OOTS #716 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Blue Ghost]

Interesting developments here. Looking forward to the next one.

[Water-Smurf]

Well, it's nice to know that they'll have a supervisor. Who knows what Elan and V would get up to without Haley to help them? :smallwink:

[Saph]

Well huh. Didn't see that one coming.

Does this mean V's now 15th-level?

[CoffeeIncluded]

*Squee*

Awesome. Can't wait to see what happens next! :smallbiggrin:

[The Rose Dragon]

Hey, the dagger was useful. That's kinda cool.

[Scoot]

Green should have listened to Blue. :smallamused:

[Kobold-Bard]

Love it. Obscure spells ftw.

[Deme]

Let's hope Roy understands the message... It's sidequest time! Sidequest that will hopefully advance the main quest, somewhere along the line.

[Morthis]

How is this an improvement over Haley just telling Roy what happened? :smallconfused:

[Raven777]

And off we'll be to visit the Empire of Blood!

[PirateMonk]

So that's what Power Words look like.

[Kerrah]

How is this an improvement over Haley just telling Roy what happened? :smallconfused:

They got the wanted poster, so now they'll know WHY this has happened.

[TheYoungKing]

Its not an improvement over just getting away.

[Assassin89]

Guess V's plan was to alert Roy to their abduction. I anticipate that Roy will attempt to beat up the Linear guild to get his party back or he will explain the situation.

[John Cribati]

Reminds me of dropping the tower on the hobgoblins.

[Snake-Aes]

Go team androgynous!

[Ted The Bug]

First thought: shiny pink letters!
EDIT: After reading it a second time, I have to ask; how does Haley know what the poster says?

[SPoD]

How is this an improvement over Haley just telling Roy what happened? :smallconfused:

The improvement is that a paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan will not be alone and imprisoned in a strange country. Haley found a way to alert Roy while still protecting Elan and V.

[Thursday]

Can't some random NPC happen by and fancy a nice dagger and free poster?

I suspect not, because of PLOT!

EDIT; Also, Nice one! Did not spot that coming.

[Nevadie]

Yay! New name for the Blue guy!

[Harbajar]

Whoo! Take that Wanted Poster! lol :smallbiggrin:

Lovin' IT!!

[TheYoungKing]

The improvement is that a paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan will not be alone and imprisoned in a strange country. Haley found a way to alert Roy while still protecting Elan and V.

She is going to be just as incapacitated in no time.

Haley made a mistake. Coming from being separated all that time in Azure City, its not without reason.

[denthor]

Fun times they just split the party again however

[Starbuck_II]

Can't some random NPC happen by and fancy a nice dagger and free poster?

I suspect not, because of PLOT!

EDIT; Also, Nice one! Did not spot that coming.

Free poster? Who collects wanted posters?
I understand the knife: I mean it is magical.

[John Cribati]

Also, Blue guy is Enor and green guy is Gannji. fitting, somehow.

[SPoD]

She is going to be just as incapacitated in no time.

Haley made a mistake. Coming from being separated all that time in Azure City, its not without reason.

She won't be incapacitated if she doesn't try to escape. She's going along with them specifically so they don't knock her out. They'll tie her up or throw her in jail or something, and she knows she can escape most bonds and pick most locks.

It's only a mistake if it doesn't work.


Can't some random NPC happen by and fancy a nice dagger and free poster?

I suspect not, because of PLOT!

Well, Roy is happening by in an hour, and the streets seem abandoned (because it's the middle of the night).

So, yeah...Plot.

[Thursday]

Free poster? Who collects wanted posters?
I understand the knife: I mean it is magical.

I probably would..

[TheYoungKing]

And Gannji doesn't know that any good Rogue would have ranks in Escape Artist.

[Aurorax]

OK, but what are the chances of Roy chancing upon the dagger and the wanted poster....oh I guess with the power of plot development, 100%

[Warder]

Totally worth those eight spellbook pages.

[Studoku]

Yay, new comic.

Although I find it hard to belive that someone isn't going to steal the magic dagger before Roy finds it.

[Occasional Sage]

I have to say, Haley's single solution to two problems was clever.

[Hann]

Looks like we're switching up who gets split from whom. :smallwink:

Great work Rich!

[homeosapiens]

For me what Haley did sucked. She didnt need to get cought. Also:
1. She probably lost her bow.
2.She might lose her dagger.

They saw the poster - they could try to explain.

[Zorn]

Wait, how could Haley have known about the poster? From the looks of things in the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), she'd be too far away to read it or perhaps even overhear their conversation. I suppose if she did hear it would be reasonable for her to assume whatever's on it is worth "showing" to Roy, but that's quite the gamble. Vaarsuvius couldn't have given her any clues as to it's importance (pointing with her eyes maybe?) either; s/he didn't know what Haley was planning on doing.

Very good strip though! I love that the circling birdies were replaced with pterodactyls, and now we know the names of both kidnappers. Keep 'em coming, Mr. Burlew!

[Iferus]

I like the way she thinks!

[MonkeyBusiness]

A stunning episode! Lots of fun to read! Thanks, Giant!
:haley: I like Haley's method of cut-and-paste.

MBiz

[derfenrirwolv]

OK, but what are the chances of Roy chancing upon the dagger and the wanted poster....oh I guess with the power of plot development, 100%

power of plot development nothing. Thats the spot roy is going to meet them at.

[slayerx]

OK, but what are the chances of Roy chancing upon the dagger and the wanted poster....oh I guess with the power of plot development, 100%

Quite high actually, if i recall where they were captured was right about where they were supposed to meet the rest of the order


Wait, how could Haley have known about the poster? From the looks of things in the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), she'd be too far away to read it or perhaps even overhear their conversation. I suppose if she did hear it would be reasonable for her to assume whatever's on it is worth "showing" to Roy, but that's quite the gamble. Vaarsuvius couldn't have given her any clues as to it's importance (pointing with her eyes maybe?) either; s/he didn't know what Haley was planning on doing.
I think it's plenty possible that she could overhear what they were saying... They are bounty hunters, they have some random piece of paper out and V's telling Haley to deliver something to Roy... Haley put the pieces together and figured that the piece of paper would tell the rest of the group were to find V and Elan.

[Acero]

For me what Haley did sucked. She didnt need to get cought. Also:
1. She probably lost her bow.
2.She might lose her dagger.

They saw the poster - they could try to explain.

Remember, she did it to protect them(how, i have no clue?)

