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rayne_dragon
2010-04-17, 08:24 PM
Our DM threw a monster at us that had an ability that caused the target to lose 3 healing surges when hit, then lose another 3 each round until the target passes a saving throw (which had an undisclosed penalty)... does anyone else think that this is too much for a party of characters level 10-11? Or am I just overreacting to it?

EDIT: I'd like to note that I'm personally put off by this as 4e is very specifically designed to not have save or die effects (which this bascially is) and that every piece of design advice I've seen sugests that monsters that take away party resources, specifically healing surges, is totally not cool. I'm okay with save or die in other editions, since that's part of the system and can be expected.

Kylarra
2010-04-17, 08:30 PM
That's pretty ridiculous imo. A good chance to lose half your surges in a single attack isn't pretty...

Anasazi
2010-04-17, 08:31 PM
Thats the type of effect you would see from something like a vampire, rather rare indeed. Overpowered... maybe, but less so if you got an extended rest after the fight. Was that effect in addition to an attack or was it a standard action? Also, what defense did the skill target?

Mando Knight
2010-04-17, 08:36 PM
...Yeah, that's beyond excessive. Bahamut can make you lose two. That power isn't balanced as a one-shot single-target attack with an accuracy penalty on a level 40 Solo. A Defender has about 9 or 10 surges to start with, more if they invest in Con. This attack takes out the Defender for the rest of the day in 3 to 5 turns with just its residual effect. Nothing else does that. Ever. It's essentially "Third failed saving throw: Target is Dead."

Asbestos
2010-04-17, 09:06 PM
Thats the type of effect you would see from something like a vampire, rather rare indeed.

Not even, vampires just Weaken (Save Ends). This ability is completely absurd.

Did the monster have any other ridiculous powers/defenses/whatever?

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-17, 09:09 PM
Just sounds like the standard "You can win this fight, guys! (Haha! Not Really!)" stuff you get in some computer games, really. The ol' interactive cutscene.

Perhaps you simply had to lose to progress the story? Couldn't say. If so, you are authorised to scowl at the Dm.

rayne_dragon
2010-04-17, 09:42 PM
It's my DM's version of Power Word Kill. Designed to be used in a fight where the party is almost entirely exhausted (we haven't been able to take a daily rest since 8 fights before this). Minor action apparently. We sort of lucked out in that he used it against the NPC dragon we had with us, but it killed her from full health (she was flying, so it was the fall that killed her). If we'd been really lucky he would have Power Word Blinded me instead (and I'm immune to it).

For anyone interested it's the Death Knight Sir Lebaum from the old Champions of Krynn video game that we're fighting. We were trying to flee, but the party got caught by an aurak draconian and two dragons (one red, one blue, but both only elites rather than solos) except for me, the shifty red wizard. The bad part is, if I'm not forced to flee I think my character has to yell at the party until we go back to kill the Death Knight. I'm pretty sure that given that everyone else is either a cleric, Solamnic Knight, or white robe wizard having the red robe, who borders on being evil, go back to face the Death Knight is going to force them to come with.

Kylarra
2010-04-17, 09:45 PM
Uh okay. A minor action that strips healing surges is really ridiculous...

Anasazi
2010-04-17, 09:46 PM
lol, no kidding, thats just mean. purple hand of fate there, which one of you pissed off the GM? lol

Mando Knight
2010-04-17, 09:53 PM
It's my DM's version of Power Word Kill. Designed to be used in a fight where the party is almost entirely exhausted (we haven't been able to take a daily rest since 8 fights before this).

Your DM has no sense of balance. 4 encounters in one day is pushing reasonable limits, 9 fights and a OHKO power at the end is grounds for DM-lynching.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 09:53 PM
Our DM threw a monster at us that had an ability that caused the target to lose 3 healing surges when hit, then lose another 3 each round until the target passes a saving throw (which had an undisclosed penalty)... does anyone else think that this is too much for a party of characters level 10-11? Or am I just overreacting to it?

As stated, Bahamut doesn't even do this. Especially as a Minor action. If it was anything less than a Daily ability on a monster, you each deserve to throw the MM at your DM. Twice.

Asbestos
2010-04-17, 10:12 PM
Is your NPC dragon-buddy a solo monster ripped straight from the MM? How large is your party? Who plays the NPC dragon?

rayne_dragon
2010-04-17, 10:37 PM
Is your NPC dragon-buddy a solo monster ripped straight from the MM? How large is your party? Who plays the NPC dragon?

NPC dragon is a heavily modified young adult silver dragon, level 12 with some wizard and cleric powers. Nice hp, can't seem to hit anything most of the time. Somehow I was the one who ended up running her, although it could have been anyone. Party is: A solamnic knight (a fighter/cleric hybrid with paladin's lay on hands and equipment proficiencies), an NPC solamnic knight (played by the same player as the invoker), an invoker, an avenger, two wizards, and a cleric. All level 11 now, although going into the fight only the avenger and I (one of the wizards) were 11th. The DM told us if the Death Knight would have targeted the avenger (who is the only one in the party that has no surges left at all), or one of the knights (of which the PC one has 8 surges left) if the dragon hadn't come out of her changed self form (she was out of surges, but would have died anyways), so it isn't like this is just an excuse to get rid of her.

