Why is V a known associate of Nale?

[magic9mushroom]

This bugs me. And Zzt'dri wouldn't be "subtype unknown", since he's obviously Drow.

[Ichneumon]

This bugs me. And Zzt'dri wouldn't be "subtype unknown", since he's obviously Drow.

For some, his subtype might be unknown. V is just like Zzt'dri an elf, so it would make it easy for people to confuse them, if the only thing they have is "elf (subtype unknown)" and how big are the chances Nale is travelling with another elf?

[recluso]

I guess Nale has a long history of losing/switching wizard team members. He might, subconsciously, as part-sorcerer, feeling afraid of being dominated by wizards, and always choose either easily killed or otherwise problematic Wizards.

The absence of a cleric (Hilgya) as associate might be an indication a similar thing is going with clerics (and druids) - yet even worse, to the point no divine caster is considered an associate of him.

[Reshbj]

I am pretty sure they were referring to Pompey.

[magic9mushroom]

For some, his subtype might be unknown. V is just like Zzt'dri an elf, so it would make it easy for people to confuse them, if the only thing they have is "elf (subtype unknown)" and how big are the chances Nale is travelling with another elf?

What I mean is that Zzt'dri would have been noted in the poster as Elf (Drow). I don't believe Zzt'dri's gender was unknown (or at least not as conspicuously unknown) either.

So either Vaarsuvius is a known associate of Nale's, or there is a third Elf who wasn't a Drow and was.

EDIT: Pompey isn't an Elf.

[gibbo88]

I can't remember exactly, but was Hilgya with Nale and Co. when they were taken to jail after the dungeon of Durokan? Because they actually all made it to the jail that time didn't they? As opposed to the Roy's sister debacle. Also explains why the elf wizard is on there and not the gnome druid.

[Ichneumon]

What I mean is that Zzt'dri would have been noted in the poster as Elf (Drow). I don't believe Zzt'dri's gender was unknown (or at least not as conspicuously unknown) either.

So either Vaarsuvius is a known associate of Nale's, or there is a third Elf who wasn't a Drow and was.

EDIT: Pompey isn't an Elf.

Well, this is assuming those that made the posters KNOW the different elf subtypes and can keep them apart, which they can't, else they wouldn't say "subtype unknown".

[Athaniar]

I am pretty sure they were referring to Pompey.
But why would Yikyik be listed as an associate, then? No, I'd say it's Zz'dtri they're talking about. Perhaps there aren't many drow in those parts of the world?

[Nevadie]

Well we can establish a time-line point here by the fact that it says Yikyik(the first kolbold) and not Yokyok (the second kolbold). So right there we know it wasn't Pompey. So we know this poster was put out before Dungeons of Dorukan. (Baring the poster maker getting confused about which kolbold is which anyway, they do all look the same.)

Has for why it says Unknown elf subtype? Ether one of two reasons, maybe both.

1. Not EVERYONE knows what a drow is. MOST people on this world dont have a Monster Manual, or extensive player knowledge. Most people also dont find a need to learn of every one of the hundreds of elf subtypes.
or
2. "Drow" might be copyrighted, so it might be just easier to say "unknown". Also could be seen has a play on said copyright.

Also, at no point I've seen in this story does it say that Zzd'tri is a Drow, all it say's is that he is a Dark Elf, Who says all Dark Elves have to be Drow? :P

[Kaytara]

These posters are likely based off random eyewitness reports. If different people reported Zzd'tri and Pompey (with whom it may not readily apparent that he's only half-elf) and also saw Vaarsuvius somewhere in the mix without knowing for sure what team V's on, the person making the posters might have just decided "Screw it, I'll just say 'gender and subtype unknown'" rather than listing for a drow in green robes, an elf with purple hair in red robes, or an elf with red hair and purple robes.

[factotum]

I'm more inclined to the belief that the poster is referring to Zz'dtri--Nale wasn't associated with Pompey for long enough for it to refer to him, IMHO, whereas it's entirely possible his association with the drow goes back years. The plot reason for the "unknown subtype" is obviously so they can confuse V with Zz'dtri and kidnap him as well, of course.

[Trixie]

Except Zz'dtri's gender was well known, even if the subtype might elude some less knowledgeable surfacers.

So, either we miss a detail here, or execution of this comic fell flat.

[Harr]

These posters are likely based off random eyewitness reports.

Yep. Fairly silly to speculate that every single person in the command structure that wants Elan captured has actually seen the whole of the Linear guild up close and in person. Otherwise, you know, they'd have already been caught :smallwink:

Far more likely that the poster is based mostly on information gathered from victims and people who didn't get a close look. We know from Elan's past schemes that he likes to be up close and in the middle of the drama, which would account for his face being well-known, but the other LG members generally stay in the background, especially Zzd'tri.

Also, I may be wrong but I'm fairly sure this should have been posted in the strip discussion thread.

[Kish]

I would guess the poster is based on information from when Nale was forming his first Linear Guild. Sabine, Thog, Yikyik...Still looking for mirrors for Durkon and Vaarsuvius. So he knew he wanted to recruit an elven wizard of unknown subtype, and that was all, at the time.

