage bonus with a different damage bonus.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-16, 04:07 PM
At a casual glance, without any serious numbercrunching, I'd put them both as balanced.
Focused Weapon is probably roughly the same power level as Favored Enemy, maybe a little weaker - trades large damage in specialized cases for a smaller consistent boost.
Sneak attack is extremely underpowered due to the slow advancement rate compared to rogues -and ninjas, and assassins, and nightsong thieves, and nearly every other precision damage class printed.

Anonymouswizard
2010-04-16, 04:13 PM
Homebrew?

Just saying: I think you have the wrong forum (could be wrong).

sienn_sconn
2010-04-16, 04:14 PM
I'd do it the other way around. Replace the Combat Style feats with the Weapon Supremacy tree, and replace Favoured Enemy with SA damage.

Makes more sense to me to replace the bonus feats with different bonus feats, and the damage bonus with a different damage bonus.

The reason i did it this way is because the Weapon Supremacy tree is bigger. To me it felt better to replace the more common features with the longer list. On the other hand, you have a good point with the replacement of feats with other feats and damage bonus replacing damage bonus. How would you suggest spreading out the Weapon Supremacy idea if i went along this other path that you have outlined?

Glyphstone, you forgot the part where i said not interested in rogues (and other precison based classes) gaining sneak attack faster or similar responses.

I do appreciate you thinking that the idea is balanced.

If it helps, this is an idea i would pitch to a DM to alter the Ranger, in reality i would take only 4 levels of ranger before beginning to prestige class, so i would only miss out on +1d6 of sneak attack before turning somewhere that doesn't gain sneak attack anyway.

AslanCross
2010-04-16, 05:44 PM
The Weapon Focus tree is balanced, though rather underpowered. Though it does trade away the Ranger's specialty in killing particular monsters with a smaller general bonus, so I think it's not that horrible, especially in a core-only game.

The Sneak Attack thing's pretty good, IMO. I've always wanted to make a ranger do sniping better than a rogue.

Draz74
2010-04-16, 06:05 PM
The Weapon Focus instead of Favored Enemy seems pretty balanced to me, maybe slightly on the weak side depending how often you would have run into your Favored Enemies. Until Level 20. Weapon Supremacy is awesome, and I'd much rather have the whole tree including Supremacy than have Favored Enemy.

The Sneak Attack option seems weak. Maybe make it +1d6/+3d6/+5d6?

The Glyphstone
2010-04-16, 06:19 PM
Glyphstone, you forgot the part where i said not interested in rogues (and other precison based classes) gaining sneak attack faster or similar responses.

I do appreciate you thinking that the idea is balanced.

.

I didn't forget anything - it's an inherent part of the analysis when you're asking for advice on variant class features, because those variants come from somewhere. +3d6 is a pitiful amount of damage to be giving up the free feats of combat styles, and would never be a good trade to make. It's "balanced" in terms of not being overpowering, but it's very underpowering.



If it helps, this is an idea i would pitch to a DM to alter the Ranger, in reality i would take only 4 levels of ranger before beginning to prestige class, so i would only miss out on +1d6 of sneak attack before turning somewhere that doesn't gain sneak attack anyway

At Ranger 4, you'd only have +1d6 sneak attack...so why not just dip a level in Rogue?

Honestly, I'd say keep the first one, it's good. Scrap the second one altogether, or at least revamp it to a more favorable progression - as written, it's weakening an already weak class, without even adding any significant flavor besides 'rogue lite'.

Draz has a good idea - keep it at the same progression total as real sneak classes, but reduce the increment bumbs - +2d6 every 4 levels, instead of +1d6 every 2 levels. That makes it a fair trade, but is still slightly weaker than a real rogue's sneak attack would be.

AslanCross
2010-04-16, 06:31 PM
The Sneak Attack option seems weak. Maybe make it +1d6/+3d6/+5d6?

On second thought, yeah. It might be a good idea to boost the progression this much at least. Considering that there are a great deal of monsters that are immune to sneaking, I don't really consider Sneak Attack to be that overpowering of an ability.

Draz74
2010-04-16, 06:42 PM
On second thought, yeah. It might be a good idea to boost the progression this much at least. Considering that there are a great deal of monsters that are immune to sneaking, I don't really consider Sneak Attack to be that overpowering of an ability.

On second thought from my end, it's still weak. After all, the Generic Classes system says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats) that three feats should be worth 9d6 sneak attack, not 5d6. Not sure what to recommend, though (since I don't actually think you should be handing out 9d6 sneak attack at Level 11).