We also have a few advantages over standard parties: orb of imposition isn't nerfed, we got to roll 8+d10 for stats (reroll all until happy), and the moons of magic are currently given both wizards +2 to attacks and damage (when we remember it) and two extra dailies.

Tequila Sunrise
2010-04-17, 10:38 PM
That's insane. It sounds like your DM wants a campaign reboot via TPK.

For the record: I don't even like the lose-one-surge powers. 4e did away with outright SoDs, but it seems some designers still want to bypass the hp economy.

Shadow_Elf
2010-04-17, 11:04 PM
Was the DM ruling that things affected by this power while at zero surges die? If so, then its a game-breaker, and certainly lynch-worthy. Otherwise, its just mean, but not entirely insurmountable, depends on the encounter. Also, did you get those surges back after saving?

Mando Knight
2010-04-17, 11:11 PM
As stated, Bahamut doesn't even do this. Especially as a Minor action.

For reference, Bahamut is the highest level solo officially statted out by WotC, and is one of the top 3 most brokenly overpowered monsters in an official splatbook. All three were made so on purpose, and are gods. To give anything a power that's beyond the power of Tiamat, Vecna, or Bahamut is insane.

Dacia Brabant
2010-04-17, 11:11 PM
Someone should tell your DM that 4th Edition is not 1st Edition. The whole point of 4e is that save-or-die is no longer in the D&D lexicon.

Asbestos
2010-04-17, 11:15 PM
NPC dragon is a heavily modified young adult silver dragon, level 12 with some wizard and cleric powers. Nice hp, can't seem to hit anything most of the time. Somehow I was the one who ended up running her, although it could have been anyone.
Phew, when I saw 'super monster' vs 'dragon npc' I thought we had some awful DMPC shenanigans going on.


Party is: A solamnic knight (a fighter/cleric hybrid with paladin's lay on hands and equipment proficiencies), an NPC solamnic knight (played by the same player as the invoker), an invoker, an avenger, two wizards, and a cleric. All level 11 now, although going into the fight only the avenger and I (one of the wizards) were 11th. The DM told us if the Death Knight would have targeted the avenger (who is the only one in the party that has no surges left at all), or one of the knights (of which the PC one has 8 surges left) if the dragon hadn't come out of her changed self form (she was out of surges, but would have died anyways), so it isn't like this is just an excuse to get rid of her.

We also have a few advantages over standard parties: orb of imposition isn't nerfed, we got to roll 8+d10 for stats (reroll all until happy), and the moons of magic are currently given both wizards +2 to attacks and damage (when we remember it) and two extra dailies.

Cripes, you've got a big party (when you count the NPCs). 1 Leader, 3 controllers, 1 striker, and 2 semi-defenders/leaders. Oh, and a Dragon. I'm not really sure how to class that. Brute/Controller/Leader?

What's the typical encounter for you guys? 8 regular monster, an army of minions, or is it primarily elites/solos? How easily do you go through them? I"m trying to get an idea for the other events surrounding this one particular super-solo.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 11:16 PM
Someone should tell your DM that 4th Edition is not 1st Edition. The whole point of 4e is that save-or-die is no longer in the D&D lexicon.

No it isn't, in all technicality. Sleep still exists, after all (there's a reason it's one of the few first level Dailies that sees use in the Epic tier).

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-17, 11:17 PM
No it isn't, in all technicality. Sleep still exists, after all (there's a reason it's one of the few first level Dailies that sees use in the Epic tier).

It's also a fair amount harder to actually kill something outright with a CdG once the padded sumo starts building up, though the damage certainly hurts.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 11:23 PM
It's also a fair amount harder to actually kill something outright with a CdG once the padded sumo starts building up, though the damage certainly hurts.

Doesn't Drowning still exist?

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-17, 11:25 PM
Doesn't Drowning still exist?

Unless you've got a monster-sized bucket filled and ready, you'd need some major cheese to get something set up before they make that save to wake up.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 11:26 PM
Unless you've got a monster-sized bucket filled and ready, you'd need some major cheese to get something set up before they make that save to wake up.

Just stuff a dwarf down their throat.

Mando Knight
2010-04-17, 11:29 PM
Unless you've got a monster-sized bucket filled and ready, you'd need some major cheese to get something set up before they make that save to wake up.

Throw an ocean at them. That tends to work.

Dacia Brabant
2010-04-17, 11:30 PM
No it isn't, in all technicality. Sleep still exists, after all (there's a reason it's one of the few first level Dailies that sees use in the Epic tier).

I said save-or-die, not save-or-lose; there's no equivalent to something like Finger of Death to my knowledge. But I take your point.


Just stuff a dwarf down their throat.

Har. If the suffocation doesn't kill them, the indigestion certainly will.

NEO|Phyte
2010-04-17, 11:31 PM
Just stuff a dwarf down their throat.