[hewhosaysfish]

I support the theory that Zz'dtri's details cannot be disclosed "For legal reasons." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0065.html):smallwink:

[Spiky]

Except Zz'dtri's gender was well known, even if the subtype might elude some less knowledgeable surfacers.

So, either we miss a detail here, or execution of this comic fell flat.
To add onto Kaytara's comments...
Very easily could be the Empress knows/saw Nale and his closest companions, but not the others, just heard witnesses say he was "also with an elf".

Many ways to plot that out, Z certainly didn't speak much. If he's sitting in a corner in the dark, you aren't going to be able to determine anything.

Here's an easy scenario that fits the Guild, the poster, and the Giant:
The Guild is in town, searching for some nefarious task from an evil local ruler. Yikyik probably kills a guard or 2 around the palace, just because, which becomes a problem to overcome for Nale. He manages to cut a deal to do whatever. Yikyik and Z never come into palace, never meet the Empress. Only Nale, Sabine, Thog are in the meetings with her. Thog as Nale's right hand half-orc as show of capability, Sabine in whatever guise seems appropriate. They finish the task, win approval of the Empress despite early issues. Then either Sabine becomes the Empress' consort's lover, or Nale becomes Empress' lover, or both. They steal something of great value, leave trail of guards (maybe even kill the consort), and disappear.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

2. "Drow" might be copyrighted, so it might be just easier to say "unknown". Also could be seen has a play on said copyright.
Drow is open game content. (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/monstersEtoF.html#drow-elf) Zz’dtri's “legal trouble” was due to him being a parody of a specific drow.


Except Zz'dtri's gender was well known, even if the subtype might elude some less knowledgeable surfacers.
His gender was well known to people that got a clear look at him. We have no idea how knowledge of how anyone on that poster became known as an associate of Nale. There’s a good chance no one ever actually saw Zz’dtri. What if the elf wizard is only known to be an associate because several witnesses simply heard Nale and Sabine talking about “seeing what our elf wizard friend is up to,” or something similar?

[TheYoungKing]

Its updated after Cliffport. You know, when Nale did a crazy criminal murder scheme that had to have attracted attention, especially as Cliffport is a big trade city.

Yik-Yik is still Yik-Yik because they assume he stayed the same. Even the Order was confused. Accounts of his death may or may not be true. Possible ruse, as he was also unseen after Nale escaped DoD.

Pompey looked just as gender-indeterminate as V (okay, not quite so much) and a Half-Elf can pass for any of a dozen Elf subtypes to the casual observer, except, y'know Drow. (Nale has to be told he's Half-Elf... and male.)

The druid was never actually seen in the same place as the rest of the Linear Guild, hence his exclusion.

It doesn't make any sense for V to be confused with Zz'dtri. The scimitars would definitely be mentioned in any bounty thing.... and the whole Dark Elf thing is glaringlyobvious.....

[Ozymandias9]

Linear Guild has switched from a drow wizard to a half elf wizard to no wizard. Its understandable that they might be confused on that subject. Though the gender is harder to justify.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Its updated after Greysky City.
First, you’re thinking of Cliffport.

Second, I think Cliffport is a bit outside the Empress of Blood’s jurisdiction.

[TheYoungKing]

First, you’re thinking of Cliffport.

Second, I think Cliffport is a bit outside the Empress of Blood’s jurisdiction.


Yes, I am. Apologies.

And yes, it is. But not outside of "lands where you hear about adventurers."

That crazy scheme of Nale's and his arrest? going to make the rounds.

[Tompy]

Just made an account (been reading here for a while, never done anything until now) to point something out.


Also, at no point I've seen in this story does it say that Zzd'tri is a Drow, all it say's is that he is a Dark Elf, Who says all Dark Elves have to be Drow? :P

This is wrong... I just ended up stumbling over this:

Clicky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0070.html)

I'm guessing an elf is pretty good at knowing what type another elf is.

Not sure how that will change things but there you have it.

[ThePhantasm]

As this thread shows, there are tons of different explanations. Its not really that big a deal - the two lizard guys don't seem that bright anyways.

[Optimystik]

This bugs me. And Zzt'dri wouldn't be "subtype unknown", since he's obviously Drow.

Just wanted to point out that we haven't seen Zz'dtri walking around any towns. Many drow hide their true nature on the surface. So the fact that he's "obviously Drow" in a dungeon is not definitive proof of anything.

[Haggis]

For all we know he teamed up/hired a third elf wizard and kobold. The chain of command assume it's yikyik, but get confused by conflating reports of the wizard.

[Pyron]

I would guess the poster is based on information from when Nale was forming his first Linear Guild. Sabine, Thog, Yikyik...Still looking for mirrors for Durkon and Vaarsuvius.

I have to wonder about this. If the Linear Guild didn't meet the Order until #43, then how can Nale even think about finding opposites for Durkon and Vaarsuvius?

[Kish]

What, you missed the fact that they were looking for the Order, and Nale's claim that their meeting was just coincidental was a lie? :smallconfused:

[Pyron]

What, you missed the fact that they were looking for the Order, and Nale's claim that their meeting was just coincidental was a lie? :smallconfused:

Actually, they were hired by Xykon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0023.html) to kill the order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html). Not to mention, Nale's original purpose in Durokan's Dungeon was to locate the Sigil Amulet.

Unless, ofcourse, I am missing something. If that's the case, then where I am missing it?

