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weenie
2010-04-17, 12:27 PM
I was building a high level transmuter specialist for a very high powered campaign and I stumbled across this combo:

Use shapechange to transform in a creature with Regeneration
Cast Veil of Undeath(Sc) on yourself

You now take no damage at all from attacks that deal damage different from the one that overcomes the regeneration ability of the creature you shapechanged into.

So... I really wanted to use Veil of Undeath, as it is a great defensive spell, but I also wanted to shapechange into a Solar during battles, because of its DR and regeneration, but now I'm not really all that sure anymore, that this tactic is ok due to how it makes almost every form of attack except dispelling seem.. redundant?

Really, what would you do if you were the DM and someone tried to pull this little trick off?

Eldariel
2010-04-17, 12:30 PM
...ever heard the whole "Shapechange is overpowered"-thing? Yeah. That's precisely what happens: non-casters become slightly more trivial than they already were. Though subtracting from infinity doesn't really do much.

What I'd do as a DM? If it's not a high-optimization game, you aren't using Shapechange in the first place. If it's a high-optimization game, I'd shrug as that's among the less powerful things you could do; invulnerability is pretty simple to achieve and yours isn't even immune to dispelling. If you were using Supernatural Spell or such, I might care but as you are not...frankly, who cares? Btw, Trollbane from Dungeonscape makes Regeneration-based invulnerability somewhat unimpressive (it autopierces Reg).


Honestly, there's a dozen immunity comboes. Trollform+Favor of the Martyr, Delay Death+Beastland Ferocity (persist as desired), etc. It's not even hard. It's just magic.

Milskidasith
2010-04-17, 12:31 PM
You can do this a lot earlier with troll form, or some spell that changes you into a troll (can't recall the name, I think it's troll form).

Ernir
2010-04-17, 12:45 PM
Really, what would you do if you were the DM and someone tried to pull this little trick off?

First, I'd accept that nonspellcasting NPCs are more or less toast. There's stuff they can do, of course (see Trollbane...), but if they encounter the PCs without knowing what they are up against, they're just dead.

Foes that matter will pack Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction (the latter if the caster level is tricked out too). =/
Also, I'd make sure they use their Divination capabilities to figure out the holes in the invulnerability combos.

Jack_Simth
2010-04-17, 01:00 PM
I was building a high level transmuter specialist for a very high powered campaign and I stumbled across this combo:

Use shapechange to transform in a creature with Regeneration
Cast Veil of Undeath(Sc) on yourself

You now take no damage at all from attacks that deal damage different from the one that overcomes the regeneration ability of the creature you shapechanged into.

So... I really wanted to use Veil of Undeath, as it is a great defensive spell, but I also wanted to shapechange into a Solar during battles, because of its DR and regeneration, but now I'm not really all that sure anymore, that this tactic is ok due to how it makes almost every form of attack except dispelling seem.. redundant?

Really, what would you do if you were the DM and someone tried to pull this little trick off?
:rolleyes: don't forget to cast Energy Immunity (Sonic) when you Shapechange into a Crystal Troll (who is vulnerable only to Sonic damage).

As a DM? First thing I'd do is mention it - you're being cheesy. If you persist, you'd find yourself facing regular Disjunctions. Maybe researched Disjunctions, one level lower, that target a single five-foot square (AKA, just you). Alternately, I'd have the baddies use similar tactics.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-17, 01:16 PM
If I were DM I'd say troll's regeneration comes from drawing power from the positive energy planes and veil of undeath draws energy from the negative planes which is like using your stomach to mix lye and battery acid :smallamused:

goken04
2010-04-17, 02:02 PM
If I were DM I'd say troll's regeneration comes from drawing power from the positive energy planes and veil of undeath draws energy from the negative planes which is like using your stomach to mix lye and battery acid :smallamused:

Now that's just making things up in order to say No. If you're gonna say no, just say it. Don't try to make it appear RAI.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 02:44 PM
Given that regeneration only works for living creatures, it isn't too terribly far fetched. Granted, that doesn't cover other spells which grant immunity to nonlethal damage, such as Favor of the Martyr.

Emmerask
2010-04-17, 02:55 PM
Really, what would you do if you were the DM and someone tried to pull this little trick off?


Well fist you should be really quick to dodge the books I would throw at you.
After that and provided you are still conscious your character would need to survive the falling multidimensional cow of doom which always deals enough damage to kill your character and canīt be mitigated by anything (it also travels back in time and kills you there if you try the save-game trick).
Even Pun-Pun was killed by one :smalltongue:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-17, 02:59 PM
Well fist you should be really quick to dodge the books I would throw at you.
After that and provided you are still conscious your character would need to survive the falling multidimensional cow of doom which always deals enough damage to kill your character and canīt be mitigated by anything (it also travels back in time and kills you there if you try the save-game trick).
Even Pun-Pun was killed by one :smalltongue:

I'd use Wings of Cover to block the attack. The only way to bypass wings of cover is to make the cow a Reflex save but that means 1 out of 20 players survive the cow.

