Support In the 12th Relationship Woes and Advice Thread, my true friend gave to me... [Archive]

Syka

2010-04-16, 07:09 PM

New opening! Hello! Welcome to the Relationship Woes and Advice thread, home of any questions you may have: romantic or familial or friendship, we'll answer (or try to answer) them all. Three years old and growing. As Pancake says, this isn't a trade economy- feel free to ask if you have a question, even if you haven't ever given advice and don't intend to start. We won't stone you or ignore you or anything. :smallsmile: All we ask is to know how a situation ends up, either in this thread or through a PM.

Here is the basics...

The biggest bit of advice I've seen bandied around is the truest- no matter what else is true about the situation, always be yourself. It's no good to act like someone else, because eventually the true you will come out and the other person will not be happy you hid that from them.

Rules Of Relationships:
#1- Communicate. If you can't talk with your partner, it's probably not going to work.

#2- Be yourself. Admittedly, if you have some really bad habits you should probably try to change them, but be honest about who you are. No one wants to find out they were loving a lie, and no one likes to live a lie (...well, normally).

#3- Accept your partner. In mine, and other people's, experience you have to be able to accept your partner as they are, because they probably won't be able to change. Also, don't change drastically for someone. I've tried it, my friends have tried it, it doesn't work and it doesn't end pretty.

#4- Hints. Do. Not. Work. Or they might, but the chance of that happening is limited. Some people are like me and just utterly oblivious unless it is blatantly stated, others are (also like me) and don't want to assume, and yet others don't care. You won't know which they belong to unless you actually spell out your intentions and/or feelings. I would consider this a corrolery to Rule #1 except that it comes up so often. Do NOT assume someone should know something from hints. Hints, by nature, are subtle. Clue Bats/Crow Bars/Mack Trucks are not. Try hitting them with one of those. ;) (No, not literally. I mean be upfront if you are trying to get someone to know something.)

#5- Don't be desperate. You don't need to be in a relationship and the healthiest mindset is one where you are happy as you are, even if you do not have a significant other. Don't stay in a relationship that isn't good if you aren't happy, just because you want someone. This is detrimental to both parties in the long (and sometimes short) run.

#6- Be a couple. Set aside some time every week to be together. Just an hour, if nothing else, where it's JUST you two. No computer, no others. Just the couple.

#6.5- Maintain the relationship. Ask your partner every now and then how they are feeling, if they feel like the relationship is still going in a good direction, etc. Also, make sure you don't hide it if you have an issue with your partner or a relationship. The only way it can change is if you talk about it.

#7- Let your boundaries be known. This goes for everything from intimacy to what you consider cheating to any other thing you can think of. Pretty much if it's something that would possibly upset you or your partner, let them know BEFORE a problem arises. An example would be letting your partner know you consider kissing cheating. They very well might think only intercourse is cheating. Having that known before anything potentially happens is a good thing.

#8- Know the signs of an abusive relationship. (http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section1/scenarios/rape.html#abusive) Both men and women can be abusers, and if you recognize the signs early on you are more likely to be able to get out of a bad situation before it gets out of hand. It's never easy, but if you know the general red flags, it can help you to avoid the situation.

Here (http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/Abuser/signs.htm) is a more general, gender neutral list. Thank you Pheehelm and arkady for the links (I think I remembered that correctly...)

RULES. YOU READ THESE.
-Anything of a sexual nature, please PM to either myself or one of the regular advice givers. If you just want general opinions post something like: "I have this problem, but it is not board appropriate. Could one of you guys PM me?" I know from experience that you will in fact get help.

-KEEP IT NICE. Disagreements are bound to happen, but please don't be rude.

-Joking is all fun and games, within reasons. Please do not get derogatory.

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

So please - play nice, and if you're not comfortable talking about things over the open board, PM one of the regulars (too many to mention), and im sure they'll be willing to lend an ear - or if you're not sure who to PM, post asking for someone to PM you, and you'll soon get a response

Player_Zero

2010-04-16, 07:35 PM

How often do people 'go out'? That is, meet up with a friend, or go to a club or what-have-you.

Seems fairly on-topic enough to me.

Deth Muncher

2010-04-16, 07:37 PM

"12" is an awfully strange way to write 11.

Pheehelm

2010-04-16, 07:42 PM

12 is correct. As I explained in the previous thread:
-Finally, the last thread created by Syka was the eighth ("Two Cubed"). Then came the ninth ("Trip to Baator"), then the tenth ("Bridge Across Forever"). This is the eleventh thread. The next one will be the twelfth....which makes Syka's "I can't believe this is the 10th incarnation" funny in retrospect.

(By the way, here's the link to the previous thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139746).)

skywalker

2010-04-16, 07:48 PM

Ok, this isn't asking advice or expressing woe, but had an observation.

I had always assumed that 'affection' and 'love' went hand in hand, but then I watch some and I see it's not the case.

For instance, my sister, who is getting married next month, isn't exactly love-dovey, but you see her with her fiance and she usually is leaning against him, or in some way showing her affection. It's not sexual or possessive, just, I belong here with you.

I'll see other couples though, and they don't really ever seem to touch. They may kiss, hold hands, but there seems to be a wall between them. Others may even sit on the other's lap, but it's never relaxed. More like the guy saying, 'Park it here baby' and the girl going, 'Ok, you're a chair'. No real 'affection' as it were.

Then they may later break up and you see them with another, or you see a photo of them before their present relationship, with their ex, and they appear relaxed and more like my sister. Same person, totally different feel.

Am I reading into this, or wouldn't the relationship they seem to 'belong' with be healthier than those that really seem standoffish even while in a hug?

I know there are all ways of showing affection, but am I wrong in seeing that some react with openness to another even without touching, while others seem closed off even in an intimate moment?

If you really love and trust someone why would you be so standoffish?

I personally agree with you, but in a weird way. I think it's perfectly possible to not be as physically indicative of your relationship, but both parties have to feel this way.

For instance, I am used to being very physically demonstrative of my affection. I had a girlfriend for 3 years who felt the same way (in fact, she made me more this way). I hug all my friends, even males (and sometimes those who don't hug others). Now, when I started dating my most recent ex, it was pretty clear that she was not as physically forward as me. It seems, in retrospect, that she was participating in physicality primarily because "it's what people do in college" and because she thought I expected it. Regardless, it was pretty clear that she was not as into it as I (and I mean, hugging, kissing, even touching in public) and again in retrospect, it caused serious issues in our relationship because I was not used to this method of expressing affection. So we did not get as long as well as we could.

It's all Love Languages, (http://www.5lovelanguages.com/) you know?

I decided to put this up because, evidently, it was not apparent that these should be followed. I do not want this thread to be scrubbed again, and we were blessed to get it back.

I think this should be again (again), in light of recent events.

/gallows humor.

Deth Muncher

2010-04-16, 08:07 PM

Herp derp, I don't read explanations.

Oh. Okay then.

Froogleyboy

2010-04-16, 09:52 PM

arguskos

2010-04-16, 09:55 PM

Tequila Sunrise

2010-04-16, 10:03 PM

arguskos

2010-04-16, 10:11 PM

Or, you could tell her "This jerk you're dating isn't good for you; I'd like to help, but you've turned down my help, so see ya. Give me a call if you come to your senses."

It certainly is noble and stoic to hang out with her and provide a shoulder to cry on, but you've got a crush to get over and a life of your own.
Or, uh, he could NOT throw away a friendship cause he's jilted? That seems wasteful and foolish, at best. I mean, ok, so he's not gonna get the girl. Fine, get over that. But, that's no reason to walk away from a friendship.

Pheehelm

2010-04-16, 10:24 PM

Froogleyboy -- seconding everything arguskos said. Learn to take no for an answer. She doesn't see you that way; end of story. She's under no obligation to return your affections. See also this (http://xkcd.com/513/).

And yeah, if you know he's actually abusing her, report it. Not because it'll shift you into boyfriend material, but because it's the right thing to do.

Deth Muncher

2010-04-16, 10:38 PM

Tequila Sunrise

2010-04-16, 10:51 PM

Or, uh, he could NOT throw away a friendship cause he's jilted? That seems wasteful and foolish, at best. I mean, ok, so he's not gonna get the girl. Fine, get over that. But, that's no reason to walk away from a friendship.
I'm not saying he should end the friendship; just that if it's a torment to watch her hurting herself, he'd be justified putting the friendship on layoff. Actually, I'm not saying he should do anything, I just like pointing out options, even if some options are less than paladin-in-shining-armor-ish. :smallbiggrin:

golentan

2010-04-16, 10:52 PM

My dear sir, I too know the pain of the "friend zone." And a few times, running into the same situation as yours. Best bet? Continue to be her friend. Inform her of the douchebaggery of the douchebag, and maybe tone down the poetry (in all the instances I've known, it only comes off as creepy, not romantic). She may be hanging with this guy because this is how her father was to her, in which case it's been ingrained in her psyche and the only way she'll ever be able to date regular people (or hippies :P) is with some psychiatric help.

*listens for the telltale doomwhistle of a descending, explosive vipermorph*

INCOMING, GET DOWN!!!

Froogleyboy: Yeah. Contact the police about beatings, and other than that get on with it. Thar be no other options, laddie.

Pheehelm

2010-04-16, 10:53 PM

My dear sir, I too know the pain of the "friend zone."What have you done?!

...okay, before yet another long argument breaks out, let me be the first to point you to this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3128915&postcount=918) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2887584&postcount=1264) and also to this:
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/7/26/128931443531241516.png

Dragonrider

2010-04-16, 10:54 PM

My dear sir, I too know the pain of the "friend zone."

I vote to have a note about this put in the opening post. :smalltongue:

Edit: Double-ninja'd :smallbiggrin:

Froogleyboy

2010-04-16, 11:16 PM

down the poetry (in all the instances I've known, it only comes off as creepy, not romantic). .

I never intended to show my poetry, I keep it all in a notebook and we were hanging out one day and I was in the middle of writing a poem I call "The dove" (it was about her and the man she is with now) and she asked me what I was writing, I told her nothing but she took the notebook and read it cover to cover.

Deth Muncher

2010-04-16, 11:16 PM

LEARN TO READ OLD THREADS, NOOB!
:frown: I din't mean it! I swurr! I know not what I wrought! The last thing I need is ANOTHER reason for Serp to kill me...

ForzaFiori

2010-04-16, 11:39 PM

Whether or not there is truly a "friends bin", It is still a convenient name for the friends who fit every criteria a girl wants in a boyfriend (in fact, usually more than their actually boyfriends do) and yet still don't get dated. Not only does it fairly well describe what it is (A friend who has all their ideas of a good mate, but is still not dated) it is also something that everyone recognizes and knows what is being talked about.

Dragonrider

2010-04-16, 11:47 PM

Whether or not there is truly a "friends bin", It is still a convenient name for the friends who fit every criteria a girl wants in a boyfriend (in fact, usually more than their actually boyfriends do) and yet still don't get dated. Not only does it fairly well describe what it is (A friend who has all their ideas of a good mate, but is still not dated) it is also something that everyone recognizes and knows what is being talked about.

Sure, but isn't it sorta hard to judge from an outside perspective whether "every criterion" is a fact or just a perception from the outside? Sometimes there's just no attraction. Inexplicably.

golentan

2010-04-16, 11:49 PM

Sure, but isn't it sorta hard to judge from an outside perspective whether "every criteria" is a fact or just a perception from the outside? Sometimes there's just no attraction. Inexplicably.

And sometimes people lie about their criteria to impress friends and family because of perceived expectations.

Because people lie for their own benefit, and thus cause suffering by propagating those two great evils: Ignorance and Greed.

People irritate me, have I mentioned that lately?

Deth Muncher

2010-04-16, 11:52 PM

People irritate me, have I mentioned that lately?

I was just saying that last night...

Oh, and hey, is there any way I can be added to the list of "Contact these people if you want someone to listen and offer advice discreetly" list? I realize I haven't been active in the threads all that much, but I DO like being helpful.

skywalker

2010-04-17, 12:00 AM

I have a problem guys. There is this girl that I like. I've liked her for two years now and she wants us to just be friends. I've written pages worth of poems for her, yet she still likes this guy that just isn't good for her. He hits her, cheats on her, and steals from her. What can I do?

Hi! I've never met a stock character before!

Or, uh, he could NOT throw away a friendship cause he's jilted? That seems wasteful and foolish, at best. I mean, ok, so he's not gonna get the girl. Fine, get over that. But, that's no reason to walk away from a friendship.

There is some question as to whether or not he can get over it while remaining her friend. Some of us can, some of us can't.

There is also question as to what exactly their relationship is. Does he have entitlement issues? While the "call me when you get some sense" attitude doesn't remove this attitude, it does remove her from the equation and give him a chance to grow up some.

This is not necessarily accurate. However, the original post so readily emulates the classic "nice guy" position that it is easy to read into it. Google search "Tribute to Nice Guys" or something similar.

Froogley, if you do think you deserve something, get over it, however you can. Writing poetry is not going to help. Things that have been suggested before are (uh oh) getting her out of your immediate vicinity for a while, taking up a hobby, throwing yourself into a hobby you already have, and, my personal favorite, consistent self-affirmation of the truth (namely, that she isn't interested in you, that she is completely within rights to not be interested in you, no, it doesn't mean anything about you, you are a decent human regardless, and will be okay eventually).

*listens for the telltale doomwhistle of a descending, explosive vipermorph*

INCOMING, GET DOWN!!!

The growing attitude of "you are an idiot because Serpentine says so, and she will shortly be around to inform you of just how much of an idiot you are" is really starting to annoy me.

I never intended to show my poetry, I keep it all in a notebook and we were hanging out one day and I was in the middle of writing a poem I call "The dove" (it was about her and the man she is with now) and she asked me what I was writing, I told her nothing but she took the notebook and read it cover to cover.

Dude, private means private. In this case, it seems seriously unwise to me to be writing something about someone while they're around (and honestly a bit like you were fishing for her to get hold of it somehow).

Zeb The Troll

2010-04-17, 12:03 AM

How often do people 'go out'? That is, meet up with a friend, or go to a club or what-have-you.

Seems fairly on-topic enough to me.This question is too vague to give a thoughtful answer. There are far too many unmentioned variables to give a blanket answer.

For example, when I was in my early 20's and in the Army, living in the barracks and being fed warmed up puppy chow at no additional cost to me, my friends and I went out probably 3-4 night per week. But even on the "in" nights, we always hung out together.

Up until recently, Alarra and I got together with friends at least once, sometimes twice per week. Currently, we don't get out nearly as much as we'd like to, for various reasons.

At every point in my life, though, there were always acquaintances who were on the other end of the spectrum from me.

Or are you just trying to get a baseline for "how often do you guys, here in the Playground, go out?"

arguskos

2010-04-17, 12:11 AM

Hi! I've never met a stock character before!
While, frankly, a pretty dickish thing to say, I have to admit, this make me laugh a lot. :smallbiggrin: +10 approval.

There is some question as to whether or not he can get over it while remaining her friend. Some of us can, some of us can't.
While true, I DO feel that the attitude of "get out and stop being friends" is never a healthy one to take. This may come from the fact that I do not make friends easily, but I am loathe to lose them if I can avoid it.

The growing attitude of "you are an idiot because Serpentine says so, and she will shortly be around to inform you of just how much of an idiot you are" is really starting to annoy me.
Personally, I just want to avoid the damned arguments, which always take a page or more and are VERY BORING to read. :smallsigh:

Dude, private means private. In this case, it seems seriously unwise to me to be writing something about someone while they're around (and honestly a bit like you were fishing for her to get hold of it somehow).
Agreed. Keep such things elsewhere, and develop better judgment with such stuff.

golentan

2010-04-17, 12:11 AM

The growing attitude of "you are an idiot because Serpentine says so, and she will shortly be around to inform you of just how much of an idiot you are" is really starting to annoy me.

That is not what I meant. Where in my post did I *agree* with serpentine? I'll grant she's right on the money with her intended targets, yes. But I also feel that she needs to tweak her FoF identifiers and quit going off on people so easily.

What I meant is that this is a guaranteed fallout issue, that it is a predictable fallout issue, and that serpentine is predictably a single-issue-wonk about it and I'm sick of hearing/reading/thinking about the same damn argument every few pages. And it would be really great if we could get something to prevent such pointless, repetitive bickering, but for the moment I'll settle for "Fair warning and getting out of the way."

Pheehelm

2010-04-17, 12:21 AM

...the friends who fit every criteria a girl wants in a boyfriend (in fact, usually more than their actually boyfriends do) and yet still don't get dated. Not only does it fairly well describe what it is (A friend who has all their ideas of a good mate, but is still not dated)...But they don't meet all the criteria. They're missing that vital, magical component commonly known as "spark." Or sometimes it's "confidence" or "bearing" or "not being a self-centered vaguely misogynistic twit" or what-have-you that's missing.

Superglucose

2010-04-17, 12:36 AM

Whether or not there is truly a "friends bin", It is still a convenient name for the friends who fit every criteria a girl wants in a boyfriend (in fact, usually more than their actually boyfriends do) and yet still don't get dated.
The only time this happens (and be ready for this gospel truth), the ONLY TIME that a girl will look at someone and say, "This person fits every criteria I have for a boyfriend" and NOT be willing to date them is if she is already taken or in a situation in which she does not want any more boyfriends than she already has.

Otherwise, you're not what she wants.

EDIT: In concordance with the request of Syka in the op, let me continue the ongoing saga of my failife. Or at least the most recent chapter. I'll spoil it for peeps who don't want to read.

Bleh. I think that sums up today.

So after we're getting along so well it turns out her ex texted, then IMed, then CALLED her last night. Apparently he's still banking on them taking a roadtrip this summer (:smallconfused:) and told her that he hasn't done ANYTHING since they broke up which I don't take as a healthy sign, but of course my friend is taking as a "Awww how sweet" sign :smallannoyed: Quite frankly, I'm actually ANGRY with him. After all, he basically dumped her knowing how much she cared about him, and then seven days later phoned her to tell him "I can't live without you!" It's just so unfair to my friend and it's turning her into a wreck trying to figure everything out.

Anyways she had a party tonight at her apartment, which she's currently trying to lure me to but I don't feel like biking for 20 minutes to get to her apartment just in time to go home, and I did sort of just get home. She's trying to tempt me with hugs, and it's almost working. Well, mostly because she promised pizza and without that my dinner will be a small bag of doritos.

Which brings me to the next weird part: she suddenly out of the middle of nowhere starts warning that she is really cuddly, despite the fact that I've never noticed this behavior from her before.

Well ok that settles it. If $girl2 is there it might be worth it :smallwink:

Serpentine

2010-04-17, 02:53 AM

Uh... At this point I'm willing to give Deth the benefit of the doubt that he meant the (IMO unnecessary and/or redundant) definition of "friend who's "in love with" a friend who's not interested back". I think my original target hasn't come up for a long time, so although I stand by my hatred of it - and will always fight it anytime it comes up, boredom or no boredom - I'll now give the benefit of the doubt in context that they mean the other definition, which I won't "go off" about, even if I find labelling such a situation very silly.

Now, more importantly:

Ah, they studied under Serp.Whaddawaddawhat?

Zeb The Troll

2010-04-17, 03:26 AM

Now, more importantly:
Whaddawaddawhat?Because you often champion the "use him as furniture" method of flirting. :smallcool:

Serpentine

2010-04-17, 03:39 AM

I'm lucky to have so many brains around me in which to store my memories :smallcool:

Castaras

2010-04-17, 05:56 AM

How often do people 'go out'? That is, meet up with a friend, or go to a club or what-have-you.

Seems fairly on-topic enough to me.

Very rarely. I mostly do my RL socialising when I have to at school, and every month I go out twice with family to spend some time with family friends. Most of my socialising I do for fun is online. :smallsigh:

Player_Zero

2010-04-17, 06:30 AM

Internet socialising eh? It'll never catch on.

Serpentine

2010-04-17, 06:33 AM

Penpals're all the rage.

I had lunch with some friends today. That count?

Player_Zero

2010-04-17, 06:34 AM

You tell me, I wasn't there.

Serpentine

2010-04-17, 06:36 AM

Deny it all you like, just answer the question.

Player_Zero

2010-04-17, 06:41 AM

Dallas-Dakota

2010-04-17, 06:46 AM

Once or twice a month, when there's a fantasy festival/metal concert and I have money.

But I hear normal people go out more.

Coidzor

2010-04-17, 07:01 AM

Some kind of roughly weekly basis. Some people more of a bi-weekly sort of thing.

Syka

2010-04-17, 08:39 AM

I don't go out much. As it stands, I've gone out...once in the last month and a half, and that was because my friend who JUST got back from Iraq wanted to see Alice in Wonderland. Before that, my last time going out was to see Alice in Wonderland. >> (No, I'm not obsessed....it just worked out oddly.)

Pretty much once monthly or bimonthly is becoming normal for me. In the fall it ends up being significantly more because that is when most of Oz's film events occur, and thus I attend them with him. But in general...no much. Between school and work and just wanting some damn down time, I don't 'go out'. I lack funds, as well, since we're trying to plan a trip to NYC this summer, I just went to El Paso short notice (ie, expensive), and I need a new laptop. >>

If school is removed from the equation, I/we go out about once or twice a week either by ourselves or with friends.

I will address the proposed opening changes later today, working on some school stuff right now.

Amiel

2010-04-17, 09:06 AM

I see friends (from all groups) every single day of the week, and consistently chat with them for upwards of two hours at a time. It's only the weekends that I am lonely.

Having said that, I don't really go out much, every Tuesday night and the last time I went to grab a flick with friends was to go see Alice in Wonderland. There has been some talk of going to How To Train Your Dragon.

PersonMan

2010-04-17, 09:23 AM

I see just about all of my friends at school during the week, and then my Swedish friends come over on Saturday on the weekends. Then Sunday I stay home.

Starbuck_II

2010-04-17, 09:41 AM

Internet socialising eh? It'll never catch on.