[rman]

And Gannji doesn't know that any good Rogue would have ranks in Escape Artist.

If Gannji believes the poster then she is a shape-shifting succubus. He will not be expecting rogue levels.

[Blaznak]

I'm voting Haley was being Crafty.

Although why Roy instead of anyone else in the city will find the knife/poster is beyond me.

[GooeyChewie]

If Gannji believes the poster then she is a shape-shifting succubus. He will not be expecting rogue levels.

Except that the post calls Sabine a "demon rogue," so he should be expecting a rogue.

[DSCrankshaw]

Its not an improvement over just getting away.

Everyone seems to be missing an important point: Haley didn't know where they were going. She didn't see the poster, so she didn't know who wanted them or where they were. They were teleporting out, and Haley had no way of tracking them once they did. And without V's people-finding spells, I'm not sure the rest of the party could (maybe Durkon has some divinations that will help, but it seems that V's the expert on that).

So it was critical that the party get that poster. Haley only knew that because V told her ("Deliver to Greenhilt!"). So she sacrificed herself to make sure that it was, because the poster could tell Roy something she couldn't.

[Starscream]

Nice to see the characters working together so well, especially after a year of separation. Also a great reminder that V and Haley are good friends.

[Nevadie]

Wait, how could Haley have known about the poster? From the looks of things in the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), she'd be too far away to read it or perhaps even overhear their conversation. I suppose if she did hear it would be reasonable for her to assume whatever's on it is worth "showing" to Roy, but that's quite the gamble. Vaarsuvius couldn't have given her any clues as to it's importance (pointing with her eyes maybe?) either; s/he didn't know what Haley was planning on doing.

Very good strip though! I love that the circling birdies were replaced with pterodactyls, and now we know the names of both kidnappers. Keep 'em coming, Mr. Burlew!

Rogues are known for having quite developed spot and listen skills, so its acually very likely she heard then and saw the poster. Then thought of a quick plan to both protect V and Elan, and warn roy. Ether that, or she knew she had to go with them, so she tried to get herself captured, and upon hearing V say "Deliver to Greenhilt" Saw an opportunity to warn Roy. Also, add the fact that Elan, her love, is being taken away again, after being seperated for months. If I were to "play" Haley, I would have done the same thing.

Not to mention i think the spell "Message" is a level 0 or 1 spell, Its possible that V and Haley could have already been talking and Rich just didnt show it.

[Snake-Aes]

Also, Blue guy is Enor and green guy is Gannji. fitting, somehow.

By what standards? I don't recall the names to anything. They do sound nice, and they both happen to be very competent, which is rare in this comic.

[Trixie]

She won't be incapacitated if she doesn't try to escape. She's going along with them specifically so they don't knock her out. They'll tie her up or throw her in jail or something, and she knows she can escape most bonds and pick most locks.

Really.

Remember last time she was bound? She could do squat.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0161.html

And, I must agree with previous posts - just why isn't the dagger gone withing next five minutes? Along with the poster? How she knew what was on the poster? Did Roy even saw this particular dagger?

And how do you break casting from a scroll? Isn't that instantaneous? :smallconfused:

[multilis]

power of plot development nothing. Thats the spot roy is going to meet them at.
And no one else will chance on an *extremely* valuable knife and take it first? As well as extremely valuable bow?

And if the wanted poster blows away or is thrown in garbage...

One less person to help rescue, less likely Roy and friends will find out what happened quickly, etc.

[Thursday]

And, I must agree with previous posts - just why isn't the dagger gone withing next five minutes? Along with the poster?

Why don't we all wait and see? in the next comic this could all work out just wonderfully.

Oh wait, just remembered where I am...

[multilis]

Why don't we all wait and see? in the next comic this could all work out just wonderfully.

Oh wait, just remembered where I am...
Of course it could, by power of *plot*, that is the argument.

Sort of like Roy cutting off undead dragon head, which normally would be bad move as X points out, but head just happens to land on guy about to kill V.

[Silverraptor]

Alot of people seem to be asking how Haley knew what the poster said. I think she of all people would know how wanted posters look like. Also, in the previous comic, Mr. Green skin was talking about how Elan was fool enough to show his face in every tavern. Now she knows that Nale is out there and deserves to be on every wanted poster and the fact that Elan was confused as Nale once before gave her a clue about mistaken identity once again.

I agree that she should have gone with them because otherwise it would've been only V and Elan. Elan is really stupid and would probably get himself into bigger trouble just by opening his mouth and Varrsuvius doesn't exactly scream "Good" either. Atleast this way, she can help out their situation somewhat.

[Trixie]

By the way - what they wanted to say just before the end?

Wait, do you have the--

What exactly? :smallconfused:


Rogues are known for having quite developed spot and listen skills, so its acually very likely she heard then and saw the poster.

Perhaps you missed all the strips where she failed spot/listen checks made against a crowd three steps away? :smallamused:

[multilis]

Alot of people seem to be asking how Haley knew what the poster said. I think she of all people would know how wanted posters look like. Also, in the previous comic, Mr. Green skin was talking about how Elan was fool enough to show his face in every tavern. Now she knows that Nale is out there and deserves to be on every wanted poster and the fact that Elan was confused as Nale once before.

I agree that she should have gone with them because otherwise it would've been only V and Elan. Elan is really stupid and would probably get himself into bigger trouble just by opening his mouth and Varrsuvius doesn't exactly scream "Good" either. Atleast this way, she can help out their situation somewhat.
"Elan is really stupid and would probably get himself into bigger trouble just by opening his mouth" - For Elan, stupid has been a class feature/advantage, including in his last kidnappings by bandits and orcs. Of course that is also powered by plot.

[TheYoungKing]

By the way - what they wanted to say just before the end?

Wait, do you have the--

What exactly? :smallconfused:


I assumed it was the poster- the joke being that the dumb one saw their mistake, but the smart one didn't.

[Thursday]

Of course it could, by power of *plot*, that is the argument.

Evidently my sarcasm wasn't strong enough.

Meh, I do admit it's often said and not that amusing anyway, but true.

[Porthos]

I find it hiliarious that people are draging in "real life" into this situation. What just happened in the comic is something that would absolutely happen in a game of DnD. You don't think a PC would do that sort of stunt in a way to try to keep on top of a situation? Of course they would.

I've seen crazier things at a gaming table. And, I suspect, all of us reading on this forum have as well. :smallwink:

And this comic is still a story that parodies/is based on DnD, not "real life", no matter how dramatic it got for a stretch of time.