Eldariel
2010-04-17, 03:07 PM
Well fist you should be really quick to dodge the books I would throw at you.
After that and provided you are still conscious your character would need to survive the falling multidimensional cow of doom which always deals enough damage to kill your character and canīt be mitigated by anything (it also travels back in time and kills you there if you try the save-game trick).
Even Pun-Pun was killed by one :smalltongue:

You underestimate Pun-Pun. He usurped the DM long before the DM was born and now rules the game world from within said game world. It's a scary place.

Ernir
2010-04-17, 03:18 PM
I don't really get book-throwing over something like this.

If the game's power level can handle it, there's no problem. The starting steps of every combat now become a blur of immediate-action invulnerability counters, but the game can be played that way. We aren't at real TO here, this is just an ordinary high-level defensive combo which can be beaten by throwing out similarly optimized opponents.

If the game's power level can't handle it (as in, there is a party Fighter who would be left standing on the sideline saying "Hurf, why my sword never worky worky?"), I'd say "no, please don't do that".

2xMachina
2010-04-17, 03:30 PM
I don't think anyone ever thrown a book over stuff like this.

I always thought it was a jokey exaggeration.

Ernir
2010-04-17, 03:43 PM
I don't think anyone ever thrown a book over stuff like this.

I always thought it was a jokey exaggeration.

Replace "book-throwing" with "getting annoyed" in the sentence above, then. :smalltongue:

Emmerask
2010-04-17, 03:46 PM
I don't think anyone ever thrown a book over stuff like this.

I always thought it was a jokey exaggeration.

It is :smallwink:

Any sensible dm knows that books can be damaged during the hitting or landing process and therefore uses knifes :smallbiggrin:



I don't really get book-throwing over something like this.

If the game's power level can handle it, there's no problem. The starting steps of every combat now become a blur of immediate-action invulnerability counters, but the game can be played that way. We aren't at real TO here, this is just an ordinary high-level defensive combo which can be beaten by throwing out similarly optimized opponents.

If the game's power level can't handle it (as in, there is a party Fighter who would be left standing on the sideline saying "Hurf, why my sword never worky worky?"), I'd say "no, please don't do that".


Well if the campaign can handle such powerlevel or is even intended for it then obviously go for it ^^
My campaigns tend to be lower powered than that with only medium amount of optimization therefore I would say no to it ^^

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-17, 03:55 PM
Persist Power Feat (+8PP)
Overchannel Feat
Manifest Persist Timeless Body.

Need to be Level 21 unless you can reduce the cost, but you are now immune to everything ever thought up, ever.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-17, 03:57 PM
Persist Power Feat (+8PP)
Overchannel Feat
Manifest Persist Timeless Body.

Need to be Level 21 unless you can reduce the cost, but you are now immune to everything ever thought up, ever.

Until dispelled. But yeah that works pretty well.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-17, 03:59 PM
Until dispelled. But yeah that works pretty well.

Luckily, they have to know you're under the effects of Timeless Body so they can specifically target that for the dispelling, as you yourself are immune to the effects of dispel psionics. Also, Overchannel means its manifester level is up a bit, so it'll be more difficult to do.

:edit: and that's assuming you can target a power that's attached to a creature with the targetted mode, not sure if there's a solid ruling on that.

olentu
2010-04-17, 04:01 PM
Persist Power Feat (+8PP)
Overchannel Feat
Manifest Persist Timeless Body.

Need to be Level 21 unless you can reduce the cost, but you are now immune to everything ever thought up, ever.

Is not the persistent power feat from d20 modern or something like that.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-17, 04:04 PM
Is not the persistent power feat from d20 modern or something like that.

I'm honestly not sure. I know there is one that costs an additional 8PP because I made a character that used it which means I would have had to provide a source, but I can't remember where it came from.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 04:05 PM
Until dispelled. But yeah that works pretty well.

Nope. Dispels and such affect the creature. You ignore it.

It's also available before level 21. A Wilder, level 19, can do it with no shenanigans, just Wild Surge.

A Wilder, Level 18 can do it with a +2 CL/ML effect, such as a pearl of power (and a UMD check)

A psion/ardent 17 could do it with Overchannel, a Torc of power preservation, and a +4 CL/ML item.

In other words, when you get Timeless Body, you can have the capability to persist it, if you really want it.

Eldariel
2010-04-17, 04:05 PM
Is not the persistent power feat from d20 modern or something like that.

Officially, yes it is. But given that Persistent Spell exists, Persistent Power isn't much of a stretch, really.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-17, 04:06 PM
Nope. Dispels and such affect the creature. You ignore it.