[Kish]

I don't know where you're missing it. Hired by Xykon to kill the Order, check. Looking for the Order (to kill them for Xykon), check.

Therefore supposed to be completely unprepared for meeting the Order, despite Nale saying in #252 that he's invested a lot of time and energy into the "Evil Opposites" theme? What does the Order and the Linear Guild only actually meeting in #43 have to do with it?

[Pyron]

Therefore supposed to be completely unprepared for meeting the Order, despite Nale saying in #252 that he's invested a lot of time and energy into the "Evil Opposites" theme?

Thank you for point out #252. I was missing that part.

However, I believe that Nale's time and energy in reference to the second roster, after he's been defeated by the Order. At that point, he already recruited Leeky and YokYok(??). This means Nale could have spend a lot of energy just looking for them.


What does the Order and the Linear Guild only actually meeting in #43 have to do with it?

Because, I have no idea how the Linear Guild even knew the Order existed before then. He took the time to compare back stories with Elan., which suggest he was unprepared.

Also, in Origin of the PCs
The Order was only established 2-3 days prior to the comic #001. Before that, it'd didn't even exist. I don't see how can Nale even put this team together, with an evil opposite theme in mind, in that short amount of time.

[Kish]

Because, I have no idea how the Linear Guild even knew the Order existed before then.

Xykon hired them to kill the Order. Of course they knew the Order existed.

He took the time to compare back stories with Elan., which suggest he was unprepared.

No, it suggests he was lying, in keeping with every other lie he'd told the Order to make them think it was just a coincidence that he and his group of entirely coincidental bizarro-twins of theirs just happened to run into them in the same dungeon.

[Conuly]

They've heard Nale associates with both the Drow and with Pompey. They can't figure out what sort of elf that is based upon conflicting reports of those two, so they called the elf "subtype unknown".

[Pyron]

Xykon hired them to kill the Order. Of course they knew the Order existed.

On the Origin of PCs spoilers
The Order did even exist up until four days prior to #43.

You're telling me in the course of those few days, Nale was able to:

- Signed on as one of Xykon's mercenaries with the goal to steal the Amulet.
- Recruit everyone for his party with an evil opposite theme in mind.
- Travel all the way to Western Continent (with Thog, Sabine, etc) to commit those crimes listed on the Blood Empress' wanted poster.
- Travel all the way back to the Northern Continent to finally go after his brother's team?


:smallconfused:

[Kish]

On the Origin of PCs spoilers
The Order did even exist up until four days prior to #43.

You're telling me in the course of those few days, Nale was able to:

- Signed on as one of Xykon's mercenaries with the goal to steal the Amulet.
- Recruit everyone for his party with an evil opposite theme in mind.
- Travel all the way to Western Continent (with Thog, Sabine, etc) to commit those crimes listed on the Blood Empress' wanted poster.
- Travel all the way back to the Northern Continent to finally go after his brother's team?


:smallconfused:
I'll answer that if you tell me where you're getting that there have been only four days between the Order forming in OtOoPCs, and strip #43. :smalltongue: Until then, I'll just note that we don't know where the Empress of Blood got her information on Nale, Zz'dtri was a Transmutation specialist high enough level to cast at least sixth-level spells, and Rich largely ignores caster level limits on number of being transported for teleportation, so I doubt the Linear Guild in its first incarnation spent a great deal of time in travel. My model goes, rather, like this:
Unknown Time: Nale knows about his brother Elan, knows in his fourth-wall-breaking way that he's an Evil Opposite, and is the leader of a two-thirds-formed group designed to mirror the Order. He is looking for a mirror for Vaarsuvius. This information makes it way in the general direction of what may, or may not, yet be known as the Empire of Blood. Nale may be recruiting anywhere in the world at this point.
Unknown Time Later: Nale's fully formed group is hired by Xykon, which conveniently gives Nale an excuse to rampage through the dungeon where the amulet he wants is located. This is probably, but not guaranteed to be, when Nale is near the Dungeon of Dorukan.
Strip #43: He meets the Order and pretends not to have known about them, along with pretending to have been sent there by a wise and benevolent king.

[Tira-chan]

I really don't see why people would be able to easily tell Z's gender from looking at him, since he's essentially a recolored V. Nale refers to him as male at his introduction, so there wouldn't be any questions about it, but it wouldn't be obvious to a random observer.

While it's likely conflating reports led to confusion about what exactly the elf looked like, it's also worth pointing out that he's a decently high level transmuter. It wouldn't be unlikely for him to use Alter Self or something, since most drow tend to face pretty fierce discrimination. If he'd occasionally made himself look like a normal elf, and switched back to being a drow in combat or something, it'd probably confuse the issue even more.

[Cogidubnus]

I know this has been said before, but it seems glaringly obvious and seems to be frequently passed off. How many people, with 1 rank of Commoner, have any knowledge (dungeoneering) ranks that would allow them to identify a Drow? More probable they saw pointy ears and magic and went "elf!" Also, most innocents unfortunate enough to be close enough to get a good look at the linear guild tend to end up dead. People get confused, especially when running for their lives. Also, the question this asks is slightly strange. The whole plot is clearly mistaken identity. We'll find out WHY that mistake's been made. I'm just glad for something to be happening.