So Haley's actions seem perfectly in character, and perfectly acceptable from a storytelling point of view.

Will they work? Time will tell, now won't it? :smallamused:

[Snake-Aes]

And how do you break casting from a scroll? Isn't that instantaneous? :smallconfused:

V could Ready an action to stun Gannji as he cast the spell. Readied actions are rather bendy when it comes to logic as you can use a standard action, like a spell, to interrupt another spell being cast.

casting from a scoll isn't instantaneous as far as I know either. It's a standard action.

[Woodsman]

Brilliant as usual.

[Faramir]

How is this an improvement over Haley just telling Roy what happened? :smallconfused:

She gets to stay with Elan and hopefully keep him from getting killed until the rest of the Order figures out where they are.

[waterpenguin43]

I loved this comic. It makes me glad that though the party is seperate again; Haley and Elan are together. And nobody is dead.

[Porthos]

casting from a scoll isn't instantaneous as far as I know either. It's a standard action.

While there's some debate on whether or not that is true in DnD Proper (Core Rules imply one thing, Rules Compendium says another), in OotS, casting from a scroll has always been shown as a Standard Action. For example, the Sending scrolls Nate used were clearly Standard Actions. Even the "Control Weather" scroll that Durkon used was a Standard Action to activate (the scroll wasn't glowing during the repeated ControlWeatherControlWeatherControlWeather bit while Durkon's Holy Symbol was - this almost certainly refers to the fact that it takes 10 minutes after the spell is cast for the first effects to be seen).

[CWater]

Awesome comic!

"Someone needs to look after the two of you" lol :smallbiggrin:

[DSCrankshaw]

She gets to stay with Elan and hopefully keep him from getting killed until the rest of the Order figures out where they are.

And, as I pointed out earlier, Haley didn't know where they were going. The wanted poster did say.

[Draconi Redfir]

sweet throw by Haley. your awsome Rich!:smallbiggrin:

[Jokasti]

Pterodactyls. Priceless.

[Felecies]

She is going to be just as incapacitated in no time.

Haley made a mistake. Coming from being separated all that time in Azure City, its not without reason.

why would Haley be beat up? When you go for a bounty, healthy people are usualy worth more. I mean they already have her captive why beat her up?

[Nevadie]

Interestingly enough, we may have an HP range for ganji, and possibly a level range after that.

Ganji only seemed to be stunned for one round, long enough for Haley to run up and charge attack. If thats true, that puts his HP at 101-150. Im sure the class geekery thread will deduce something out of that.

Of course, Rich could have not shown a few rounds. Who knows. :P

[Draz74]

More plot holes/interesting speculations in this thread than usual. I'd like to add one more:

Why does Gannji refer to Haley as "your human friend"? Doesn't he think she's a demon -- the demon referred to on the Wanted poster?

[GenPol]

Hah, pretty awesome. I hope Roy finds it before everybody else in the city sees the expensive looking dagger just lying on the ground.

[wodan46]

Haley's reasons were pretty straightforward.

1. She is capable of escaping from imprisonment far more than the other two are.
2. She is capable of bargaining for time far more than the other two are.
3. She is uninjured, they aren't, which is useful in the immediate future.
4. Elan followed by V are the two people in the party she cares the most about, she isn't likely to abandon them, especially after the group just got reunited.

[Magicyop]

Hah! V finally gets to use those eight spellbook pages and 300 gp of ink.

Also, to those wondering what the odds are that Roy or one of the other OotS would find the poster, pretty high. The poster is right in the spot where the order was going to meet. At latest, someone will show up in 1 hour, and at best, someone else will arrive early and find the poster.

Bravo, great comic, eagerly awaiting more.

[Drolyt]

Yay for new comics! Go Giant!

[Dr.Epic]

Another crowning moment of awesome for Haley. Though I'm disappointed we're splitting the party again so soon.

[gosh]

I like this strip - while not quite as funny as the previous strip ("Coordinated soul-selling?") it definitely shows that Gannji and Enor (I'll have to get used to those names) are dumber than they think.

It appears to be in the evening, and it's in the spot the group was supposed to meet at, so I think Roy has a pretty good chance of finding the poster/knife. I also think Haley did the right thing, as she is now able to protect the unconcious/immobilized Elan and V. While normally she wouldn't have known what was on the poster, V's instructions made it clear to her that the poster could tell more about their location than Haley herself could have.


More plot holes/interesting speculations in this thread than usual. I'd like to add one more:

Why does Gannji refer to Haley as "your human friend"? Doesn't he think she's a demon -- the demon referred to on the Wanted poster?

I was also wondering about this...

[Lupy]

It's nice to see the party relying on Roy again. :smallsmile:

[MonkeyBusiness]

Alot of people seem to be asking how Haley knew what the poster said. I think she of all people would know how wanted posters look ...

This made me laugh, because it's true! :biggrin:

I imagine Haley was able to "know" what the poster said because she made her spot check. This is a comic about gaming, and while a good game doesn't ignore reality, it bends in favor of letting the PC's try to act heroic. Sometimes they succeed, and sometimes reality (or a better set of stats)wins. I would not do what Haley did (even if I could) ... but I would, in a game, ask my DM to let my character try similar stunts. Why not?

I like that OOTS stretches my imagination. I know that The Giant will not try to stretch it so far that the elastic pops and falls shapeless and ruined around my ankles. I know that it's crazy for Roy to be able to leap onto a moving zombie dragon, but I love that he can do the impossible ... and I also love that he dies if he falls off.

It's the Elan Method of storytelling: it doesn't always make "sense", but it does make a great story. And that's why we read it.

MBiz

[ThePhantasm]

I have a feeling that, per the rules of humor and irony, Roy will not immediately figure it out.

[chionophile]

People are making a fuss about Haley not knowing what was on the paper. I'd just like to point out that it doesn't matter what was on the paper. Vaarsuvius said to deliver it to Greenhilt, so that's what Haley did her best to do. She trusts V, remember?

[Lateral]

Yayyy! The half-dragon dude has a name too!

Gannji and Enor... I hope they survive. They sound fun.


Hah! V finally gets to use those eight spellbook pages and 300 gp of ink.
Just cuz I feel like it, I'll say this. It was 7 pages. Power Word Blind is what V scribed. Hey! PW Stun is 8th level! That means the Oots is in the lv15 area! SWEET!