That's suffocation, not drowning. :smallwink:
Also, haven't looked at how 4e sleep works aside from being (save ends), wouldn't they wake up after getting their windpipe blocked by dwarf?

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-17, 11:34 PM
That's suffocation, not drowning. :smallwink:
Also, haven't looked at how 4e sleep works aside from being (save ends), wouldn't they wake up after getting their windpipe blocked by dwarf?

Only if it dealt damage. Solution: Grease, and easy on the hotsauce.

MCerberus
2010-04-18, 12:24 AM
Only if it dealt damage. Solution: Grease, and easy on the hotsauce.

I'm pretty sure that whatever you're trying to suffocate would die from the alcohol poisoning (vs fort, damage, effect: passed out drunk (save ends).

Mystic Muse
2010-04-18, 01:22 AM
Even if the DM gave you all 18s he should still be able to challenge you. I don't see why he resorted to this piece of utter crap.

I'm currently DMing a campaign where my player's stats are thus.
18
17
17
15
14
14

This is before any modifiers. If I can DM this kind of group and still challenge them your DM should be able to as well without resorting to that.

Although, to be fair, you guys shouldn't have gotten a dragon.

Even so, this ability is unfit for level 30s let alone people who are barely starting/aren't even at Paragon level.

rayne_dragon
2010-04-18, 01:30 AM
Shadow_Elf - if you lose a surge when you have none left you take damage equal to your surge value, our NPC had none, so she lost 390 hp, leaving her three hp from death. Saving did not restore her surges or hit points (I even rolled a 20 for her save).

Tequila Sunrise - I know he doesn't want a TPK game reset, since we already had one TPK (one which my wizard wasn't present for). That one was entirely the PCs fault. We made the mistake of attacking an entire enemy army in the middle of their base where everybody could see and come running to kill us... and we almost survived that too.



Cripes, you've got a big party (when you count the NPCs). 1 Leader, 3 controllers, 1 striker, and 2 semi-defenders/leaders. Oh, and a Dragon. I'm not really sure how to class that. Brute/Controller/Leader?

What's the typical encounter for you guys? 8 regular monster, an army of minions, or is it primarily elites/solos? How easily do you go through them? I"m trying to get an idea for the other events surrounding this one particular super-solo.

To be fair, the dragon is mostly a block of hit points that hits about 25% of the time for a pittance of damage compared to the party. The other NPC is two levels lower than the party. They help, but aren't quite as useful as a full party member.

I'm really not sure what we usually face off against. We'll face anywhere from four to a dozen monsters (not counting minions), many of which use class abilities against us, but don't take as long to kill as elites usually do. One of the fights before this encounter was about nine level 6 or 7 guys. We also tend to be able to blast through fights fairly easily most of the time, at least when we have dailies.

Mr. Super-solo also wasn't alone, he had six minions (two ghouls, two sivaks), a trio of skeletons, and an undead minotaur (a previous party member who died in an earlier TPK that was entirely the party's fault). Wall of Fire + Visions of Avarice actually took care of everything but the Death Knight.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-18, 01:34 AM
If he doesn't want a TPK game reset then why does this enemy have an ability that is the equivalent of a save or die as a minor action and gives a penalty to the saving throw.

Unless this is a once ever ability I don't see why this guy would have something like that. Heck, if this were a daily power it'd probably be a once ever power anyway.

This is not meant for your level. This is not meant for any level. This is like sending Vecna after level fives.

Tell your DM that if he does this to anybody else they are pretty much guaranteed dead. Also, show him that even Vecna, Bahamut and/or Tiamat don't have anything near this calibre. Tell him that save or dies don't exist in 4e for a reason.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-18, 03:00 AM
Our DM threw a monster at us that had an ability that caused the target to lose 3 healing surges when hit,

Well, on a 10th level character, that's more or less the equivalent of 60 ongoing damage. That's quite a bit more than would be reasonable at high epic, even.

Coidzor
2010-04-18, 03:45 AM
That one was entirely the PCs fault.

I believe they call this Stockholm Syndrome.

2xMachina
2010-04-18, 04:14 AM
Is it just me, or am I the only one who read it as:

lose 3 healing surges. Save, and get them back.

*only experience with 4e is forums, and there was something about Tomb of Horrors and Die, save ends.

The_Pyre
2010-04-18, 04:38 AM
I did, too. I was actually surprised it didn't mean that.

Telok
2010-04-18, 06:42 AM
So a major plot villan from a Dragonlance game unleashes a nasty power that wipes out an allied NPC that is on the high end of the party power scale.

It used to be that this was a sign of a GM crafting a good set of plot hooks around a recurring villan in the campaign. If my memory of the various novels and modules for Dragonlance is accurate (it's been about 10 years since me and the 'Lance last tangoed) this happened on a semi-regular basis.

It's usually just a sign that you aren't ready to face one of the main campaign baddies yet. Run or get whooped on and then come back later (and stronger) to avenge your fallen friends. Normal fantasy event here.

pingcode20
2010-04-18, 06:52 AM
That's sort of like establishing an NPC as a chessmaster by playing a game against the players and then randomly flicking their pieces off the board every so often.