I have a few friends that got into relationships that way. It started out internet only (IM's, forum discussions, and Chat programs). Eventually, they met in person.
They moved in later (usually a year after) on after dating each other. Granted, they all knew each other from the forum for years before that.

Granted, only 1 worked (my best friend moved to Cali to actually be with her).
Another one worked for a while till that guy cheated on his girl (that really hurt her). I only found out on facebook (came up in convo). She found another from our forum (I told her try not to let this be a rebound thing: she said she is going to take it slow).

So it can work.

Superglucose

2010-04-17, 10:40 AM

Internet socialising eh? It'll never catch on.
I found a gf that way.

Octopus Jack

2010-04-17, 10:54 AM

Aside from to do martial arts and the odd bit of volunteer archaeology, i don't get out much, I dont socialise on the internet either... hmm, anyone want to be my friend? :smallredface:

arguskos

2010-04-17, 11:45 AM

Aside from to do martial arts and the odd bit of volunteer archaeology, i don't get out much, I dont socialise on the internet either... hmm, anyone want to be my friend? :smallredface:
I get out less than you. :smallsigh: I do socialize on teh netterwebs quite a bit though, I crave human stimulation dammit!! It's a surprisingly good method of talking to folks.

Octopus Jack

2010-04-17, 11:50 AM

I get out less than you. :smallsigh: I do socialize on teh netterwebs quite a bit though, I crave human stimulation dammit!! It's a surprisingly good method of talking to folks.

Well my saturday night will consist of watching Doctor Who, that's about it. I don't actually have many people to talk to on the interwebs

arguskos

2010-04-17, 11:53 AM

Well my saturday night will consist of watching Doctor Who, that's about it. I don't actually have many people to talk to on the interwebs
Mine will consist of posting on this forum, and eating cold pizza. :smallsigh: Oh well, there are worse things than posting here (many many worse things).

Deth Muncher

2010-04-17, 11:56 AM

I'm fairly sure it qualifies as 'what-have-you'. And if I was in Australia I would've remembered. Probably. My house could've warped there like Count Duckula's castle but that is unlikely.

Anyway, I ask because I'm curious how often normal people go out.

I have a relatively active lifestyle. When I'm not writing 40 pages of papers for different classes (ANDTHENTHEYASSIGNMOREWORKRAZZAFRAZZARAGE) I generally hang out with my school's Quidditch team, or my girlfriend, or both (since she's on the team). I also volunteer at a radio station, though I've not been in a few weeks due to paper writing. Plus, like, there's that whole going to meet peeps to eat at the cafeteria, or around one of the restaurants around campus.

But yeah, generally my life is papers.

Also, uh...

Because you often champion the "use him as furniture" method of flirting. :smallcool:

Do I even WANT an explanation for that?

ForzaFiori

2010-04-17, 01:08 PM

How often I go out depends on your definition. I'm at school and church alot, and I hang with my friends there, but were not like, out going to a movie or something. Other than those two things though, I really don't do that much. Maybe an occasional big movie thing or something.

The problems with living in a very small town is that to go and do anything, its a 20-30 minute drive.

BSW

2010-04-17, 01:41 PM

How often do people 'go out'? That is, meet up with a friend, or go to a club or what-have-you.

Seems fairly on-topic enough to me.

Back when I was in undergrad, I rarely went out at all. It'd be like... maybe a once a month type event, if that.

Now, I actually go out with my law school friends fairly frequently. I go bowling with like 5-6 friends almost every Tuesday night, where I never fail to have a white russian in my hand... even while it's my turn.

I also go to happy hour with friends and classmates almost every friday evening. I do lunch with friends at least twice a week, and I go out barhopping with friends at least once a month.

There's also the occasional house party, but I'm not really a huge fan of those because I have to drive, and thus can't really drink enough to relax and talk to people who I don't already know pretty well.

I also run a virtual tabletop DnD game every other Saturday night with several friends from high school and undergrad.

I'm not constantly going out, but I get as much socializing as I want.

Don Julio Anejo

2010-04-17, 01:46 PM

- Clubs/parties - not very often, maybe once every 2-3 weeks, mostly because I don't like being hungover when I have to study. Used to be a lot more when I worked and didn't have school. May start clubbing on a regular basis again as my friend is teaching me how to dance new style Rn'B.

- Bars to meet up with friends for a few beers, watch hockey or play pool - once-twice a week.

- Movies, lunch, dinner, etc, I don't count as going out, but if you count these then 3-4 times a week for lunch/dinner and once in a blue moon for movies.

Dragonrider

2010-04-17, 01:51 PM

Like, never? I live with my friends. I socialize all the time - we have routine baking parties and study sessions together. But we don't go "do stuff". Unless you count walking down to the thrift store to make fun of frumpy clothes. :smallwink:

Starbuck_II

2010-04-17, 02:06 PM

Aside from to do martial arts and the odd bit of volunteer archaeology, i don't get out much, I dont socialise on the internet either... hmm, anyone want to be my friend? :smallredface:

Aww.

I have a comedy group I'm in: CNU Tonight. Sketch comedy kind of like Saturday Night Live (but better :smallbiggrin:) at my college.
Currently, that is my only socializing outside of classes (well besides Facebook).

You do martial arts cool: what kind?

skywalker

2010-04-17, 02:20 PM

While, frankly, a pretty dickish thing to say, I have to admit, this make me laugh a lot. :smallbiggrin: +10 approval.

It was just... so close to the prototypical "nice guy!" It wasn't the nicest thing to say, in retrospect. I didn't think of how else it could be taken.

While true, I DO feel that the attitude of "get out and stop being friends" is never a healthy one to take. This may come from the fact that I do not make friends easily, but I am loathe to lose them if I can avoid it.

"You're a really good friend, and I'd like to keep it that way" also seems like a decent excuse for not really getting over someone. I have some experience with that road.

So after we're getting along so well it turns out her ex texted, then IMed, then CALLED her last night. Apparently he's still banking on them taking a roadtrip this summer (:smallconfused:) and told her that he hasn't done ANYTHING since they broke up which I don't take as a healthy sign, but of course my friend is taking as a "Awww how sweet" sign :smallannoyed: Quite frankly, I'm actually ANGRY with him. After all, he basically dumped her knowing how much she cared about him, and then seven days later phoned her to tell him "I can't live without you!" It's just so unfair to my friend and it's turning her into a wreck trying to figure everything out.

No, that wasn't nice of him. It also isn't really your place to get "all caps" with him. Again, your closeness to the situation potentially contaminates any righteousness you might be able to claim.

Anyways she had a party tonight at her apartment, which she's currently trying to lure me to but I don't feel like biking for 20 minutes to get to her apartment just in time to go home, and I did sort of just get home. She's trying to tempt me with hugs, and it's almost working. Well, mostly because she promised pizza and without that my dinner will be a small bag of doritos.

I vote "Danger Will Robinson..."

Which brings me to the next weird part: she suddenly out of the middle of nowhere starts warning that she is really cuddly, despite the fact that I've never noticed this behavior from her before.

Either she is legitimately trying to warn you that she might behave in a confusing way (which is acceptable, she knows you're around, you like her, and she's probably missing relationship-y things and human contact) or she's playing with your mind. Either option is equally as likely.

Uh... At this point I'm willing to give Deth the benefit of the doubt that he meant the (IMO unnecessary and/or redundant) definition of "friend who's "in love with" a friend who's not interested back". I think my original target hasn't come up for a long time, so although I stand by my hatred of it - and will always fight it anytime it comes up, boredom or no boredom - I'll now give the benefit of the doubt in context that they mean the other definition, which I won't "go off" about, even if I find labelling such a situation very silly.

For the record, my problem was not with you. It makes me feel better, at least, to point that out.

Back when I was in undergrad, I rarely went out at all. It'd be like... maybe a once a month type event, if that.

Now, I actually go out with my law school friends fairly frequently. I go bowling with like 5-6 friends almost every Tuesday night, where I never fail to have a white russian in my hand... even while it's my turn.

I also go to happy hour with friends and classmates almost every friday evening. I do lunch with friends at least twice a week, and I go out barhopping with friends at least once a month.

There's also the occasional house party, but I'm not really a huge fan of those because I have to drive, and thus can't really drink enough to relax and talk to people who I don't already know pretty well.

I also run a virtual tabletop DnD game every other Saturday night with several friends from high school and undergrad.

I'm not constantly going out, but I get as much socializing as I want.

Your life is so completely opposite from what I've heard is the average law student's life. Most of the time, I hear them say "I went out all the time as an undergrad! Now... Casebooks eat my life/soul."

One of my friends moving back home for law school has essentially told me "don't expect to actually have fun with me during the school year."

Like, never? I live with my friends. I socialize all the time - we have routine baking parties and study sessions together. But we don't go "do stuff". Unless you count walking down to the thrift store to make fun of frumpy clothes. :smallwink:

Ah, the glorious life of the responsible under-21. Kudos to you!

I go out... Well, I run a student group. We go out every Wednesday after our meetings. Other than that, I catch a sporting event every week or 2 with a friend, and will occasionally hit a bar (maybe once a month). I'm a grievous tightwad, however, so going out usually involves pint night and other specials, when I do even go out.

arguskos

2010-04-17, 02:41 PM

It was just... so close to the prototypical "nice guy!" It wasn't the nicest thing to say, in retrospect. I didn't think of how else it could be taken.
Eh, don't sweat it. Like I said, I laughed, just because. It WAS a good thing to point out though, so yeah.

"You're a really good friend, and I'd like to keep it that way" also seems like a decent excuse for not really getting over someone. I have some experience with that road.
While true, one can get over unrequited attraction and still remain friends, which is the ideal goal at all times, I think. :smallwink:

BSW

2010-04-17, 03:07 PM

Your life is so completely opposite from what I've heard is the average law student's life. Most of the time, I hear them say "I went out all the time as an undergrad! Now... Casebooks eat my life/soul."

One of my friends moving back home for law school has essentially told me "don't expect to actually have fun with me during the school year."

Haha, don't get me wrong... I'm less than a month from graduating... I have a job as a criminal prosecutor lined up, and this last semester all I've had was one class and a journal article to write. I've got a light schedule because I took classes during the summer semesters.

My first year of law school was crazy busy with reading and class prep. But, after the first year, you learn how to glean the important information from materials very quickly... during my first year, it would take me like... 2-3 hours to read and understand around 50 pages worth of material. Now, I can skim the same material in about 30 minutes and pick out everything that I need to. In other words, the further you go in law school the more efficient you get at reading.

But even when you've gotten used to the work and whatnot, socializing abruptly stops during exam periods.

Froogleyboy

2010-04-17, 06:13 PM

BSW

2010-04-17, 06:32 PM

I don't think I helped things :smallfrown: We were all hanging out (Me, her, her boyfriend, and a couple of friends) in my friends basement. Everyone except her boyfriend was playing DnD and he kept saying "This is gay" finally she said "Then leave" and He slapped her in the face. Everyone else just sat there staring, but my friend was like "Get the hell out of here man" And I socked that douche in the mouth. She just looked at me and started crying. I left after that. I think I just made her mad

Quite frankly, I don't think you need to be worried about how she feels about you right now, nor about whether or you made her mad. If you're really her friend, then what you need to be thinking about is that your friend is the victim of domestic abuse. Whether she's willing to admit it or not, she probably needs help.

Do what you need to do to make sure she gets help.

http://www.ndvh.org/ is the website of the National Domestic Violence Hotline. You can call their 800 number 24/7 (1.800.799.7233). I think you should call them and ask for their advice on what you can do to help her.

All that said, I can't say as I blame you for hitting that guy.

Crimmy

2010-04-17, 07:15 PM

All that said, I can't say as I blame you for hitting that guy.

This.
I dunno how things work there, but in Mexico, and more specifically, in my school, whenever something like that happens, the usual mob takes place.

By "usual mob" I refer to the 5-8 friends that the girl usually has. And then they gather stuff: ropes, bats, knives, wires, and boots.
Then, as the saying goes: "Shoot happens".

In all honnesty, I've been in said mob once. And to tell ya the truth, I didn't feel better before I did it, and I did feel better once I had finished. The douch never tried a move on her again, and we (the frineds) have been having a nice, happy time ever since.

However, since both law and morals are different here and there (or so it seems), I wouldn't suggest you follow said course of action.
At the most, all I can say is "She's stupid enough for not dumping said guy, and you were clever enough to do some action, and then leave to cool down."

Seriously, though, I would suggest you not speak or see her if you're enraged because of it, because if you do such thing, you will most surely do something you will regret later on.

As for the punch, once again, "[...] right on, my friend. You did well".

Roland St. Jude

2010-04-17, 09:29 PM

Sheriff of Moddingham: Let's have less discussion of violent altercations and potentially criminal activities. Please.

Crimmy

2010-04-17, 09:50 PM

Sheriff of Moddingham: Let's have less discussion of violent altercations and potentially criminal activities. Please.

Right-o.
Shall strike it right now.

skywalker

2010-04-17, 11:07 PM

I don't think I helped things :smallfrown: We were all hanging out (Me, her, her boyfriend, and a couple of friends) in my friends basement. Everyone except her boyfriend was playing DnD and he kept saying "This is gay" finally she said "Then leave" and He slapped her in the face. Everyone else just sat there staring, but my friend was like "Get the hell out of here man" And I socked that douche in the mouth. She just looked at me and started crying. I left after that. I think I just made her mad

What did she do after he slapped her? This is fairly important. I mean, in the intervening period between him slapping her and you punching him.

Also, keep in mind that having a physically abusive confrontation with an SO in public, in front of friends is a rather emotionally charged ordeal. She likely was simply crying. Your hitting him probably had little to do with it.

That said, there is the possibility of your intentions being misread because she recently found out you have written a notebook full of poems about her.

*lots of struck-thru stuff*

Mexico is a strange (and in my opinion, wonderful) place sometimes.

Serpentine

2010-04-17, 11:47 PM

At the most, all I can say is "She's stupid enough for not dumping said guy, and you were clever enough to do some action, and then leave to cool down."This is a harsh, unjust and, I suspect, very naiive thing to say. There's a lot of very complicated psychology involved in abusive relationships, many dynamics you know nothing about, and most likely all it can really say about her is her emotional state. My sister was in an abusive relationship for several years, and she's one of the strongest, no-nonsense, intelligent people I know (the last straw for her was being pushed out a moving car. While pregnant.).
Intervention time! This girl needs help. Look up all the domestic abuse services in your area, and go in armed with that. Get support - the people who were present then is a good place to start. If you're able to, offer/find her a place to stay away from him. Tell her this is not a healthy relationship, and make sure she knows it's not her fault ("They/I only got what they/I deserved" seems to be an all-too-common justification for abuse, from both ends).
To reiterate: This girl need help. She is in a psychologically, not just physically, bad place.
You did the right thing. Now you need to* follow it up by convincing her she both needs to and can get out of that relationship, and supporting her in doing so.

*You know, if you care at all. Before someone says "pfft, it's her stupid fault for getting into that situation, you should just leave her 'til she hardens up and does it herself": one of the more effective methods of abusive partners involves separating their victim from all help and support.

golentan

2010-04-18, 12:03 AM

Agreed. There is never justification for striking a partner in anger. There are a million ways people will try to justify it, though, whether they're the striker or strikee. 1st step to helping is involving the community, and the community's authorities.

So, in Golentan news: Date-ish thing tomorrow. Feeling as confused as normal, should be fun.

Umael

2010-04-18, 01:11 AM

I don't think I helped things

Maybe, maybe not. Abusive relationships are ugly, complicated things.

But I have to echo what a lot of people said.

Victim of Domestic Abuse hotline. Website. Whatever. Go. Now. If nothing else, they have professionals who can tell you what the best move to make is.

Serpentine

2010-04-18, 01:14 AM

I think that, at the very least, you've demonstrated to both of them that such behaviour is not tolerated by you (plural). I would follow it up with making it clear you will not tolerate him (in addition to all the aforementioned suggestions), and only allow him to join your gatherings if refusing to do so would mean she won't come (which will hopefully not be necessary regardless because you'll get her the help she needs and she'll leave him, but just in case...). Others may disagree, though.

I would like to mention that, as already said, she may have just been emotional, rather than angry at you. Even if she is/was angry with you, don't take that as discouragement. Abused and abusing people get things all twisted up in their heads, get defensive, do other things I don't know enough about abuse psychology to list but know are there. Basically (though, again, others may have better advice), if she is angry at you for hitting him, ignore it and push through.

Coidzor

2010-04-18, 02:14 AM

To reiterate: This girl need help. She is in a psychologically, not just physically, bad place.
You did the right thing. Now you need to* follow it up by convincing her she both needs to and can get out of that relationship, and supporting her in doing so.

Indeed. Though I must admit, sometimes it's disgusting how little feminism the average woman has in her body.

The girl I'm currently seeing still hasn't admitted that her ex is basically nothing more than a pile of emotionally abusive neuroses. Having a ***** of a drug addict for a mother doesn't excuse bad behavior, merely makes it more likely.

It only stopped because she was living with her sister-in-law and her brother and their kids. Mostly because of the sister-in-law finally paying attention to the fact that he was always leaving her in tears after he made the children cry too.

Still not sure what to do about that, but as long as he stays away from trying to contact her, I'm not seeing any especial need to. Though getting threatened by his autistic friend that his grandma carries around a pistol illegally at all times sure makes me wish there was something I could do to ruin these people's day.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-18, 03:53 AM

If there really is an abusive relationship going on, I suggest contacting the police. It's illegal and disgusting, but the police mostly rely on third party tip-offs.

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 04:11 AM

So yeah, this is driving me crazy. It sounds like she agrees almost exclusively with what I'm saying and all signs point to "yes." Aaarrgh! I'll try taking Syka's advice now. Syka has an awesome fox avvy and therefore knows what she's talking about.

Octopus Jack

2010-04-18, 04:29 AM

Aww.

I have a comedy group I'm in: CNU Tonight. Sketch comedy kind of like Saturday Night Live (but better :smallbiggrin:) at my college.
Currently, that is my only socializing outside of classes (well besides Facebook).

You do martial arts cool: what kind?

Wado Ryu (Karate) and Taekwondo, black belt in both and taking my second dan in Karate next week :smallbiggrin:

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 04:51 AM

Wow, I haven't posted here about how much I hate myself yet? That's a record.

Why is... well that's a redundant questoin. No girl likes me because I don't like me, right? Well how am I supposed to like someone who's willing to use every tool at his disposal to convince a girl to like him? ****. That. ****.

Skywalker? you were right. I'm the worst suitor ever. I should give up and just quit the dating scene alltogether.

EDIT: Well in the morning I've reread that chatlog. I still blew an ape-sized hole in my foot, but i noticed that she asked me to get some other guy's number. When I was like "WTF" she said that I was busy playing Brawl so wtf else was she supposed to do? She made it sound like her making me get some other guy's number is payment for not paying attention to her, either at the party or at picnic day (where I admit I was paying more attention to her friend).

This is all turning into some stupid soap-opera bull crap.

Dragonrider

2010-04-18, 11:09 AM

Indeed. Though I must admit, sometimes it's disgusting how little feminism the average woman has in her body.

I don't think that's quite accurate. :smalltongue: Does the average woman think that women and men are equal and society should treat them as such? Probably. But does the average woman think that she (particularly with regard to her own body) personally is inferior? Probably. Thus, it's quite easy for a woman to hold the (feminist) view that women as a whole deserve respect whilst simultaneously not expecting it for herself.

Pyrian

2010-04-18, 11:51 AM

...doesn't excuse bad behavior, merely makes it more likely.Thank you for that! I hate it when people ascribe responsibility to mere correlation.

Eldritch Knight

2010-04-18, 12:04 PM

Where do I begin? This may take a while, so I'll just be listing points numerically.

1. At the beginning of March, she called me and said, 'I'd prefer you didn't come up to see me on my birthday, (Ouch) I need space. We both have a lot of issues to deal with individually, and we're not really dealing with them as a couple, so maybe we should take a break and try dealing with them on our own.' (This is paraphrased, more or less)

2. Before she had called me, I had contacted her step-mother and offered my thoughts as to what could be done for her birthday. I was told to contact her father. Since she then called me and asked for space, I did nothing, because I had assumed that she would have briefed them on the situation.

3. This led to her birthday being a total-mess, planned at the last minute because my suggestion was considered to be an actual plan, thus leaving them to come up with something at the last minute. The next day I recieved a JUSTIFABLY angry e-mail from her father, with the basic gist of 'Just who the HELL do you think you are?', calling me to account on a lot of flaws that had been seen in our relationship that neither of us had taken the time to address.

4. She had hidden her relationship status on facebook back at the beginning of March, which I thought was understandable, because we had basically agreed to put our relationship on 'pause' for a while (an UNKNOWN while, unfortunatly.) I logged on to Facebook last night, and noticed that she had set her relationship status to 'single'.

It sounds bad, I know, but our relationship was stronger when there were troubled times afoot, such as cancer in the family, the death of close loved ones, etc. I've always had difficulty expressing my feelings, but, this simplifies things significantly. I love her enough, that my reaction to everything is simply, "As You Wish".

(We're both fans of the Princess Bride, so when I say that, I really do mean, I Love You.)

Umael

2010-04-18, 02:11 PM

1. At the beginning of March, she called me and said, 'I'd prefer you didn't come up to see me on my birthday, (Ouch) I need space.

Sounds like it is time to examine the relationship and consider whether it is worth trying to continue it - keeping in mind that both of you need to do that and agree for it to continue.

2. Before she had called me, I had contacted her step-mother and offered my thoughts as to what could be done for her birthday. I was told to contact her father. Since she then called me and asked for space, I did nothing, because I had assumed that she would have briefed them on the situation.

No. You assumed, and you assumed wrong. When she said "I need space," you needed to say, "I was helping your parents plan your birthday." If the planning was a surprise - why would you assume that she would have briefed them anyway?

3. This led to her birthday being a total-mess, planned at the last minute because my suggestion was considered to be an actual plan,

I am not sure why this should have been. You not fulfilling your part of a birthday planning does not mean that her parents should drop the ball either.