[Tobimaro]

I was hoping for a Haley Sneak Attack, but I guess that this is a better result. She gets to supervise Elan and V (who both need it), and she still tries her best to warn Roy as to what is going on. I just hope that it is Roy that comes along next.

Bad situation: some random person finds the dagger and wanted poster, takes dagger, and throws the paper away.

Worst situation: Nale is in town, and he finds the items. Hilarity ensues.

[Gwynfrid]

People are making a fuss about Haley not knowing what was on the paper. I'd just like to point out that it doesn't matter what was on the paper. Vaarsuvius said to deliver it to Greenhilt, so that's what Haley did her best to do. She trusts V, remember?

On its own, that point wins the debate regarding Haley being clever or stupid, IMHO.


Haley's reasons were pretty straightforward.

1. She is capable of escaping from imprisonment far more than the other two are.
2. She is capable of bargaining for time far more than the other two are.
3. She is uninjured, they aren't, which is useful in the immediate future.
4. Elan followed by V are the two people in the party she cares the most about, she isn't likely to abandon them, especially after the group just got reunited.

Yep. Her actions are wholly in character. On top of the above 4:

5. Haley is a trooper, and as such she hates losing. She doesn't want to be left completely beaten. Outsmarting her enemies is at least a partial victory.

[Yendor]

That would have been a perfect occasion for Power Word Blind. Try reading that Teleport scroll now.

[RMcMurtry]

Vaarsuvius is highly intelligent and has no ranks in social skills; (s)he probably just bought off a charisma penalty last time (s)he leveled.

Elan has high ranks in diplomacy but is still weak when it comes to any sort of intelligence function.

Haley (I expect) has decent stats in intelligence and charisma and ranks in diplomacy (especially since Azure City). Since their captors might well keep the casters gagged (Nale's a sorceror, Elan's a bard, V and Z are both wizards), she might be permitted to speak and deal with the whole situation that way.

[Lateral]

Used power word Stun instead. V probably hadn't prepared PW Blind today, otherwise (s)he wouldn't have blown an 8th level slot.

[Inhuman Bot]

why would Haley be beat up? When you go for a bounty, healthy people are usualy worth more. I mean they already have her captive why beat her up?

You mean slaves?

[ChristianT]

How is this an improvement over Haley just telling Roy what happened? :smallconfused:

Without Haley, Elan would be sad and V might freak out again. She's there to make sure they don't get into more trouble.

[kusje]

The improvement is that a paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan will not be alone and imprisoned in a strange country. Haley found a way to alert Roy while still protecting Elan and V.

Uh. Haley will be equally helpless. So now we'll help a disabled Haley, paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan alone and imprisoned in a strange country.

Wouldn't it be much smarter for Haley to stay safe? The rescuers might need all the help they can get.

[Shale]

I doubt it.

One, Haley is a rogue in the mid-teens. They're hard to keep in prison.

Two, Haley's captors think she's a demon. What do you want to bet they think cold iron will be enough to neutralize her?

[TheCoolThatguy]

Umm, why does everyone think that Haley nailed down the Wanted poster with Nale's face on it?

The Lizard guy clearly states that Haley cost him a *teleport* scroll. That's how the others are going to find them.

[DSCrankshaw]

Uh. Haley will be equally helpless. So now we'll help a disabled Haley, paralyzed V and an unconscious Elan alone and imprisoned in a strange country.

Wouldn't it be much smarter for Haley to stay safe? The rescuers might need all the help they can get.

A rogue's only helpless when she's unconscious. It is very difficult (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0262.html) to keep a rogue from escaping. It's a calculated risk, but worthwhile, especially when you consider that she needed to get hold of the bounty poster, because she did not know where they were going.

EDIT:

Umm, why does everyone think that Haley nailed down the Wanted poster with Nale's face on it?

The Lizard guy clearly states that Haley cost him a *teleport* scroll. That's how the others are going to find them.
The teleport scroll disappeared when it fizzled. V cost him the teleport scroll--the "You... cost me a teleport scroll" is addressed to the elf wizard, not Haley. We can clearly see that the remaining scroll has the frame for Nale's picture in it in panel 2.

And a teleport scroll does not specify location--retrieving it would not have helped the Order. And if it had not been used up, then Gannji could have simply retrieved it.

[Shale]

The teleport scroll vanished when the spell fizzled. It's in the lizardman's left hand (stage right), and disappears when V casts Power Word Stun. The wanted poster - you can see the layout of it, including the big picture of Nale - is in his right hand, and still there until Haley knocks it away.

[kusje]

People are making a fuss about Haley not knowing what was on the paper. I'd just like to point out that it doesn't matter what was on the paper. Vaarsuvius said to deliver it to Greenhilt, so that's what Haley did her best to do. She trusts V, remember?

Yes, but our point is that she didn't need to get caught to do so.

[Shale]

She never said she HAD to get caught. She wanted to go with them. Completely separate decision.

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

Yep, Roy's a smart boy. Now I hope he's smart enough.

[Yendor]

The teleport scroll vanished when the spell fizzled. It's in the lizardman's left hand (stage right), and disappears when V casts Power Word Stun. The wanted poster - you can see the layout of it, including the big picture of Nale - is in his right hand, and still there until Haley knocks it away.

You can even make out the word "WANTED" on it.

[Zorn]

Wait, how could Haley have known about the poster? From the looks of things in the previous strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0715.html), she'd be too far away to read it or perhaps even overhear their conversation. I suppose if she did hear it would be reasonable for her to assume whatever's on it is worth "showing" to Roy, but that's quite the gamble. Vaarsuvius couldn't have given her any clues as to it's importance (pointing with her eyes maybe?) either; s/he didn't know what Haley was planning on doing.

Rogues are known for having quite developed spot and listen skills, so its acually very likely she heard then and saw the poster. Then thought of a quick plan to both protect V and Elan, and warn roy. Ether that, or she knew she had to go with them, so she tried to get herself captured, and upon hearing V say "Deliver to Greenhilt" Saw an opportunity to warn Roy. Also, add the fact that Elan, her love, is being taken away again, after being seperated for months. If I were to "play" Haley, I would have done the same thing.

Not to mention i think the spell "Message" is a level 0 or 1 spell, Its possible that V and Haley could have already been talking and Rich just didnt show it.

