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Zach J.
2010-04-16, 06:50 PM
Would a 6th level druid who is Wild Shaped into a black bear and has cast Flame Blade be able to make attacks with the Flame Blade and the rest of his natural weapons (i.e. other claw and bite) in a Full Attack or would he just be able to make the single attack with the Flame Blade?

Edit: I realize he wouldn't really be doing any more damage on average using a Flame Blade instead of two claw attacks at that level. I'm more curious than anything.

urbanpirate
2010-04-16, 07:36 PM
it seems you could use either the flame blade or natural attacks but not both in one round

The Dark Fiddler
2010-04-16, 07:38 PM
I think (didn't actually check... a bit too tired/lazy at the moment), but I think your natural attacks would be secondary (-5 penalty, only half Strength bonus and all that), and they would indeed be part of a full attack.

Zach J.
2010-04-16, 07:38 PM
Hmm, I was afraid of that but it seems to make the most sense. Oh well, thanks for answering my question. :)

Edit: Hmm, if that's the case Fiddler would one have to choose whether to make a secondary attack with the other claw or the bite or would they get to attack with both at the -5 penalty? I admit that I hope that this idea would work because a Flame Blade wielding bear seems really cool...

The Dark Fiddler
2010-04-16, 07:49 PM
Again, this is just going off of memory, but I'm pretty sure you get all of your natural attacks in a full attack, so you'd get both the Claw and Bite as secondary weapons with the Flame Blade as a primary.

Zach J.
2010-04-16, 07:54 PM
Hmm, cool. Thanks, Fiddler!

Runestar
2010-04-16, 08:51 PM
How would you wield the flameblade?

Zach J.
2010-04-16, 08:54 PM
Hmm, I was looking at the part of the spell that says "A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand" and took that to mean that you wouldn't actually be holding the blade, but I guess I overlooked the part that says you wield it like a scimitar. Oh well...

Edit: Hmm...would a druid who had wild shaped into an ape be able to wield the blade then?

Eldariel
2010-04-16, 08:59 PM
Edit: Hmm...would a druid who had wild shaped into an ape be able to wield the blade then?

Sure; there's a reason to use primate forms after all. Opposable thumbs are handy.

Runestar
2010-04-16, 09:14 PM
Hmm, I was looking at the part of the spell that says "A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand" and took that to mean that you wouldn't actually be holding the blade, but I guess I overlooked the part that says you wield it like a scimitar. Oh well...

Edit: Hmm...would a druid who had wild shaped into an ape be able to wield the blade then?

I suppose so, but I think it will use up one of your claw attacks, so you attack with the flame blade, followed by only 1 claw+bite as secondary attacks. :smallsmile:

Zach J.
2010-04-16, 09:20 PM
I suppose so, but I think it will use up one of your claw attacks, so you attack with the flame blade, followed by only 1 claw+bite as secondary attacks. :smallsmile:

Hmm...yeah looks like I'd be doing more damage on average just using the ape's natural attacks rather than throwing a Flame Blade into the mix. Oh well you can't blame a guy for trying right? Or...thinking about trying sometime in the future.

Runestar
2010-04-16, 09:33 PM
Flame blade is a touch attack, which might make it situationally superior (say vs trolls or foes with ridiculously high ACs) and you do get extra attacks from a high bab, but an ape using it forgoes superior claw damage and the ability to rend. Plus, it is easily negated by fire resistance. So I guess it isn't really worth it.

Swiftest
2010-04-17, 01:48 AM
Are you by chance playing in a Temple of Elemental Evil game, lol? Another player in my game asked me that *exact same* question the other day while we were making his wildshape combat specced druid. We're about to be level 6 =p. I don't believe in coincidences!

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-17, 02:34 AM
Flame Blade:

A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.

The spell does not function underwater.
The bolded portion indicates that attacks with a Flame Blade are no different than normal manufactured weapon attacks.

Regarding natural weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons) and manufactured weapon attacks, you can make primary manufactured weapon attacks and secondary natural weapon attacks as part of a full attack routine, or you can add a secondary manufactured weapon attack to your normal natural weapon full attack routine. In this case, it would replace one of the claw attacks.

A Druid 6 gets a +4 BAB, a Black Bear has Str 19, so your attacks would be one of the following:

Flame Blade (primary) +8 melee touch, 1d8+3 fire
Claw (secondary) +3 melee, 1d4+2
Bite (secondary) +3 melee, 1d6+2

or
Claw (primary) +8 melee, 1d4+4
Flame Blade (secondary) +3 melee touch, 1d8+3 fire
Bite (secondary) +3 melee, 1d6+2

Alternatively, you could hold the Flame Blade with your teeth, subject to DM approval:
2 Claws (primary) +8 melee, 1d4+4
Flame Blade (secondary) +3 melee touch, 1d6+3 fire

Runestar
2010-04-17, 04:47 AM
I seriously doubt you can opt to let your wielded weapon be used as a secondary attack. If my understanding of the rules is correct, you must always attack with your manufactured weapon first, and natural weapon attacks are always secondary attacks.

Flame blade isn't even a natural weapon anyways, so it can never be a secondary attack. Off-hand perhaps, but that assumes you are wielding a weapon in your other hand. And a claw does not count.

Zach J.
2010-04-17, 10:11 AM
Haha, I see. So you're saying I need to cast Flame Blade twice. ;)

Zach J.
2010-04-17, 10:13 AM
Are you by chance playing in a Temple of Elemental Evil game, lol? Another player in my game asked me that *exact same* question the other day while we were making his wildshape combat specced druid. We're about to be level 6 =p. I don't believe in coincidences!

Haha, nope. Just playing in a friend's campaign and I'm retiring my level 2 fighter to bring in a level 1 druid. I guess the coolness that would be a bear and a flaming sword is universal. :)

Keewatin
2010-04-18, 11:43 AM
Wait till you dicover the fun of dire apes and large quarter staves with a few common spells.

I also greatly enjoy produce flame and eagles lanching 120 foot range fire balls.

But yea primate + shileighlgh is very fun.


If the flame blade is a scimitar does it crit on an 18-20?