Sure, you're showing them how impossible it is to beat the NPC, but the fundamental issue lies with the fact that you're blatantly cheating to do it.

Kylarra
2010-04-18, 09:29 AM
Uh yeah. I don't think lose 75-100% of your hp as a minor action because you're probably low on surges by battle 9 is anywhere remotely near fair...

rayne_dragon
2010-04-18, 09:46 AM
So a major plot villan from a Dragonlance game unleashes a nasty power that wipes out an allied NPC that is on the high end of the party power scale.

It used to be that this was a sign of a GM crafting a good set of plot hooks around a recurring villan in the campaign. If my memory of the various novels and modules for Dragonlance is accurate (it's been about 10 years since me and the 'Lance last tangoed) this happened on a semi-regular basis.

It's usually just a sign that you aren't ready to face one of the main campaign baddies yet. Run or get whooped on and then come back later (and stronger) to avenge your fallen friends. Normal fantasy event here.

Normally I'd agree with you, except that the DM admitted that he was considering targeting PCs with it. I also suspect that we're supposed to beat the Death Knight (as it is the only way to accomplish our current mission) and because the DM's trying to simulate the old computer game and it seems unlikely that the game would have thrown a villain against the party that they couldn't beat.

Kish
2010-04-18, 09:54 AM
the DM's trying to simulate the old computer game
That explains a great deal.

Sir Lebaum was probably the nastiest fight in the game, to be fair. However,
1) A 1ed game doesn't translate real well to 4ed.
2) I'd congratulate the DM on how well he simulated Lebaum's Power Word Kill, then point out to him that they took out save-or-dies by 3.5ed for a reason.
3) A computer game in which you're expected to reload if you get smashed doesn't translate real well to tabletop.

I would suggest pointing out these things to the DM and seeing if you can convince him to rebalance Lebaum for a more 4ed Tabletop level of nastiness.

Swordgleam
2010-04-18, 11:02 AM
That, or go all the way into vidoegame-y-ness for this one fight, and have some friendly NPCs do a ritual that's effectively a save game. "We're so invested in someone killing this bad guy that we'll keep a part of each of your souls in this jar here, and if you all die we'll bring you all back so you can try again."

tbarrie
2010-04-18, 12:02 PM
This attack takes out the Defender for the rest of the day in 3 to 5 turns with just its residual effect. Nothing else does that. Ever. It's essentially "Third failed saving throw: Target is Dead."

So in other words, in this one respect it's less nasty than the petrifying attacks of basilisks, medusae, and the like, which effectively kill the target on two failed saving throws.

Of course, those attacks generally have no lasting ill effects at all if you do make your save, whereas this one will take out a big chunk of the target's vitality even if they do escape alive. So yeah, it's a very powerful attack, and if the original poster's DM isn't aware of this, they should probably be informed. If they are already aware of this, then cool.

Yarrula
2010-04-18, 12:17 PM
The Battle Wight from the first monster manual drains a healing surge with every hit, and that's a plain level 9 soldier monster. I've run 4e games where my party was up against 5 or 6 of them and managed to survive.

In my opinion, the only unbalancing aspect of this draining power is the save part. I'd have changed it to a simple "Lose 3 surges on a hit". That's enough really. Maybe give the Death Knight a recharge roll on that power if you're feeling generous towards the players. 4e characters are pretty hardy and resurrection magic is cheap. Especially when you have that many characters in a group that can chip in on the cost.

Lamech
2010-04-18, 12:28 PM
So in other words, in this one respect it's less nasty than the petrifying attacks of basilisks, medusae, and the like, which effectively kill the target on two failed saving throws.

Of course, those attacks generally have no lasting ill effects at all if you do make your save, whereas this one will take out a big chunk of the target's vitality even if they do escape alive. So yeah, it's a very powerful attack, and if the original poster's DM isn't aware of this, they should probably be informed. If they are already aware of this, then cool.

The level 19 eye tryant has a second failed save die attack. It is half of the beholders at will attack. The other half could be a petrification ray or some such. So third save die isn't all that broken.

BUT, this is a lot worse since it eats three surges right off the bat and probably kill the person on the first or second failed save.

pasko77
2010-04-18, 02:34 PM
I don't understand the problem.

What a lot of guys here seems to forget, it is NOT dm vs. players.
Hint: if it was dm vs. players, the dm wins. :)

So, if the dm says: there is this particularly nasty monster, with this particularly nasty attack, roll with it. Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason in the story for this rule.

Maybe it is a "puzzle monster", i.e. you can't beat it without the right mcguffin.
Maybe it is "plot armor", i.e. you gotta lose to advance the story.

Or is it about "winning"? 'Cause you know, re-read carefully the lines above, it is not a competition. The dm is (should be) merely giving you a set of struggles for you to overcome. Nobody wins in a tpk, nobody loses if the characters win.

