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TheMinxTail
2010-04-16, 07:23 PM
While making myself a cup of tea as us residents of the UK are compelled to do, I found myself struck by some degree of inspiration, the lead in for the main topic, if you shall indulge me furtehr good reader:

The paragons among mortals that are your characters [LV20 PCs] thought that with the fall of all that darkness that had come before them, all the corpses left smited, slashed and burned behind them, that on this seemingly normal - or as by thier perception of the concept, normal - trek through the enigmatic dungeon could pose as much of a threat as the one you sensed the second the first of you layed hands upon the door. As it swings ajar, without the casting of a single detect spell, your perceptions are overloaded, yourselves overpowerred as you step into teh chamber, before even reality itself seems to rebind, reshape to better fit your perceptions. Before you is and odd man - dressed in the most outlandish clothes, his head resting on teh back of his hands, a board and table before his humble throne in the far edge of the room. Feeling a compulsion run through you that not even the Paladin can quite resist as he beckons forth with a wave of his hand, not taking his eyes from the board and the pieces therein for a moment, you approach, noting the movement of teh pieces on teh board as you do so. As you near close enough to recognise the statuettes strewn across the board as yourselves, he holds out his palm, commanding a pause from you as he looks forth, not up at you, throwing back his cowl. 'Greetings', he says, in a voice containing authority taht rings throughout yourskull as he speaks such simple words. 'I am the Dungeon Master.'

A tad hammy, I know, but I thought up the words as I went along, and hey, I managed to do it all vefore my tea got cold (come to think of it, that's what motivated me to finish the final chapter to the first draft of my novel, must remember to utilise this technique). My thusfar unpublished works aside, I decided that it would be cool if, as an epilogue to an epic campaign, preferably one that steered the PCs through memorable advantures from first to twentieth level of killing everything from goblin commoners to the ridiculously overtemplated Balor Lord Lich and his horde of fallen angels, the PCs could fight the Dungeon Master himself - a being who is basically God. This presents all sorts of handling options and concundrems that, sadly, I am a tad removed from; after all the level 5 party that I DM for doesn't even have the brains for cantrips yet, I'm not going to have the ultimate foe randomly appear to them for quite a bit - hell, at least one of them will have graduated by the time they can handle Pit Fiends. In such a case, those more experienced of currently relevant DMs might be able to guide my thoughts on how to approach such an encounter, as one day I do plan on using it to wrap up the last of the loose ends (though probably in another campaign - thsi one is sort of falling apart at the seams due to my inexperience).

The first question is of what reason teh DM would want to fight the PCs directly. This is, granted, something that I can worry about in a more case specific context. However, the biggest one I thought of is to test them, trial them, perhaps to see if they are worthy of ascension or defending their world a bit longer. In the case of the former, the PCs might have the conundrum in mind of finally taking teh small window of oppurtunity of ascending to what is basically Heaven in every sense of the concept, that or a demigod level campaign (have to break the limit somehow), and be prompted to chose between rewards or staying on earth a while longer to defend the world. A more epic explanation is that they have become old and withered, or the final battle drained much of their power, or the world has in some almost etheral way outgrown them (i.e. if all the criminals in Gotham turned themselves in and teh psychopaths became adjusted and the worst anyone ever did was insurace fraud, does it really need Batman?), but as their whole adult lives have been nothing but impossible odds after impossible odds spread throughout high-fantasy battles, tehy cannot bare to simply fade into the background. Sensing their wishes, the Dunegon Master himself appears - a large tower manifesting in the middle of their hometown that no one else can interact with or detect, each level containing one of their old adverseries, the twenty first level their ultimate opponent. While the dungeon master may pull his punches enough to not ultimately eradicate them instantly, he does give them a run for their money, and an honourable death, fighting by the sidss of their friends, exactly how they would have wanted it. In such a case, the dungeon master might pretend to be a hellbent villain, a childish personality taht has grown bored of and wants to scrap their very existence, even pretending to fall along with the last of the PCs with a cry of 'curses' to leave them safe in the knowledge they succeeded.