In any case, you should have replied to her father with an explanation of what happened, as well as a "yes, there are a lot of things screwed up, this is why she asked for space and time."

4. I logged on to Facebook last night, and noticed that she had set her relationship status to 'single'.

She may want to think of herself as single. She may decide after being single for a while that she wants to get back together with you. She may decide that she is better off without you.

Give it some time, then ask her about it.

It sounds bad, I know, but our relationship was stronger when there were troubled times afoot, such as cancer in the family, the death of close loved ones, etc.

You know, it is easy to overlook things in a crisis, it is easy to let adrenaline sway you in an emergency. In other words, you do not always think best about romantic affairs while you are dealing with issues that are a lot more pressing and have nothing to do with your lovelife.

Now that the emergencies are over... you two might be waking up and seeing each other without the crisis to distract you.

Don Julio Anejo

2010-04-18, 02:21 PM

Eldritch Knight, while this is probably not what you want to hear, I think you still need to.

"I need some space" is often girl talk for breaking up without actually breaking up. While in many cases it's not the case, from what you told us, it sounds like it is the case in your particular situation - more likely than not she wants to avoid the drama of a break up and is hoping you'll forget about her eventually and move on if she avoids you alltogether.

Unless, of course, there is something I don't know that's important.

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 03:22 PM

Sounds like it is time to examine the relationship and consider whether it is worth trying to continue it - keeping in mind that both of you need to do that and agree for it to continue.

I'd like to add to this:

If someone says "I need space" that should translate in your head to "We'll be single for at least a month. Also not even being friends. No, not even if that happens."

So many times I see "I need space" turn into a breakup then rejoin with absolutely nothing changing. Guess what? It's just going to happen again sooner or later.

Starbuck_II

2010-04-18, 03:33 PM

3. This led to her birthday being a total-mess, planned at the last minute because my suggestion was considered to be an actual plan, thus leaving them to come up with something at the last minute. The next day I recieved a JUSTIFABLY angry e-mail from her father, with the basic gist of 'Just who the HELL do you think you are?', calling me to account on a lot of flaws that had been seen in our relationship that neither of us had taken the time to address.

This would be a good moment to tell him about fact that his daughter asked you to stay away. You should have apologized irregardless (despite that not being a word) for the fact that her birthday wasn't great.

You assumed she wouldn't want you planning it if you weren't coming: that should have been discussed with them not her.

Likely calling them: saying "you are unable to help the planning (you are sorry), hope you can work it out well."

But the past is 20/20 so oh well. Bridge burned, nothing you can do about that. Still the apology though.

(We're both fans of the Princess Bride, so when I say that, I really do mean, I Love You.)

Ah, I know that was a great movie.
It is possible by I needing space (and her hiding her status), she was slowly trying to end it.
She might be too scared to admit she wants to break up. The space thing could be her seeing how it feels to not be together.

Not that it must be over, but you might want to admit this is could be the boss battle: the ending might be near.

Hope for the best, but prepare yourself for the worst.

Eldritch Knight

2010-04-18, 04:54 PM

It is possible by I needing space (and her hiding her status), she was slowly trying to end it.
She might be too scared to admit she wants to break up. The space thing could be her seeing how it feels to not be together.

Not that it must be over, but you might want to admit this is could be the boss battle: the ending might be near.

Hope for the best, but prepare yourself for the worst.

This is unlikely, considering we've been together for the past five years, and had been engaged. That's not the sort of relationship that's easily walked away from, on either end.

Starbuck_II

2010-04-18, 04:58 PM

You didn't mention that part :smalltongue:

I thought you guys were just dating not engaged. I think that might be important to note in discussions.

Eldritch Knight

2010-04-18, 05:03 PM

You didn't mention that part :smalltongue:

I thought you guys were just dating not engaged. I think that might be important to note in discussions.

It's also the sort of information that I assume is common knowledge, what with facebook and everything, and that I thought I had mentioned that in my original post, (looking back, I see that I didn't.) Over all, I'm not really worried about this, because if it's time, than it's time, and there's not much I can do about it in the long run.

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 05:07 PM

This is unlikely, considering we've been together for the past five years, and had been engaged. That's not the sort of relationship that's easily walked away from, on either end.
My point still holds.

Dallas-Dakota

2010-04-18, 05:13 PM

EK, man, I don't know you that well, but I really hope that this ends well for the both of you.

I'd offer advice, but I'm a N00B, so all I say is: Good luck and you have my thumbs up and best wishes.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-18, 06:52 PM

Starbuck_II

2010-04-18, 07:19 PM

Aww *gives guy hug*

At least you have had sex. Still a virgin myself.

evil-frosty

2010-04-18, 07:28 PM

Well I just got back home from evening church and I saw my ex there. I am almost positive that i am over her, but when i saw her a little part of my heart just wrenched and felt like it was was getting cut up. It sucked. I dont want advice really, just needed to tell someone and my IRL friends are sick of hearing about her since when we first broke up i was constantly talking to them.

arguskos

2010-04-18, 07:39 PM

I'm getting to that length of time having been single that it really starts to get at me.

Hanging around people who complain about feeling massively undersexed because they haven't in a month (to someone they know hasn't for far longer) doesn't help either. Especially when a slightly whimsical suggestion that "there's an obvious solution" was met which quite vehement rebuffal, this hasn't helped my self-esteem.

Basically I just really need a big hug and to be assured everything will turn out alright.
Dude, I feel your pain. I'm ****ing tired of being single too, but given my inability to GO anywhere or DO anything, it's hard to find potential significant others. :smallsigh:

Doesn't help that my libido is very very active. :sigh:

But, we move on as we must. Things always get worse before they get better, and all that. Know that you can always talk to me, if you wish to.

skywalker

2010-04-18, 08:11 PM

Skywalker? you were right. I'm the worst suitor ever. I should give up and just quit the dating scene alltogether.

Even if this is in jest, I won't be roped into your self-defeatism by having words put it my mouth. I never said anything of the sort.

EDIT: Well in the morning I've reread that chatlog. I still blew an ape-sized hole in my foot, but i noticed that she asked me to get some other guy's number. When I was like "WTF" she said that I was busy playing Brawl so wtf else was she supposed to do? She made it sound like her making me get some other guy's number is payment for not paying attention to her, either at the party or at picnic day (where I admit I was paying more attention to her friend).

This is all turning into some stupid soap-opera bull crap.

I am voting seriously "Danger, Will Robinson..." at this point...

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 08:21 PM

Agreed. The decision that has been reached is to distance myself from the whole mess until a resolution. She's been jealous and possessive of me and yet at the same time rejecting me overtly.

To be fair she was really doting on me at the party and I had almost been ignoring her all day (see, she has this friend who happens to be like a female version of me who I instantly connected with and so we spent most of the day together) and she was pretty drunk. I'm still a bit tired of the game; however, so I'm putting distance.

My friend's term is "Girlfriend without benefits" as a play on the "friends with benefits" theme.

John Cribati

2010-04-18, 08:39 PM

Alright, I need a woman's point of view here. Lately, I've noticed that some girls I know have been getting a bit closer to me. For example, one girl just randomly started stroking my arm when she talks to me a few weeks ago. Another always does this little wave and fluctuates her voice when she says "Hi" to me. Is this some kind of signal, or am I just thinking too much into it?

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 08:44 PM

That's like... not even a question.

Oh to answer: Ye gods yes.

Pyrian

2010-04-18, 08:45 PM

Coidzor

2010-04-18, 09:24 PM

...Only by having to memorize Kiss the Girl for choir have I realized how disturbing it is to contemplate the mores and methods advocated by Disney songs.

x.x

Anyhoo, Herpestidae: 1. your name confuses and disturbs me.

2. I'm-a have to echo Pyrian here and say, while you can't take it concretely one way or another and some more context would be needed for an indepth analysis, if you're interested in one/both of them, you can find out if they are too.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2010-04-18, 09:30 PM

Too little information. I wish I had video! That being said, genuine signals are usually not so subtle; in my experience people are much more likely to mistake non-signals for signals than the vice-versa. Anyway, best way to find out is to ask them out if you're interested. :smallcool:

`cause honestly, the worst that happens is you get rejected. There are hundreds of worse things than getting rejected. Like having camel-spiders shoved down your pants.

John Cribati

2010-04-18, 09:33 PM

Anyhoo, Herpestidae: 1. your name confuses and disturbs me.

It's the scientific name for the mongoose family, just like Felidae is the cat family. The fact that my name begins with "herpes" is just an unfortunate coincidence that I decided to live with. It was either that or Bdeogale, which I can't really pronounce.

BSW

2010-04-18, 09:34 PM

`cause honestly, the worst that happens is you get rejected. There are hundreds of worse things than getting rejected. Like having camel-spiders shoved down your pants.

Or having your teeth explode. Don't doubt me... it can happen.

Seriously no one should be afraid of rejection. On of my best friends is a girl who I asked out and got rejected by. I wouldn't be as good friends with her if I hadn't outright asked her on a date and made it clear that that is what I was doing.

Never be afraid to ask. It's the only way you'll ever really know.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2010-04-18, 09:35 PM

Or having your teeth explode. Don't doubt me... it can happen.

Seriously no one should be afraid of rejection. On of my best friends is a girl who I asked out and got rejected by. I wouldn't be as good friends with her if I hadn't outright asked her on a date and made it clear that that is what I was doing.

Never be afraid to ask. It's the only way you'll ever really know.

I`ve been complimented on how well I take rejections. Multiple times. :smallsigh:

John Cribati

2010-04-18, 09:40 PM

I've been rejected a few times. There are worse things. (http://folk.ntnu.no/erlenkra/Daily%20Radar%20Feature%20-%2020%20Gnarliest%20Torture%20Devices%20of%20All%2 0Time.htm) (link to gory stuff.)

I'm also semi-committed in an on-again-off-again-blow-up-in-each-other's-faces-every-so-often kind of way.

Coidzor

2010-04-18, 09:40 PM

Hm... Next time shoot your exploding teeth at them, Gwylenny.

Herpes: Well. That was educational. I'm-a still be scared due to being afraid of mongeese.

Superglucose

2010-04-18, 10:13 PM

Whatever. Game over don't really care. Now she's luring me over with promises of hanging out with her friend K... which works because K is awesomesauce.

Tequila Sunrise

2010-04-18, 10:51 PM

Seriously no one should be afraid of rejection.
If only should meant is. :smallfrown:

I'm also semi-committed in an on-again-off-again-blow-up-in-each-other's-faces-every-so-often kind of way.
I apologize in advance for the incoming rage:

I can't help but roll my eyes every time I hear/see someone clinging to an on-again-off-again deal. I can't help but think "If it was going to work out, it would have worked out by now." Seriously, life is too short, take a chance. (Or just wait for an off-again period.) Especially if you have two girls after you!

'Kay, I'm done, do whatever you think is good for you.

John Cribati

2010-04-18, 11:09 PM

I can't help but roll my eyes every time I hear/see someone clinging to an on-again-off-again deal. I can't help but think "If it was going to work out, it would have worked out by now." Seriously, life is too short, take a chance. (Or just wait for an off-again period.) Especially if you have two girls after you!

I'm not really "clinging" to anything. She's a good friend of mine. It started a bit like play-acting, then it got serious, then it slowed down, and then it's... this. She shows romantic interest, and I go along. She gets bored, and we stop. Then she suddenly gets all snuggly with me. And then she gets bored with it again. But she keeps coming back. It's... odd. And for the record, our physical relationship never moved past first base and snuggling.

Pyrian

2010-04-18, 11:59 PM

`cause honestly, the worst that happens is you get rejected. There are hundreds of worse things than getting rejected. Like having camel-spiders shoved down your pants.It's true. I got rejected at least eight times last week, and it only hurt a lot. :smallamused: But not enough that I actually remember how many times I got rejected. Well, maybe I do, but I can only recall eight and I think there were more.

On-again-off-again: As long as there's no commitment to go along with the, well, lack of commitment, I don't really have a problem with it.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 12:00 AM

It's true. I got rejected at least eight times last week, and it only hurt a lot. :smallamused: But not enough that I actually remember how many times I got rejected. Well, maybe I do, but I can only recall eight and I think there were more.

On-again-off-again: As long as there's no commitment to go along with the, well, lack of commitment, I don't really have a problem with it.
...eight times... in a week? WOW. :smalleek: You, uh, you're a lot more forward than anyone I know.

Pyrian

2010-04-19, 12:05 AM

It was a cruise down the Mexican Riviera. I pretty much spent it dancing and flirting. :smallbiggrin: ...Not really normal behavior for me. :smallredface:

arguskos

2010-04-19, 12:07 AM

It was a cruise down the Mexican Riviera. I pretty much spent it dancing and flirting. :smallbiggrin: ...Not really normal behavior for me. :smallredface:
...ah. Well, yes, that would make a lot more sense, then! :smalltongue:

I was all, "woah, Pyrian is a serious player, totally didn't actually expect that o.O".

Pyrian

2010-04-19, 12:09 AM

Also, I got nowhere. :smallyuk:

Temotei

2010-04-19, 12:09 AM

...ah. Well, yes, that would make a lot more sense, then! :smalltongue:

I was all, "woah, Pyrian is a serious player, totally didn't actually expect that o.O".

Look at that hat and the matching expression though! :smalltongue:

Amiel

2010-04-19, 12:12 AM

For example, one girl just randomly started stroking my arm when she talks to me a few weeks ago[...]Is this some kind of signal, or am I just thinking too much into it?

I am not a woman, but I will give my point of view anyway:smalltongue:

Short answer: hell yes.
Long answer: hell yes.

Physical contact is always a sign of interest and perhaps future intimacy.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 12:13 AM

Also, I got nowhere. :smallyuk:
Well, the 8 strikes didn't imply otherwise. However, I'd assume you went SOMEWHERE, given that it was a cruise, meaning you were on a boat, and in theory at least, the boat moved. :smalltongue:

Pyrian

2010-04-19, 12:44 AM

Physical contact is always a sign of interest and perhaps future intimacy.I'm not convinced, there are a lot of different kinds of contact and they often mean very different things. Arm brushing is usually flirty, arm stroking is usually affectionate.

Amiel

2010-04-19, 12:54 AM

Arm stroking by the opposite gender in a "non-platonic way" is always a sign of interest (it is body language flirting, though it must be noted that this is only one sign of romantic interest); the light stroking can be a romantic invitation. Of course there will be different interpretations of body language and different gestures and ways of promoting interest, but if they were just friends, that behaviour would be considered disturbing :smalltongue:

Serpentine

2010-04-19, 12:56 AM

I'd replace "is always" with "can be". Absolute statements are rarely accurate.

Amiel

2010-04-19, 01:03 AM

Well, I'm going off personal experience and some of those "guides" (which, while admittedly sometimes nonsensical can be helpful if used sparingly); whenever some girl liked me, they would always find ways of touching me :smallbiggrin:
If you don't want to set yourself up for disappointment, by all means change the "always" to "can be," but for me, at least, hope springs eternal!

Pyrian

2010-04-19, 02:53 AM

Superglucose

2010-04-19, 04:22 AM

Well.

So the girl I've been talking about here for a long time? Yeah I went to her house (as I said) and we ended up playing Settlers of Catan. Eh, I'll spoil this for length. Some of it may be rehash and I apologize.

So last night we had a huge tiff. See, her friend K had come up for the weekend, and K and I hit it off like absurdly well when we first met months ago. Seriously, our brains were on the same wavelength. I was excited to talk to K again even though I knew K was involved in a relationship, and I'm not really like pursuing K. I just really like talking with her.

Saturday was Picnic Day, and basically it was the opportunity to wander the UCD campus. B, K, and a few other friends and I all went together. See, I was supposed to go to a party friday night with them, and I didn't because I got off work late. I almost went when I found out K was going to be there, tbh, but then backed out because I was too tired.

I arrived at B's apartment at ten, and found K sleeping on the couch. Eventually she woke up and I realized it was her and we ended up talking. Then we walked downtown (took about an hour) and during that walk, K and I spent most of our time just talking in general. When we got to Picnic Day, B wanted to watch the Dachshund races but there was a long line to get into the stadium.

Since K and I hated lines and wanted to be out in the nice spring sun, we declined and decided to wander a bit for ourselves. We watched the sheep dog trials, asked a woman how she got into sheep dogs, and even got to pet one who was ADORABLE. Anyways, pretty much the whole day was K and I hanging out with people around us.

Later that evening I had to jet so I could go to dinner with my best friend for his birthday, and afterwords we picked up B for my best friend's party which was after the dinner. We started playing Settlers of Catan and eventually I got too drunk to follow the game so i wandered off to play Smash Bros. Brawl. After playing a few rounds of Brawl (I kept winning somehow) it was apparently time to go. I don't remember this part well except that I never got any cake. Also that as we were leaving my best friend said, "It's ok if you stay here."

Well I went with my friend the DD and dropped off B at her place, at which she said, "Are you going to be on AIM tonight?" Yes, apparently, I was. So I got home and got on AIM and she got on to ask me a couple questions. The first was to get the facebook of some guy at the party. I teased her pretty hard, being very drunk and very hurt since I had already admitted some two days prior that I had a crush on her, and she was asking me to get another guy's info.

That turned into a whole *thing* which lead to me posting on the depression thread (long story short, no, it wasn't just this happening it was that this happened in conjunction with like twenty other things) and generally being freaked out about who I was. During this conversation she justified asking me for his contact info because "What was I supposed to do? You disappeared to play Brawl!" Couple that with a lot of her comments about being the perfect housewife for me because she got me drinks and "Of course I'm not into him! I'm not into anyone!" (during the spat). I admitted to her some of the stuf in my depression thread post.

Then today I was busy most of the time and she was very careful to say that her view of me hadn't changed since last night. Then she wanted me to come over, and bribed me with seeing K again. I gladly took the opportunity and we ended up playing Settlers of Catan again. During this game, I got screwed on start positions by making a bad choice and literally couldn't do anything all game. So B spent her time making sure that the bandit was on all of my plaes and always stole cards from me. I still was about two turns from winning when B finally won. Afterwords, K gave me a ride home and then we started walking and talking.

I had to tell her goodnight at about 2 am since I have a midterm today, but during the conversation there were tons of gems. One of the big ones was that we agreed with our opinions of B's ex bf. During, K mentioned taht she thought something really odd was going on between myself and B and that B was really upset. I told her I agree, that she had something she really wanted taken care of. I think that thing was our "fight."

Well I'm passing out from lack of sleep. More later if you want it.

Starbuck_II

2010-04-19, 06:48 AM

`cause honestly, the worst that happens is you get rejected. There are hundreds of worse things than getting rejected. Like having camel-spiders shoved down your pants.

That seems oddly specific...you haven't had that happen to you, have you?

Capt Spanner

2010-04-19, 07:06 AM

@Superglucose: It sounds like you may need to draw B some boundaries. Tell her she can't expect you to spend all your time around her (especially at parties where there are plenty of other...err...attractions) and that you feel that she's being possessive. Sure, it may hurt her at first, but she'll probably get over it. It sounds like you may have already done this - I haven't read your post in the depression thread.

If she's takes it so badly she doesn't want to see you anymore that is, frankly, more her loss than yours.

That seems oddly specific...you haven't had that happen to you, have you? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial)

Fix'd, to include obligatory TvTropes link.

Malfunctioned

2010-04-19, 09:18 AM

Okay, let's see where I can go with this. First of all I recently broke up with my girlfriend of the past year-and-a-bit. We both we're really happy in the relationship apart from some things that I had done almost a year ago (To be exact I cheated on her slightly VERY drunkenly, and yes I know that is not an excuse, I accept full responsibility and I do regret this more than anything else.) the only real problem was that she had some major issues, mostly trust issues from her ass-hole of a dad, she really couldn't deal with those anymore and well, we broke up, we're are still very good friends though, despite the feelings we both still have for each other. Here comes the complicated part. My ex, let's call her T, has an insanely strong phobia of being alone and because of this has already entered a relationship with someone else, now this guy is a nice guy but she really doesn't have any feelings for him she just needs to be with someone. I would be finding this a bit harder to cope with if it wasn't for the other stuff that's happening to me. As much as I don't want them I still have some modicum of feelings for the girl I did the cheating with (L), I also have feelings for a girl who for a long time was pretty much a sister to me (M) though for a long time I did have a crush on her, though this was before I was in a relationship with T, me and M have been flirting, mostly subconsciously on my part, and possibly on hers as well given the whole almost-like-siblings things. Though her ex-boyfriend, also a very close friend of mine (J) has noticed this and we have talked about it, pretty much coming to the conclusion that I've lost his respect and if I actually do anything about my feelings then I will lose him as a friend as well. T has actually come up to me and said that she's seen how happy I am around M and how happy she is around me and she actually told me to try and date her.

Now I'm not too sure what to do, should I try and be with M, possibly risking J's friendship or should I look elsewhere? Any advice would really be helpful. :smallsmile:

Umael

2010-04-19, 11:07 AM

Malfunctioned:

First of all, let me congratulate you on your name. Very appropriate, given your twisted little situation.

Next, might I suggest you spend a little more time on your communication. Paragraph breaks and re-vising your post would make it a little easier to understand what is going on.

That all said... yeesh.

One at a time:

You cheated on your girlfriend, T, almost a year ago, but that wasn't the right reason why you two broke up. Well, as a cheater, even if it was because you were drunk and all, you are going to bear a bit of a stigma. Not too good, but then the only people it should really affect is T, anyone you potentially date or are dating, and those whose opinions matter to you. Oh, and yourself. Cheating can be a killer to someone's self-esteem.

T now is with someone else. Um... okay. Well, that's her problem now, not yours. She is going to have to realize that she is only with her new boyfriend because she has a fear of being alone, or she is going to have to handle being a little, shall we say, unstable. If you are still good friends, be there for her, support her, but do not bring up the phobia or your opinions on the new beau. If she asks, if it comes up, fine, but do not be the person to bring it up.