The Glyphstone
2010-04-16, 06:50 PM
On second thought from my end, it's still weak. After all, the Generic Classes system says (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#bonusFeats) that three feats should be worth 9d6 sneak attack, not 5d6. Not sure what to recommend, though (since I don't actually think you should be handing out 9d6 sneak attack at Level 11).

Keep the progression going, the same way he did with the Favored Weapon bonus feats continuing past 11th?
2nd = 1d6
6th = 3d6
11 = 5d6
15 - 7d6
20th - 9d6

IonDragon
2010-04-16, 06:55 PM
Have you considered Skirmish (As per Scout from CAdv) rather than Sneak Attack? Rather than flanking or the opponent denied dex you have to have moved 10'+ that round. Just a thought considering Rangers are more (IMO) mobility based than *sneaky sneaky* based.

And in that vein, there's the Swift Hunter feat (CS) that IIRC loses you one Ranger level in exchange for full Scout level Skirmish bonus.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-16, 06:58 PM
As said, increase sneack attack and the rest is fine, IMO. Eyeballing, something like 6d6 maxed (but other people bringed in more argumented opinions).

sienn_sconn
2010-04-16, 06:59 PM
Have you considered Skirmish (As per Scout from CAdv) rather than Sneak Attack? Rather than flanking or the opponent denied dex you have to have moved 10'+ that round. Just a thought considering Rangers are more (IMO) mobility based than *sneaky sneaky* based.

And in that vein, there's the Swift Hunter feat (CS) that IIRC loses you one Ranger level in exchange for full Scout level Skirmish bonus.

The original idea i had was for a sniper build, hence sneak attack.

[quote=The_Glyphstone;8311639]I didn't forget anything - it's an inherent part of the analysis when you're asking for advice on variant class features, because those variants come from somewhere. +3d6 is a pitiful amount of damage to be giving up the free feats of combat styles, and would never be a good trade to make. It's "balanced" in terms of not being overpowering, but it's very underpowering.[QUOTE/]

You are correct, i am being short-sighted in not wanting that part of the analysis. You make a good point. Back to damage. Remember that the damage is being augmented by 6 points (i know, not a ton) for Wpn Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Weapon Mastery. However, these 6 points are applicable even when sneak attack is not. Also, if you look at it feat against feat, and damage bonus vs. damage bonus, you lose either 3 archery feats or 3 two wpn feats for 5 feats that incrementally increase attack and damage (albeit with one weapon), and even if a ranger has one favored enemy at +10, it's only against that one enemy. On 3d6, 10 points is average by the bell curve. True, many higher level monsters are immune to sneak attack, but the +4 attack and +6 damage applicable in all situations I think would more than make up the lack of the ability to sneak attack said immune creature.

[QUOTE]
At Ranger 4, you'd only have +1d6 sneak attack...so why not just dip a level in Rogue? [QUOTE/]

I don't want to lose BAB, hence the modification to ranger

[QUOTE
Honestly, I'd say keep the first one, it's good. Scrap the second one altogether, or at least revamp it to a more favorable progression - as written, it's weakening an already weak class, without even adding any significant flavor besides 'rogue lite'.

Draz has a good idea - keep it at the same progression total as real sneak classes, but reduce the increment bumbs - +2d6 every 4 levels, instead of +1d6 every 2 levels. That makes it a fair trade, but is still slightly weaker than a real rogue's sneak attack would be. [QUOTE/]

I hadn't thought of delaying the progression of sneak attack. Making it more powerful every once in while is about the same as increasing incrementally.

flabort
2010-04-16, 08:09 PM
yah, this needs to be moved to the Homebrew section. afterall, it says HOMEBREW right in the title.

sorry, I haven't looked at the OP, but I will when it's moved.

IonDragon
2010-04-16, 10:31 PM
The original idea i had was for a sniper build, hence sneak attack.

Sneak Attack at ranged requires them to be denied their Dex and to be within 30', that means if you don't down them in one shot, you won't be sniping at them for long.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-16, 11:34 PM
The Weapon Focus tree is balanced, though rather underpowered.

Weapon Focus is only balanced if you believe Weapon Finesse is overpowered. Or if you base all of your feats on Dodge.

Non-scaling bonuses are a bane in 3.5. Anyone who's ever played a Core Fighter 20 will tell you that after a few levels you run out of feats that you actually want, and have to switch to a different style to fill out all of your feats. The devs didn't catch on soon enough, and thus feats are all over the place (compare Improved Trip to Mobility, for example).

sienn_sconn
2010-04-17, 12:21 AM
Sneak Attack at ranged requires them to be denied their Dex and to be within 30', that means if you don't down them in one shot, you won't be sniping at them for long.