[NerfTW]

The poster contains information from BEFORE Nale left for the amulet. He commited crimes there, they don't care about things he did on another continent later.

Hilgya joined up with them in the dungeon. She wasn't a long term member. She says this during her time with Durkon. She only hooked up with them to steal the amulet for Loki. Therefore, she wouldn't be listed on a poster that lists crimes committed on another continent.

The elf reference is referring to Zzdrititsdkladf... uh, the drow. It's not unbelievable that they simply didn't know what a Drow is, seeing as it's supposed to be a mysterious race.

[factotum]

I'll answer that if you tell me where you're getting that there have been only four days between the Order forming in OtOoPCs, and strip #43.

The last segment of OtOoPCs is labelled "Yesterday" (e.g. the day before the first on-line strip), and it starts with the rest of the Order waiting for Belkar to join them; it also includes the team's first fight together. Therefore we can assume they reached the Dungeon only the day after they formed. There's no evidence that they LEFT the dungeon at any point between entering it and strip #120. I think it's therefore up to YOU to prove that it took the Order more than a few days to fight their way down to the level where they encountered the Linear Guild--there's no in-comic evidence for that being a long time!

[Procyonpi]

This bugs me. And Zzt'dri wouldn't be "subtype unknown", since he's obviously Drow.

Yah know, most people in the OOTS world haven't read the monster manual, (or the works of R.A. Salvator), and therefore would have no clue what drow are.

[Kish]

I think it's therefore up to YOU to prove that it took the Order more than a few days to fight their way down to the level where they encountered the Linear Guild--there's no in-comic evidence for that being a long time!
If you can quote my making any statement about the amount of in-comic time between the Order's formation in OtOoPCs and strip #43, I'll either support it or retract it. Promise. "Only four days" is a very specific claim. I would blink the same way if the person I was responding to had said, "Two days," "Two weeks," or, "Six months." Rich usually handwaves time passing, and so should we. The Order got to where they met the Linear Guild at the speed of plot, and any information that moved between the Dungeon of Dorukan area and the Empire of Blood did so at the speed of plot.

^Still think you should add Celia to that sig.

[TheYoungKing]

Yah know, most people in the OOTS world haven't read the monster manual, (or the works of R.A. Salvator), and therefore would have no clue what drow are.

But by having eyes, they can say "elf, black as coal". Even creatures with darkvision can see a difference.

Compare the difference between a Half-Elf, Wood Elf or Gray Elf. Then compare them to a Dark Elf.

Z doesn't make sense. The poster refers to Pompey.

[Pyron]

If you can quote my making any statement about the amount of in-comic time between the Order's formation in OtOoPCs and strip #43, I'll either support it or retract it. Promise. "Only four days" is a very specific claim. I would blink the same way if the person I was responding to had said, "Two days," "Two weeks," or, "Six months."

It's a claim that's at least supposed by the comic. Note between Strip #1 and #43; the order camped for the night twice. Add the two days in OtOotPC. That gives the four day claim (give or take a few days).


Rich usually handwaves time passing, and so should we. The Order got to where they met the Linear Guild at the speed of plot, and any information that moved between the Dungeon of Dorukan area and the Empire of Blood did so at the speed of plot.

Rich also takes care to mention any significant time passing that might not be apparent otherwise. The passage of time was mentioned when they cleaned out the dragon's cave, between Roy's death and the follow up on the Azurite Refuges and Resistance, their treks in the desert... I could go on.

Factotum nailed it - there is no evidence for the Order being in the dungeon for a long time. At least, not long enough for Nale to go to the ends of the world and recruit a team specifically tailored to counter the Order (that he had no idea existed) and then enlist as one of Xykon's mercenaries afterwards.

[wrybread]

Yeesh, it's just rule of plot, people! This way V and Elan both get taken, which is going to make for a more interesting storyline...why V's being mistaken for Zz'dtri (or maybe Pompey, it really doesn't matter all that much) is just details that you can explain a dozen viable ways.

[NerfTW]

Z doesn't make sense. The poster refers to Pompey.

That makes no sense at all. Why on earth would there be a wanted poster discussing petty crimes on a completely different continent?

Look, it's Z. They left out a description of him to allow them to mistake V for one of Nale's companions. It's not that unreasonable to think that they only know he works with an elf, but not that it's a drow. Sabine isn't listed as being dark skinned.

In fact, I bet when they do bring them in, V is recognized as not being the elf they're looking for.

edit- Oh, and Yikyik was the first kobold, not the second. Therefore, it's clearly referring to the team prior to leaving the continent. At which point Hilgya hadn't joined. It makes perfect sense.

[TheYoungKing]

That makes no sense at all. Why on earth would there be a wanted poster discussing petty crimes on a completely different continent?

Petty crimes?

We're talking a full on serial killing spree, complete with crazy manufactured occult themes.

Not exactly petty, and definitely rumor worthy.

And again, the idea that Dark Elf wouldn't be mentioned is ridiculous. Especially as Z is the ONLY one we've seen.


edit- Oh, and Yikyik was the first kobold, not the second. Therefore, it's clearly referring to the team prior to leaving the continent. At which point Hilgya hadn't joined. It makes perfect sense.

Because they are going to notice a difference the Order had to be told about. And one vowel difference.