That's a good point. This is a comic based in a fantasy setting. It's also based on DnD which is a system that has PCs performing superhuman feats (in this case above average listen and possibly spot checks) almost on a constant basis. In that sense, I suppose it isn't surprising at all that she knew what they had said, what was on that poster, and the thread count of Gannji's bandanna.

On the other hand, while she has certainly leveled up a few times and the following strip was mostly done as a joke, Haley has been known to fail spot/listen checks (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html).


I think she of all people would know how wanted posters look like.

Very true. :smallamused:

Edit: Since I seem to have garnered a few responses, I do want to make it clear that my original comment was less of a criticism than it may have appeared.

[frogman55]

Just wanted to tune in and say that the fast rate of new comics lately is truly awesome. It reminds me of old days when I first got hooked.

[chionophile]

Yes, but our point is that she didn't need to get caught to do so.

Maybe not your point, but a number of posters were arguing over it (Zorn and Nevadie, for starters).

[Solara]

I have a feeling that, per the rules of humor and irony, Roy will not immediately figure it out.

Haha yes, 'oh sh--! We just missed a fight with the Linear Guild!'

Or even better, 'OMG Haley's gone back to her greedy rogue roots and turned Elan in for the bounty!' :smallbiggrin:

...no seriously though, I'm having a hard time thinking of realistic misunderstanding-fueled hijinks.

[Sijo]

Wow, the strips ARE coming out faster lately! I guess that's another advantage of focusing a little more on the action than the humor. :smallwink:

This is the first time I see the old Power Word: Stun spell used ANYWHERE and I was a little disappointed. From what I remember, it was supposed to incapacitate even high-level monsters, for quite a while. Of course that was back in First Edition AD&D, and this strip is free to interpret it anyway, but still, bummer. :smallannoyed:

I must side with "getting captured is a stupid idea" (she doesn't KNOW she can help them, she would've been more useful helping Roy track them down) but as V said (earlier) the emotional responses are not always the best. (But they make for good stories.)

And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

[DSCrankshaw]

And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

Where else would he go? The bad guys just used teleport to go collect their bounty, so that's where they are. Anyway, since we don't know what city they're in now, we really don't know how far away they are, and I figure that with Wind Walk they can get there in a few days anyway.

The poster's really the only clue as to where V and Elan will be, whether or not Haley was captured. There's no way she, or anyone else in the Order, could track them without it.

[Shale]

Assuming Roy finds it (and it's attached to Haley's dagger, in the place where they were supposed to meet, so he'll know who it's from if he sees it), it's not exactly a brain teaser. "Hey, the guy who looks EXACTLY LIKE one of our missing party members is a wanted man in the Empire of Blood, and so are two other people who could be mistaken for the other two missing party members. And they wanted us to know this. Where could they be?"

[AxeD]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.
BTW, I still think that its rubbish that Enor managed to grapple Haley while carrying 2 medium sized creatures. Anyone know how the hell he could have managed that?
On another note, damn! I guess V rolled a 1 on that spell, Gannji sure wasn't stunned for more than a round, at my estimate.

[Shale]

The only thing in his hands was a piece of paper, which might have been hooked by a claw.

Edit: Also, Haley wanted to be captured. She'd deliberately fail that grapple check.

[Herald Alberich]

I was wondering how the Power Word spells would look. 306 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0306.html) established that Power Words are indeed only one word, but the normal way of vocalizing spells would make them three words each. Good solution.

So, where do we go from here? Do we stay with the poster and watch Roy figure out what happened, or do we go with V, Haley, and Elan? I think it's more likely to be the latter, the better for Roy and company to come crashing in to the scene at a dramatically appropriate moment, several strips down the line.



And yeah, the dagger-on-the-poster is a VERY risky gambit and even if Roy finds it, WHERE is he going to look? Is he going all the way to the Empire of Blood? Geez. Of course it will work, it's a story (and the characters *sometimes* are aware of it) but still, the sheer asspull of it is annoying.

We have no idea where on the continent they are, how far away the EoB is, and heck, they could be in the country already. The Teleport could have taken the bounty hunters across the continent or across the city. Anyway, if they're not already in Bleedingham, Wind Walk will get them there soon enough.

[Kewpa]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.
BTW, I still think that its rubbish that Enor managed to grapple Haley while carrying 2 medium sized creatures. Anyone know how the hell he could have managed that?
On another note, damn! I guess V rolled a 1 on that spell, Gannji sure wasn't stunned for more than a round, at my estimate.

Looks like our favorite heroes are having a very bad run of luck.

[slayerx]

We have no idea where on the continent they are, how far away the EoB is, and heck, they could be in the country already. The Teleport could have taken the bounty hunters across the continent or across the city. Anyway, if they're not already in Bleedingham, Wind Walk will get them there soon enough.

Actually i think i may be safe to say that they are not in the Empire of Blood, and that it is possible they are close by
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

i assume the large dots on the map are the largest cities, the ones they were planning on checking... based on what Haley said the first place they are likely to go to is Dictoria... assuming what we saw was their first attempt to search the city, that places them several countires away from the empire of blood... and they were planning to windwalk between cities and countries anyway; it's practically on there way to the next city

Though i am making quite a few assumptions

[Herald Alberich]

Actually i think i may be safe to say that they are not in the Empire of Blood, and that it is possible they are close by
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html

i assume the large dots on the map are the largest cities, the ones they were planning on checking... and if the red star is where they thought the gate was then that would mean they would likely go to Dictoria first and start their search there... that places them several countires away from the empire of blood... and they were planning to windwalk between cities and countries anyway; it's practically on there way to the next city

Though i am making quite a few assumptions

Only one assumption is problematic: that they're still in the first city. We don't know how many cities they've checked so far. They could be anywhere.

[Locnil]

I forgot, but is it stated anywhere what enchantments that dagger has?

[Yendor]

I forgot, but is it stated anywhere what enchantments that dagger has?

It's a +4 dagger. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html)

[Haggis]

I noticed a few people wondering how Roy would find the poster/ worried bout Haily losing her bow and knife. My quess is Belkar.

He has the nose (and height) of a bloodhound. She's one of few people he almost cares about, and he pretending to be a useful party member. I can't see how he won't recover them for her or find the poster.

[carabaldo]

Separated again.
AARGH :smallyuk:

[derfenrirwolv]

Edit: Also, Haley wanted to be captured. She'd deliberately fail that grapple check.

She can use escape artist to ESCAPE a grapple but not to avoid one. Given big blue appears to be large sized, a fighter type, and have a large strength bonus i think that's the one part of the operation she didn't need to fix.