On to L, the girl with whom you cheated, and for whom you actually have some feelings for. Given that you only grudgingly admit to having feelings but say nothing at all about her, there is not a lot to discuss. I.e., "I cheated on T with L, and I don't like it, but I have a little bit of feelings towards L." We have nothing to go on, and it is like you don't want us to have anything to go on - as if she was nothing but a distraction and a reminder at the same time. So obviously, you want her out of the picture.

Now we come to M, the potential interest. Lots on her, but little about what she actually thinks and what she actually knows. Does she know about L, does she actually like you, so on and so forth. Under normal circumstances, I would say that you should just talk to her and see if there is something there.

Except for J, M's ex. You said you lost his respect, but you don't make it clear exactly why - I would assume because J sees you as a cheater and does not want you to hurt M. Maybe T could take it, maybe T told J that you cheating on her with L hurt her, but she hide it from you. Except T said, "M and you seem so happy - go for it." The point is - you are basing your potential relationship on J's say-so.

Hmm...

Okay, two things.

1) J is not cool.
2) J might be right.

J might see you as a cheater and a threat to M, and he might have reason for it, but he hinted at an ultimatum - "Date M or keep me as your friend." Or maybe it was a threat - "Try to date M and you lose me as a friend." Sorry, but a friend doesn't do that. As a friend, he should say, "Dude, you messed up. You need to straighten out before you go and date M," but there is a hint of "I still am jealous about M and think of her as my girlfriend, so don't you dare date her." Were I in your shoes, I might try to date M just to spite J (well, not just to spite... I would hope I have feelings for M as well).

But I am not you (for which I am sure we are both thankful).

Because J might be right - you might not be good for M. You mentioned that you cheated on T (with L) - is there anything else you did that could come back to haunt M, if and when you two got into a relationship? Are you toxic for M, is M good for you, are there some unresolved issues with T or L that have not been addressed (and while we are at it, maybe J secretly has a thing for you - I don't know)?

If J's respect matters so much, if his friendship matters so much, then you need to see if that friendship is worth it, or is it better to risk that friendship and date M.

Good luck.

skywalker

2010-04-19, 04:17 PM

Later that evening I had to jet so I could go to dinner with my best friend for his birthday, and afterwords we picked up B for my best friend's party which was after the dinner. We started playing Settlers of Catan and eventually I got too drunk to follow the game so i wandered off to play Smash Bros. Brawl. After playing a few rounds of Brawl (I kept winning somehow) it was apparently time to go. I don't remember this part well except that I never got any cake. Also that as we were leaving my best friend said, "It's ok if you stay here."

Brawl is like this. Best Brawl matches of my life have been like this. I think it's cuz you forget that you're not that good. I've had people claim "I'm not used to playing this game sober" as an excuse for losing.

Well I went with my friend the DD and dropped off B at her place, at which she said, "Are you going to be on AIM tonight?" Yes, apparently, I was. So I got home and got on AIM and she got on to ask me a couple questions. The first was to get the facebook of some guy at the party. I teased her pretty hard, being very drunk and very hurt since I had already admitted some two days prior that I had a crush on her, and she was asking me to get another guy's info.

That turned into a whole *thing* which lead to me posting on the depression thread (long story short, no, it wasn't just this happening it was that this happened in conjunction with like twenty other things) and generally being freaked out about who I was. During this conversation she justified asking me for his contact info because "What was I supposed to do? You disappeared to play Brawl!" Couple that with a lot of her comments about being the perfect housewife for me because she got me drinks and "Of course I'm not into him! I'm not into anyone!" (during the spat). I admitted to her some of the stuf in my depression thread post.

Almost never a good idea to have serious discussions while intoxicated.

Then today I was busy most of the time and she was very careful to say that her view of me hadn't changed since last night. Then she wanted me to come over, and bribed me with seeing K again. I gladly took the opportunity and we ended up playing Settlers of Catan again. During this game, I got screwed on start positions by making a bad choice and literally couldn't do anything all game. So B spent her time making sure that the bandit was on all of my plaes and always stole cards from me. I still was about two turns from winning when B finally won. Afterwords, K gave me a ride home and then we started walking and talking.

I had to tell her goodnight at about 2 am since I have a midterm today, but during the conversation there were tons of gems. One of the big ones was that we agreed with our opinions of B's ex bf. During, K mentioned taht she thought something really odd was going on between myself and B and that B was really upset. I told her I agree, that she had something she really wanted taken care of. I think that thing was our "fight."

So... B is rather emotional. And she's being possessive, jerking you around, and generally not being cool to you. Even so, we should not go down the road of resenting her, labeling her, or otherwise forming a lynch mob (of either the estrogen or testosterone varieties).

We should remember that she is a person, she is confused, and people make mistakes, especially when confused. That said, you need to be up front with her about her behavior, explain that this "girlfriend without benefits" situation is really sub-optimal (driving you crazy, breaking your heart, etc), and that you would like her to either be your girlfriend, or stop being so possessive of a "friend." Don't be mean, angry, or judgmental. Just explain that she is not treating you as you would like to be treated, and how you would like to be treated. If she can't fulfill that, then leave the situation for a while (and actually do it, don't just pretend do it. Figure out how to get together with K without going thru B if you have to). In all likelihood, even if B is unwilling to treat you how you like now, she may realize in a few weeks/months how hurtful she's being.

Okay, let's see where I can go with this. First of all I recently broke up with my girlfriend of the past year-and-a-bit. We both we're really happy in the relationship apart from some things that I had done almost a year ago (To be exact I cheated on her slightly VERY drunkenly, and yes I know that is not an excuse, I accept full responsibility and I do regret this more than anything else.)

How slightly?

My ex, let's call her T, has an insanely strong phobia of being alone and because of this has already entered a relationship with someone else, now this guy is a nice guy but she really doesn't have any feelings for him she just needs to be with someone.

Not your problem.

I would be finding this a bit harder to cope with if it wasn't for the other stuff that's happening to me. As much as I don't want them I still have some modicum of feelings for the girl I did the cheating with (L),

Your inability to kill the feelings you acted on in the first place does not make you a bad person.

I also have feelings for a girl who for a long time was pretty much a sister to me (M) though for a long time I did have a crush on her, though this was before I was in a relationship with T, me and M have been flirting, mostly subconsciously on my part, and possibly on hers as well given the whole almost-like-siblings things. Though her ex-boyfriend, also a very close friend of mine (J) has noticed this and we have talked about it, pretty much coming to the conclusion that I've lost his respect and if I actually do anything about my feelings then I will lose him as a friend as well. T has actually come up to me and said that she's seen how happy I am around M and how happy she is around me and she actually told me to try and date her.

Now I'm not too sure what to do, should I try and be with M, possibly risking J's friendship or should I look elsewhere? Any advice would really be helpful. :smallsmile:

How did you lose his respect? Umael is operating on the assumption that you lost his respect by your actions with... L(isa, from now on). But this is not necessarily the case.

Regardless, I think J(ason) is being far too protective of M(egan). He honestly does sound pretty jealous and not as tho he has your happiness (and Megan's) at heart.

You cheated on your girlfriend, T, almost a year ago, but that wasn't the right reason why you two broke up. Well, as a cheater, even if it was because you were drunk and all, you are going to bear a bit of a stigma. Not too good, but then the only people it should really affect is T, anyone you potentially date or are dating, and those whose opinions matter to you. Oh, and yourself. Cheating can be a killer to someone's self-esteem.

Way too harsh. Cheating once doe not a "cheater" make. Labels are very unlikely to be constructive, etc. Don't call him a cheater. It's probably not helping that self-esteem you mentioned.

T now is with someone else. Um... okay. Well, that's her problem now, not yours. She is going to have to realize that she is only with her new boyfriend because she has a fear of being alone, or she is going to have to handle being a little, shall we say, unstable. If you are still good friends, be there for her, support her, but do not bring up the phobia or your opinions on the new beau. If she asks, if it comes up, fine, but do not be the person to bring it up.

Very true. Good advice.

On to L, the girl with whom you cheated, and for whom you actually have some feelings for. Given that you only grudgingly admit to having feelings but say nothing at all about her, there is not a lot to discuss. I.e., "I cheated on T with L, and I don't like it, but I have a little bit of feelings towards L." We have nothing to go on, and it is like you don't want us to have anything to go on - as if she was nothing but a distraction and a reminder at the same time. So obviously, you want her out of the picture.

Not necessarily. It's true we have very little to go on, but I think the rest of that line of reasoning needs to be stalled until we actually do have more information.

I consider it really inappropriate to base so much analysis off of the one incident with Lisa. If Jason is doing so, I think he's using faulty reasoning.

If Jason is not doing so, then he's just being jealous and way too protective of an ex.

What that boils down to is: Go for it with Megan. As long as you two actually get along, have chemistry, etc. Don't let Jason bog you down. He's not acting like a true friend.

Umael

2010-04-19, 05:12 PM

Way too harsh. Cheating once doe not a "cheater" make. Labels are very unlikely to be constructive, etc. Don't call him a cheater. It's probably not helping that self-esteem you mentioned.

True. Sorry.

I was more trying to go for the "you cheated, you might label yourself as a cheater, or more likely, J labeled you as a cheater" than actually doing any labeling myself.

Labels bad.

(For the record, I really do try to avoid labelling people, even if they are a repeat offender.)

(paraphrased) A lot of conjecture here, Umael

Sadly, yes. We are missing some information, so the extrapolation is a bit suspicious.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 05:16 PM

Temotei

2010-04-19, 05:18 PM

Tequila Sunrise

2010-04-19, 05:24 PM

Superglucose

2010-04-19, 05:26 PM

Brawl is like this. Best Brawl matches of my life have been like this. I think it's cuz you forget that you're not that good. I've had people claim "I'm not used to playing this game sober" as an excuse for losing.

The funny thing is my tech skill got BETTER when drunk. I think it's because we were using a laggy TV so it kind of balanced out the shortening of my reaction times. I know it took me three tries to figure out how to illusion to the edge :smalltongue:

So... B is rather emotional. And she's being possessive, jerking you around, and generally not being cool to you. Even so, we should not go down the road of resenting her, labeling her, or otherwise forming a lynch mob (of either the estrogen or testosterone varieties).
Been avoiding that like the plague. And now I'm avoiding her similarly. I'm actually happy D&D was cancelled tonight: that way I don't have to see B three days in a row.

golentan

2010-04-19, 05:34 PM

Ok, cause it's been mentioned a few times now, I have a query.

Is there any situation in which cheating is ever considered not terribly horrible behavior? I've been thinking about the fact that I have a really harsh stance towards such behavior, and if I'm being overly rough or not, but I cannot think of a SINGLE circumstance in which cheating is anything but a bad idea. Anyone have something I've not thought of?

No. Cheating is never anything good, because it is the betrayal someone's trust for your own selfish pleasure. Someone you ostensibly care about. Maybe it's a lie behind their back, or maybe it's your way to break up with someone, or maybe it's a moment of weakness and you feel really bad afterwards and tell them. In the first case, you don't care about the potential for the emotional suffering of those involved, in the second case you are a COLOSSAL **** (Seriously, take five seconds BEFORE to say "Oh, I'm breaking up with you" rather than "I don't care about you and to prove it I slept with someone else, Nyah-Nyah"), and in the third case you have damaged the trust even if that wasn't your intent, and have to build it back if that is even possible.

That said, I do distinguish between cheating and Extra Pair Copulation. Cheating = (as the name implies) breaking the rules of the relationship. It is EPC without the knowledge and consent of the other party in the pair. EPCs by themselves are fine if you're in a relationship that allows them. Just be sure to practice safe sex in such cases.

Syka

2010-04-19, 05:36 PM

Ok, cause it's been mentioned a few times now, I have a query.

Is there any situation in which cheating is ever considered not terribly horrible behavior? I've been thinking about the fact that I have a really harsh stance towards such behavior, and if I'm being overly rough or not, but I cannot think of a SINGLE circumstance in which cheating is anything but a bad idea. Anyone have something I've not thought of?

Shortish answer since I'm in class: No. If someone has a gun to your head (or a loved ones), that is not cheating, that's more along the lines of rape.

Pretty much there is no reason for cheating that makes it OK. There are reasons that make sense, but none that make it not a bad thing. There are other ways to solve issues than by cheating. I mean, if your partner is going to beat you for leaving them, chances are they'd beat you for cheating on them (etc.).

Last week PostSecret had a postcard that read something along the lines of "I rationalized that cheating on my wife was OK because she didn't seem to trust me whether or not I was. I was wrong. I gave up being the guy who would never hurt her like that."

That says it all. It's not the act itself, it's the deception and betrayal that comes along with cheating that makes it bad. And it's something you can never get back. I mean, someone might forgive you and stay with you, but I have never heard anyone who was ever able to trust their partner like they did prior to the betrayal.

NOW, it can have good outcomes. In my case, the good outweighed the bad when I was able to take a step back, but in all honesty...I'd rather have never had to go through it. It's not a regret, since it's not something I have any control over (being the one cheated on rather than the cheater), but if I DID have the power to change it...I'd almost rather stay in the situation than deal with the fall out.

ETA: And as the above person mentioned, there is a difference between cheating and having a secondary relationship. The key difference is deception. Without deception, there is no cheating.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 05:38 PM

No. Cheating is never anything good, because it is the betrayal someone's trust for your own selfish pleasure. Someone you ostensibly care about. Maybe it's a lie behind their back, or maybe it's your way to break up with someone, or maybe it's a moment of weakness and you feel really bad afterwards and tell them. In the first case, you don't care about the potential for the emotional suffering of those involved, in the second case you are a COLOSSAL **** (Seriously, take five seconds BEFORE to say "Oh, I'm breaking up with you" rather than "I don't care about you and to prove it I slept with someone else, Nyah-Nyah"), and in the third case you have damaged the trust even if that wasn't your intent, and have to build it back if that is even possible.
Oh, you don't have to sell me on the evils of such behavior. I am embittered about it for a reason, after all.

I was just curious if anyone had a situation where it was even justified, however poorly.

That said, I do distinguish between cheating and Extra Pair Copulation. Cheating = (as the name implies) breaking the rules of the relationship. It is EPC without the knowledge and consent of the other party in the pair. EPCs by themselves are fine if you're in a relationship that allows them. Just be sure to practice safe sex in such cases.
Such things are for another discussion, I think, but yes, I do distinguish as well.

EDIT: Syka, that's what I was looking for. Thanks, and that's about what I thought, but wanted to know if others thought the same.

skywalker

2010-04-19, 08:45 PM

Is there any situation in which cheating is ever considered not terribly horrible behavior? I've been thinking about the fact that I have a really harsh stance towards such behavior, and if I'm being overly rough or not, but I cannot think of a SINGLE circumstance in which cheating is anything but a bad idea. Anyone have something I've not thought of?

No, it's never not a bad idea. BUT, "terribly horrible behavior" again seems a bit harsh. Nobody's perfect. If your imperfection is you once cheated on someone, I'm not going to hold it against you.

Last week PostSecret had a postcard that read something along the lines of "I rationalized that cheating on my wife was OK because she didn't seem to trust me whether or not I was. I was wrong. I gave up being the guy who would never hurt her like that."

Yeah, that's a tough one to give up. It does really hurt. But I think it's important to forgive yourself and start moving on from today.

That says it all. It's not the act itself, it's the deception and betrayal that comes along with cheating that makes it bad. And it's something you can never get back. I mean, someone might forgive you and stay with you, but I have never heard anyone who was ever able to trust their partner like they did prior to the betrayal.

I vote that it is possible. I have been on both sides of that transaction of trusting your partner just as you did before the betrayal. Possibly trusting them more, because it is in some ways something that self-corrects.

Obviously, there are people that act a certain way, for whom the power dynamic is something they're exploiting. There are people who simply don't care.

But in my opinion, most people aren't that way. Most people make a mistake, because they have an inaccurate understanding of things. Or, they get caught up in a moment and forget themselves. And those people say "my God, I did a terrible thing. I am going to try and make amends, and take steps to prevent it from ever happening again."

Something along the lines of "you promise me it will never happen again. And knowing exactly how you feel, I believe you, and trust you."

Froogleyboy

2010-04-19, 09:13 PM

arguskos

2010-04-19, 09:16 PM

No, it's never not a bad idea. BUT, "terribly horrible behavior" again seems a bit harsh. Nobody's perfect. If your imperfection is you once cheated on someone, I'm not going to hold it against you.
I am very very bitter, thus my wording. :smallannoyed: Though, point taken.

Syka

2010-04-19, 09:31 PM

Here's the thing...I've known people who have moved forward in their relationship or whatever after cheating. HOWEVER, I've not talked to a single person (and I've talked to many) who said that the trust was back to how it was before the betrayal and that there was still an element of distrust.

Also, most knew exactly what they were doing and the effect it would have on their relationship if the partner found out. Very, VERY few didn't think it through before hand. It's that the cheating (whether emotional or physical) gave them gratification in something they weren't getting from their partner.

The PS wasn't about not forgiving themselves, it was about how they thought there wouldn't be an issue but there was an unintended consequence.

I can say from experience it is a very tempting thing. In a long distance relationship that has emotionally deteriorated, it's also hard to resist when you know there is someone willing. BUT it is possible to resist and if you give in, it's because you want to- not because you 'forgot yourself'. If nothing else, you make sure you aren't in a situation where you'd be tempted (there is a reason I would not hang out with a particular male friend of mine alone towards the last months of my relationship with my ex...'cause I knew I'd want to be physically close to someone, that he'd be receptive, and that I couldn't bear doing that to my then boyfriend).

Basically....I don't buy cheating as something that 'just happens'.

Sure...you happened to forget for half an hour that you have a relationship, or you tripped and whoops! you're having sex. Right.:smallannoyed:

Doesn't fly for me. All that does is try and excuse an inexcusable behavior.

Superglucose

2010-04-19, 09:45 PM

arguskos

2010-04-19, 10:01 PM

That being said, I'm more likely to excuse it if there's copious amounts of alcohol involved. I mean, like, you're at a party and I couldn't come or I left early for whatever reason. Maybe I had to work? Maybe I got sick at the party? Who knows. You drink a lot and then realize "Oh crap, that guy in my bed isn't Superglucose" and then you say, "SG, last night after you left I got hella drunk and apparently had sex with some other guy."

That's a scenario where I'm much more likely to forgive you than not, especially if you're honest about it and come tell me, sooner the better.
And you wouldn't be annoyed that they have such poor judgment that they're willing to get totally trashed, and hook up with some other guy randomly (even if by accident, though, that's hard to buy)? I'd be disappointed in their judgment and angry about their actions afterwards. This is probably why I'm single though.

Coidzor

2010-04-19, 10:07 PM

Super Glucose: Not the best example.

Since, if they know they can get that stupid while drunk, they have a responsibility to themselves and others not to indulge to that extent and not to do it without a safety net. If it's the first time they're indulging in such a way, then they shouldn't have been unattended in the first place. And so on.

And a number of the reasons why you're still legally liable for it even while if both parties were blacked out drunk.

No, it's never not a bad idea. BUT, "terribly horrible behavior" again seems a bit harsh. Nobody's perfect. If your imperfection is you once cheated on someone, I'm not going to hold it against you.

I think one of the biggest problems is that there's the atmosphere that it is like this. Thus making it worse to ever let anyone know than to continue in the behavior due to the power/risk of blackmail.

So many people, when it does come up, treat it as something of the perma-broken person who is irredeemably borked and better off dead. Like rapists or sociopaths.

Superglucose

2010-04-19, 10:08 PM

And you wouldn't be annoyed that they have such poor judgment that they're willing to get totally trashed, and hook up with some other guy randomly (even if by accident, though, that's hard to buy)? I'd be disappointed in their judgment and angry about their actions afterwards. This is probably why I'm single though.
I would be annoyed, hurt, disappointed, and upset.

But here's the thing: I can forgive too. I can let wounds heal and move on, and sometimes people don't hurt you on purpose, they just act stupid. I act stupid all the time. Acting with malice, which would be hiding it, etc., would be inexcusable however and neigh unforgivable.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 10:13 PM

I would be annoyed, hurt, disappointed, and upset.

But here's the thing: I can forgive too. I can let wounds heal and move on, and sometimes people don't hurt you on purpose, they just act stupid. I act stupid all the time. Acting with malice, which would be hiding it, etc., would be inexcusable however and neigh unforgivable.
Fair enough. I didn't really parse that out from your post, but it makes a lot more sense now. Thanks. And now, to stop talking.

skywalker

2010-04-19, 10:38 PM

She's really starting to make me mad! I needed someone to talk to today and I tried to get her attention, and she was avoiding I fianally said "Girl, I need to talk to you!" she turned around with tears in her eyes and said "You gonna hit me if we don't?" and she ran off. I've never been so shocked in my life

She is in an abusive relationship. While to you, he hit her, and then you hit him, it doesn't necessarily parse that way to her. What's important is you hit him. Now she has all these feelings (misguided?) surrounding you. And you are not the person to change those feelings. Another thing to consider is that he appears to solve problems physically. Why would she want to talk to you when you also have shown that you (at least occasionally) solve problems physically?

This is a problem that needs to be solved by somebody else, not you.

What you really shouldn't be doing is getting angry. The physically/emotionally abused girl who you have a crush on should not be the person you go to when you need to talk. She should be pretty much last on your list (well, probably above the guy you recently punched in the face).

I am very very bitter, thus my wording. :smallannoyed: Though, point taken.

Would you like to...
<<
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Stop being very, very bitter?

Here's the thing...I've known people who have moved forward in their relationship or whatever after cheating. HOWEVER, I've not talked to a single person (and I've talked to many) who said that the trust was back to how it was before the betrayal and that there was still an element of distrust.

You are talking to me. :smallsmile:

Also, most knew exactly what they were doing and the effect it would have on their relationship if the partner found out. Very, VERY few didn't think it through before hand. It's that the cheating (whether emotional or physical) gave them gratification in something they weren't getting from their partner.

