2 classes 3.X

[Evard]

Running a one-shot potentially going into longer game. The players and I have talked about the idea of making a gish character class for them to play. Skills will be done like the NPC class Expert where they get to choose 10 skills no matter what they are. The thing is they choose a BAB (fighter,rogue, wizard) and from that they gain at-will abilities at specific levels....

Each time a character gains +1 BAB they do not gain an extra at-will spell however at level 1 5 10 15 and 20 they gain the at-will spell automatically

fighter:1 5 10 15 20
rogue: 1 4 8 12 16 20
wizard:1 3 6 9 12 15 18 20

These at will spells can be not only any spell but special abilities of classes (however you can't gain a class ability before a class normally can)...
Only one can be activated at a time if its a class ability or a spell that has a duration longer than instant.

My question is: Which spells should be allowed also what class abilities should be allowed or better yet which should be not allowed...

Example:
Sneak attack at will: while this is on a character if the character gains Combat Advantage then he may add sneak attack damage. While this is on the character can't use any other at-will spells.

First at-will sneak attack +1d6, if they want +2d6 then they choose for their say 3rd at-will then they may retrain the +1d6 at-will for something else of that lower level.

Hmmm

[Flickerdart]

What's wrong with exiting gish classes?

You might want to take a look at the Generic Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm) to see how mix-and-matching abilities could be done.

[Sinfire Titan]

You say 3.X in the title, and then mixed 4E in with it?



Any headaches are your own fault. I'm washing my hands of this one ASAP.

[HunterOfJello]

I would recommend using the ToB classes along with the Duskblade, Beguiler and Dread Necromancer for most gish builds before attempting to create your own new classes.


If you're going to create new ones, then I'd go along the lines of the already mentioned 'Generic Classes' mentioned in Unearthed Arcana. They really are quite impressive and have a lot of variation with their choice of class skill selection and crazy number of bonus feats. The Spellcaster is definitely tier 1 or at the very top of tier 2.

[Evard]

Only the use of the term at-will which is not an only 4e term, you didn't even get your hands dirty >.>

These will give the players more uses of less abilities and although I like some of the gish abilities they don't give enough range in many areas... With this one could have cure lght wounds and then rage if they wanted

Anyways..... Lets stick with core spells from d20srd.com

Which spells should be allowed to be at-will, maybe cap it at a certain sell level? Maybe spell level 5 or 6?

[Zeign]

I think it depends on what you are looking for.

Are these "at-will" abilities in addition to pre-existing class features (wizard+, fighter+, rogue+) or are they to replace casting abilities (since less BAB = more at-will abilities)?

Also, how do you want to organize the distribution? When you say cap at 5th and 6th level abilities, at what level does this occur? Is it different for every class? For instance, a wizard would get 8 at-will abilities while a fighter would get 5. If they both get access to level 6 spells even in only one slot it seems unbalanced.

Honestly for at-will abilities (3.x not expending a spell slot and 4e usable at-will, hehe) I think 5th and 6th level spells are tremendously powerful. Even at level 20, the ability to use a disintegrate spell infinitely is hard core, especially if a fighter that can do crazy damage with his weapons/feats can have even one spell on that level as "at-will."

From a 3.5 perspective I think anything above level 3 as an "indefinite resource" spell seems too strong. I've only played a short game in 4e, partially because I didn't like the system but more so because my gaming group talked more about Magic The Gathering (I don't play) than our game...but I digress.

I'm not sure how you want to organize it, but even a 1 spell level upgrade per ability would mean fighters having access to lv 4 spells (and conversely wizards having access to lv 7 "at-will" abilities). I'll admit I don't know a lot about gish classes so maybe I missed something, but "at-will" abilities even at spell level 3 are quite powerful. I mean, casters catch hell all the time for being overpowered and they are limited in all their resources (which granted only matters if the DM allows it to with rest time).

I think it's an interesting idea but I would propose separate caps for each class type based their current level and "ability level" that is based on BAB. I would also propose a lower spell level cap overall but w/e you think will work well in your campaign. :smallsmile:

When not considering spells but class features like sneak attack I think it might be best to judge them on an individual basis. Sneak attack is a normally unlimited game mechanic that can be used under certain conditions, so using it "at-will" is no prob and upgrading it 1d6 to 2d6 and replacing the 1d6 ability is no prob. This becomes stronger for wizard classes than fighters since they have 8 chances vs. 5, but fighters are more combat heavy (plus I don't know any wizards that would take sneak attack unless they specialized in ranged touch spells).

I like the idea! I might play a gish someday but I like to role play casters so much!!! Also, first post! Long time lurker, first time poster.

[HunterOfJello]

I agree with the idea that at-will spell-like abilities are very tricky and are extremely powerful. It's good to remember that the highest level wands that can be made from the DMG are only level 4 spells and cost 21,000 to 33,500 gp each.

[Zeign]

Also, according to SRD, normally you must have the spell a wand casts on your spell sheet to use it. If not you must make a UMD check against a DC of 20 to use it, and UMD is not a class skill for many classes and cannot be used at all untrained. So in addition to a wand usually having charges (limited use) it normally isn't possible for a non caster class to use them at all. A gish class is obviously something very different but for a fighter to even be able to use a wand of any spell level is extraordinary, so a fighter freely using level 5-6 spells seems completely unbalanced with casters that can't do anything BUT cast.

Granted, casters are generally 1-up (or more) on the melee fighters in later levels but if you're planning on using all gish characters maybe the level of magic could be toned down. What's the point of having a crazy strong fighter that can cast overland flight, greater dispel magic, baleful polymorph, mislead, dominate person, or telepathic bond (all 5-6 spells). Even one of those is game breaking for the other casters who can't hold a fork against anything in melee combat.

[Amphetryon]

Combat Advantage is a 4E term; so is the way you're phrasing 'at-wills.' It makes it difficult to pin down the game you're playing.


3.x has multiple viable gish classes. Your stated concept closely matches Chameleon abilities as well as some Fochlucan Lyrist ideas. Start there.

[Evard]

Combat advantage might be the wording but the meaning is the same.

The reference to fighter,rogue, wizard is in terms of BAB like reading from crystal keep. These abilities will be what the "classes" get.

Also i realized i put 2 not 3 in the title :smallredface:

With the spells level 4 would be the max spell level someone could use at-will but maybe a few of the higher level ones (such as non damaging spells/healing spells/illusions hmm).

I'm thinking of not capping class abilities, thus at level 20 a class can choose any class ability such as barbarian's DR. Also maybe make a separate pool for class abilities thus letting the person with the higher BAB gain things like sneak attack, rage, or fast movement.

Spell Abilities (at-will) as before

Class Abilities (at-will or always active) at these levels they can gain +1 class abilities (as long as they are of that level or higher than the actual class ability).

Caster BAB:1 5 10 15 20
Rogue BAB: 1 4 8 12 16 20
Fighter BAB:1 3 6 9 12 15 18 20

The Caster BAB will have more spell at will abilities but less class abilities
Rogue BAB will have an even number of both
Fighter BAB will have tons of class abilities but not so many spell abilities

With the balance issue I may make it where only the Wizard BAB progression allows the character to gain higher than 4th level spells (non damaging though) hmm

In battle the caster will have more flexibility with spells and with the ability to gain 5th and higher level spells they can counter spell mages really easily :p.

The person who uses the rogue bab will be the most flexible due to being good at melee and having the same number of spell/class abilities

Fighters will be great will class abilities having a wide range and some support from spells.

The only spell I'm hesitant about is true strike... although if thats all they want to use then everytime they use it they can't use many other abilities... Might just ban it completely lol