[Porthos]

There's another thing that people who are complaining about Haley's actions are missing: Namely, she only had 30 seconds or so (at most, possibly much less) to make up her mind over what she was going to do.

She didn't sit down for 10 minutes to go over the plusses and minuses of her plan. She didn't have anyone to talk to sound off her idea. She didn't have time to do much of anything except come up with one plan.

It's all well and good for people to sit back and nitpick a character decision over days, looking at every possible flaw. But that's not the situation Haley was in. She saw an opportunity, and she grabbed it.

So if people insist on comparing this to a Real Life situation (she'll be knocked out! The dagger will be stolen! She couldn't have seen what was on the poster!), then it has to cut both ways.

The only thing that matters right now is: Was this "in character" for Haley? And I think there is ample evidence that this is exactly something that a person like Haley would do, given the situation.

[Zorn]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).
I think Haley might have been able to turn the tide if he'd been disarmed. She would've been able to greviously wound or kill him (multiple sneak attacks at 7D6/8D6 dmg per hit?). With him out of the picture, Enor would've been stuck there, or at least not able to travel very far. Even if he managed to overpower Haley, even Belkar would be able to track him down. I doubt that its very difficult to track down a stupid (half?) dragon fighter.


We still have very little evidence that Enor is "stupid." The only thing his falling victim to Vaarsuvius's Suggestion spell shows us is that he probably has a low will save, and he even managed to work around it (by blasting Elan with lightning) without Gannji's help. That he didn't make the distinction between claws and hands doesn't say much either; I don't recall anyone on the forums predicting that would be how he'd escape Suggestion, and we have a lot more time to think about it. What's more, in this latest strip it was him and not Gannji that remembered the poster.

So far Enor hasn't been giving the orders, and his tactics don't seem to require much thought (they don't seem to need it so far; bludgeoning was quite effective against Elan). That hardly makes him stupid, though.

If Haley had managed to kill Gannji, what would have happened? It's likely that she would have still gotten pinned, and, even if she didn't, she wasn't doing much damage to Enor even with her bow. If I were him, my next move would be to kill all three. Sure I may not get all the money, but now I've got no way to transport three people quickly and I'm pretty upset. I may decide to keep Elan alive and simply deliver him, but I can't think of any reason to spare the other two. If Enor is as stupid as you say, it's likely that he'd be even more likely to abandon the plan and avenge his friend.

[Draz74]

Separated again.
AARGH :smallyuk:

Meh. They won't be separated for too long this time:


This time hasn't included nearly so much foreshadowing of a long, dramatic separation.
Rich will know people don't want another long separation.
He already used up the book title "Don't Split the Party." He won't make that the main plot of another book.
Roy (the proactive, motivated guy who keeps the others going) isn't dead this time.
Each half of the party has at least one primary caster this time.
Neither half of the party is Cloistered this time. (Even if Haley and Belkar still are, that's only one in each half.)
Half of the party actually has a way to get around the world quickly (Wind Walk) now.



We still have very little evidence that Enor is "stupid."

Depends what you count as "evidence." We have Gannji's express opinion that Enor is indeed stupid. ("For the record, you'll also be safe if it tells you to sit on your brain.")

[dsavereide]

"Wait, do you have the -- "

Wanted poster? Or ?

[awibs]

so amused by this story arc and how it is developing.

[ss49]

C'mon, people, a Wanted poster will include somewhere on it a location or jurisdiction or such to bring your Wantee. Otherwise, what use is it?

[Zorn]

Depends what you count as "evidence." We have Gannji's express opinion that Enor is indeed stupid. ("For the record, you'll also be safe if it tells you to sit on your brain.")

I took this more as a gibe for Enor's recent mistake (sitting on his hands) rather than a comment on his overall intelligence. You're right, though; I should have mentioned that.

[RMS Oceanic]

So the party splits again. I don't think this will be a book spanning thing, but this Empress of Blood arc could go on as least as long as the banditry arc. Not that I mind, because it's definately interesting.

Thinking back on Don't Split the Party and Rich's understanding of each character, I think this split will be a lot healthier. Both groups have one of the Order's natural leaders, and a Spellcaster who respects them. Also, I trust Haley's right that Roy will put the dots together, so he should be able to come up with a plan to try and find them.

[Aurabolt]

What comes to mind is that even if they don't know about Haley's levels, there's two more important things to consider.

a) A good Rope is better than any other restraint by DC, and
b) A good Rogue has good Use Rope to outweigh good Escape Artist. There's a reason there is a +10 Circumstance Bonus for the captor.

And it's not like other people haven't managed to capture her before. Miko, for one. I admit she was prepared, but I always thought she could escape that restraint if she wanted to.

In terms of our other captives, I really feel bad that Elan always gets the shaft like this. Sure, give equality to all the members, but Elan always has to be the buttmonkey, when he's the one with the PrC and the Charisma for bonus spells? Luckily he stabilized or just got knocked out, and here's hoping he can manage to cast Lesser Restoration, and if things get worse, V has Still Spell. Most wizards, being in my experience in a captive position, tend to make sure of that.

[snikrept]

Everyone seems to be missing an important point: Haley didn't know where they were going. She didn't see the poster, so she didn't know who wanted them or where they were. They were teleporting out, and Haley had no way of tracking them once they did. And without V's people-finding spells, I'm not sure the rest of the party could (maybe Durkon has some divinations that will help, but it seems that V's the expert on that).

So it was critical that the party get that poster. Haley only knew that because V told her ("Deliver to Greenhilt!"). So she sacrificed herself to make sure that it was, because the poster could tell Roy something she couldn't.
I guess she doesn't have many ranks in pocket picking then ... seems like the best solution would have been to just steal the poster.

TBH not sure why the bounty hunters didn't just saunter over and pick up the dagger/poster lying on the ground. It's not like she made them vanish. And covering your tracks + free magic dagger for a few seconds delay, why not? Seems like a classic badguy blunder.

[SensFan]

I guess she doesn't have many ranks in pocket picking then ... seems like the best solution would have been to just steal the poster.

TBH not sure why the bounty hunters didn't just saunter over and pick up the dagger/poster lying on the ground. It's not like she made them vanish. And covering your tracks + free magic dagger for a few seconds delay, why not? Seems like a classic badguy blunder.
The entire point of Haley's plan was to a) make absolutely sure she got captured; and b) make it look like she's trying to free the other two. The combination will naturally lead the captors to want to get out as soon as possible.