I can say from experience it is a very tempting thing. In a long distance relationship that has emotionally deteriorated, it's also hard to resist when you know there is someone willing. BUT it is possible to resist and if you give in, it's because you want to- not because you 'forgot yourself'. If nothing else, you make sure you aren't in a situation where you'd be tempted (there is a reason I would not hang out with a particular male friend of mine alone towards the last months of my relationship with my ex...'cause I knew I'd want to be physically close to someone, that he'd be receptive, and that I couldn't bear doing that to my then boyfriend).

Basically....I don't buy cheating as something that 'just happens'.

Sure...you happened to forget for half an hour that you have a relationship, or you tripped and whoops! you're having sex. Right.:smallannoyed:

Doesn't fly for me. All that does is try and excuse an inexcusable behavior.

I consider it "forgetting yourself" to forget that your partner's feelings mean more to you than your own immediate gratification. I consider it "forgetting yourself" to forget how much a promise means. No, you don't forget that you have a relationship, and you don't trip, those are silly ways to characterize it.

But it is possible, in the context of hurt and emotions, to forget some important things about yourself. And it doesn't help those who have forgotten important truths about themselves to treat them so poorly when they have.

Also, I'm not of a mind to think that "cheating on her slightly" is sex. Sex is different from kissing, kissing is different from fondling, etc. There are different levels and... intensities of cheating.

Also, while you can certainly prevent a lot of borderline situations from occurring, they can also turn up without you intending them to.

For instance:

And you wouldn't be annoyed that they have such poor judgment that they're willing to get totally trashed, and hook up with some other guy randomly (even if by accident, though, that's hard to buy)? I'd be disappointed in their judgment and angry about their actions afterwards. This is probably why I'm single though.

Maybe she got trashed while SG was there (IE, with SG, expecting him to crawl into bed with her), but then he left (maybe to play Brawl?) and she was drunkenly sad, etc, etc.

arguskos

2010-04-19, 10:46 PM

Would you like to...
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>>
Stop being very, very bitter?
Working on it, am still bitter, will stop posting in the meantime. :smalltongue:

Maybe she got trashed while SG was there (IE, with SG, expecting him to crawl into bed with her), but then he left (maybe to play Brawl?) and she was drunkenly sad, etc, etc.
Already found out what I wanted, thanks to SG's clarification. And, given his clarification, I understand perfectly. No need to hit me with the "get over it" bat further. :smallwink:

Superglucose

2010-04-19, 11:19 PM

Maybe she got trashed while SG was there (IE, with SG, expecting him to crawl into bed with her), but then he left (maybe to play Brawl?) and she was drunkenly sad, etc, etc.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA... that's totally what happened too and now we're fighting because of it.

Agamid

2010-04-20, 12:34 AM

Dori

2010-04-20, 12:39 AM

yikes

you could probably get him to sit somewhere quiet and comfortable where you two can feel comfortable to talk about it. And don't expect him to change immediately after the talk. It takes a lot of effort and time for a person to change.

Or you could act the same way as him if all else fails. See how he likes his own medicine.

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 12:55 AM

urg... i haven't dated a boy in so long. emotionally they are so different to girls and i don't know how to bring things up with him.
Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

And I have to be very honest, I think you're not seeing the whole truth here. Maybe you should double and triple check that the story you're telling us is the story of what's going on. Ask a friend if that's what they see first, because if it is as you've described the relationship talk should probably go like this:

"We should see other people."

If you're overreacting (which is hopefully likely considering you seem to want to stay with a guy who thinks you're an idiot) then the relationship talk should probably start like this:

"I'm sorry I was overreacting to {thing you said} but at the same time, I wish you wouldn't say things like that because it really hurts me."

EDIT:

Or you could act the same way as him if all else fails. See how he likes his own medicine.
No. no no no no no. This is bad ideatm.

Zeb The Troll

2010-04-20, 01:18 AM

Agamid - This doesn't have to be as worrisome as it might first appear. A conversation that states simply that you don't find this behavior acceptable from a boyfriend would be the best way to go about it. Be direct. Get to the point. Keep it short if you can. I imagine the opener would go something like this...

Boy, I know you have to show off to your friends to prove how manly you are and that sometimes that involves belittling people and ideas, but I'm your girlfriend and that makes me and my ideas not fair game, least of all while I'm sitting right there. I don't think I'm asking too much.It would probably be best to have the conversation alone, obviously, but I don't think it needs a lot of fanfair or drama attached to it.

There may need to be more conversation to it if either he doesn't understand where you're coming from or if he's overly sensitive about being called out on it.

Honestly, I would have thought this was common sense (the "don't belittle your SO to your friends" part, not the "how to talk to boys" part). I mean, I wouldn't want people believing I didn't think very much of my girl for any reason, and attacking her personal beliefs publically seems it would send exactly that message.

Also, I agree with SG that the "give him a taste of his own medicine" tactic is ill advised.

Pyrian

2010-04-20, 01:26 AM

i've been dating this guy for a month now...Male weirdness: when you had a girlfriend, I was like cool whatever, but now that you have a boyfriend I'm totally envious of him. :smalltongue:

...i really don't know how to bring it up without freaking him out as we are still a pretty new couple and he's... well, younger than me and i don't know if he's ever been in a proper emotional relationship before.Not freaking him out may not be possible (nor even desirable), at the end of the day you're telling him his behavior is unacceptable and asking him to change said behavior, neither of which tend to go over well with much of anyone.

i just need to let him know that i don't appreciate the way he acts when he's around his friends and he sometimes needs to think before he opens his mouth and attacks my personal beliefs as it can really upset me. i don't mind that he doesn't share my beliefs and i don't mind knowing that he thinks they're complete crap, but he doesn't need to viciously attack them with his friends in my presence....Yeah, that's not cool, and as SG said it's a bad sign all around.

If you're really determined to not further "drama-fy" the situation, then your best bet is to approach it as if it weren't a big deal, even though it is. Simply ask him not to do that any more. Something like, "Please don't criticize my beliefs when we're in public together, okay?" Maybe add "It's hurtful." depending on how things go.

If that's not enough - and it may not be - go to the big guns. Men in particular sometimes need to be hit upside the head with a hammer to get the point. (When gentle or subtle communication doesn't work, it's often because significant portions of the message simply aren't being received.) One rather over-powered technique is "Out The Front Door," an memory aid for "Observation Thought Feeling Desire", a structure for being understood by eliminating avenues for assumptions, something like:

Observation: "When we were out with our friends yesterday you said '*' to them."
Thought: "That seemed very disrespectful and really kind of vicious of you. I think I deserve to be treated better."
Feeling: "It upsets me, as I feel belittled and uncared about, and that makes me angry."
Desire: "I wish you'd think twice about what you say about me and my beliefs in public like that."

Careful with that technique, BTW, it's potent. While it's never failed me per se, every single time I've used it, the recipient burst into tears!

Umael

2010-04-20, 02:11 AM

RE: Cheating

I know I came across a bit harsh (and for that, I blame a post written in haste) about cheating last time, so let me get my thoughts out.

Cheating is bound with a lot of implications, but often little is explicitly stated. What constitutes cheating for one person in a relationship may not be considered cheating for the other, and if there is not communication, these differences may not be identified soon enough and addressed. However, there are a few socially accepted norms.

(Ex: In couple 1, partner A is very jealous. Looking at another potential mate is considered cheating - this is outside the norm. If partner B does not know this because partner A never mentioned this, partner B is not cheating by looking.

In couple 2, partner C is into open relationships - this is also outside the norm. If partner C does not communicate this and has sex with someone other than partner D, this is considered cheating.)

That all said, there are a number of instances where cheating is, if not "okay", easy to understand and forgive. These instances are also few, far between, and likely quite extraordinary. For example, if a mob boss's wife was sick of her husband, but afraid of her life if she tried to divorce or leave him, her having an affair is understandable and forgivable.

(For the record, I do not recommend having sex with a mob boss's wife. Just saying.)

As has been said, it is not the act of cheating (using sex), but the betrayal and the breaking of the trust that matter.

It is worth pointing out that there is a difference in how society handles the one who cheats and the one who enables the cheater - especially if the enabler is aware that this is cheating. "He never told me that he was married" is a cry that condemns the cheater from both sides and is a lot worse for "him". "Yeah, I knew he was married, but I loved him," can make the enabler look worse than the cheater "himself".

(For the records, I knew a guy who had an affair with a married woman. The woman's husband had cheated on her multiple times. Strangely enough, this affair gave the woman the backbone to tell her husband she could do without him and that he had to stop his cheating or she would leave him. So, yes, it is possible for that to have been cheating, but it was for the better.)

Serpentine

2010-04-20, 02:49 AM

Zeb The Troll

2010-04-20, 02:54 AM

That all said, there are a number of instances where cheating is, if not "okay", easy to understand and forgive. These instances are also few, far between, and likely quite extraordinary. For example, if a mob boss's wife was sick of her husband, but afraid of her life if she tried to divorce or leave him, her having an affair is understandable and forgivable.It's funny that this exact scenario was brought up earlier as an example of "still not good". Especially when coupled with "if she's afraid of what he'll do if she leaves him, what does she think he'll do when he finds out about the cheating?"

(For the records, I knew a guy who had an affair with a married woman. The woman's husband had cheated on her multiple times. Strangely enough, this affair gave the woman the backbone to tell her husband she could do without him and that he had to stop his cheating or she would leave him. So, yes, it is possible for that to have been cheating, but it was for the better.)Are you implying that she wasn't cheating just because her husband did it to her first? I disapprove of her reciprocal cheating as much as I do of his initial cheating. Two wrongs and all that. As for the less bad outcome, there are other ways to gain confidence than testing the waters extramaritally, especially if we define cheating as "sexual contact between a married person and someone other than their spouse without the spouse's knowledge or consent". She could have gone on a date and then come home knowing she's still desirable without crossing that line. Though I submit that even that solution is less than perfect.

Coidzor

2010-04-20, 03:40 AM

Would you like to...
<<
>>
Stop being very, very bitter?

As I've said earlier, I find rosemary helps get the bitterness out of roast pork. Humans taste like pork, so....:smallamused: So maybe it's time to pay a visit to Scarborough Fair.

urg... i haven't dated a boy in so long. emotionally they are so different to girls and i don't know how to bring things up with him.

Open mouth, words come out. If necessary have him bound and gagged until it's time for his rebuttal. If things work out, enjoy fun times with that.

Of course, what Julian Jared Alan Pudding-Troll (J.J.A.P.T.) said works fine too.

Male weirdness: when you had a girlfriend, I was like cool whatever, but now that you have a boyfriend I'm totally envious of him. :smalltongue:

Heh, and here I pity him for the same sort of reasons.

One rather over-powered technique is "Out The Front Door," an memory aid for "Observation Thought Feeling Desire", a structure for being understood by eliminating avenues for assumptions, [...]
Careful with that technique, BTW, it's potent. While it's never failed me per se, every single time I've used it, the recipient burst into tears!

Are you sure you weren't accidentally throwing them out the front door while doing this?

Take my Boy's family:

Familicide. Exists for a reason. :smallannoyed: Mostly because of crazy necromancers.

Serpentine

2010-04-20, 04:08 AM

But that would kill him, too :smallfrown: And he loves his mum and his nan - the latter raised him for a significant portion of his early years. Of course, she herself was originally abused by her own father... Considering the family history, it's quite likely that his parents abused him in turn. So maybe if we sent... someone... back in time to fix up one of his ancestors, that would fix it all...

horngeek

2010-04-20, 04:53 AM

On cheating: Bad. Always. Bad, bad, bad.

Does it make you a bad person? Well, not any more than any other human- There's a saying about casting the first stone here. Essentially, at its core, it's not caring for someone else's feelings.

But we've all done that (not caring for someone else's feelings, not cheating) at least once, and probably more than that. Does it make it acceptable? Heck no. It should be avoided whenever possible.

But I won't socially stigmatise someone for it.

Serpentine

2010-04-20, 05:36 AM

I have no doubt that I'm biased in this, but I would consider serial cheating without a hint of remorse or learning from it (or even considering it a mistake) edging someone towards being a bad person.

Malfunctioned

2010-04-20, 05:38 AM

Starbuck_II

2010-04-20, 07:54 AM

i've been dating this guy for a month now (a month as of yesterday as he informed me) and it's time for the first relationship talk, and i really don't know how to bring it up without freaking him out as we are still a pretty new couple and he's... well, younger than me and i don't know if he's ever been in a proper emotional relationship before.

i just need to let him know that i don't appreciate the way he acts when he's around his friends and he sometimes needs to think before he opens his mouth and attacks my personal beliefs as it can really upset me. i don't mind that he doesn't share my beliefs and i don't mind knowing that he thinks they're complete crap, but he doesn't need to viciously attack them with his friends in my presence.

urg... i haven't dated a boy in so long. emotionally they are so different to girls and i don't know how to bring things up with him.
Hogwash. We are similar enough emotionally, but society/upbringing tells us guys to repress emotions. We get taught in media, movies, songs, school, etc that guys don't share emotion: they are stoic.

So every time he might want to share: he can't because he doesn't want to be seen as weak, worthless, or "a gay". Not many guys are comfortable being individuals (at least in public).

Although, attacking your beliefs is definately not considerate of you. He may have done it to gain approval/attention of the friends, but that doesn't excuse it.

Tell him sometime: "When my beliefs are attacked publically, it hurts me. Why would someone do that to me?

You don't want to attack him, make it about yourself. People get defensive if you make it about them.
Maybe he doesn't realize it hurts you so much.

Syka

2010-04-20, 09:13 AM

Just to clarify things here, I said 'slightly' cheating because any time that I've tried to explain what had happened to people the mere mention of the word cheating brings people to the conclusion that me and L had sex. Which we did not. The truth is that I did kiss her and apparently (Drunken memory is not my friend.) there was some heavy petting involved. That's as far as it went. I am in no way agreeing with my actions and in my view cheating is never a good thing and I don't feel there is ever a good reason to do it.

I figured you guys hadn't slept together, mostly because that is what my ex did to me, just sans alcohol. I still don't know who the instigator of the event was, but I do know HE even thought it was cheating and I'm assuming it was more than just 'a' kiss with him, too.

Umael, I already addressed the whole thing about "if scared for life if one leaves" issue. Pretty much- it's an idiotic reasoning. Honestly...if your partner will hurt/kill you over leaving, what do you seriously think they'd do if you cheated on them? :smallconfused:

I also commented on it having a good outcome. It actually had a fantastic outcome for me. I was out of a bad relationship, I saved 60k+ in school loans I would have had, and I learned what NOT to do in a relationship.

It still hurt like hell and part of me would never want it to happen, regardless of the benefits. It definitely had a positive impact on me, usually it feels more positive than negative.

But oh boy, the times when the negative parts show...I hate it. Over three years past it and I KNOW I still have issues from it.

Skywalker, it really is awesome you and/or your partner were able to get past it. But one example out of literally hundreds of people I've talked to doesn't change my opinion. I don't think it is amiss to say in well over 90% of relationships that remain intact after cheating has come to light are not the same.

Also, you're reasons are still flimsy excuses for something that is inexcusable. Lashing out at partner? That shows some major communication and relationship issues. Cheating will only further the problems. "Forgetting" a promise? Wth? Seriously....how do you "forget" that you have committed to someone?

As my mom would say, it explains it but it doesn't excuse it. Even being drunk is not a good excuse. If you're liable to do that drunk, keep someone you trust around. If you don't know what you do drunk, keep someone you trust around. Hell, it's probably a good idea to keep someone whose sober whom you trust around anyway.

Maybe it's just me, but there is no excuse that makes cheating even close to OK. Hell, my friend is schizophrenic and his meds weren't helping much, we think he had a manic episode and ended up breaking up with his fiance by moving in with another girl. That I can understand...but it would still be grounds for not giving the relationship a second chance. It's not I don't think he'd change so much as, I wouldn't want to risk it happening again.

I don't believe once a cheater, always I cheater.

I do believe once a cheater with me, always a cheater with me. The majority of people, once they know they can get away with something...they'll keep trying to get away with it. Not all, but the risk is not worth it to me. Yes, this even applies to someone like Oz. If he cheated on me, there is no way I'd want to risk it again. So so much of me would want to give him a second chance, but dragging myself through the insecurity and all isn't worth it. I know other people are willing to try, but I am not one of them. Cheating (emotional or physical) and abuse (emotional or physical) are both grounds for immediate relationship termination. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

As an aside, I don't think cheating once makes you a serial cheater or a bad person. People make mistakes. Some mistakes are just bigger than others.

The Neoclassic

2010-04-20, 11:08 AM

Hey, I have a problem I'd appreciate being able to talk to someone about... But it's a bit complicated and unconventional (and probably will end up in some topics not appropriate to discuss on the thread). If there's anyone who is a regular sort of advice giver and has some experience with open relationships / polyamory and is willing to PM me to talk a bit, I'd really appreciate it. If not, that's cool too- I know you folks are really busy. :smallredface:

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 12:09 PM

Right, ok, so I think I need to actually do a Serpentine-style rant here to show why two things said in this thread are going to kill any possible chance people have at healthy relationships because they are thoughts I see all to friggen' often and are even more scary to me than the concept of a "friends zone."

urg... i haven't dated a boy in so long. emotionally they are so different to girls and i don't know how to bring things up with him.
Excuse me? We don't feel the same emotions? We don't react the same way? No, you see, that's just because someone along the line told you that. In fact, it turns out that guys, emotionally speaking, are very similar to girls in terms of what they feel regarding most situations. The main difference is how they react to those feelings, and almost all of the blame for that can be squarely placed on society.

There seems to be this strange idea going around that men don't have emotions, that if we feel anything we're "weird," and most absurdly, that men don't have issues with self image. That last one especially drives me bonkers because it seems caught up in this movement against the advertising companies. I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say "Girls deserve to have the same confidence as any guy!" As a guy I can tell you right now: I doubt myself and my looks all the time, and I know I'm not the only one.

So when he's calling out your beliefs in public, he's doing it because he's concerned about his image dating someone with "stupid" beliefs (since, let's not mince words, that's what he thinks). He needs to gain back his "credit" and the way he does that is by dumping on you. That's not his emotions that are different from yours; as a general rule of thumb, humans experience the same range of emotions in approximately the same situations. It's why there's the "5 stages of grief" and not "the 7 stages of grief for women, and the 3 stages of grief for men." The difference there is how he reacts, which is pretty much as society tells him: in order for a man to climb to the top, he must step on everyone else. Example? Shows like "The Apprentice" where Donald Trump treats everyone like dirt, and look how powerful he is!

If you go into a relationship thinking "He doesn't feel the same feelings I do" then you're going to say silly, untrue, and VERY hurtful things like "You can't understand what I'm going through because you're a man." This is directed at all you ladies out there, by the by. Your boyfriend does understand your feelings, you just have to tell him what they are. Oh, and here's the funny part: that's not because men are "stunted" emotionally speaking. It's because they're told they're "stunted" so they avoid assuming, which is a good thing.

That brings me to another point entirely, and this goes for men, women, and martians: don't assume, it makes an ass out of u and me. Don't say, "Aha! I know how you're feeling!" Ask. Always ask, because people like talking about themselves, and people don't like being "figured out." I mean if you see your girlfriend or boyfriend crying, it's ok to say "What has you so sad?" but for the most part you should be asking about their feelings rather than telling about their feelings.

Finally, this:

Or you could act the same way as him if all else fails. See how he likes his own medicine.

I know I said this was a bad idea, but I don't think I stressed how terrible an idea this is. An eye for an eye will leave the world blind. When he treats you like **** and your response is "Let's treat him like **** to see how he likes it," you are basically saying, "I want to hurt him."

You should not want to hurt someone you're in a relationship with (well, outside of BDSM situations, I don't judge) and even saying it is... well it shows that you either need to grow up or get out of that relationship because either you don't understand that wanting to hurt someone is a Bad Thingtm or you actually hate the person you're with and wish them ill... in which case just break up with them. It'll hurt them plenty, trust me.

As a foot note, it's funny to see that 5 stages because I can recognize them in my friend B.

Denial: as soon as she and Dan broke up she was telling herself they'd be back together soon, and even tried her hardest to not let him go.

Anger: Well yeah I took the brunt of that last week. She was lashing out at me quite a bit.

Bargaining: Didn't see this one.

Depression: This is where I think she is now, based on certain comments made by other people.

Acceptance: can it hurry up and get here? :smalltongue:

Also: at Agamid, I don't dislike you, just your statement set me off :smallwink: I would get a second opinion from one of your friends though because it strikes me as extremely unlikely that you should be in a relationship with someone who has that opinion about your beliefs, no matter how lonely you are.

Umael

2010-04-20, 12:24 PM

Are you implying that she wasn't cheating just because her husband did it to her first?

No.

Look, I'm not going to get into it. This was something that I got secondhand, so I'm giving it to you thirdhand. Playing telephone and all that.

My point of that was I could see what pushed her to do it. It was understandable and forgiveable. I said nothing about whether it was wrong or not.

I disapprove of her reciprocal cheating as much as I do of his initial cheating. Two wrongs and all that.

That's fine. That is you.

Me? I don't. If someone cheats because they are hurt by their partner's serial cheating, I am far more likely to forgive that person than that person's partner.

As for the less bad outcome, there are other ways to gain confidence than testing the waters extramaritally, *snip*...Though I submit that even that solution is less than perfect.

I think that last part is the crux of it. People often find themselves in bad situations, sometimes because of a lack of control or a history of bad choices, often both.

Was there a better way? Yes. There always is, for just about every choice ever made. Human nature and all - but that is a discussion for another thread.

I also commented on it having a good outcome.

If you, for a second, believed that any of what I wrote was directed towards you, please allow me to disabuse you of that notion.

Cheating (emotional or physical) and abuse (emotional or physical) are both grounds for immediate relationship termination. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I would like to say that I agree with what you just said.
I would also like to say that what you just said and what I just said are not in conflict.
...but I have this sneaky feeling that someone is going to quote me and twist what I say to "prove me wrong".