Another concundrum is the general appearance of the so-called dungeons master. I have four main categories, though their are plenty of variations I am sure, these seem the most intresting. First is the typical Gandalf-type look, old man, robes, white hair, you know the stereotypical wizard even if he is a, say, Fighter. The key to this one is helping pull off the impression of the almighty being, and an intesting spin would be have teh Pcs each, whether it is there or not, see something of an elderly male figure they revered in him - the retired knight who passed down everything he knew of swordplay to the Paladin, the archmage who vanished off the face of teh earth after overseeing the wizard's graduation ceremony, etcetera. The second is effectively nothing - either an utterly nondescript character, perhaps hidden in the shadows, or one who is magically warded from perception by the mere inhabitants of the D&D multiverse - either way think the Thing In the Shadows that Xykon has, though perhaps with better taste in food. The third is abberation - something that is alien even in biology and makes little to no secret of it, such as the Cthulhu or Pennywise the Dancing Clown. This is more of a combat effect - the PCs would have to overcome a very strange set of challenges to prevail - unheard of spell-like effects that Spell Resistence has no effect against. For me personally, I don't think that would have quite teh right feel unless it were the lead in for a new campaign world. Finally, the fourth is, of course, me. I don't mean if you try this technique make a character based on me personally, I mean the actual DM. The advantage to this is that the second you describe the Dungeon Master's unkempt hair and eery glare, the PCs will know from the getgo who this person is - and shiver to think what's about to be thrown at them. This might be a bit of an ego trip, but its probably the technique I would use. after all, more than any of the other categories I thought up, this is the one taht teh players will most readily accept before them as Dungeon Master - the face that's stared across at them from teh other side of screen and board for the last year's weekends.

The final question is of how the combat plays out, which I would like to see discussed amongst you all in this forum as I am sure it will have the most varied response. I would personally have a shapeshifting arena taht split off teh PCs into a background fro single combat best fitting their personality/experience/fighting style - the fabricated smouldering ruins of the Grand Cathedral and Imperial Castle for the royal Paladin, an actual gladiatorial arena for the Fighter, an eschewed space version of a darkened street for the Rogue, whatever. The Dungeon Master then splits into multiple forms, each looking like a cross between his regular self and the PC he faced in that location, particularly in gear. The idea is that the OCs must prove their individual capabilities ina battle with someone who is supposed to be jsut like them but better - perhaps without Age Penalties or some sort of template, but otherwise like a Mirror of Opposition. This section would not be limited to combat either - for example, the Ranger is sent away to a celestial forest wherein he must find the Dunegon Master or another object befor ehe himself is found, during which teh DM effectively closes his metaphoriacal (or physical) third eye to 'even' the playing field. Or the wizard faces off for a battle of grandeur with magic crafting, or a contest or riddles. In the case of noncombat sequences, or the given examples or trading riddles, it may be quite hard to pull off (see also the compiled explanation for why stupid people can't effectively roleplay smart people, though not necessarily visa versa), though if pulled off with just the right ability could be the most memorable part of the campaign. After the PCs each triumph in their chosen category, perhaps surpassng the last of their shortcomings, the arena morphs into something represting the groups unity - perhaps the place where they first met but with a far more supernatural tinge to it or their previous final battlefield, though now abandonned as the Dunegon Master pulls himself together, Effectively becoming an epic level Psion or something of the sorty (lets face it at high levels, when you think cosmic being, you either think Psionics or gave never heard of Psions), or hell, a dragon. Dungeons and DRAGONS after all; have it come full circle if yoru players won't smasm to death from the near-pun. The concepts aren't mutually exclusive by the by - you could totally have a Great Wyrm Psion. Now that would be a final boss. Either way, the PCs face their largest bag of hit points yet and wittle him down over the course of an epic batlle, expending every last charge in their epic staff etcetera, until the DM is 'slain'. At that point, he manifests one more time in the form of a disembodied voice to congratulate them as they reappear on the road the were swept off of, or on teh proad to their next campaign series as epic characters, and I do my best to simulate a where-are-they-now ending credits montage in DnD form.

Well, tell me what you think. I had a silly idea about using specific adventures to train PCs into DMs so we could rotate every now and then, but it can wait for a more approprioate forum. Anyway, thanks for reading this increadibly long post. I could be working on redrafting my 300 page confusing epic before approaching more agents or publishers, but hey; DnD wouldn't be the same if it didn't consume the lives of all but the most emotionally balances of its players, now would it?

Edit: Removed a few spelling mistakes from coloured text, too lazy to do all.

IonDragon
2010-04-16, 10:48 PM
Your post is much too long for my current state of mind. I read the colored part, but combined with your use of 'teh' instead of 'the', and the size of the rest of the article I just couldn't finish. :smallfrown: Sorry.

rayne_dragon
2010-04-16, 11:13 PM
I think it would be kind of neat to be able to fight "the DM" as a post-campaign bonus boss. Definitely the kind of idea that should be done as a humourous fight, in my opinion. For example, one of the DM's attacks could be throwing d20s at the PCs that magically grow to be 10' in diameter.