If you or your dm live this as a competition... that's the problem.

my 2 cents, Pasko

Reynard
2010-04-18, 02:36 PM
I don't understand the problem.

What a lot of guys here seems to forget, it is NOT dm vs. players.
Hint: if it was dm vs. players, the dm wins. :)

So, if the dm says: there is this particularly nasty monster, with this particularly nasty attack, roll with it. Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason in the story for this rule.

Maybe it is a "puzzle monster", i.e. you can't beat it without the right mcguffin.
Maybe it is "plot armor", i.e. you gotta lose to advance the story.

Maybe the DM doesn't know it isn't supposed to be DM vs Players.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-18, 02:39 PM
I don't understand the problem.

What a lot of guys here seems to forget, it is NOT dm vs. players.
Hint: if it was dm vs. players, the dm wins. :)

So, if the dm says: there is this particularly nasty monster, with this particularly nasty attack, roll with it. Maybe, just maybe, there is a reason in the story for this rule.

Maybe it is a "puzzle monster", i.e. you can't beat it without the right mcguffin.
Maybe it is "plot armor", i.e. you gotta lose to advance the story.

Or is it about "winning"? 'Cause you know, re-read carefully the lines above, it is not a competition. The dm is (should be) merely giving you a set of struggles for you to overcome. Nobody wins in a tpk, nobody loses if the characters win.

If you or your dm live this as a competition... that's the problem.

my 2 cents, Pasko

at level 11 my current character will have 14 healing surges.

after nine encounters without a reas I'll have used at least 5. I have nine left. I then lose 3 immediately and 3 on my next turn. I'm down to three surges. If those go then I have just my normal health left. It takes two turns after that and I'm dead as can be and that's if I somehow have max health. So, assuming I have a generous amount of surges left and all my HP I'm still dead in 5 turns if I don't save, which, with the undisclosed penalty I probably won't.

Swordgleam
2010-04-18, 02:40 PM
If you or your dm live this as a competition... that's the problem.


Some people play that way. As long as they're having fun, why not? It can be a fair competition without the DM going "rocks fall; everyone dies."

I'd argue that if the DM isn't trying to challenge the players, you're doing it wrong. Challenge means you can sometimes lose. No one wins in a TPK, but no one "wins" if the players auto-win every fight or don't face serious consequences if they lose.

There are many different, totally valid styles of play. Some of them involve boss fights with enemies that are stronger than gods and can kill a party member in three hits.

Kylarra
2010-04-18, 02:43 PM
Those of you comparing it to other attacks, keep in mind one thing. This is a minor action, so the monster in question can still move and attack normally while nailing 3 of your surges ongoing -3, and potentially could be dropping 3 "Power word:kill"s in a single round, depending on DM writeup.

pasko77
2010-04-18, 03:04 PM
I'd argue that if the DM isn't trying to challenge the players, you're doing it wrong. Challenge means you can sometimes lose. No one wins in a TPK, but no one "wins" if the players auto-win every fight or don't face serious consequences if they lose.


You are right, the dm should always challenge the players. But it does not mean it is DM vs. PC, it is further proof that the DM must limit themselves carefully to give PCs a chance.

As i read the topic, it is:
OP: i don't like how the DM is leading the game. Can I throw the MM to his face?
Average answer: yes, he is not respecting the rules.

now...
point 1: the dm does not need to follow the rules (also known as rule 0)
point 2: if the OP is unhappy with the dm's style, they obviously don't agree on how to play. The OP probbably thinks to a competition, while the DM or A) does not care about the competition and fudges rules B) is being a smartaxe to prove that he is "stronger"

there lies the problem. It is NOT a competition, since the dm must either limit themselves to give the PC a fair chance, or must provide a reason to a non-solvable puzzle.

I'll give u an example. I DM'd a game last thursday. In this game, PCs where dungeon crawling together with a NPC that I had the need to use for plot reasons. Now I don't need him anymore, so I ruled that in an encounter, a lucky blow from a monster cut his leg. So the NPC had to leave the party (not dead, he was healed, but not able to follow the group). Now, I'm really NOT expecting my players tell me "there are no leg cutting powers in d&d".

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-18, 03:07 PM
Those of you comparing it to other attacks, keep in mind one thing. This is a minor action, so the monster in question can still move and attack normally while nailing 3 of your surges ongoing -3, and potentially could be dropping 3 "Power word:kill"s in a single round, depending on DM writeup.

Yeah, which is why I said it shouldn't have been anything less than a daily power. Being able to spam that three times a round is even more deadly than having it just once.

Mando Knight
2010-04-18, 03:18 PM
So in other words, in this one respect it's less nasty than the petrifying attacks of basilisks, medusae, and the like, which effectively kill the target on two failed saving throws.

No, you can break out of the petrification via a relatively cheap ritual, and you automatically save at the end of the encounter for any save-ends petrification. This power makes you dead dead, not effectively dead.

nightwyrm
2010-04-18, 03:30 PM
Shadow_Elf - if you lose a surge when you have none left you take damage equal to your surge value, our NPC had none, so she lost 390 hp, leaving her three hp from death. Saving did not restore her surges or hit points (I even rolled a 20 for her save).