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 12:27 PM

Cheating (emotional or physical) and abuse (emotional or physical) are both grounds for immediate relationship termination. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.

I actually disagree. For you, any cheating and any abuse are grounds for immediate termination, but for me it's more "Grounds for immediate discussion of termination." As you've said, mistakes are made by everyone and the wonderful part about humanity is that we can grow and learn from our mistakes to become better people.

Now the second time you abuse or cheat, you haven't learned, you've shown you don't want to learn, and the relationship is over. See ya!

Syka

2010-04-20, 12:45 PM

I actually disagree. For you, any cheating and any abuse are grounds for immediate termination, but for me it's more "Grounds for immediate discussion of termination." As you've said, mistakes are made by everyone and the wonderful part about humanity is that we can grow and learn from our mistakes to become better people.

Now the second time you abuse or cheat, you haven't learned, you've shown you don't want to learn, and the relationship is over. See ya!

Yeah, as I said- it's just me. I've already seen what happens when an emotionally abusive relationship isn't exited after the first incident. With both myself and a few others.

Particularly with abuse more than cheating, the chance of something stopping after the first time is very, very rare. For instance, if Oz threw something at a wall, that's grounds for a discussion about possible relationship termination. If he ever shoved me in anything more than play, it's over. The first step has been taken and cannot be erased.

I mean, it CAN stop, but as I said- it's not really a chance I'm willing to take. When it's my physical or mental health at stake, it takes precedent in my mind (cheating involves physical health, at least when anything beyond petting occurs).

Skywalker, no harm. :) I was just referring to the fact you also mentioned it having a positive outcome. I know firsthand it can, but I'm not anymore a fan of it was my main point.

I think we just differ in seeing cheating as being excusable in some circumstances. For me there are understandable, but no excusable, situations. You see there are excusable situations. To each their own.

(Also, I make sure my partner is aware of what my 'cheating' boundaries are, the fact that it's a one shot deal if cheating occurs, and that no excuse would excuse it. :smallsmile: I also make sure I'm aware of their boundaries, etc. Communication and all that jazz.)

Pheehelm

2010-04-20, 01:13 PM

Superglucose -- the problem is that sort of thing almost always cycles. Abuser abuses, apologizes to victim, victim accepts, abuser maybe cleans up his act for a little while, abuser comes back around to abusing.

(Syka -- this sort of thing is why the bit about recognizing and handling abusive relationships was the first thing I thought of in regards to OP revisions. Also the boundaries thing, in light of your last paragraph.)

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 01:34 PM

Superglucose -- the problem is that sort of thing almost always cycles. Abuser abuses, apologizes to victim, victim accepts, abuser maybe cleans up his act for a little while, abuser comes back around to abusing.
Yes. This often happens, but to say it always happens is insanely inaccurate and I am a living testament. I was abused by someone who is now one of my closest friends, because that person recognized how they had screwed up and grew from the experience.

So at the point where "abuser comes back around to abusing" the next response isn't to start the cycle again, but for the victim to say, "Ok, bye."

Syka

2010-04-20, 01:41 PM

I'll revise the OP to include boundaries. Could someone link me to the warning signs of abuse deal?

I think what some people who haven't been in and/or near abusive relationships don't realize is that A. it really is a cycle and B. it's really hard to break out of. You really want to think the person you love will change and doesn't want to hurt you but it is so rare that anything actually changes. Abuse is not rational. Unless the person actively wants to change, nothing will change.

It doesn't help that many abusers blame their victim. I remember frequently being blamed for angering my ex when I had done, literally, nothing. But if it's YOU that is the problem, then THEY don't have to do anything different. Now, he never raised a hand to me, but if we had lived near each other it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually happened.

It's way more complicated than something that can be solved through a talk.

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 01:44 PM

I think what some people who haven't been in and/or near abusive relationships don't realize is that

You better not be implying what I think you're implying.

Syka

2010-04-20, 01:48 PM

You better not be implying what I think you're implying.

No, it was more general. I hear a lot of people say, "Why don't they just leave the relationship!" The only friends I've heard that from are those who've never been there. I've seen it on forums too.

It was more a general thing, though. :)

Oh, Froog, this can maybe help you as well. It's not as simple as recognizing he's bad for her. It's way more complicated and the best thing you can do is support her and let her know if she needs anything to come to you. That you are a safe haven.

I once saw a really good article about the psychology behind why women stay in abusive relationships. Part of it has to do with unpredictable periodic reinforcement- the times when the abuser acts like they care, etc. I'll see if I can't dig it up later.

(I'm also trying to be very careful to not single guys out here, because I've also known abusive women, both physically and emotionally. Neither is worse.)

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 02:06 PM

Ok, `yp. Yeah, leaving isn't easy, and it takes a lot of pushing and shoving and several months but I managed to get someone to do it. When I was saying that there's a "two strikes" I wasn't meaning to imply that leaving was easy, but that leaving should be done.

Back to myself, the self-centered bastard cries, I think the not hearing from B is killing me a bit inside. I'm worried she's pissed at me or something. DAMMIT! Oh well. It'll fade.

I am VERY glad that I reached out to her. What the hell man, this is why I never tell anyone I like them ever in the history of ever. The whole damn thing is getting stupid and I'm going to lose a good friend because she can't pull her head out of her ass long enough to trust me.

Malfunctioned

2010-04-20, 06:32 PM

I was going to give a bit more information on my problems but whilst reading back I couldn't really figure out what information was asked for, so I shall do this.

If there are any questions that people want to ask about my situation then please go ahead and I will try answer them fully. :smallbiggrin:

Hopefully that didn't sound too pretentious...

arguskos

2010-04-20, 06:33 PM

Yep. Still bitter towards myself and my last relationship. She showed up in my Buddies list for Gchat. I quit the program, after setting it to not show her. It's a bad sign when I cannot read her name without becoming emotional. :smallsigh:

Is there a doctor in the audience that can give me a lobotomy, please? I'd be reallllly grateful.

Froogleyboy

2010-04-20, 06:42 PM

He won't mess with her anymore. After calling a hotline, I took a course of action that I cannot discuss here (Roland has warned us already)

Malfunctioned

2010-04-20, 06:57 PM

He won't mess with her anymore. After calling a hotline, I took a course of action that I cannot discuss here (Roland has warned us already)
Whilst as a pretty devout (Not sure if that's the right word to use here, but oh well) pacifist I can't really condone any acts of violence (And judging from your post that is what happened, I'm not going to go further into it and please correct me if I'm wrong) I do have to say that I feel you did do the right thing, the sooner that guy is out of you and your friends life the better.

wxdruid

2010-04-20, 07:14 PM

I think what some people who haven't been in and/or near abusive relationships don't realize is that A. it really is a cycle and B. it's really hard to break out of. You really want to think the person you love will change and doesn't want to hurt you but it is so rare that anything actually changes. Abuse is not rational. Unless the person actively wants to change, nothing will change.

It doesn't help that many abusers blame their victim. I remember frequently being blamed for angering my ex when I had done, literally, nothing. But if it's YOU that is the problem, then THEY don't have to do anything different. Now, he never raised a hand to me, but if we had lived near each other it wouldn't surprise me if it eventually happened.

It's way more complicated than something that can be solved through a talk.Syka, I liked how you said that. It makes some things that occurred to me in the past make more sense and connect more dots. A simple way of saying something, but true.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-20, 07:36 PM

I'll revise the OP to include boundaries. Could someone link me to the warning signs of abuse deal?

Characteristics of men likely to be abusive. (http://www.broadcaster.org.uk/section1/scenarios/rape.html#abusive)

There's lot of information on that website that I hope none of you ever actually need. A lot of it came in really useful with my last gf, who has had a history of abusive boyfriends. (Except me, and her new boyfriend.) So I can vouch for the advice there.

This is the reference used. (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/profile.html)

Syka

2010-04-20, 09:11 PM

Syka, I liked how you said that. It makes some things that occurred to me in the past make more sense and connect more dots. A simple way of saying something, but true.

Glad I could help. It can be...interesting to try and deal with stuff when it's borderline. Emotional abuse is hard enough to pinpoint, but when it's not clear cut it makes you question yourself even more.

Thanks arkady, I've updated the OP.

skywalker

2010-04-20, 09:38 PM

Observation: "When we were out with our friends yesterday you said '*' to them."
Thought: "That seemed very disrespectful and really kind of vicious of you. I think I deserve to be treated better."
Feeling: "It upsets me, as I feel belittled and uncared about, and that makes me angry."
Desire: "I wish you'd think twice about what you say about me and my beliefs in public like that."

Careful with that technique, BTW, it's potent. While it's never failed me per se, every single time I've used it, the recipient burst into tears!

Seems fine to me. I wish everyone communicated this way.

I have no doubt that I'm biased in this, but I would consider serial cheating without a hint of remorse or learning from it (or even considering it a mistake) edging someone towards being a bad person.

I'd be inclined to agree. People can change, tho. That's hope, I guess.

Skywalker, it really is awesome you and/or your partner were able to get past it. But one example out of literally hundreds of people I've talked to doesn't change my opinion. I don't think it is amiss to say in well over 90% of relationships that remain intact after cheating has come to light are not the same.

I was just pointing out that I was offering new data, and it was in opposition to your "everyone" statement. That's all. I agree that most people are not us (meaning me and her).

Also, you're reasons are still flimsy excuses for something that is inexcusable. Lashing out at partner? That shows some major communication and relationship issues. Cheating will only further the problems.

As you cautioned us against asking "why don't they just leave?" in regards to an abusive relationship, I caution you the same way. People don't always apply this rational, logical analysis.

"Forgetting" a promise? Wth? Seriously....how do you "forget" that you have committed to someone?

You misunderstood. I was not saying that you forget your promise. Again, pretty hard to do sober. But you forget that the promise means anything to you. Think about it. We make promises every day. Some we intend to keep, some we don't, most probably. You (general you) can say you don't ever make a promise you don't intend to keep, but I really quite doubt it. Parents make promises to their children, and then they don't keep them. We live in a culture of broken promises. Eventually, a lot of us start seeing it as "not a big deal." Especially in the context of thinking "Jamie doesn't think about my feelings, otherwise she wouldn't have hurt me like I did," it is easy to think Jamie's feelings don't matter to you either. Yes, it would be healthier to stop and say "you know, I bet Jamie actually does care about my feelings, otherwise she wouldn't have said so. Maybe I should take hers into account." But people don't always do that.

Skywalker, no harm. :) I was just referring to the fact you also mentioned it having a positive outcome. I know firsthand it can, but I'm not anymore a fan of it was my main point.

I'm not a fan either. Just making lemonade out of lemons.

I think we just differ in seeing cheating as being excusable in some circumstances. For me there are understandable, but no excusable, situations. You see there are excusable situations. To each their own.

Not so much excusable as... forgivable, I guess? I think there is a subtle difference, at least. I suppose, since I see forgiveness as a complete wiping of the slate, that you could construe my viewing it as excusable. But I consider it different.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-20, 09:55 PM

As some of you may know, my housemate has Borderline Personality Disorder.

I've got a list of topics not to discuss with her, because she gets too upset.

It's really frustrating that in any discussion we have she'll always bring up - at length - a personal anecdote of a related major tragedy she's seen (perceived? - I'm not always convinced I get the true story) first hand. This is often important enough for her to cut me off midway through a word, and tends to be only tangentially related. For example: pointing out that schools can put pupils into sets, or streams (i.e. bright kids in one class, less bright in another, etc...).

I tried to make a point that teachers appreciate it when someone struggling asks for help - it shows them that the student cares enough to work hard to stay in the set - she tells me about how she felt like that in maths because they boys bullied her (girls aren't supposed to be good at maths, apparently) and that she lacked the confidence to ask for help, and how she could have done a maths degree but did an english degree instead which means she can't get a job and THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. (I also get a little snippy when interrupted like that regularly - which isn't good for someone with BPD but I really can't help it. Twelve Gods know I try.)

Other topics include: the NHS (are doctors incompetent and overpaid, or overworked and underpaid? Having worked in the NHS I think the latter, but having a much maligned illness which nobody knows how to treat means she sees the former far more often) and Mental Health Support (it exists, and it's not their fault you didn't seek out their help when you needed it).

It was fine living with her when there were six of us, but most of those moved on because they got jobs, or other reasons. Now it's just me and her and it gets so cooped up, sometimes.

Executor

2010-04-20, 10:42 PM

Well, if anyone remembers my situation from the last thread: Turns out, she doesn't like me. But she still wants to be friends.

Yeah, I'm not too happy about that.

Feeling pretty ****ty actually.

Serpentine

2010-04-20, 10:45 PM

On abuse, my aunt told me this anecdote about her ex-husband: He was an alcoholic, although only (I think) on weekends. From knock-off on Friday until Sunday night, he was pissed. While drunk, he was abusive, mean and nasty, and generally unpleasant. On Monday, he would be all apologetic with flowers and the like. Then next Friday would roll around, and it'd be the same thing all over again... For a long time, she believed that the Monday-him was the "real" him, and the weekend-him was someone else, not really him. She finally decided to leave him when she realised that the weekend-him was who he really was, that he was never truly going to stop doing it, and the apologetic Monday-him was just an act.
I think that may be part of the problem in abusive relationships: the victim takes the apologetic post-abuse as the real deal, and the abusiveness as "not really him/her", just something that happens, "something she/he brings upon her/himself".

Coidzor

2010-04-20, 10:45 PM

Arkady: I don't know if there's really any advice that can be given unless there's someone around here that has experience with dealing with those who are decidedly not rational actors rather than the usual rational actors with quirks.

:/

In terms of something real that you can do, it seems like your options are limited to, you can either try to get more housemates in there to make up for those who've gone on or you can try to leave yourself.

Executor: At least you know now and can start moving on. Never fun though.

Superglucose

2010-04-20, 11:37 PM

I want to cry but I can't get a hold of the friend who makes everything better.

:smallsigh:

I guess I better fix this problem on my own.

Pheehelm

2010-04-20, 11:47 PM

Syka --
Currently attempting to see if there are a set of guidelines regarding women abusers.
Here's a more gender-neutral piece on warning signs (http://www.hiddenhurt.co.uk/Abuser/signs.htm).
Emotional abuse is hard enough to pinpoint, but when it's not clear cut it makes you question yourself even more.I figured this website (http://www.eqi.org/index.htm) was a bit too sprawling to suggest linking in the OP, but here's their main page on emotional abuse (http://www.eqi.org/eabuse1.htm) if you can find anything to put up there.

(EDIT: By the way, recognition is just the first step. I also think there should be something there on what people should do when they or someone they care about is in an abusive relationship. BSW linked this (http://www.ndvh.org/) earlier, and it looks pretty good to me.)

Serp --
I think that may be part of the problem in abusive relationships: the victim takes the apologetic post-abuse as the real deal, and the abusiveness as "not really him/her", just something that happens, "something she/he brings upon her/himself". Agreed. I've seen this pattern in other personal accounts.

arkady -- I found this (http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/06/walking-on-eggshells-dealing-with.html), complete with a link to a book on the subject (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157224108X) (several, actually, if you note the "customers who bought this item also bought" section), and this (http://www.helium.com/items/348986-how-to-deal-with-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder). Any of them helpful?

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 12:01 AM

skywalker

2010-04-21, 01:17 AM

Venting time:

Dear B,

Did you remember earlier today when we were talking and you didn't say anything for a second, and I seemed to disappear for ten minutes? That was because I was taking a shower, not because I was ignoring you. It might have seemed a bit odd to you, since previously the only time we had such lengthy breaks in our conversations were when you went to go eat dinner without telling me, or even when you had gone to sleep without warning! I would also like to call attention to the fact that you said you would be ready to discuss this at 10:00 pm, and it is now 10:15. So if you will kindly notice, I AM NOT FREAKING OUT YELLING AT YOU OR ANY OF THE ABOVE.

Instead I am calmly finding an outlet for my frustrations which do not involve accusing you of anything, as I'm sure you're just busy.

With much love,

Superglucose

Oh, and p.s.,

When you say "Do you want to come over if Katie comes over?" and I say "Katie's going to be there? Sweet! I'll see you in thirty minutes!" Don't expect that I'm coming over because I want to talk about our friendship or a fight we just had. I want to come over so I can see katie. That's why you told me she was coming, and that's why I said I was excited to come. Being super jealous afterwords is pretty failboat and it's partly why you have an inconspicuous nickname.
nubgirl. But seriously she needs to stop asking me if she can cast CLW and move in the same turn.

EDIT:
Protip for you ladies out there with boyfriends or friends or even cats. Whenever someone asks you to tell him (or her) what you feel, "I already told you and I don't want to tell you again" is a dumb answer.

Dude, you have to stop being a part of this. Was it nice of her to just leave you on the phone? No. Does that make it right for you to leave her hanging on the phone? No. We just discussed the "two wrongs don't make a right" thing.

The girl is is mixed up. And you seem to be as well. What do you want from her? Are you getting it? If not, how can you go about getting it? There is a point here where someone has to start being active instead of reactive. I nominate you. While she isn't being an incredibly easy human to get along with, your playing dumb isn't helping things. Of course she doesn't want to be used by you to see Katie. If you want to see Katie, and don't want to see her, just go see Katie. But you implied that you wanted to see both of them, at the very least.

Oh, and cats will never, ever ask you how you feel.

Umael

2010-04-21, 10:16 AM

Oh, and cats will never, ever ask you how you feel.

Truer words have never been said.

Capt Spanner

2010-04-21, 10:35 AM

arkady -- I found this (http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2006/06/walking-on-eggshells-dealing-with.html), complete with a link to a book on the subject (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/157224108X) (several, actually, if you note the "customers who bought this item also bought" section), and this (http://www.helium.com/items/348986-how-to-deal-with-people-with-borderline-personality-disorder). Any of them helpful?

Many thanks. I already have the book. I've been living with my housemate for two years now, and known her longer. By the time I had the book I'd lived with her for a year and found most of it out first hand. Still: the book is almost certainly a better way of finding out.

Oh, and cats will never, ever ask you how you feel.

Sigg'd

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 11:04 AM

Dude, you have to stop being a part of this. Was it nice of her to just leave you on the phone? No. Does that make it right for you to leave her hanging on the phone? No. We just discussed the "two wrongs don't make a right" thing.
Totally not what I was doing.

The girl is is mixed up. And you seem to be as well. What do you want from her? Are you getting it? If not, how can you go about getting it? There is a point here where someone has to start being active instead of reactive. I nominate you. While she isn't being an incredibly easy human to get along with, your playing dumb isn't helping things.
To answer your questions, her, no, I don't know, but probably just wait and let her finish her stuff.

Of course she doesn't want to be used by you to see Katie. If you want to see Katie, and don't want to see her, just go see Katie. But you implied that you wanted to see both of them, at the very least.
It turns out what she wanted to do was have a several hour talk, and not play settlers of catan. Something I totally didn't pick up on considering she asked me to come over to play a game.

Malfunctioned

2010-04-21, 02:55 PM

I'm not sure why but I'd thought I'd post a little update, and I do mean little. :smalltongue:

So today I was back at college and saw both M and J, nothing much happened really, I talked with M a bit, there was possibly a very small bit of flirting but then again I'm about as oblivious as a deaf man at a silent rave. Seriously, the person I've had to previously rely on to tell me when girls are interested could be called Cuckoo-Cloud Lander on her sane days. Anyway, I spoke J a bit as well, did a little gaming and everything seemed okay really.

Though there was a small thing though, another mutual friend of all three of us is having a party, I was planning on telling M how I felt there, however whilst me, M and that other friend were talking about it J overheard. Now he had already said that he couldn't make it to the party, something I was quite glad of since that would mean that if M didn't feel the same way I wouldn't have to deal with him knowing that I had told her, but today he said that he could make it to the party now. Now my opinion may be, and I completely understand how it could not be though that's just how my paranoid mind works, that he suspects what I may of had planned and he doesn't really want that to happen.

Then again, I may be jumping to conclusions. There was another interesting thing that the other friend, hereby referred to as C, said. I asked her whether she knew if M felt that same way her reply was something along this lines of "I'm not going to answer that, you need some time to be single and" This part is word-for-word "....if you ask me again then I'm going to slap both of you."

The only part I'm suspect about is where she said 'both' instead of just 'you'. Then again conclusion jumping is possible.

Sooo....Any advice? Comments?

Quincunx

2010-04-21, 03:48 PM

Well.

So the girl I've been talking about here for a long time? Yeah I went to her house (as I said) and we ended up playing Settlers of Catan. Eh, I'll spoil this for length. . .

If only that could be done with actual Settlers games as well. . .:smalltongue:

Executor

2010-04-21, 05:40 PM

Anyone know an easy way to just cut a woman out of your life entirely? And if that woman already has dozens of other guy friends, do you think she'd even notice? Because, really, that's all I want to do about my situation right now, just cut all contact and move on.

Dust

2010-04-21, 06:32 PM

You have an avatar of Rayne and are having difficulty cutting a woman out of your life?

Innuendo-for-humor aside, this is the easiest thing in the world. The trick is to not be dramatic about it, but to be a straight shooter. And if you want them to notice, say it to their face - the more casual you seem at the time, the more it ends up frustrating them.

I know I sound like a royal heel currently, but hey, that's the advice Executor is asking for. And having done this twice in the last few months, I feel for the guy.

There's no simpler or easier method than simply being staggeringly blunt and honest. "Look, Katie. There's no easy way to say this, but frankly, I think you're crazy and want nothing more to do with you. Good luck with....everything." and wak away.

And then find something to do for the next three hours, even if it means having something planned in advance, like hitting a movie or playing that new video game. When you're done distracting yourself, you'll hardly be giving them a second thought and feel good about your honesty.

Executor

2010-04-21, 07:38 PM

Syka

2010-04-21, 07:56 PM

Her name is Devon, but the Katie example worked, hehe.