[factotum]

C'mon, people, a Wanted poster will include somewhere on it a location or jurisdiction or such to bring your Wantee. Otherwise, what use is it?

Er, yes, we know it does, because we read it in the previous strip!

[ss49]

Er, yes, we know it does, because we read it in the previous strip!

But several posts are wondering how Roy will know where they went. Poster, Haley's knife, hurr durr. I am sure the knife was noted during the trip from their reunion to the desert.

[Killer Angel]

I really love the little flying dinosaurs over Gannji's head, instead of the usual birds for the cartoons' stunning effect. Very appropriate, and very nice touch!

[DSCrankshaw]

I guess she doesn't have many ranks in pocket picking then ... seems like the best solution would have been to just steal the poster.

TBH not sure why the bounty hunters didn't just saunter over and pick up the dagger/poster lying on the ground. It's not like she made them vanish. And covering your tracks + free magic dagger for a few seconds delay, why not? Seems like a classic badguy blunder.

Well, for one, it's not obvious that the knife is magic. It actually takes a spell to determine that an item is magic unless it has an obvious tell (such as it glows).

[Mariel Dragon]

Don't split the party! :smalltongue:
Also, what's bugging me a bit, in one of the previous comics they said they don't need Haley (if I'm correct). How do they know that she is not the female demon rouge who appears human (i.e. Sabine)?

[derfenrirwolv]

C'mon, people, a Wanted poster will include somewhere on it a location or jurisdiction or such to bring your Wantee. Otherwise, what use is it?

On the poster

Imperial Palace,
1 Hemmorage Road
Bleedingham
EOB

yay for the new large computer monitor



Well, for one, it's not obvious that the knife is magic. It actually takes a spell to determine that an item is magic unless it has an obvious tell (such as it glows).

of course its obvious its magic. Its got barbs and its COOL looking. Regular wepons don't look that cool. (metagaming for dummies)

[DSCrankshaw]

Don't split the party! :smalltongue:
Also, what's bugging me a bit, in one of the previous comics they said they don't need Haley (if I'm correct). How do they know that she is not the female demon rouge who appears human (i.e. Sabine)?

They don't. As a matter of fact, they're assuming that's exactly what she is, which is how she's worth 5,000 gp. They didn't need her because 5,000 gp pales beside 40,000 gp, and it wasn't worth the risk.

[Agi Hammerthief]

They don't. As a matter of fact, they're assuming that's exactly what she is, which is how she's worth 5,000 gp. They didn't need her because 5,000 gp pales beside 40,000 gp, and it wasn't worth the risk.her not being a demon might be a good point in Elan's defense. She's the only one that esay to prove she's not the one on the wanted poster.

so neither worth the risk, nor a wasted scroll of teleport

and whoever they deliver them to might feell the bounty hunters try to be greedy and screw them over, possibly with a fake Nale too.

[Adeptus]

Action Haley!

And quick thinking from V.

[slayerx]

her not being a demon might be a good point in Elan's defense. She's the only one that esay to prove she's not the one on the wanted poster.

so neither worth the risk, nor a wasted scroll of teleport

and whoever they deliver them to might feell the bounty hunters try to be greedy and screw them over, possibly with a fake Nale too.

Doubt that would help Elan at all...
Nothing stops nale from traveling around with other people... as far as anyone knows, Nale decided to pick up an extra human rouge as a companion
Same goes for V, if he is recognized as not being Nale's old wizard companion, nothing stops nale from picking up a new elven mage as a companion

The only real difference it will make is if the queen is willing to pay the 5,000 gp for each of them... on the one hand she may only be willing to pay for the ones in the past, or on the other hand she may accept anyone willing to side with nale... kinda depends on how much she hates nale and how much she's wants to save a few thousand gp

[Puschkin]

Meh, so the party is split once more ... I just hope they will be reunited faster this time. Call me oldfashioned or simple minded but I liked OOTS the best when the entire party made a dungeon crawl.

[binyamin20]

Isn't the paper the wasted teleport scroll?:smallconfused:

[Tundar]

Uhhhh a power word.
I love those. And the tiny flying dinos too!

Too bad V rolled a 1 on the d4 for stun, else Haley could have gone sneak attack bezerk on Gannji.

[wzeller]

Hey, how come Gannji didn't drop everything he was carrying when he was stunned?
According to the SRD:
[B]Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held,

And therein you answered your own question.

You don't drop everything you are carrying - you drop everything you are holding. Otherwise, every time somebody got stunned, they'd be naked at the end of the round. Great party trick, for sure, but not how the spell works.

The only thing he was holding was the poster, and he dropped it.

[slayerx]

Isn't the paper the wasted teleport scroll?:smallconfused:

No it's not... in the first panel, The lizardman gannji, had the wanted poster in one hand and the teleport scroll in the other. in the second panel, V used STUN and the teleport scroll fizzled into nothing (when you screw up a spell cast from a scroll, the scroll is wasted)... so Gannji only had the wanted poster which he dropped when Haley pushed him

[Arrowstorm122]

without reading this 5 pages, i will say, a very good idea by Haley. and of course, the Giant who wrote it. its very awesome right now, im happy that i soon get to see if my theory is correct about this.
maybe this also is new side of the gate fight?

[SmaugTheYounger]

her not being a demon might be a good point in Elan's defense. She's the only one that esay to prove she's not the one on the wanted poster.

so neither worth the risk, nor a wasted scroll of teleport

and whoever they deliver them to might feell the bounty hunters try to be greedy and screw them over, possibly with a fake Nale too.
It would be easy for a cleric/druid/paladin to detect (not) evil on Haley, but not for Ganji and Enor.

(snip)
We have no idea where on the continent they are, how far away the EoB is, and heck, they could be in the country already. The Teleport could have taken the bounty hunters across the continent or across the city. Anyway, if they're not already in Bleedingham, Wind Walk will get them there soon enough.
Which is the point, I guess. And even if someone stole the Wanted poster, Roy and Co. could have very well already seen another one on their inquiries and connect the dots from that. Shouldn't take them more than two or three episodes.

Looks like the OOTS is being railroaded to the empress of blood, who might be Elans stepmother, or Sereni, or someone completely unrelated, with a plot twist that wrecks everyones mind. :smalltongue:

[Edhelras]

Just to nit-pick here, but ought'nt Gannji be holding on to Enor when he was using the Teleport scroll? On both his attempts at reading the scroll, they'er not holding on to each other, and on the last reading, they're clearly standing apart from each other.