That's insane. Nothing in the MMs can hit you for 1/4 your total hp with every hit. Even HS attacks that continues to do damage to you after losing all HS (ie. drowning) only does damage equal to your level per round.

Kylarra
2010-04-18, 03:35 PM
That's insane. Nothing in the MMs can hit you for 1/4 your total hp with every hit. Even HS attacks that continues to do damage to you after losing all HS (ie. drowning) only does damage equal to your level per round.You mean 25-75% of your hp with no chance of being able to recover from it because you have no surges to burn to heal up again. :smalltongue:

pasko77
2010-04-18, 03:54 PM
Maybe the DM doesn't know it isn't supposed to be DM vs Players.

Yes! That's definately a possibility. An overcompetitive DM makes a bad DM.
Anyway the solution is the same. To understand the nature of roleplaying.

rayne_dragon
2010-04-18, 09:35 PM
You are right, the dm should always challenge the players. But it does not mean it is DM vs. PC, it is further proof that the DM must limit themselves carefully to give PCs a chance.

As i read the topic, it is:
OP: i don't like how the DM is leading the game. Can I throw the MM to his face?
Average answer: yes, he is not respecting the rules.

now...
point 1: the dm does not need to follow the rules (also known as rule 0)
point 2: if the OP is unhappy with the dm's style, they obviously don't agree on how to play. The OP probbably thinks to a competition, while the DM or A) does not care about the competition and fudges rules B) is being a smartaxe to prove that he is "stronger"

there lies the problem. It is NOT a competition, since the dm must either limit themselves to give the PC a fair chance, or must provide a reason to a non-solvable puzzle.

I'll give u an example. I DM'd a game last thursday. In this game, PCs where dungeon crawling together with a NPC that I had the need to use for plot reasons. Now I don't need him anymore, so I ruled that in an encounter, a lucky blow from a monster cut his leg. So the NPC had to leave the party (not dead, he was healed, but not able to follow the group). Now, I'm really NOT expecting my players tell me "there are no leg cutting powers in d&d".

As the original poster, I'd like to say that you've misconstrued my intent. I merely had a game where there was a power was used that I didn't feel was appropriate for a 4e game and was wondering if I was perhaps unfounded in my opinion. I don't want to throw the MM at him, that was someone else's suggestion. Nor do I view the game as a competition.

Two points as to your example:
1) I have no problem with a monster doing something to take an NPC out of the party, however this power was (as stated by the DM) meant to be used against the PCs and we were fortunate that it was only an NPC that got hit with it, as opposed to the PC with no surges left.
2) Our DM has actually had a monster chop off a PC's arm because it was in character for it to do so once it had knocked her out in a duel. That's not something I feel the need to complain about as it's the kind of thing that happens to adventurers if they do dumb things and there was a solution available (running to the nearest cleric and asking them to perform a ritual to fix it) to avoid making it unfun for the player; whereas this power isn't in a fight we can really choose to avoid (we need to stop the Death Knight from raising undead, and we have to kill him to do so), goes against the specific design goals of 4e (losing six surges before even getting a save is an instant kill from full health when you're out of them), and furthermore can't be fixed in this case as raise dead doesn't work for dragons on Krynn (which adds insult to injury). It also gives the whole encounter a "you're not supposed to win here" feel, when everything else suggests that it was designed to be a very challenging, but winnable encounter. Overall, I just don't see that it contributes anything positive to the game.

Lateral
2010-04-18, 09:49 PM
Didja end up winning, tho?

Also, don't all wights make you lose healing surges?
Hey, there's a new way for me to RFED: Spam wights.

edit: Yeah, I know that's nuts. All I said is that next time I need a near-TPK as a plot device, I can spam wights. Or next time I need to RFED my party.

Mystic Muse
2010-04-18, 09:50 PM
Tell your DM that if he does have to send up a guy like this against you at least make it be a battle you can win. like at the start of the day with all your powers refreshed and all your healing surges. at least then you might be able to beat this guy.

And yes, wights make you lose one healing surge.

This guy makes you lose six as a minor action. Gods can't even do that and this is at level 10 and eleven.

Lamech
2010-04-19, 12:55 AM
As long as its a daily being a minor isn't a huge deal, especially being a solo and all. The whole auto lose six surges is still a problem though.

pasko77
2010-04-19, 03:44 AM
As the original poster, I'd like to say that you've misconstrued my intent. I merely had a game where there was a power was used that I didn't feel was appropriate for a 4e game and was wondering if I was perhaps unfounded in my opinion. I don't want to throw the MM at him, that was someone else's suggestion. Nor do I view the game as a competition.