Her friend Sarah told that cutting her out of my life would hurt her so bad. After how she hurt me, I kinda don't care. When I talked to Devon about the still being friends thing, she acted all hurt and said that "Just because I don't like you the way you like me doesn't mean I still don't think you're a great friend!". But, she has a surplus of guy friends exactly like me, I'm sure she wouldn't miss me much after about a week or so.

Not necessarily true. I have a load of male friends, and I would still miss one if they left the group.

Also, you managed to come off a little...I dunno, like women think all their guy friends are the same and replaceable. They aren't, or at least no more than female friends are.

Also also, if it is healthier for YOU to cut her out of your life, than do it. I just stopped contacting my ex and when he contacted me (5 months later...) I told him flat out I just didn't want to talk to him anymore. It killed me, but it was better for me- without a doubt. I also know it hurt him like hell, but as I said...it had to be done for my sanity.

And sometimes, YOU have to be first in YOUR life. (Am currently attempting to convince a friend of mine this about a douchebad...it's a complicated situation.)

In other news, Oz told me in a roundabout way he got me flowers last night. It turned out it wasn't flowers...It was the entire plant. :smalleek:

Anyone know how to take care of an orchid? I think it's a Lighting Orchid or some such but...I'm clueless. I mean, I've managed to keep Saffron alive for a year so a plant should be easy...(not).

On the upside, it's really pretty and I definitely prefer it to any sort of cut flower since...ya know...this one has a chance at long term survival.

Dust

2010-04-21, 08:02 PM

If she was a jerk to you during the breakup, then fine. Sarah's random advice aside, there's no reason you should care one whit about the woman anymore.

But if she ended the relationship as nicely as possible, then you need to really re-examine why you want to cut this woman out of your life. Just because she hurt you and you can't take it? Perhaps as some sort of vengeance? Both of those reasons suck, and angsty, bitter reasons like those are incredibly unattractive.

I guess what it probably comes down to is that you're still getting over the breakup - hey man, that's fine. Most of us have been in that situation. (Hell, some of us never leave that state of mind! :smallbiggrin:) But intentionally being a jerk or selling yourself short with statements like "she has another dozen guys who are exactly like me" doesn't solve/help anything.

Best I can do is give you an e-guyhug (you know. Hard flexed arm around the neck, short and followed by a pat on the back) and buy you a virtual pint. It sucks. It does. But don't make any rash decisions you might regret later.

cycoris

2010-04-21, 08:04 PM

Anyone know how to take care of an orchid? I think it's a Lighting Orchid or some such but...I'm clueless. I mean, I've managed to keep Saffron alive for a year so a plant should be easy...(not).

I have an orchid that I really, really hate, but I've managed to keep her alive by feeding her a cube or two of ice a couple times a week, and putting her in a medium-ish sunny spot. :smallyuk:

Executor

2010-04-21, 08:09 PM

I do know what you're saying, Syka, but I still do care about her, despite how bitchy she sometimes got during our breaking up process (at one point telling me outright that she was too good for me, but let's not discuss that), and I don't want to hurt her. At the same time, I'm coming across as a huge ******* as I continue to talk to her, since I'm understandably in more than a bit of a bad mood when I talk to her, and I think it would be better to just make a clean break. She, however, disagrees. I don't know what to do, I'm going to think about it.

Syka

2010-04-21, 08:10 PM

I have an orchid that I really, really hate, but I've managed to keep her alive by feeding her a cube or two of ice a couple times a week, and putting her in a medium-ish sunny spot. :smallyuk:

Why the orchid hate? They are so pretty...

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs480.snc3/26307_514508391798_289700721_549682_1850784_n.jpg

Also...if that's all it takes, I may be in luck then. I was reading about using rainwater, and fertilizer, and a special sort of moss or bark substrate and going "oh man...this present is going to COST me. :smalleek:"

But it's purty! :smallbiggrin:

Dust

2010-04-21, 08:11 PM

In other news, Oz told me in a roundabout way he got me flowers last night. It turned out it wasn't flowers...It was the entire plant. :smalleek:

Anyone know how to take care of an orchid? I think it's a Lighting Orchid or some such but...I'm clueless.
That's adorable. And I can help you here.

From a purely male point of view, Orchids are one of the nicer cut flowers you can give a woman. Primarily because they're expensive - if you don't know much about flowers, and all you know is that 'she likes them!' it really says something that a guy would look at the tiger lillies, the roses, and the orchid, and choose the most expensive one - especially when that's something she doesn't know.

You've got a keeper there.

That said, they can be a royal pain to keep because you HAVE to know what type you have. Because they come from varying levels of humidity, climate-wise, the care is pretty different for each one. And giving them more water than they need is worse than too little.

Go to this site (http://www.orchidweb.com/orchids_main.aspx)and browse the pictures until you find your plant, and follow the care instructions laid out there. I used to send flowers cross-country all the time and trust that site's info.

Dust

2010-04-21, 08:14 PM

Also...if that's all it takes, I may be in luck then. I was reading about using rainwater, and fertilizer, and a special sort of moss or bark substrate and going "oh man...this present is going to COST me.
His plant is probably struggling pretty badly. :smallamused: Orchids are a royal pain.

Based on your picture (if that IS your plant), I'm fairly sure that's a 'Harlequin' orchid. And you're in luck, 'cause they're easy to care for. Natural sunlight, good room humidity, no fertilizer needed, don't overwater. Bam.
Try these steps:
http://www.orchidweb.com/OrchidOfWeek.aspx?ID=250

Syka

2010-04-21, 08:18 PM

I'm actually not a fan of cut flowers. They die, and this I don't like. That's why I was excited to see it's the whole plant. Terrified of killing it, but excited. :smallcool: He knows me well.

I'll probably try to work out what nursery it's from and give them a call about it.

(As a side note, this is the first time I've ever gotten flowers well...ever from a romantic partner. I don't really count the single roses the last guy I dated gave me since I know where they came from (the rose bucket at Walgreens...where he worked...both times on a night he'd worked lol). The situation where he got it was an odd one, and no money was involved, but it was still sweet he thought of giving it to me over his mom, who has a green thumb. :smallsmile:)

ETA: That is the plant. I am impressed with your orchid knowledge, that is a great help.

Coidzor

2010-04-21, 08:43 PM

^: For you, Syka. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1846) :smallwink:

Oh, and cats will never, ever ask you how you feel.

Truer words have never been said.

They will, however, eat you.

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 09:06 PM

I'm actually not a fan of cut flowers. They die, and this I don't like.
I had a girlfriend and at the start of her second semester of college I gave her a single red rose. I promised her she would get 1 red rose for each semester we were together at the beginning of each semester. It died, predictably, but she took really good care of it and even when it was dead and drying it maintained its color and shape.

The next semester she got 1 red rose and 1 blue rose. Then a week before my birthday she dumped me (predictably)

Syka

2010-04-21, 09:10 PM

Super, I know a lot of girls who love getting flowers. It's just not really my thing. Some girls I work with were talking about getting flowers from their boyfriends and how as the relationship gets longer the less they get. They were shocked Oz had never given me any. :smallwink:

Plus, if I can keep it alive for a year plus it'll be able to make the trek up to NYC with us and we'll having something alive in our apartment other than us and the demonic hamster.

I was going to say something about preferring a potato (it's a joke) but then I realized I'm also the girl who honest to God would want to be proposed to using a Ring Pop so...yeah. Take my preferences with a grain of salt. :smallsmile:

Coid, pretty much what I was thinking. ;)

Dust

2010-04-21, 09:15 PM

I was going to say something about preferring a potato (it's a joke) but then I realized I'm also the girl who honest to God would want to be proposed to using a Ring Pop so...yeah. Take my preferences with a grain of salt.
>> there are so many ways to enjoy a potato! you can even make a battery with it!
>> and that's like saying "i have many ways in which I show my love for you"

Listen, if you and your boyfriend don't work out, here's my number.... :smallbiggrin:

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 09:22 PM

Super, I know a lot of girls who love getting flowers. It's just not really my thing.
Oh you just reminded me of that story :smallwink: In fact, that same gf gave me a cactus which I ended up writing a poem about. I still wince when I read it.

So um... what's the best way to be friends with a girl, signal that a) you're interested and b) respect that she's taken, but for the love of god don't think I'm not interested, and c) continue hanging out with her because of how awesome she is?

It should really be as simple as, "If you break up with your boyfriend give me a call because you're hot. Now, who wants to play another round of Magic?"

Force

2010-04-21, 09:23 PM

From a purely male point of view, Orchids are one of the nicer cut flowers you can give a woman. Primarily because they're expensive - if you don't know much about flowers, and all you know is that 'she likes them!' it really says something that a guy would look at the tiger lillies, the roses, and the orchid, and choose the most expensive one - especially when that's something she doesn't know.

*decloaks*

I find this amusing, considering that my father buys my mother a bunch (and by a bunch I mean 10+) of orchids every year for Valentine's day. Before you wonder why the heck I'm bringing this up, it's because those orchids where they are right now cost about... oh... a dollar? :smallbiggrin: Probably because orchids over there are mourning flowers. Thai people always express sympathy and ask whom we've lost when they visit during that week.

Yet, over here in the States, an orchid is... ZOMG, TEH NICE CUT FLOWER! Something you get for your girlfriend to demonstrate affection.

I love cultural differences sometimes, I really do.

*recloaks*

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 09:30 PM

Tiger lillies are awesome because of how powerful a message they carry. They are my flower-of-choice for giving to a new girlfriend. EDIT: For those of you who don't know, Tiger Lillies carry the sentiment, "I dare you to love me." I love how forceful and straight forward that is. It's got so much confidence and power behind it that I can't help but smile at it. It skips past "I love you" while communicating the sentiment at the same time.

Kind of like, "I dare you to go on one date with me" as in, "Once you do you will date no one else because you will be so hopelessly smitten with me." "I dare you to love me" as in "Once you do you'll never turn to any other man." <--- Hopeless romantic.

Orchids... I do not like cutting orchids. If I'm getting a girl an orchid I'll probably get her a plant because they're not that big.

Roses on the other hand... I don't want to hand over a bush so that's the cut flower of choice for after the tiger lillies.

Of course by the time that comes around I'll have polled the audience for their favorite flower.

Syka

2010-04-21, 09:32 PM

Super I would...not let her know you are interested, in all honesty. Even though YOU don't mean it as "I want you now", it comes across as trying to interfere with the relationship. If you must tell her, say what you said here. You are interested and if she is ever single again you hope she'll remember that, but you have no plans to do anything beyond informing her this one time about your affections.

Then never ever EVER bring it up again.

Force, that is really interesting. The meanings I just found online said it signifies delicate beauty or some such. The plant was originally 18USD. There are two stems from the based with about...5? flowers to each stem. All the prices I've been finding online are 50USD+.

I so need to go to Thailand now...:smallwink:

ETA: Oh, and I like tulips. I saw them for the first time at work a few weeks back around easter and they are so lovely.

Dust

2010-04-21, 09:37 PM

So um... what's the best way to be friends with a girl, signal that a) you're interested and b) respect that she's taken, but for the love of god don't think I'm not interested, and c) continue hanging out with her because of how awesome she is?

Listen, if you and your boyfriend don't work out, here's my number.... :smallbiggrin:

Okay, no. Don't do that. I was kidding. It was a joke.

Syka's right. Don't interfere, don't attempt to make your feelings known if you can help it. Even insinuating that you're waiting in the wings can seem threatening.

Just, you know - be a nice guy. Then, if she and her boyfriend do break up for whatever reason, she already knows enough about you to make an informed decision whether or not you two are compatible, and you can go from there.

As for flowers? I used to think it was sweet to find out what sort of gifts a girl had recieved from her previous boyfriends and admirers. Often, I found them lamenting they had never been given chocolates and/or roses. So I'd show up to the first date with both of those things, and brush it off as casually as possible and stating that every girl deserves sort of treatment.
I'm not sure if I'd still advise this method, but it worked wonderfully at the time.

When I met The Girl™ I sent her Gardenias (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/White_Gardenia_flower.jpg/760px-White_Gardenia_flower.jpg) almost exclusively, as well as orchids when I was hurting for cash.

Force

2010-04-21, 09:40 PM

Force, that is really interesting. The meanings I just found online said it signifies delicate beauty or some such. The plant was originally 18USD. There are two stems from the based with about...5? flowers to each stem. All the prices I've been finding online are 50USD+.

I so need to go to Thailand now...:smallwink:

Darn you, Syka, you're tempting me out of happy cloaking-shadows into the light of RWA, where the Force is flustered because he has no romantic relationships to ask about. Ah well. :D

Thailand's a pretty neat place, if you're touristing. Current political situation makes things a bit annoying for tourists (not dangerous per say, just hard to get to a lot of the tourist spots) but if you have a sense of adventure and a good head on your shoulders the country's cheap and fun. Though I doubt you'll ever take me up on it, let me know if you ever go and I can issue recommendations/places to avoid.

**hides back in the shadows again**

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 09:45 PM

Syka's right. Don't interfere, don't attempt to make your feelings known if you can help it. Even insinuating that you're waiting in the wings can seem threatening.

That sucks. I wish I could singlehandedly change culture so that it was acceptable.

Syka

2010-04-21, 09:55 PM

That sucks. I wish I could singlehandedly change culture so that it was acceptable.

It's not just a culture thing I don't think. It's a "why are you hitting on me while I'm in a relationship don't you respect it?" thing. As I said, you might not think it's pressuring, but it is kind of. It ends up coming across as if you WANT them to break up, and unless there is good reason, it's kinda rude to do that.

Heck, flirting is even usually fine. It's when you come out and say "Hey, if you guys break up...keep me in mind." that starts moving into weird territory. (This also occurs if you (general you) contact the person more frequently than normal, or at odd hours, etc.)

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 09:59 PM

xPANCAKEx

2010-04-21, 10:04 PM

^: For you, Syka. (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1846) :smallwink:

They will, however, eat you.

especially if they happen to be snuggles

yarn for the yarn throne!

golentan

2010-04-21, 10:31 PM

It is entirely a cultural thing. There doesn't have to be anything about "I know you're in a relationship but I think you're hot and would be willing to date you" that doesn't respect the relationship, but there is. Thus, it is a cultural thing.

EDIT: Cultural things aren't necessarily bad. They just are based in the culture they're around, and they exist for reasons, some are good reasons and some are bad reasons. Most reasons hover somewhere between those two extremes. I understand that it's an unacceptable thing to say, I just am saying that it doesn't have to be unacceptable and I wish it wasn't unacceptable.

Vehement disagreement. It isn't a "Cultural Thing" it's a "Nature of the Beast Thing." The vast majority of people are jealous: they do not like a potential partner to have other partners. So, any time one party of a relationship is propositioned, it will be read through the eyes of jealousy and/or with the assumption of jealousy on the part of the proposer.

You are, in effect, propositioning the other party (even if it's a delayed event). You are acknowledging their relationship, and making comments about it ending while doing this propositioning. Even if both parties were raised by wolves, the obvious inference is that you have ulterior motives when it comes to that relationship whether you acknowledge it or not, and are 1) trying to undermine it with your confession, or 2) may have tried or will try to undermine it in the future, and 3) this may be the reason for you being there as a "good friend," especially when relationship matters come up.

Welcome to the world. We have complex consequences. And t-shirts.

Nano

2010-04-21, 10:39 PM

The only person I could actually talk to about this is my problem, so... you guys, I guess.

I don't know if I'll manage to properly arrange my thoughts but that's not really important right now. I don't think I need advice, and please don't send me any PMs, if you feel so inclined. I'm not equipped to handle condolences.

I've been in love with somebody. I don't see that ever changing. We met on the site here a year and then some ago, maybe closer to two. About halfway between now and then is when I imagine I started feeling that way, though I can't give you a real specific time of when.

She's helped me through tons of bad situations, pretty much all of them originating from my ****ed up psyche.

She's ridiculously gorgeous. Funny as hell. Awesome person in general.

I flew up to visit her Friday last week. Stayed with her for four nights, had a complete blast even if there were a couple rough spots.

Just now we were talking about the trip some. Specifically, that she'd only been indulging my feelings for her out of guilt -- she has no feelings for me.

At one point she had said that if I took up residence in the area she'd date me. I took this the wrong way -- she meant going on dates, I thought relationship. My hopes for a relationship had been slowly recovering after an incident last Christmas or thereabouts when I suffered from a bit of a breakdown, and it kind of boosted those feelings.

Now I feel like she's not telling me anything I already know. "I would go on dates with you. I doubt there'd be a relationship." She mentioned that she had been confused because she finds (found?) me attractive. But she has no feelings for me.

I'm starting to repeat myself, so.

Though she'd hate to hear me say it, she's been the most important person in my life for a while. She's been the kick in my ass I've needed every so often (all the time) and she's been a motive for my ambitions to leave this ****hole and join her up there.

Now... my response to all this was to basically go sit in my room for a few minutes in the dark and silent. Why do I get extremely polite when I'm upset, by the way?

My body doesn't seem to know how to react to this. The last time I shed an honest tear was... well, never in recent memory. I feel like I should. The only response my body's had was getting incredibly weak. I've had the feeling I need to throw up, only I can't manage to do it.

It feels like so much of me has been ripped away right now. My feelings for this person won't ever go away, I don't think, and I have no intention of losing her as a friend. So... I know I need to move on, at some point. I understand that. But over the years my... I don't know how to describe it. Desynchronization, but with myself. Depersonalization. She's the one who introduced me to that term.

Anyways, my depersonalization since discovering my transsexuality has carried over into every other aspect of my life, and, while naturally it's not exactly beneficial, it's left me very self-aware.

It's because of that that I can say, with more or less an objective point of view, that I don't think I will. Maybe in a few years. I don't know. But moving on seems to be outside my range of capabilities.

I just needed to talk. If you have actual advice, though I strongly doubt that I'll follow any of it if you do (due to lack of ability or otherwise) please say so. Hold the hugs and such if any were coming. I don't need them and couldn't handle them.

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 10:40 PM

^^

Time is pretty much the only thing that'll calm that firestorm. You'll love and care again.

Vehement disagreement. It isn't a "Cultural Thing" it's a "Nature of the Beast Thing." The vast majority of people are jealous: they do not like a potential partner to have other partners. So, any time one party of a relationship is propositioned, it will be read through the eyes of jealousy and/or with the assumption of jealousy on the part of the proposer.
Cite your source that "nature of the beast is monogamy" is not a cultural value.

Syka

2010-04-21, 10:45 PM

Cite your source that "nature of the beast is monogamy" is not a cultural value.

He's not saying monogamy is the nature of the beast but that jealousy is. I can't get sources off hand, but it's pretty cross-cultural (with a few exceptions) that when ones partner is showing affection/being shown affection by someone else this is a Bad Thing.

On an evolutionary level you are either risking losing a provider for your offspring, or your certainty that the offspring is yours rather than that dudes over there.

It's just one of those things.

And even in societies where polygamy (both polygyny and polyandry) is accepted...I recall seeing something that showed the majority of people still had generally monogamous relationships.

Serpentine

2010-04-21, 10:46 PM

He didn't say "the nature of the beast is monogamy", he said "the nature of the beast is jealousy". In any case, the vast majority of people probably are monogamous, and I think unless you consider "every value and emotion anyone ever has" to be "cultural", feelings of jealousy and of one's relationship being threatened are (generally/on the whole) not.

Superglucose

2010-04-21, 10:49 PM

None of what you are saying makes any sense and I think we are talking about two different things so I'll let it go. Especially since it sounds to me like you're saying that cultural values don't influence our reactions to what people say or do which I think is absurd.

Serpentine

2010-04-21, 10:53 PM

No, we're not. We're just saying that this, at the very least, is not only a cultural thing. In fact, chances are it's far more founded on biology.
More specifically, you were misrepresenting/misunderstanding what he was saying in your assertion that he was claiming that "the nature of the beast is monogamy" - as we said, he was not.

Syka

2010-04-21, 10:53 PM

Of course cultural values effect it in SOME way.

What we're saying is that pretty much regardless of culture, jealousy exists when one's partner is being propositioned. It often is assumed that the propositioner is ALSO jealous (of the person's partner). You will be hard pressed to find a culture where approaching someone's partner, telling them you want them, but will wait until the partner is no longer in the picture, is generally accepted.

You brought monogamy in to the picture, we were discussing jealousy.

Now...(and I mean this in a non-condescending manner) is there anything about that which does not make sense?

Serpentine

2010-04-21, 10:56 PM

Actually regarding the original question: I would suggest that if she brings it up (say, "pfft, noone's ever interested in me"), you could probably mention it then without concern, though avoid making a big deal out of it.

skywalker

2010-04-21, 11:24 PM

(As a side note, this is the first time I've ever gotten flowers well...ever from a romantic partner. I don't really count the single roses the last guy I dated gave me since I know where they came from (the rose bucket at Walgreens...where he worked...both times on a night he'd worked lol). The situation where he got it was an odd one, and no money was involved, but it was still sweet he thought of giving it to me over his mom, who has a green thumb. :smallsmile:)

My mom kills plants. Everything. She has the opposite of a green thumb. So one year for their anniversary, my dad got her a plant you can't kill. Literally, that's what it's known for. Sure, it's just basically a massive pile of stem and leaves in a pot, but that thing has continued to grow, and hasn't yet died. I'm impressed. I suppose the message is "even if you were as terrible a wife as you are a gardener, our love still wouldn't die." Or something. I'm not great at interpreting flowers. :smalltongue:

Super, I know a lot of girls who love getting flowers. It's just not really my thing. Some girls I work with were talking about getting flowers from their boyfriends and how as the relationship gets longer the less they get. They were shocked Oz had never given me any. :smallwink:

I never buy girlfriends flowers. They die, they're expensive, they die, they make me sneeze, and they die.

If you're going to get flowers from me, it's going to be a while after we're dating. I'm more inclined to give jewelery, honestly. At least it lasts.

golentan

2010-04-21, 11:42 PM

Cite your source that "nature of the beast is monogamy" is not a cultural value.

I cannot cite a source on an opinion I've never held. I believe that our lovely Vulpine and Vipermorph have adequately described my intent while I was away*, so...