[Rotipher]

It's also possible that Nale had worked with another Evil elf before Z'z-wha tsit, as he's not got a very good track record of retaining followers other than Thog and Sabine. That elf might've died, quit, or whatever some time ago, and the drow was recruited to round out the "evil opposites" roster. The creators of the wanted poster would be unsure as to which sort of elf is working with Nale at present, if that's the case, without Pompey being a factor at all.

Alternately, it's possible that the inclusion of an unknown elf on Nale's list of associates doesn't come from eyewitness accounts. Perhaps someone who works for the Empress located the LG's abandoned campsite, and determined that one of the people there had left behind some elf-sized footprints. This minor detail was tacked onto some previously-obtained information on Nale's other companions, just for completeness's sake.

[SPoD]

And again, the idea that Dark Elf wouldn't be mentioned is ridiculous. Especially as Z is the ONLY one we've seen.

This actually undercuts your theory. The fact that Z is the only drow we have seen makes it MORE likely that the witness who reported it would not know what a drow was if they were looking it right in the face, not less likely.

Also, keep in mind that we know for a fact that there are dark-skinned surface elves; the Team Peregrine Commander, for one. Take a dark-skinned surface elf, maybe put a hood over his hair, and have him stand in the shadows. Are you saying that it is absolutely impossible that someone who has never seen a drow before could think it was any other type of elf?

And that doesn't even take into consideration the fact that, as a Transmuter, Z could very well use spells to alter his appearance when walking around in cities. We've only ever seen him in a dungeon.

Look, the obvious reason why its "subtype unknown" is because without that, there's no way V gets mistaken for Z. So, given that it is not impossible for there to be confusion about what a drow, why can't we just write it off and forget about it? Why does it matter so much?

[derfenrirwolv]

Look, the obvious reason why its "subtype unknown" is because without that, there's no way V gets mistaken for Z. So, given that it is not impossible for there to be confusion about what a drow, why can't we just write it off and forget about it? Why does it matter so much?

I don't think thats the case... or rather the author isn't forced to appeal to pure story forces.

From 4,000 miles away in the empire of blood , The empress receives reports that nale is working with the elf we know as zzdrizt, obviously a drow.

The empress later hears of the incident in cliffport, where he is working with a light skinned half elf wizard.

So, in light of these conflicting rumors about the elven wizard working with nale, she puts down "unknown" on the wanted poster. She doesn't strike me as the type to care if an innocent elf or two gets turned up with nale.

[Procyonpi]

Honestly, I don't think it maters which of Nale's Elves the poster is talking about. The main point is that have a band of Evil adventurers that look like you can cause problems.

[Herald Alberich]

I don't think thats the case... or rather the author isn't forced to appeal to pure story forces.

He hasn't. This thread has come up with half a dozen plausible explanations for the (subtype unknown) note. The point (as I see it) is that it's not really important which of them is true, just that it's not a plot hole for the note to be there.

If we get some more info on when that wanted poster was produced, then the speculations (Pompey, Zz'dtri [with/without Alter Self], some other elf, etc.) might bear some more fruit.

[Nimrod's Son]

And again, the idea that Dark Elf wouldn't be mentioned is ridiculous. Especially as Z is the ONLY one we've seen.
...Besides these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0087.html) two (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html), that is.

[magic9mushroom]

Yep. Fairly silly to speculate that every single person in the command structure that wants Elan captured has actually seen the whole of the Linear guild up close and in person. Otherwise, you know, they'd have already been caught :smallwink:

Far more likely that the poster is based mostly on information gathered from victims and people who didn't get a close look. We know from Elan's past schemes that he likes to be up close and in the middle of the drama, which would account for his face being well-known, but the other LG members generally stay in the background, especially Zzd'tri.

Also, I may be wrong but I'm fairly sure this should have been posted in the strip discussion thread.

I assume you meant Nale when you said Elan. :smalltongue:


I know this has been said before, but it seems glaringly obvious and seems to be frequently passed off. How many people, with 1 rank of Commoner, have any knowledge (dungeoneering) ranks that would allow them to identify a Drow? More probable they saw pointy ears and magic and went "elf!" Also, most innocents unfortunate enough to be close enough to get a good look at the linear guild tend to end up dead. People get confused, especially when running for their lives. Also, the question this asks is slightly strange. The whole plot is clearly mistaken identity. We'll find out WHY that mistake's been made. I'm just glad for something to be happening.

It takes a grand total of 1 rank in Knowledge (local) to be able to identify a Drow on sight.

[RMcMurtry]

For all the speculation, the simplest answer is that Z routinely cast alter self to enter towns and interact with their inhabitants, and wasn't consistent with his disguises other than "elf". It's a second level spell in his speciality, lasting 10 minutes per level. If he was doing that, there's no reason to choose the same elf subtype and gender each time. So the wanted poster goes out with gender and subtype undetermined, because the Empress couldn't be sure how Z would appear when the bounty hunters caught up with them. Given Z's power--and he was winning against V when the magical knights...er, lawyers came for him--there's no reason, if the poster is more recent, for the Empress to not believe that a report of Pompey was simply Z in a new disguise.

[factotum]

It takes a grand total of 1 rank in Knowledge (local) to be able to identify a Drow on sight.