Coidzor
2010-04-17, 03:58 AM
So you're basically wondering what "The DM" would be in game?

And not Dungeon Master from the cartoon, either.

Kris Strife
2010-04-17, 04:03 AM
I thought it was supposed to be at the end of the campaign, the characters have to write up characters and play D&D themselves.

jebob
2010-04-17, 04:11 AM
This article has given me some ideas, I was originally planning to have my PC's fight through a series of dungeons and then face the master, but he would be unbeatable. I was thinking of the dungeon itself being semi-sentient, but hey-ho.

Otodetu
2010-04-17, 05:07 AM
wow, unbeatable end-boss, how fun...

jebob
2010-04-17, 05:16 AM
(fairly) unbeatable
Sorry, Im a bit inexperienced :smallredface:
What do you think of the sentient dungeon idea?

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 06:00 AM
So you're basically wondering what "The DM" would be in game?

And not Dungeon Master from the cartoon, either.

I think the cartoon was a tad before my time. I haven't heard much about it, but the opening sequence seems absurdly corny.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 06:03 AM
I thought it was supposed to be at the end of the campaign, the characters have to write up characters and play D&D themselves.

Something about a wizard sitting opposite the dungeon master and not cheating gets a chuickle out of me. But then, the DM screen would surely have Nondetection cast on it. Or how about the typical orc-stupid fighter who used every mental stat as a dump trying top create characters or roleplay.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 06:10 AM
Your post is much too long for my current state of mind. I read the colored part, but combined with your use of 'teh' instead of 'the', and the size of the rest of the article I just couldn't finish. :smallfrown: Sorry.

Yeah, its a horrible habit of mine -'teh' being the most common mispel, BY FAR taht I make. (and yeah, I know there was an error there. It was a joke. I'M SO INADEQUETE, ME NO SPEL RITE) It mostly comes from me not having a spell check that underlines mistakes automaticall and just plain speed typing in horrible tandem. But hey, I'd liek to see you right all that in an hour and not make a spelling mistake. Anyway, you don't have to read the whole article in one go - to my knowledge its not going anywhere. Bookmark the page and keep it for a rainy day or something.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 06:11 AM
Yeah, its a horrible habit of mine -'teh' being the most common mispel, BY FAR taht I make. (and yeah, I know there was an error there. It was a joke. I'M SO INADEQUETE, ME NO SPEL RITE) It mostly comes from me not having a spell check that underlines mistakes automaticall and just plain speed typing in horrible tandem. But hey, I'd liek to see you right all that in an hour and not make a spelling mistake. Anyway, you don't have to read the whole article in one go - to my knowledge its not going anywhere. Bookmark the page and keep it for a rainy day or something.

Methinks rainy days may be a bit more common in your part of the world.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 06:19 AM
I think it would be kind of neat to be able to fight "the DM" as a post-campaign bonus boss. Definitely the kind of idea that should be done as a humourous fight, in my opinion. For example, one of the DM's attacks could be throwing d20s at the PCs that magically grow to be 10' in diameter.

I had another idea for an epic arena wherein the Dungeon Master distorts reality and rebuilds it by way of dice rolling and generation tables; the PCs are thrust into a weird alternate reality where their race and location, etc., are randomly determined, but retain their memories and have to seek out the Dungeon Master and make him fix reality as he goes about randomly generation a whole new world around them. It would be lengthy and would actually involve me rolling a ton of d20s, but it might be good with the right execution. But then, any plan could be described that way. The easiest colution would probably be for the players themselves to confiscate the snacks from me by group force until I fixed reality - after all, in suich a bizarre situation, there is no box in which to think.

jebob
2010-04-17, 08:04 AM
Methinks rainy days may be a bit more common in your part of the world.

This is the UK, we have NOTHING but rainy days!

Fuzzie Fuzz
2010-04-17, 04:45 PM
I found this a tad tl;dr, but I skimmed, and I must say I quite like the idea. I've been toying with a similar idea, having the players realize that all of the problems with the world are being caused by a strange entity. They trace him to his base, thinking they're oh-so-clever, only to find this person waiting for them. As he turns, I describe myself as accurately as possible. He bows slowly and dramatically, and appears to be terribly naive, as he launches into his dramatic evil villain speech, but proves to be terribly Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy), and then fights them. They will win, but it'll be difficult, and I'm not actually sure how to do it without cheapening their victory.