Two points as to your example:
1) I have no problem with a monster doing something to take an NPC out of the party, however this power was (as stated by the DM) meant to be used against the PCs and we were fortunate that it was only an NPC that got hit with it, as opposed to the PC with no surges left.
2) Our DM has actually had a monster chop off a PC's arm because it was in character for it to do so once it had knocked her out in a duel. That's not something I feel the need to complain about as it's the kind of thing that happens to adventurers if they do dumb things and there was a solution available (running to the nearest cleric and asking them to perform a ritual to fix it) to avoid making it unfun for the player; whereas this power isn't in a fight we can really choose to avoid (we need to stop the Death Knight from raising undead, and we have to kill him to do so), goes against the specific design goals of 4e (losing six surges before even getting a save is an instant kill from full health when you're out of them), and furthermore can't be fixed in this case as raise dead doesn't work for dragons on Krynn (which adds insult to injury). It also gives the whole encounter a "you're not supposed to win here" feel, when everything else suggests that it was designed to be a very challenging, but winnable encounter. Overall, I just don't see that it contributes anything positive to the game.

Ok, I understand.
In my opinion, generally speaking, the DM is free to ignore any rule they wish to ignore. BUT! the players must feel fine with it.
So, if the problem is the unappropriateness of themes or rules, you are right, you should confront your DM and tell them to use things that can be found in the books. Maybe, out of session, you can together decide what homebrews are fine and what aren't.

Hope to help.

Colmarr
2010-04-19, 08:04 AM
it killed her from full health (she was flying, so it was the fall that killed her).

Umm, why?

AFAIK, losing surges doesn't actually do anything to you until you subsequently take enough damage to reach 0 hp. The mere fact of going from 3 surges to 0 has no mechanical effect.

I see what you say about the fall, but what caused her to fall?

Kurald Galain
2010-04-19, 08:05 AM
Umm, why?

AFAIK, losing surges doesn't actually do anything to you until you subsequently take enough damage to reach 0 hp. The mere fact of going from 3 surges to 0 has no mechanical effect.

Usually, when you lose a healing surge but don't have any left, you instead take damage equal to your surge value. Perhaps that is what happened?

Tiki Snakes
2010-04-19, 08:33 AM
Usually, when you lose a healing surge but don't have any left, you instead take damage equal to your surge value. Perhaps that is what happened?

most likely. Also, being a creature and an npc and all, the Dragon would have only had one or two surges anyway.

Kylarra
2010-04-19, 09:00 AM
Yeah, from the sounds of it, the dragon lost 3 surges, burning their existing 2 (1 per tier generally iirc) and taking 25%. Then they failed a gimped save and lost another 75%. Due to rounding, that left it at 3hp, easy pickings.

Yakk
2010-04-19, 09:21 AM
Battle Wight
The attack in question:
+15 vs AC; 1d8+5 necrotic damage, and the target loses 1 healing surge and is immobilized (save ends).

1: If the target is out of healing surges, they don't take additional punishment. As opposed to "lose 3 times your healing surge value", which is 75% of your max HP.

2: Lose 3 healing surges immediately, then 3 (save ends) with no penalty is about 6 healing surges lost per hit. Add in a save penalty, and it could easily hit 9-10.

3: Battle Wight actually immobalises, then drains health, instead of chain-immoalising (look at monster tactics) and draining healing surges.

4: What was described is a minor action.

Some of them involve boss fights with enemies that are stronger than gods and can kill a party member in three hits.
Sure. But, fluff wise, that NPC isn't stronger than a god.

Then again, is the power spammable?

....

The problem here is that the DM probably didn't intend to have a power that reads "target dies". Because that is what the power actually says.

Kylarra
2010-04-19, 09:25 AM
It is supposed to be replicating Power word: Kill. I have a hard time rationalizing that the DM didn't intend that for "Target dies". :smalltongue:

Swordgleam
2010-04-19, 11:10 AM
It occurs to me that this power could kill someone from full on a single round: three actions plus an action point is 12 surges drained. If you only have 6 to start (non-defender or defender who's been through a fight or two), that's down to 3, down to 0, down to 1/4th HP, down to negative bloodied.

If you're a defender and had 9 surges lying around, you just drop dead at the start of your next turn. Which is a pretty awesome mental image and a good illustration of bad-guy badassery, but probably not something that should happen to PCs.

So on further thought, this is even more ridiculous than I originally realized. I say he should go all-out and give this guy 3 action points and wight minions. :smallbiggrin:

To the PCs, I suggest using siege weapons from far, far away. Do any of the books have stats for a flaming catapult?

Yakk
2010-04-19, 12:06 PM
It is supposed to be replicating Power word: Kill. I have a hard time rationalizing that the DM didn't intend that for "Target dies". :smalltongue:
Then the DM should have written "target dies". As written, is is a ridiculously cumbersome system that isn't all that interesting.

Colmarr
2010-04-20, 07:30 AM
Usually, when you lose a healing surge but don't have any left, you instead take damage equal to your surge value.

I learned something today. Haven't had that come up in our campaign yet. Thanks.

Yakk
2010-04-20, 10:58 PM
So I should put my mouth where my money is.