Assuming you get a clear look at the Drow, and that he isn't disguising himself, and of course assuming that you're not a first-level commoner who has better things to use skill points on than Knowledge (Local). And you're also assuming that knowledge of the existence of Drow is an really basic question, whereas it might actually be really tough and thus not necessarily knowable with a single skill rank.

[magic9mushroom]

Assuming you get a clear look at the Drow, and that he isn't disguising himself, and of course assuming that you're not a first-level commoner who has better things to use skill points on than Knowledge (Local).

True enough, I guess.


And you're also assuming that knowledge of the existence of Drow is an really basic question, whereas it might actually be really tough and thus not necessarily knowable with a single skill rank.

No, by the rules, identifying a monster takes a Knowledge check of DC 10 + monster's HD.

Humanoids use Knowledge (local), and Drow are a 1-HD Humanoid.

It's a DC 11 Knowledge (local) check to be able to recognise what a Drow is and one useful piece of information about it.

[Kish]

Unless Rich wanted to make one of his "silly rule" jokes about Knowledge: Local (Sandsedge) identifying drow because it doesn't say it doesn't, I would expect that to require a rank in Knowledge: Local (Underdark). How many random nonadventurers aboveground are likely to have that Knowledge, I'll leave as an exercise for the reader.

[TheYoungKing]

Doesn't matter if you can identify them by knowledge. You can SEE them.

A Dark Elf is a world away from even a dark-skinned surface Elf.

Would you say Buggy Lou would simply be called "Monstrous Humanoid, subtype unknown" simply because they didn't have knowledge of exactly what he is?

[Kish]

Doesn't matter if you can identify them by knowledge. You can SEE them.

A Dark Elf is a world away from even a dark-skinned surface Elf.

Would you say Bugsy Joe would simply be called "Monstrous Humanoid, subtype unknown" simply because they didn't have knowledge of exactly what he is?
I'm going to guess you mean Buggy Lou, 'cause if you don't I have no clue who you're talking about.

If you mean Buggy Lou: Yes, he would, if he wasn't just called "Eww!" What, do you know what he was more specifically than some kind of humanoid insect who was a slaver? 'Cause I sure don't.

As far as physical differences go, a dark elf looks like an elf with dark skin and white hair. Also two standard-issue scimitars in OotS. That's it. No extra eyes, no extra limbs, no palps. In Zz'dtri's case, specifically a photographic negative of Vaarsuvius.

[TheYoungKing]

I'm going to guess you mean Buggy Lou, 'cause if you don't I have no clue who you're talking about.

If you mean Buggy Lou: Yes, he would, if he wasn't just called "Eww!" What, do you know what he was more specifically than some kind of humanoid insect who was a slaver? 'Cause I sure don't.

As far as physical differences go, a dark elf looks like an elf with dark skin and white hair. Also two standard-issue scimitars in OotS. That's it. No extra eyes, no extra limbs, no palps. In Zz'dtri's case, specifically a photographic negative of Vaarsuvius.

And you don't think that such a weird coloration, completely different from any other mortal race and indeed, of elves specifically, would merit mention?

[Kish]

I still think "Nale hadn't recruited his first wizard at the time the information on the poster was current, and was known to be attempting to recruit a wizard based on Vaarsuvius' characteristics" fits best, m'self.

[TheYoungKing]

And I think the bounty is on-going, as part of regime change on the Western Continent.

[Tyrion L.]

There's one thing everyone is neglecting about Z.

He's a freaking wizard.

Assuming Illusion wasn't one of his barred schools, he could have cast an illusion to make himself look non-drow.

[Sholos]

There's one thing everyone is neglecting about Z.

He's a freaking wizard.

Assuming Illusion wasn't one of his barred schools, he could have cast an illusion to make himself look non-drow.

I'm pretty sure that at least a few people have posited that exact thought.

[Nevadie]

Doesn't matter if you can identify them by knowledge. You can SEE them.

A Dark Elf is a world away from even a dark-skinned surface Elf.

Would you say Buggy Lou would simply be called "Monstrous Humanoid, subtype unknown" simply because they didn't have knowledge of exactly what he is?

Ok well, lets flip the other way. Take Buggy Lou... and stick him in the middle of Azure City(Before Goblins). Then ask the level one commoners what kind of creature he is... My guess is its going to be along the lines of "I know he's a monsterous humanoid, But hell if i know what kind." But ask any commoner from sandsedge and he's going to be like "Oh ya, thats a ...., they raid the deserts all the time.

Lets switch it to drow, unless your from the underdark or have any knowledge of the underdark(If there is an underdark in this world), a level one commoner is going to see an elf with dark skin and think, well "I know he's an elf, but I have no idea what kind."

Has for Knowledge(Local)? If one of my player's tried to use Knowledge(Local) to identify a Drow, and his (Local) doesn't have any knowledge of Drow, he's not going to be able to do it, no matter how high he rolls. Unless it specifies Knowledge(Local-Underdark) or an area that deals with drow.

Because for me, a general Knowledge(Local) skill means the area your character is from. So if your from Landover and you try to use Knowledge(Local-Landover) to Identify a drow, guess what, there are no Drow in Landover, so its not going to work.

Knowledge: Dungeonering is the general "Identify Creature" Skill for me. 1 rank of that could Identify a drow, because while dungeonering, your very likely to run into drow or learn of them. Then again, how many commoners have ranks in that.