It's also available before level 21. A Wilder, level 19, can do it with no shenanigans, just Wild Surge.

A Wilder, Level 18 can do it with a +2 CL/ML effect, such as a pearl of power (and a UMD check)

A psion/ardent 17 could do it with Overchannel, a Torc of power preservation, and a +4 CL/ML item.

In other words, when you get Timeless Body, you can have the capability to persist it, if you really want it.

Ah, me likey :smallbiggrin:

Starbuck_II
2010-04-17, 04:18 PM
A Wilder, Level 18 can do it with a +2 CL/ML effect, such as a pearl of power (and a UMD check)


Pearl of power is not a manifester bonus. Arcane or divine boost are not manifester boosts, at least not by RAW.
Maybe RAIW (Rules As I Want), but not Rules as Written.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-17, 04:23 PM
Pearl of power is not a manifester bonus. Arcane or divine boost are not manifester boosts, at least not by RAW.
Maybe RAIW (Rules As I Want), but not Rules as Written.
Arcane or Divine, no, but general caster level boosts are apparently usable by psionic characters, according to MiC or wherever that got ruled.

That said, pearls of power function as cognizance crystals for psionics, so I'm not sure what's going on here. Maybe he meant beads of karma or something?

Emmerask
2010-04-17, 04:24 PM
The your body ignores all helpful effects part might be not so good if endured for a longer period of time :smallbiggrin:

breathing, body chemistry/electricity/magic (in some odd races) come to mind ^^

Oh by strict raw this also means that you canīt perceive your surroundings in any way or store any memories or even think :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-04-17, 04:25 PM
Pearls of Power are ment to recall spells...

I think what he mentioned was an Orange IWIN Stone, from the DMG. It gives +1 CL.

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-17, 04:30 PM
The your body ignores all helpful effects part might be not so good if endured for a longer period of time :smallbiggrin:

breathing, body chemistry/electricity/magic (in some odd races) come to mind ^^

Oh by strict raw this also means that you canīt perceive your surroundings in any way or store any memories or even think :smallbiggrin:

No using science in D&D :smallwink:

The one that comes to my mind is that you'll start to stink because water/Prestidigitations all ounce off you :smalltongue:

absolmorph
2010-04-17, 05:05 PM
No using science in D&D :smallwink:

The one that comes to my mind is that you'll start to stink because water/Prestidigitations all ounce off you :smalltongue:
So would the things that make you stink :smallwink:

Kobold-Bard
2010-04-17, 05:10 PM
So would the things that make you stink :smallwink:

Truly this is the best reason to become a high level Psionic; to prevent yourself from stinking. Screw blowing up Demons and growing new demiplanes. Perma-shower, that's what to do it for :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-17, 07:20 PM
Pearl of power is not a manifester bonus. Arcane or divine boost are not manifester boosts, at least not by RAW.
Maybe RAIW (Rules As I Want), but not Rules as Written.

Meant Karma bead. And yes, Caster Level boosts ARE Manifester Boosts, by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y).


Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

In other words, if it could affect psionics, it does. This means that a Rod of Extend Spell could not apply (it allows you to use the feat, which is not included in the transparency)... However, a Rod of Absorption does function against powers, a mantle of Spell resistance also protects against powers, and a Karma bead boosts Manifester level, as well as caster level (though it still only reveals its function to divine spellcasters).

Starbuck_II
2010-04-17, 07:25 PM
In other words, if it could affect psionics, it does. This means that a Rod of Extend Spell could not apply (it allows you to use the feat, which is not included in the transparency)... However, a Rod of Absorption does function against powers, a mantle of Spell resistance also protects against powers, and a Karma bead boosts Manifester level, as well as caster level (though it still only reveals its function to divine spellcasters).

Again, I find that RAWI and not RAW. It doesn't potentially affect them.
Obviously Mantle works since SR=PR so that is obvious.

olentu
2010-04-17, 07:56 PM
Meant Karma bead. And yes, Caster Level boosts ARE Manifester Boosts, by RAW (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psionicsMagicTransparenc y).



In other words, if it could affect psionics, it does. This means that a Rod of Extend Spell could not apply (it allows you to use the feat, which is not included in the transparency)... However, a Rod of Absorption does function against powers, a mantle of Spell resistance also protects against powers, and a Karma bead boosts Manifester level, as well as caster level (though it still only reveals its function to divine spellcasters).

As I have said before any magic item could effect psionics in basically any way if one is allowing ways that are not listed as part of the magic item. So without some section of the transparency rules that say that the caster level/manefester level case is special it is not special and should be treated the same as any other possibility that the rules do not list.

Please note that I am talking just about the transparency section here so other things I will address when they are presented.