I will say this: Having no real concept of jealousy myself I know it is a far more important factor in love and lust than almost anyone will let on. I practice extreme monogamy when in a pair bond not because it is in my nature, but because it is against my nature and so I don't have anywhere near as good a sense of where the boundaries lie.

Envy I do, jealousy not so much. *shrugs* Go figure.

*thank you ladies...

Amiel

2010-04-22, 08:18 AM

The arm stroke is a specific move and should not be generalized too much. You can't lump it in with brushing against (very flirty) or the muscle trace ("do me now"). It's most commonly seen within a relationship - but outside of a relationship I've only ever seen it used to express pity, which occasionally leads somewhere but mostly does not.

This really is no different to what I wrote; the interest is purely physical (at this stage, although there is definite interest), depending on the context it can either be intimate (implied by my latter statement) or like you say, pity and its conclusive in/action (yes, pity is also a sign of interest). What it does not mean is that a relationship will always develop out of it (never was this stated nor implications to the effect made; with usage being "perhaps" rather than a definitive blanket statement); there is interest and of a physical nature, that is all.

Syka

2010-04-22, 08:24 AM

I cannot cite a source on an opinion I've never held. I believe that our lovely Vulpine and Vipermorph have adequately described my intent while I was away*, so...

I will say this: Having no real concept of jealousy myself I know it is a far more important factor in love and lust than almost anyone will let on. I practice extreme monogamy when in a pair bond not because it is in my nature, but because it is against my nature and so I don't have anywhere near as good a sense of where the boundaries lie.

Envy I do, jealousy not so much. *shrugs* Go figure.

*thank you ladies...

And this is exactly why communication is important. :) Everyone has different boundaries and feelings on monogamy and such, and unless there is an overt discussion about it...it can lead to some sticky situations.

I think it's sweet, in a way, that you do that for your partners, though.

Skywalker, yeah...I think that's me with plants. I haven't tried in a while, though, so I could be wrong and have developed a green thumb, lol. Oz isn't a flower guy for the same reason I don't like flowers. He doesn't do jewelry either ('cause he's, well, broke). He does tons of other sweet things for me, though. :smallsmile:

Amiel

2010-04-22, 08:27 AM

Also, for those down and depressed about not finding "that special someone," remember that the world is beyond extraordinary, that fate exists and is a very real tangible thing, and that people are waiting for you; it's just a matter of initiative, finding them and fanning the blossoms of romance.

xPANCAKEx

2010-04-22, 10:40 AM

on monogamy (brain spill time)

Even if monogamy is/was instinctual on any level (an incredibly rare trait in the animal kingdom - and if we are talking biology then lets not forget that people are essentially well evolved animals), humanity also has logic and intellect, so if you know you're not feeling ready to be tied down to just the one person, don't. Simple as that.

You may find a lot of prospective partners put off by the idea of you continuing to see other people. You may find they're ok with it as long as you don't also date selected people (friends or family spring to mind). You just have to see whether their boundries and values are currently compatible with your own. If not, apply that logic and accept that "this relationship wouldn't work right now" - who knows, you may feel different in a few months/years time and they may still be open to the idea of a relationship then, but for the sake of sweet zombie jebus, don't start a relationship with a monogamous person if you're polygamous (or vice versa) unless they can truely handle it without jealousy or resentment as it will only end in tears. Resentment is never a healthy thing to start any relationship with.

on "finding that someone"

defo +1 what Amiel just said.

Unless you're a fatalist, then most of you won't believe in soul mates, and only "one person out there for everyone". Theres lots of people out there. Just get out and meet them, and eventually someone may make you feel special. And usually in a life time it will be a lot more than just one person.

Syka

2010-04-22, 10:47 AM

I'm a firm believer in the "Soul Mate Pool". It's like a pool of candidates. All of them would be equally compatible with you, probably in different ways, but you'd be happy with them (assuming other things held equal). A lot of it is who gets there first. :smallwink:

Seriously...if you'd told me 3 years ago now that I'd be with Z's roommate and be utterly in love with him, I'd've laughed you out of the room. We got along, and I even had a crush on him, but it wasn't something I'd actively thought would happen. I also wasn't in a place where something like how our relationship is would be good for me.

6 months later...I was in the right place. I've also met people since we've been dating that I got on very well with. If I was single, it very well could result in a happy relationship, but I'm not so it doesn't.

This actually kind of hits both of the breakfast cake's points. He's seriously right in that if you don't/do want monogamy, you've GOT to tell your perspective partner. If you are polyamorous but in a monogamous relationship, it will still be cheating to hook up with someone else. If you are monogamous in a poly/open relationship, it is not cheating for them to hook up with someone else (well, as long as they are within the set boundaries).

But this all requires communication and informed consent. There is nothing wrong with either way of doing things, you just need to find someone who does them the same way, like most things in relationships. (Like, interfaith relationships are generally more difficult than same faith relationships.)

Pyrian

2010-04-22, 10:50 AM

This really is no different to what I wrote...There's a significant difference between your answer - "always" grudgingly corrected to be less absolute - and my answer, "probably not". Citing the fact that neither answer is strictly speaking absolute is, to an empiricist like me, almost a tautology; of course we can't be sure. That doesn't make the answers equivalent.

There doesn't have to be anything about "I know you're in a relationship but I think you're hot and would be willing to date you" that doesn't respect the relationship, but there is.You're probably sick of this discussion by now, but I feel compelled to attack this from a second angle. The posts so far have been about the assumption of monogamy, but that's essentially inherent in the sentiment (thus the "but" part), so it really doesn't matter where the monogamy is coming from. Where I think you're going off the rails is in the notion that you seem to think you can express a preference without pressuring the person you're expressing that preference to (given that they have power over you in that regard). To any but the most total sociopaths (and as there is no such thing as a culture of sociopathy, for obvious reasons, this is necessarily not a cultural factor), that's simply not going to work; merely by making that explicitly known, you are in effect pushing the individual to end their relationship on your behalf, which is of course the very root of being disrespectful to that relationship.

AtomicKitKat

2010-04-22, 10:59 AM

Syka

2010-04-22, 11:07 AM

I'm a little confused about the abusive thing. I personally think someone who limits their rage to objects, rather than people, is better than the other way around. Admittedly, if it's certain specific objects, rather than say, an uncooperative device, I can certainly see it to be abusive. Or am I just somewhat blind?:smallconfused:

It's one of those "this CAN be a sign of a potential abuser". If it's JUST that without the other stuff, they are unlikely to be abusive (controlling, manipulation, etc). It's just something that a lot of abusers exhibit.

Exhibit A: Ex never raised a hand to me, and as far as I know didn't rage against objects. He had a serious temper, though, and arguments were frequent. No matter the trigger, I was always the one to apologize. He told me some things that were a little scary about his psyche, but when I mentioned seeing a therapist to maybe help he...well, he wasn't happy is an understatement.

There is a good chance that it would have turned physically abusive had we lived near each other.

Exhibit B: Oz can have a temper, but it's rare. He has been known to hit walls, and I have seen this. All it's taken from me was a single look to get him to come back down from the anger. (Note: it wasn't an argument between us, it was something else). Other than that, he doesn't have ANY signs of a potential abuser.

I've never worried about my safety. In arguments, I've never thought he was trying to make me feel bad or guilt me into apologizing or anything, and it's never gotten to where I thought he would raise a hand to me. His anger has also tempered a significant amount because he tries not to bottle stuff up anymore.

So, it CAN be a sign, but it isn't always. There is context that needs to be accounted for and all. I mean, hell, I've thrown pillows across my room and hit pillows and all in anger (while alone, though). The only reason I've never hit a wall is because I didn't want to deal with a potential hole, lol.

Also, Pyrian pretty much got what I was trying to say on the head. It didn't have to do with monogamy itself, although it's implied, but rather the fact that it IS pressuring. Having been on the receiving end, it is pressuring. And that, it and of itself, is disrespectful to the relationship. It doesn't matter if that's your intent or not, that's how it will likely be taken.

Rogue 7

2010-04-22, 11:31 AM

Howdy, folks.

Let's get the preliminaries out of the way. I'm 20, nearly 21. Currently studying abroad in Japan. I've yet to have anything resembling a serious relationship.

Now, a lot of that I put at the feet of the fact that I was awkward, antisocial, and generally something of a loser in high school. I had friends- female ones, even!- but was terrible at expressing...well, basically anything. I've improved substantially in college, but have yet to turn that into anything concrete, largely due to the fact that I wasn't particularly interested in anyone at the time.

Apparently, Japan is very good for my mojo. The previous time I was here, when I was 16, was honestly the only time I've ever kissed a girl. This time, I've been here roundabout a month, and for the past few weeks, I've been flirting rather nicely with one particular girl.

Now, the issue is twofold. The first is that I both live and go to school on the East Coast. She goes to school in Washington state, and is from Hawaii. The second is that back at school, prior to my departure, I was receiving some very good signals from one particular girl with whom I have a rather staggering amount of interests in common. I mean, we hit it off like you wouldn't believe.

So, I would like to double-check my thought that in any serious involvement between myself and the first girl in question, I'm really going to have to make it clear that I'm looking at this as a temporary thing, at least to start with. Advice on ways to do so without seeming a total sleazebag?

skywalker

2010-04-22, 11:57 AM

I'm a firm believer in the "Soul Mate Pool". It's like a pool of candidates. All of them would be equally compatible with you, probably in different ways, but you'd be happy with them (assuming other things held equal). A lot of it is who gets there first. :smallwink:

+1

I believe in soul mates but not in a bad way.

Altho, getting kicked out of the soul mate pool that one time kinda hurt...

I'm a little confused about the abusive thing. I personally think someone who limits their rage to objects, rather than people, is better than the other way around. Admittedly, if it's certain specific objects, rather than say, an uncooperative device, I can certainly see it to be abusive. Or am I just somewhat blind?:smallconfused:

I think it's more about whether or not you show it to other people. Like if you smash things or punch walls. Private expression of anger, in my opinion, is less likely to qualify. I think it's stupid to tell people who get their stuff out instead of holding it all in that they're potential abusers. Doesn't really contribute to positive self-image.

Anyway, don't go through those lists unless you think you're in an abusive relationship. Otherwise, you'll tear yourself apart trying to figure out whether or not you're a potential abuser. And that's never good.

Starbuck_II

2010-04-22, 12:34 PM

I'm a firm believer in the "Soul Mate Pool". It's like a pool of candidates. All of them would be equally compatible with you, probably in different ways, but you'd be happy with them (assuming other things held equal).

I hold this paragragh to be self-evident and true as well.

Howdy, folks.

Let's get the preliminaries out of the way. I'm 20, nearly 21. Currently studying abroad in Japan. I've yet to have anything resembling a serious relationship.

Now, a lot of that I put at the feet of the fact that I was awkward, antisocial, and generally something of a loser in high school. I had friends- female ones, even!- but was terrible at expressing...well, basically anything. I've improved substantially in college, but have yet to turn that into anything concrete, largely due to the fact that I wasn't particularly interested in anyone at the time.

Story of my life (except I did find people interesting). Also, I never thought myself a loser.

Apparently, Japan is very good for my mojo. The previous time I was here, when I was 16, was honestly the only time I've ever kissed a girl. This time, I've been here roundabout a month, and for the past few weeks, I've been flirting rather nicely with one particular girl.

Now, the issue is twofold. The first is that I both live and go to school on the East Coast. She goes to school in Washington state, and is from Hawaii. The second is that back at school, prior to my departure, I was receiving some very good signals from one particular girl with whom I have a rather staggering amount of interests in common. I mean, we hit it off like you wouldn't believe.

So, I would like to double-check my thought that in any serious involvement between myself and the first girl in question, I'm really going to have to make it clear that I'm looking at this as a temporary thing, at least to start with. Advice on ways to do so without seeming a total sleazebag?

So you have 2 girls you like.
One will soon will be long distance and you kinda of like her alot, but another is at your school and you thought you had much chemisty with.

So this is the sure thing or the potential great one, Conundrum?
Never had this situation so I may not be best advice giver.

Really, yeah if you want to not be a sleazebag it would be best to be honest. How much you tell her depends on how much you think you need to.

Syka

2010-04-22, 12:56 PM

Rogue, there is nothing wrong with being up front with her. As long as you are both fully aware of what is happening, there isn't an issue. People would probably say the last guy I dated was using me; but in that case, I'd have been using him just as much. 2 months after we started going out I moved off to college, and while we were in a relationship in all but name (I still don't refer to him as an ex), it was what we needed at the time. Maybe Japan Girl also just wants someone to be relationship-y with without the weight of a commitment. (Subtly different from friends with benefits, in that there is definitely dating occurring. It lacks the implied long-term commitment of what I would label a romantic relationship, but with public acknowledgment that the relationship is more than friends.)

That said, it's purely up to you. You are the only one who can decided whether or not it is OK for you. Who knows...it may work out and you forget all about Girl Back Home and end up willing to do the long distance thing.

LDRs get a bad rap, and while they can be nervewracking, they can also be rewarding in ways that a local relationship is not.

Pyrian

2010-04-22, 01:04 PM

So, I would like to double-check my thought that in any serious involvement between myself and the first girl in question, I'm really going to have to make it clear that I'm looking at this as a temporary thing, at least to start with. Advice on ways to do so without seeming a total sleazebag?Keep it to yourself.

Okay, here's the thing. We see this here all the time, almost invariably among people with little or no dating experience, and I call it "assumption of commitment where none exists". Speaking from the trenches, the harsh reality is that the case you're concerned about - that both of these potential relationships will actually pan out long-term and you'll have to dump the one for the other - is vanishingly improbable. At the moment you have no commitment whatsoever to either of these women and there's a reasonable chance you never will. Acting like you have a commitment to somebody you don't have any sort of romantic relationship with yet is just a bad idea all around.

And even if it does happen exactly like you're picturing it, don't worry about it too much. Have a relationship now, have another relationship later. It's only a (semi-)permanent connection if you get married. If you're just dating (even in a closed relationship), you're still more than free to break up to date someone else when you move away. And who knows, maybe you'll like this current woman so much that you two find a way to stay together.

Malfunctioned

2010-04-22, 01:09 PM

Bleh, I know it's quite bad etiquette but I do need some kind of advice for this, especially as the party mention is tomorrow night, I think it may of been overlooked on the last page. If there is no advice you guys can give then I do apologise for reposting this.

I'm not sure why but I'd thought I'd post a little update, and I do mean little. :smalltongue:

So today I was back at college and saw both M and J, nothing much happened really, I talked with M a bit, there was possibly a very small bit of flirting but then again I'm about as oblivious as a deaf man at a silent rave. Seriously, the person I've had to previously rely on to tell me when girls are interested could be called Cuckoo-Cloud Lander on her sane days. Anyway, I spoke J a bit as well, did a little gaming and everything seemed okay really.

Though there was a small thing though, another mutual friend of all three of us is having a party, I was planning on telling M how I felt there, however whilst me, M and that other friend were talking about it J overheard. Now he had already said that he couldn't make it to the party, something I was quite glad of since that would mean that if M didn't feel the same way I wouldn't have to deal with him knowing that I had told her, but today he said that he could make it to the party now. Now my opinion may be, and I completely understand how it could not be though that's just how my paranoid mind works, that he suspects what I may of had planned and he doesn't really want that to happen.

Then again, I may be jumping to conclusions. There was another interesting thing that the other friend, hereby referred to as C, said. I asked her whether she knew if M felt that same way her reply was something along this lines of "I'm not going to answer that, you need some time to be single and" This part is word-for-word "....if you ask me again then I'm going to slap both of you."

The only part I'm suspect about is where she said 'both' instead of just 'you'. Then again conclusion jumping is possible.

Sooo....Any advice? Comments?

Pyrian

2010-04-22, 01:17 PM

I'm sorry, Malfunctioned, but all that makes my head hurt. :smallcool: Odds are none of it means anything. Really, though? Ask out any single female you want to ask out (if you don't know if she's available ask her). If nothing pans out move on. Spending lots and lots of time and effort on this sort of thing will probably just hurt your odds in the long run.

Pheehelm

2010-04-22, 01:28 PM

I'm a little confused about the abusive thing. I personally think someone who limits their rage to objects, rather than people, is better than the other way around. Admittedly, if it's certain specific objects, rather than say, an uncooperative device, I can certainly see it to be abusive. Or am I just somewhat blind?:smallconfused:I'll grant you that it is technically "better" but still not a good thing. Intimidation is a big part of object abuse. The message could be summarized as "I am so angry at you right now I feel like hitting something, and if you push your luck with me any further, it could be you." Or to further condense: "You're next."

Also:

Breaking or Striking Objects

The abusive person may break your treasured object, beat his/her fists on the table or chair or throw something at or past you. Breaking your things is often used as a punishment for some imagined misdeed on your part. Sometimes it will be justified by saying that now that you are with him/her, you don't need these items any more. Breaking your possessions also has the effect of de-personalising you, denying you your individuality or literally trying to break links to your past. Beating items of furniture or throwing objects will often be justified by saying you wound him/her up so much they lost control, once again shifting the blame for this behaviour on to you, but is actually used to terrorise you into submission. Only very immature or abusive people beat on objects in the presence of other people in order to threaten or intimidate them.

(Syka, did you catch this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8343178&postcount=182)?)

skywalker

2010-04-22, 01:32 PM

Though there was a small thing though, another mutual friend of all three of us is having a party, I was planning on telling M how I felt there, however whilst me, M and that other friend were talking about it J overheard. Now he had already said that he couldn't make it to the party, something I was quite glad of since that would mean that if M didn't feel the same way I wouldn't have to deal with him knowing that I had told her, but today he said that he could make it to the party now. Now my opinion may be, and I completely understand how it could not be though that's just how my paranoid mind works, that he suspects what I may of had planned and he doesn't really want that to happen.

It's unlikely that he's thinking this way. He might not want you to be around her period, but it's unlikely he sensed your intentions. Parties, as discussed previously here, are not the best place for this sort of thing.

Then again, I may be jumping to conclusions. There was another interesting thing that the other friend, hereby referred to as C, said. I asked her whether she knew if M felt that same way her reply was something along this lines of "I'm not going to answer that, you need some time to be single and" This part is word-for-word "....if you ask me again then I'm going to slap both of you."

The only part I'm suspect about is where she said 'both' instead of just 'you'. Then again conclusion jumping is possible.

Sooo....Any advice? Comments?

It does seem strange that she mentioned both of you. Strange indeed. Just go for it, as Pyrian said. What's the worst that could happen?
Though there was a small thing though, another mutual friend of all three of us is having a party, I was planning on telling M how I felt there, however whilst me, M and that other friend were talking about it J overheard. Now he had already said that he couldn't make it to the party, something I was quite glad of since that would mean that if M didn't feel the same way I wouldn't have to deal with him knowing that I had told her, but today he said that he could make it to the party now. Now my opinion may be, and I completely understand how it could not be though that's just how my paranoid mind works, that he suspects what I may of had planned and he doesn't really want that to happen.

It's unlikely that he's thinking this way. He might not want you to be around her period, but it's unlikely he sensed your intentions. Parties, as discussed previously here, are not the best place for this sort of thing.

Then again, I may be jumping to conclusions. There was another interesting thing that the other friend, hereby referred to as C, said. I asked her whether she knew if M felt that same way her reply was something along this lines of "I'm not going to answer that, you need some time to be single and" This part is word-for-word "....if you ask me again then I'm going to slap both of you."

The only part I'm suspect about is where she said 'both' instead of just 'you'. Then again conclusion jumping is possible.

Sooo....Any advice? Comments?

It does seem strange that she mentioned both of you. Strange indeed. Just go for it, as Pyrian said. What's the worst that could happen?

Keep it to yourself.

Okay, here's the thing. We see this here all the time, almost invariably among people with little or no dating experience, and I call it "assumption of commitment where none exists". Speaking from the trenches, the harsh reality is that the case you're concerned about - that both of these potential relationships will actually pan out long-term and you'll have to dump the one for the other - is vanishingly improbable. At the moment you have no commitment whatsoever to either of these women and there's a reasonable chance you never will. Acting like you have a commitment to somebody you don't have any sort of romantic relationship with yet is just a bad idea all around.

And even if it does happen exactly like you're picturing it, don't worry about it too much. Have a relationship now, have another relationship later. It's only a (semi-)permanent connection if you get married. If you're just dating (even in a closed relationship), you're still more than free to break up to date someone else when you move away. And who knows, maybe you'll like this current woman so much that you two find a way to stay together.

Listen to the man with the nice hat. He knows the score here. Probably the best post I've read all day.

EDIT:
I'll grant you that it is technically "better" but still not a good thing. Intimidation is a big part of object abuse. The message could be summarized as "I am so angry at you right now I feel like hitting something, and if you push your luck with me any further, it could be you." Or to further condense: "You're next."

OR, it could mean "I'm so angry I feel like hitting something, and since I quite cherish you, I'm going to break this chair instead." It could go either way.

Also:

The abusive person may break your treasured object, beat his/her fists on the table or chair or throw something at or past you. Breaking your things is often used as a punishment for some imagined misdeed on your part. Sometimes it will be justified by saying that now that you are with him/her, you don't need these items any more. Breaking your possessions also has the effect of de-personalising you, denying you your individuality or literally trying to break links to your past. Beating items of furniture or throwing objects will often be justified by saying you wound him/her up so much they lost control, once again shifting the blame for this behaviour on to you, but is actually used to terrorise you into submission. Only very immature or abusive people beat on objects in the presence of other people in order to threaten or intimidate them.

I am really quite sick of this. Check the part I bolded. This needs to be made much clearer. Just because someone is striking objects in your presence does not mean they are trying to intimidate you. And the difference between striking objects within an interpersonal conflict and outside of personal conflict needs to be made clearer. Yes, as an argumentative tactic, it is bad. No, as a method of dealing with personal frustration in a private setting (not necessarily alone, with trusted support can work), it is not bad. FGS.