[TheYoungKing]

You would say he looks like a bug-man.

Not the huge variety to be found under "monstrous humanoid". That could mean Lizardfolk or Centaur or anything else. You would specify. "Monstrous humanoid, insect-like, subtype unknown."

Just as, if you saw a Drow, you wouldn't say "Elf, subtype unknown", which implies it could be any of the relatively normal subtypes. You would specify- black skin, white eyes.... even if you didn't know the actual subtype, you could say he is far different looking than any Elf. Far more than just leaving it vague on Grey Elf, Wood Elf, Painted Elf, Half-Elf.

Unless you think Commoners don't have eyes. Hell, they don't even need color vision to spot the difference.

[SPoD]

What answer are you looking for at this point? You keep throwing around statements like, "You would do THIS" or "You would do THAT." Maybe YOU would. They didn't.

Was that a mistake on the part of whoever wrote the poster? Absolutely. It was incredibly stupid, but at this point WHO CARES? Who cares if they were stupid, or if they ran out of room on the poster, or they just didn't get a good description in the first place. It's done. They'll find out their error soon enough when the bounty hunters bring in the wrong people. It doesn't meaningfully affect the story at this point.

I just don't understand what the point of arguing with every other person in this thread is. Unless you're trying to say that the author made an unforgivable error in the story, in which case I would venture that the author knew very well that it was a stretch for V to be mistaken for Z, but shrugged his shoulders and said, "Screw it". Or, will explain a later point by having someone say, "We got conflicting reports on the elf, I guess we should have found out more before we wrote up the poster," or something.

Either way, a plurality of people in this thread have expressed alternate explanations, so obviously it's plausible enough for them.

[Nevadie]

You would say he looks like a bug-man.

Not the huge variety to be found under "monstrous humanoid". That could mean Lizardfolk or Centaur or anything else. You would specify. "Monstrous humanoid, insect-like, subtype unknown."

Just as, if you saw a Drow, you wouldn't say "Elf, subtype unknown", which implies it could be any of the relatively normal subtypes. You would specify- black skin, white eyes.... even if you didn't know the actual subtype, you could say he is far different looking than any Elf. Far more than just leaving it vague on Grey Elf, Wood Elf, Painted Elf, Half-Elf.

Unless you think Commoners don't have eyes. Hell, they don't even need color vision to spot the difference.


Except for the fact that if it did say "Elf, Black skin, white hair" then the bounty hunter's wouldn't of confussed him for V.

I for one, dont think they are talking about Pompey OR Zz. I think the poster is refering to the wizard Nale used before Zz.

[Snake-Aes]

Except for the fact that if it did say "Elf, Black skin, white hair" then the bounty hunter's wouldn't of confussed him for V.

I for one, dont think they are talking about Pompey OR Zz. I think the poster is refering to the wizard Nale used before Zz.

Yup. The poster is from the Yikyik era, which means pre-dorukan's Linear Guild. Looks like Nale's been active for a year or two in the western lands, maybe he offed daddy?

[TheYoungKing]

Except for the fact that if it did say "Elf, Black skin, white hair" then the bounty hunter's wouldn't of confussed him for V.

Rule of Plot isn't an argument.


I for one, dont think they are talking about Pompey OR Zz. I think the poster is refering to the wizard Nale used before Zz.

And we should go on what is seen in the comic, rather than making up totally awesome backstories.

[SPoD]

Rule of Plot isn't an argument.

Yes, it is. It's the only argument that matters, actually.

[Nevadie]

Rule of Plot isn't an argument.

Accually in a Fantasy story, and most fictional stories, it is. At least for me it is, maybe not you. Sometime's its the best way to explain things. Like the guy above me said, its really the only arguement that matters in a fictional story. Better then the arguement that what happens in this story doesn't fit in DnD rules.


And we should go on what is seen in the comic, rather than making up totally awesome backstories.

Then what happen's when the facts aren't shown in the comic?
Even then, If your so adamant about what being shown in the comic has being what should be followed. Then the fact that the poster shows "Elf, Unknown subtype" and not "Elf, Black skin white hair" should be more consistant with there being another elf, and not Zz. The Linear Guld have a backstory, just cause Rich hasn't told us what it is yet, doesn't mean its not there, Nale didn't just appear at the door 10 seconds before the Oots opened it.


Yup. The poster is from the Yikyik era, which means pre-dorukan's Linear Guild. Looks like Nale's been active for a year or two in the western lands, maybe he offed daddy?

That's what I'm thinking, Cept nale didn't off his daddy, The reason he was in Durukon was... to get the amulet was to get revenge on his dad for some quasi imagined slight that nale saw, and his dad didn't.

[TheYoungKing]

Accually it a Fantasy story, and most fictional stories, it is.


Kind of done with the rest of this argument but... no.

NO.

Unequivocally, NO.

Because it "fits the plot" is never a good thing by itself. That should never be used as the reason in any form of story-telling. (Not writing, not a webcomic, not DMing, et cetera)

The idea that this is great or even to be expected in fantasy fiction is the reason for the SF/F ghetto.

If all a story has backing it up is authorial fiat about what should happen, then it isn't a story worth reading. Its Twilight.