You are correct. I just put up a post called For Snipers, I have a Suggestion. It details a Revised Edition Star Wars PrC called Sharpshooter that gets long range sneak attack. This was the class that the sniper build would go into. Yes, the sneak attack variant given to this ranger is limited to 30 feet, but with magic and feats, plus the Sharpshooter class, the intent is gain close sniping ability first, then get into long range.

By the way, how can i set up a link so i can send people to this Sniper post?

Tavar
2010-04-17, 12:33 AM
You are correct. I just put up a post called For Snipers, I have a Suggestion. It details a Revised Edition Star Wars PrC called Sharpshooter that gets long range sneak attack. This was the class that the sniper build would go into. Yes, the sneak attack variant given to this ranger is limited to 30 feet, but with magic and feats, plus the Sharpshooter class, the intent is gain close sniping ability first, then get into long range.
There aren't any feats, spells, or items that let you do that, though. And if the only way to fulfill the intended purpose of a Base class is to go into a specific PrC, well then that's an exceedingly poorly designed base class.



By the way, how can i set up a link so i can send people to this Sniper post?

The FAQ link, next to the user CP link and the Members list link should have the answer.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-17, 12:40 AM
I always just replace Favored Enemy with a +2/+4/+6/+8/+10 bonus which always applies against every creature, regardless of type or subtype.

There are already some alternate combat styles (http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf) (page 100) to add into your list of options among archery or TWF. Strong-Arm is probably the best, granting Power Attack at 2, Improved Sunder at 6, and Great Cleave at 11.

sienn_sconn
2010-04-17, 12:58 AM
There aren't any feats, spells, or items that let you do that, though. And if the only way to fulfill the intended purpose of a Base class is to go into a specific PrC, well then that's an exceedingly poorly designed base class.

Long Range Sneak Attack (sneak attack as long as you suffer no range penalties and are using a ranged weapon) is a class feature of the Sharpshooter. Crossbow Sniper feat extends sneak attack to 60 feet. Sniper Shot spell allows your next ranged attack to be a sneak attack, regardless of distance.

Also, i never said that getting into Sharpshooter was the only way to fulfill this variant ranger (although it is what i would do). This variant works for anyone wielding any weapon (and let's be honest, most people have an idea of the weapon they want to use as soon as they start play). Anyone using this variant gets +4 attack and +6 damage with their preferred weapon, for free (although fighters can do the same thing. The Difference: they don't have as many skill points, although they do have heavier armor and more HP). Add to that +4 attack and +6 damage a little precision bonus (most melee fighters, if this variant goes that route will try to flank if they can. Thus they have the BAB to make sneak attack work more often while flanking.) No one gets shoehorned into being a sniper or a melee combatant. They get bonuses with their preferred weapon, and get some extra damage if they catch foes flat-footed or flanked. Thus, this variant can be fulfilled many ways: longbow, glaive, spiked chain, dagger, whip. . . the list is as long as the number of weapons ever made by Wizards or anyone else.

Tavar
2010-04-17, 02:26 AM
True. Though, as others have said, the damage that you currently gain is really, really pitiful. The weapon focus/specialization is bad, as is 3d6 SA.

sienn_sconn
2010-04-17, 11:50 AM
Alrighty, there seems to be a split along whether the weapon supremacy tree is better than favored enemy, but everyone seems to agree that the sneak attak needs to be improved.

Thanks, everyone, this has helped a lot.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-17, 12:11 PM
Aside from asking if this can be moved to Homebrew (bugs my OCD), I'd make a couple of points. There's this big debate on how to homebrew a decent Fighter. Most suggestions tend to parcel out more free feats (generally weapon specialisation) and make them better at their limited role, rather than face the key issues of their failure as defenders and lack of skill points. This seems to almost remedy those problems. As you've written it, my ranger can now take a level in Fighter, load up with full plate and a shield, and set to smacking enemies. The Sneak Attack just means that attempting to bypass him is dangerous because if you do and get flanked, especially by a rogue, you're taking a LOT of damage (and the Dragonfire Strike feat, with the right DM, means your sneak attack bypasses precision damage resistance). It also gives more skills and skill points over the Fighter. This effectively makes your ranger a replacement Fighter, due to all the bonus feats with ONE weapon.