View Full Version : Is this Overpowered?

2010-04-17, 12:18 AM
So one of the players in my current group, a Tome of Fiends warlock (some kind of homebrew) is considering getting a feat that somehow lets him get Greater Teleport at will at sixth level, but is limited to him and fifty pounds of equipment.

I realize it's the DM's call, but the player and I have been back and forth about this and I've come to realize that I don't have the familarity with Greater Teleport necessary to determine if it's overpowered, purely for the development of my own opinion (to clarify I am not the DM). Thus, I come to you, the Playground, and ask your opinion.

2010-04-17, 12:29 AM
Technically, Tome of Fiends is balanced. It's just that it's balanced internally, and against very high optimization wizards. If the rest of the players aren't on the same level/using material from the other Tomes, then it's going to be ridiculously overpowered.

2010-04-17, 12:31 AM
The ability to teleport any place in a plane with no chance of error at level six? No, I don't see how that could be an issue at all http://i40.tinypic.com/2cx6s1t.jpg

2010-04-17, 12:34 AM
I'm probably no more familiar than you with this but I would not allow it. There is a feat in Complete Mage that gives you Teleport, Summon Monster V, and Unholy Blight each 1/day. It's a heritage feat. It's available at level 9. You could offer that as a compromise.

2010-04-17, 12:38 AM
I should mention that the rest of the party includes:

1. A bard
2. A rogue/wizard who's new at this
3. Me, the shaper, aided by my guilt at figuring out little snaps of TO that let me steal the spotlight rather more than I should. I'm working on it, but I'm doubling as our battlefield controller and our fighter (astral construct)

2010-04-17, 12:39 AM
Can you give us the name and source of the feat? Perhaps there are limits on it, or something that he's missing.

2010-04-17, 12:42 AM
Hi, I'm pretty sure I'm the player the OP is talking about

For reference, he is a fine sized warforged scout with ... 30 INT, I think
The Bard has a similar charisma (regularly rolls over 40 on diplomacy)
The Rogue, I do feel kinda bad for, but he's not one of the ones complaining

My stats are human with 32 point buy

Also, consider: this is equivalent to one of the abilities on the CR 2 Lantern archon.

EDIT: for reference, here is where the feat is posted

2010-04-17, 12:43 AM
I can only assume that as this is written, you're the GM of the game. At which point I want you to consider something, its your job to help the players travel the world and accomplish thier goals, and provide them with decent enough challenge so that when they succeed they can actually feel the excitement. With that said, I agree with Tavar, if the other player's arent optimized then it will be overpowered, but its not like theres not means of countering such powers.
This teleport will effect how the group operates as much as how he operates. If you're still unsure on how to handle this, then consider reaching a middle ground, oppose a restriction on the power that you feel limits the power to the groups level, but still gives him the option for the travel.
Also, keep in mind, having a group member with greater teleport is quite useful to you as the party can send him with his bag of holding to sell their goods and pickup much needed supplies whenever, thus you no longer need to provide cities/towns to vender stuff in. This allows you to emerse your players even deeper into the story without nerfing their ability to continue to fight. I for one would limit its use in combat, but thats just me.

2010-04-17, 12:43 AM
Yeah, RadiantPhoenix is as he says. How do I close a thread? It's hardly objective now.

2010-04-17, 12:45 AM
Also, consider: this is equivalent to one of the abilities on the CR 2 Lantern archon.
CR is a rating on how dangerous they are to a party, not on how powerful the creatures abilities are, especially if they are in a players hands.

Still, it'd be helpful to know where the feat is/what it's named.

Edit; that feat is only available to outsiders.

2010-04-17, 12:46 AM
Google comes up with several wiki pages for 'Tome of Fiends (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29)' and the feat in question appears to be called Greater Teleport (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Tome_of_Fiends_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/Spheres_and_Feats#The_Feats). Apparently, any Outsider PC can take that feat at 6th level and Greater Teleport at will. Considering that every Outsider PC would take this feat, and many PCs would find a way to become an Outsider in order to take this feat, I would say that yes it is definitely overpowered.

2010-04-17, 12:52 AM
Uh... yeah, how exactly are you an Outsider, again? As a human, you distinctly lack the type. :smallconfused:

2010-04-17, 12:55 AM
To explain, his class allows him to qualify as a fiend.