Power Word: Kill. Minor 1/round, close burst 10, targets 1 creature, encounter, necrotic
Automatically hits any creature lower in level than this monster. (L+5) vs Will otherwise. Targets of this power suffer a -5 penalty to saves against it.
Hit: Creature cannot be healed and loses 1 healing surge (save ends).
First failed save: Creature is also weakened and dazed.
Second failed save: Creature is reduced to 0 HP, but no longer loses healing surges.
Third failed save: Creature dies and Power Word: Kill recharges.
Aftereffect: Power Word: Kill recharges.
Special: If a creature loses a healing surge from this power when it has none remaining, it instead loses its healing surge HP value.

Now you have a neat puzzle power. It sucks healing surges, prevents healing, and generates exponentially greater suck as the target fails saves. It can be defeated with the repeated application of "gain a save" powers or heal checks -- but that just starts the entire death spiral over again on another target.

Fun and interesting, but not an auto-kill against a heroic tier monster. (also, note that "lose healing surge" powers are 5 times stronger against solos than against normal monsters).

Mando Knight
2010-04-20, 11:17 PM
That's too powerful for Power Word Kill, which is supposed to instantly kill a weak enemy, but barely scratch something tough enough to resist it (note that its 3.5 counterpart is a level 9 spell that auto-fails against anything with 101 or more HP). Also, since a lot of solos engage lower-leveled parties, it's just not a fair power to use against PCs.

Swordgleam
2010-04-21, 08:35 AM
Targets of this power suffer a -5 penalty to saves against it.

Since you only get two failed saves before you die, that seems a little strong. On average, someone's going to save against this around 51% of the time without outside help. Getting an extra save (assume no bonus since plenty of them don't give one) only gets them up to 75%. From there they still have a 30% chance to recover on the last save; otherwise, they die.

Those odds seem a little steep, especially since there's only so many "extra save" powers to go around and many of them don't give bonuses to the save. Even a party with two leaders is going to run out after two or three people have been hit with this.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-21, 08:49 AM
it's an encounter power, though, so there's no reason for the leader to not throw every bonus-save effect they have to help out - if the targeted character saves and escape the effect, the power's expended. It only recharges for another go if the target gets killed.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-21, 08:56 AM
I would do it something like this:

Power Word (wizard encounter 17)
Standard action, int vs will
Hit: 2d10+int mod thunder damage, 10 ongoing thunder damage, and the target is blinded (save ends both)
First failed save: the target is also stunned until he makes the save.
Second failed save: the target is reduced to 0 hit points.

Lateral
2010-04-21, 11:39 AM
I would do it something like this:

Power Word (wizard encounter 17)
Standard action, int vs will
Hit: 2d10+int mod thunder damage, 10 ongoing thunder damage, and the target is blinded (save ends both)
First failed save: the target is also stunned until he makes the save.
Second failed save: the target is reduced to 0 hit points.

...but that's not a Power Word Kill...

Edit: No, wait, it is. Although why thunder damage alone? I'd do 2d10+int thunder/radiant damage and 10 ongoing necro/thunder dmg- that way you have the blind (radiant), stun (thunder), and kill (necrotic) in there. Also, once he fails his saves and goes to 0, the ongoing damage still applies. Makes sense.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-21, 11:45 AM
Edit: No, wait, it is. Although why thunder damage alone?
Because it's a "word". Sonic attacks, in 4E, deal thunder damage.

Lateral
2010-04-21, 11:46 AM
No I know, but it's not the word that's hurting you, it's the magic. It's not really a sonic spell.

Yakk
2010-04-21, 11:52 AM
0 HP isn't dead. Dead is dead.

It takes 3 failed saves to die. So, unaided, 42% of targets die after 3 rounds. Add in 3 heal checks (remember, failed saves from induced saves don't cause "failed save" effects) to give free saves and you are down to 18% death rate.

Have 2 people giving you saves, and you have a mere 8% chance of dropping dead.

It is quite defeatable, especially as a power from a solo (which the PCs have outnumbered 5:1). The players either lose multiple PCs to the power word, or work hard and probably manage to survive it.

Note that when it kills the target, or it wears off, the monster can reuse the power word kill.

Admittedly, it does send you unconscious more often than that -- this is a seriously deadly power -- but being at 0 HP with some healing surges left isn't all that horrible (assuming you make the next save).

Swordgleam
2010-04-21, 05:19 PM
Third failed save: Creature dies and Power Word: Kill recharges.


0 HP isn't dead. Dead is dead.

Now I'm confused. Does that last part still apply or not?

Kurald Galain
2010-04-21, 05:43 PM
Now I'm confused. Does that last part still apply or not?

Against monsters, 0 HP is dead (or, disabled in case the player chooses to do non-lethal damage).

Against players, 0 HP is merely unconscious, and with a decent healer in the party you might not even miss your next turn.

Swordgleam
2010-04-21, 07:00 PM
I know that. Yakk's last post seemed to imply that his version of the power wasn't that lethal since it only took people to 0 HP. But after that, it kills them. So I was asking if he intended to remove that part or not.

Yakk
2010-04-24, 11:38 AM
Since you only get two failed saves before you die
It takes 3 failed saves to die. Two failed saves reduces you to 0 HP.