[Nevadie]

Kind of done with the rest of this argument but... no.

NO.

Unequivocally, NO.

Because it "fits the plot" is never a good thing by itself. That should never be used as the reason in any form of story-telling. (Not writing, not a webcomic, not DMing, et cetera)

The idea that this is great or even to be expected in fantasy fiction is the reason for the SF/F ghetto.

If all a story has backing it up is authorial fiat about what should happen, then it isn't a story worth reading. Its Twilight.


Well its a damn good thing you dont write books then! I would expect such a book to become increasingly boring.

Has for Twilight, while i have no taste for it, and would personally never read the dribble. The story has captured the attention of millions of fans. So while you or I might not think its a good story, many do, and wether a book is good or not depends mostly on the reader.

[SPoD]

The fact that you don't personally like the explanations many people in this thread have provided does not mean that it s "author fiat", however. It just means you don't like them.

[Thursday]

And we should go on what is seen in the comic, rather than making up totally awesome backstories.


How do you know it isn't foreshadowing?

Just throwing that out there..

[derfenrirwolv]

Yes, it is. It's the only argument that matters, actually.

relying purely on the rule of plot is usually a sign of bad writing.

That isn't the case here.

The empress of blood is probably receiving conflicting reports about the Elven Wizards race because Nale has been working with multiple elven wizards. In light of conflicting reports, they just put down unknown.

[TheYoungKing]

The fact that you don't personally like the explanations many people in this thread have provided does not mean that it s "author fiat", however. It just means you don't like them.

If you'd notice, I'd dropped arguing that point and said that "Rule of Plot" shouldn't be used as an argument in a story.

And it shouldn't.

The "authorial fiat" was referring to the idea, among both some terrible writers and their fans, that plot is just something you graft on and that ultimately, does not need any reason except "I/he/she wrote it that way."

Plot is never a reason unto itself. If something happens in a story and the only explanation is "because of the plot"- quit reading that story.

[Thursday]

Plot is never a reason unto itself. If something happens in a story and the only explanation is "because of the plot"- quit reading that story.

When did that happen here though?

A tiny thing like a poster not having much information on someone. This has clearly happened for the sake of the plot, -but its plausible and it allows more cool plot to happen, which is fine by me.

[TheYoungKing]

When did that happen here though?

A tiny thing like a poster not having much information on someone, w has clearly happened for the sake of the plot, -but its plausible and it allows more cool plot to happen, which is fine by me.

It was from a poster's argument, not the comic. I enjoy the comic and feel that the Giant does not justify things through the POWER OF PLOT.

[Nevadie]

If you'd notice, I'd dropped arguing that point and said that "Rule of Plot" shouldn't be used as an argument in a story.

And it shouldn't.

The "authorial fiat" was referring to the idea, among both some terrible writers and their fans, that plot is just something you graft on and that ultimately, does not need any reason except "I/he/she wrote it that way."

Plot is never a reason unto itself. If something happens in a story and the only explanation is "because of the plot"- quit reading that story.

I think the reasoning was more, you won't agree with any of the reason's anyone is giving here, so what more can you say then "Rule of Plot"?

This instance wasen't "Rule of Plot" there are plenty of excuses people have given here to explain why it says what it says, but you seem unwilling to see any of them.

I'll throw this out there though, Why do YOU think it says Elf, Unknown subtype?

[TheYoungKing]

{Scrubbed}

[Nevadie]

{Scrubbed}

I didn't just POP in with that arguement, I argued with you for several posts prior, that maybe they the eye witnesses were just commoners and didn't know what a Drow was, and you argued with me that if they had eyes, they should know the difference between a dark elf and a regular elf.

Unless you lost track of that part?

Also, im interested in hearing your reasoning behind what the poster says, unless you dont have one and are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Not like it matters, this is the interent, you wont see my way and I wont see yours. So the whole arguement is moot.

[TheYoungKing]

As I've said here and elsewhere, I think that the bounty is based on him being the son and heir of Lord Tyrinar. (The T, being a big warlord, hailing from the Western Continent... I'll make the jump there and connect them)

Empress of Blood overthrows Lord T (no longer on the map) and in the tradition of the Western Continent, wants his head and his son's head on a pike. Puts out a bounty based on what she's heard of his adventures, adds treason because that is what you do. Bounty updated after reports hit from Cliffport about Nale's crazy occult murder-scheme.

[Thursday]

I enjoy the comic and feel that the Giant does not justify things through the POWER OF PLOT.

I agree!

But:

I didn't just POP in with that arguement, I argued with you for several posts prior, that maybe they the eye witnesses were just commoners and didn't know what a Drow was, and you argued with me that if they had eyes, they should know the difference between a dark elf and a regular

This remains true, -No one has used the rule of plot argument, there are reasons why it could have happened, -it isn't just an arbitrary plot device because (arguably or not) its plausible.

Otherwise anything at all that happens could be said to happen 'just because of plot'.

[Porthos]

Let's not forget that Zz'drti rarely speaks, and when he does, it's in a whisper. So if he never went around identifing himself, that could be another reason why there was a lack of a name on the Wanted Poster.

And, likewise, Pompey wasn't shy about introducing himself to people. Thus a name could be attached to him, like it was for Sabine and Yik-yik.