2010-04-17, 12:55 AM
Regarding outsider requirement: The class qualifies for feats as a fiend starting at level 2. Given that 'Fiend' is defined in 3.5 D&D as 'exemplar of an evil alignment' and exemplar is defined as 'outsider with an alignment subtype' I'm pretty sure I qualify

Also, you're right, CR is probably not the best measurement. A lantern archon is considered ECL 5 by the book of exalted deeds. That is where they got the 5th level requirement from, I believe.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 01:05 AM
It's Frank&K's material. It's balanced if the DM is comfortable with Rocket Tag games or with Tier 2 classes.

Generally speaking, you're no more powerful than a moderately optimized Sorcerer when using Tome material. However, it doesn't have the same weaknesses as the Tier 2 classes do (AKA: abilities that no one should ever use). Only a handful of people who aren't personally familiar with Frank&K or the forum he frequents are going to be comfortable with his work.

Even I take some issue with some Tome material (Wish Economy, for example).

2010-04-17, 01:09 AM
So far we haven't even entered the 'gold economy' so I don't think we're getting into the wish economy until and unless we start it ourselves.

2010-04-17, 01:14 AM
I am not aware of Exemplar being defined in any WotC D&D product, so we'll have to go with the English definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exemplar):

1. a model or pattern to be copied or imitated: Washington is the exemplar of patriotic virtue.
2. a typical example or instance.
3. an original or archetype: Plato thought nature but a copy of ideal exemplars.
4. a copy of a book or text.

"Outsider creature type" is not included in "model of evil by which others may follow"

Qualifying for things as though you were a fiend does not change your creature type, and it is possible to be a fiend without being an outsider (Example: Blood Fiend, Fiend Folio). Being treated as though you were a fiend does not automatically make you treated as though you were an outsider, at best it treats you as though you had the [evil] subtype and nothing more.

2010-04-17, 01:23 AM
I think exemplar comes from planescape...


refers specifically to this

EDIT: After much research, I have discovered that the term exemplar is fan-made, which means that my previous statement on the definition of 'Fiend' was improperly phrased from the perspective of strict adherence to the rules. I will need to do more research.

2010-04-17, 01:27 AM
I think exemplar comes from planescape...


refers specifically to this
In 3.5 game terminology, there is no meaning to the word "exemplar" beyond what it means as an english word. Using it as justification for having the Outsider type or counting as an Outsider is... sketchy, at best. Now, if one assumes your DM isn't arguing the point (though, were I your DM, I would have a long conversation about wording with you), then it still is my opinion that Greater Teleport at will at ECL 5 is very very powerful, likely too powerful, unless everyone has similar power levels, though, it seems unlikely.

Btw, the word exemplar appears only twice in that wiki link. Neither time was relevant, game-wise. :smallwink:

2010-04-17, 01:27 AM
Honestly? I'd almost rather have Flee The Scene, which any Warlock can get at level 6.

2010-04-17, 07:57 AM
Greater Teleport [Monstrous]
The extraplanar blood running through your veins allows you to use the signature travel methods of the outer planes.
Prerequisite: Outsider, character level 5+
Benefit: You may use greater teleport at will as a spell-like ability. You may only transport yourself and 50 pounds of carried items.

too bad it isnt wizard material, because otherwise I would so role up a thiefling right about now.

but yeah, nerf it for combat at least if you actually plan to use it.
acolyte of the skin might qualify for it, though I havent checked that one out for a while so im not sure. Though wearing the skin of a fiend sorta implies it more then the whole examplar thing.

2010-04-17, 09:52 AM
It's from the Tome of Fiends, which is NOT meant to be used with normal D&D. Use all of Frank & K's work or none of it, unless your group has a very high optimization level. If you allow it, you should also encourage the rogue to use the Tome Assassin (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Assassin,_Tome_%283.5e_Class%29) or something similar.

Honestly? I'd almost rather have Flee The Scene, which any Warlock can get at level 6.

:smallconfused: I'm not seeing the logic here. Why would you want flee the scene when you can do exactly what it does with greater teleport, minus the image. AND you get to go anywhere in the universe instantly.

Doc Roc
2010-04-17, 10:01 AM
As much as I liked the Tomes, if you use the tomes, you have to use ALL the tomes. The problem is that the tomes were never finished by F&K and the community material lacks the same degree of quality control. In fact, ever since K left, the project's taken a down-turn.

I hate to advocate my own material, but I think you might consider using Legend instead. :S

2010-04-17, 10:16 AM
In combat, it's no more powerful than any of the lower-level teleportation effects (Knight's Move, Benign/Hostile Translocation to swap places, Anklets of Translocation, certainly Abrupt Jaunt.) It's still eating your standard action to make a move and you don't suffer destination-miss chances with any of the combat spells.