Dust
2010-04-17, 05:46 PM
Sentient dungeons are always a lot of fun, no matter what form they take are the precise nuances involved. I wholeheartedly promote this idea, even if you scrap the 'DM as a Boss' aspect.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 07:03 PM
I found this a tad tl;dr, but I skimmed, and I must say I quite like the idea. I've been toying with a similar idea, having the players realize that all of the problems with the world are being caused by a strange entity. They trace him to his base, thinking they're oh-so-clever, only to find this person waiting for them. As he turns, I describe myself as accurately as possible. He bows slowly and dramatically, and appears to be terribly naive, as he launches into his dramatic evil villain speech, but proves to be terribly Genre Savvy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenreSavvy), and then fights them. They will win, but it'll be difficult, and I'm not actually sure how to do it without cheapening their victory.

Yeah, having the DM be the cause of all the bad things in the world is technically true and it does seem when you describe the role liek that he could well be the final boss. However, my idea is more upon him being a, shall we say, epilogue; he set the gears in motion and monitored the system, occassionally meddling subtly or even not so subtly in the affairs of the PCs and of the entire world to get them where they are today, the ultimate victors. Perhaps, depending on the DM, the PCs spontaneously generated into existence teh day their adventures began, memories optional, created purely by the DM as part of the game. However, having the DM be the climax villain, without a moderately comical campaign (not quite Order of teh Stick, but certainly not Vile Darkness v. Exalted Deeds tension), would feel like a bit of a let down. If you have the right style and scenario go for it, I guess. Hell, I'm not really speaking from experience or working knowledge, just guesswork, as the entire original post was, so if you feel confident don't let me hold you back.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-17, 07:05 PM
This is the UK, we have NOTHING but rainy days!

That's not entirely true. This island has at least a dozen or so days in any given year when it doesn't rain. After all, the heavens themselves must run dry sooner or later (tell that to the crazed wizard with periodically cast Control Weather). Yeah, it rains a lot here. That's why I play DnD - so I don't have to go outside and get wet like some idiot FUNCTIONAL member of society.

Primehunter74
2010-04-17, 07:43 PM
Have you ever thought of making an "aspect" of the DM? That way you're not all-powerful, yet you're still a challenge.

I've wanted to make stats for a DM, but anything I think of is trumped by DM lightning. Well, our DM uses it and the best description is that he basically just says "You interupted box text, I cast DM lightning, take 12 points of damage" (or any other amount that wouldn't kill you but would put you at a slight disadvantage in the next fight.) Just a silly thing he does.

Anyway, Aspect of DM would be cool.

TheMinxTail
2010-04-18, 02:50 PM
Have you ever thought of making an "aspect" of the DM? That way you're not all-powerful, yet you're still a challenge.

I've wanted to make stats for a DM, but anything I think of is trumped by DM lightning. Well, our DM uses it and the best description is that he basically just says "You interupted box text, I cast DM lightning, take 12 points of damage" (or any other amount that wouldn't kill you but would put you at a slight disadvantage in the next fight.) Just a silly thing he does.

Anyway, Aspect of DM would be cool.

I would use spontaneous combustion - as I did once when the group rogue decided to rush and make an untrained Use Magic Device Check with an uinidentified scroll handed to the group containing a Deus Ex Machina spell that I haven't used yet (the party wizard won't be able to Dismiss the literally unbeatable dark entity that the evil sorceress summons by the level the adventure wraps up, so I had to improvise). After the rogue thumbled, I ruled that the scroll doesn't activates but instead partially blows up in her face (still functional) and burns her skin. She gladly shelled out the cash for a potion of cure light wounds (no cleric) just to get her face back to normal even though I ruled no direct gameplay flaw. I guess it's all about finding the right punishment for teh right player, though I think literally striking with lightning for interrupting box text might be a bit suspension-of-disbelief destroying if you want to run things seriously. Plus, my chosen method of spontaneous combustion just hasn't got a good enough ring to it for me to make a pattern out of it.

Anyway, as for the idea for aspect of the DM, that's kind of what I was going for already, though I didn't think to use those exact words. It's not like the PCs could really ever beat the DM if he went all out after all, is it? Well, I guess the cut off point for the DMs power is when the players all throw up their arms, cry bull**** and leave the table until he lets them have a fighting chance, instead of lightning-ing them to death instantly every time they bring tehe aspect down to a killable quantity of hitpoints. Or, if I was playing with teh violent type, punching me in the head until I fall down, thus defeating the DnD incrantaion by extension.