Out of combat is a bit stickier; right now, it's not likely to really hurt much, because the 50 pound limit prevents the character from bringing the rest of the party with him. The Warlock alone can get pretty much anywhere, but unless he's really that far above the level the GM is designing for, he shouldn't be able to accomplish major goals alone. It's most likely to be used to send the Warlock off on scouting or shopping trips (the party now has access to pretty much any mundane item within a minute of realizing they need it,) which are generally not game-breaking activities. The ability could be used to transport the whole party within a Portable Hole, but by the time they can readily afford one of those travel has stopped being a thing they should be concerned about- they'll have scrying and normal Teleport to get them places anyway, as well as Phantom Steeds, Wind Walk, and other ways to cover ground much faster than a man on foot could possibly go.

If the rest of the party isn't up to the Tome mark, however, and it sounds like they aren't, I'd rewrite the feat to tone it down a bit. Maybe something like
Character level 5+: Gain the ability to use Dimension Door, spell-like, limit you+50 pounds carried goods.
Level 10+: May choose to use Teleport instead
15+: May use Greater Teleport.
Retains the purpose and utility of the feat without granting the character abilities a normal Wizard wouldn't have access to for another 7-plus levels.

2010-04-17, 12:24 PM
Tome Assassin will help our Rogue so much; he's wanted to get into spellcasting anyway. I will show it to him and see if he wants to ask the DM about retraining.

2010-04-17, 01:10 PM
If your worried about in combat, make it a full round to use. That still lets the warlock escape, while making it so that he can't just abuse it constantly, though a smart warlock might teleport a mile up and drop dozens of alchemist's fire. Plenty of time for another full round teleport after that.

2010-04-17, 01:17 PM
Level 6 character + a bag of holding = perfect and limitless travel for the entire party.

Now, I am in favour of powerful characters, but that's a challenge for a DM at level 6.

In combat, its nice too, as you can position yourself anywhere, and as a scout, you'll take huge advantage of this in conjunction with skirmish.

That said, your character doesn't qualify by RAW anyway, so its not a huge issue really.

2010-04-17, 02:59 PM
First, there are some wording issues. Greater Teleport does technically imply that it's the spell, but it's the outsider ability, so that needs to be understood. What he'd be getting is this:

Teleport (Su): Archons can use greater teleport at will, as the spell (caster level 14th), except that the creature can transport only itself and up to 50 pounds of objects.

Second, the wording on the class ability is:

Fiendish Simularities A 2nd level Warlock may qualify for and take feats with the [Fiend] or [Necromantic] tag, as long as he meets the other requirements. For [Necromantic] feats, he may use his character level as his caster level.

Next, Tyger, the psion is a Warforged Scout, as in, a type of creature, not the Scout class.

The person that would be getting the feat is a Homebrewed Warlock variant.

As the warlock's player as said elsewhere, the game events in the past that GT would trivialize were already trivialized by the flying tiny size psion. These events were a rockslide and clearly visible pendulums. The psion, quite obviously, was able to fly over and walk under the threats with no difficulty.

There's also this question: Is a level 6 psion of tiny size (about the size of an original xbox controller), with 30 Int, and most construct immunities overpowered? Regardless of whether you think this is overpowered, or perfectly fine, it's likely no more powerful than a sixth level character with the outsider version of Greater Teleport.

2010-04-17, 03:29 PM
"Most" is an overstatement, but yes, it's getting irksome being so small that I can effectively slip through the cracks in the two challenges he admitted to GT trivializing. I try not to overuse it though. In fact, I'm no longer playing that character. Or any, in this game.

Incidentally, this is a campaign in which travel time is a major limitation. As long as we're getting campaign-specific, we've spent the past two game sessions operating under a frightful time limit to heal the rogue, most of which was eaten up in travel.

But all this is incidental to the central question, which I had intended to present outside of the setting before RadiantPhoenix showed up and eliminated the possibility: is the feat presented an overpowered feat?

2010-04-17, 04:01 PM
No the feat presented is not overpowered, if you are playing with you know, anything approaching optimized play. So like, 26 Int Medium sized Warforged Psions would be about as powerful as this.

In the context of the campaign, it's even more not overpowered then it is generally.

Of course, you should probably keep in mind that the feat was made under dungeonomicon assumptions. Which include that all teleports (including Wizard ones) are not capable of teleporting through more than 40ft of solid earth/stone/ect.

It certainly limits the in combat applications in many situations, and prevents super infiltration of dungeons.

2010-04-17, 04:06 PM
Thank you all for the input.