He-he, LOL why work when you can sit in front of your PC thinking such meaningless thoughts... :smallmad:

[Kareasint]

Roy, Durkon and Belkar will find the dagger and wanted poster rather fast.

After all, someone just fired off a signal flare (V's PW Stun). One of them will probably close enough to hear the PW at this point and come running. Belkar can track down the bow.

I wonder if Durkon is also 15th level now. That sort of makes finding lost party members a lot easier:

Discern Location (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/discernLocation.htm)

Gannji and Enor can port out but the Order's remaining members will know exactly where others are (after Durkon prays to Thor).

[Edhelras]

Belkar can track down the bow.


Belkar... track down.... *snicker*

:smallamused:

[RickDaily12]

Hooray Haley!:smallbiggrin:

It's really nice that instead of running off to save her own skin, she's putting it on the line to protect other Order members. Good shot, btw. It's great that the lizards don't understand.

I just hope Roy recognizes the dagger... are we sure he knows it's hers?

Well, unless of course, they find the bow.

[Yendor]

Belkar should recognize the dagger, at least.

[Snake-Aes]

Just to nit-pick here, but ought'nt Gannji be holding on to Enor when he was using the Teleport scroll? On both his attempts at reading the scroll, they'er not holding on to each other, and on the last reading, they're clearly standing apart from each other.

He-he, LOL why work when you can sit in front of your PC thinking such meaningless thoughts... :smallmad:

As you'll see on previous teleports seen in comic, that's not quite necessary. As long as everyone is in touch range of someone else within the scroll's effect, it seems to satisfy the "touch" requirement.

[Needle]

Well, Haley being captured might prove easier for V and Elan on the future, tough I feel it won't be any bad for them once the kidnappers offers them for the reward

[fehler]

Can't wait to see Roy and Belkar in their "Thog" and "Yikyik" disguises. And the Durkon reunion with Hilgaya! Whee, its aboot time! (oops, wrong accent.)

[HandofShadows]

Haley is tricky. :smallsmile: I wonder if there will be anything left of the Empire of Blood by the time the Order is done with it. If you have not noticed they leave a LOT of destruction in their wake most of the time. :smallbiggrin:

[Jagos]

Belkar should recognize the dagger, at least.

No need. He sees the poster for Elan, then the disheveled goodies, I'm sure he can figure out that Nale is involved.

But he has to see the poster first...

[Zorn]

So long as we're talking about teleportation, haven't people been attempting to determine caster level based on how many people the caster can bring along?

Now we know Rich is a bit lenient on the rules for teleporting as the caster doesn't seem to need to touch whoever they bring along (as shown here, for example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0513.html)) or else is able to transport far more than should ever be possible (if I'm not mistaken, the DC for this should be in the hundreds, epic magic or not (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html)).

The latest strip shows Gannji teleporting five medium-sized creatures (Enor counts as two, I believe), and as per the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Teleport.htm) that would make him a 15th level arcane caster at least.

I'm fairly confident that Gannji is not a caster at all but is instead using Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Usemagicdevice.htm). The site doesn't specify how much higher of a DC it is to teleport five people (or even if you can), but I'm guessing the DC would be rather high (it's 25, I think, for just one person). Any corrections to my horrendous understanding of the rules would be welcome; just thought I'd bring this up! :smallsigh:


her not being a demon might be a good point in Elan's defense. She's the only one that esay to prove she's not the one on the wanted poster.

so neither worth the risk, nor a wasted scroll of teleport

and whoever they deliver them to might feell the bounty hunters try to be greedy and screw them over, possibly with a fake Nale too.

I'm still holding to the theory that this Empress is looking to punish Nale publicly (the rest of my [almost certainly incorrect] speculation went on along the lines of: she was framing him for the murder of Tyrinar in order to remove his claim to the throne, he might squeal and/or plot revenge, etc.). If that's the case, she may not care whether Elan is Nale or, well, Not-Nale so long as enough spectators believe he is.


of course its obvious its magic. Its got barbs and its COOL looking. Regular wepons don't look that cool. (metagaming for dummies)

If all those long hours of playing RPGs have taught me one thing, it's that the more impractical a weapon looks the stronger it is. Truly an important life skill.

[sihnfahl]

How do they know that she is not the female demon rouge who appears human (i.e. Sabine)?
Perhaps because when she started losing, she didn't revert to demon type and start using natural abilities?

[Scarlet Knight]

I still think gutting a stunned Gannji would have been an effective alternative...

[Shale]

So then you have a really, really pissed-off dragonkin who's already laid out one of your melee fighters with one hit, against an archer rogue with no bow and a wizard who can't so much as lift a finger. I don't like those odds.

[factotum]

So long as we're talking about teleportation, haven't people been attempting to determine caster level based on how many people the caster can bring along?


It was assumed a long time ago that Rich is not going with the official limits of the spell. Otherwise the wizard NPC who had nothing better to do with his life than get drunk in Cliffport (see strip #340) would have had to be 18th level, and it seems unlikely Azure City had anyone that high level on their books.

[Zorn]

It was assumed a long time ago that Rich is not going with the official limits of the spell. Otherwise the wizard NPC who had nothing better to do with his life than get drunk in Cliffport (see strip #340) would have had to be 18th level, and it seems unlikely Azure City had anyone that high level on their books.

Oh, I agree with you; Rich has modified the spell enough that basing a character's level off its use would be rather pointless. I'm not sure everyone else does, though, which is why I thought it worth mentioning. I seem to recall a discussion or two recently in which the subject was mentioned (one debate was whether Redcloak should lash out at Tsukiko or not, and a few members were trying to use this very spell to determine her level - I'll see if I can't dig it up). Maybe I'm misremembering; it wouldn't be the first time. :smallredface:

Edit: Ah, yes, I found it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146382). Now before I get any more off-topic, I'll end my tangent here.

[hymie]

First thought: shiny pink letters!
EDIT: After reading it a second time, I have to ask; how does Haley know what the poster says?

Haley doesn't have to know what the poster says. She only knows that V wants it delivered to Roy.

[Starbuck_II]

The latest strip shows Gannji teleporting five medium-sized creatures (Enor counts as two, I believe), and as per the rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/Teleport.htm) that would make him a 15th level arcane caster at least.

I'm fairly confident that Gannji is not a caster at all but is instead using Use Magic Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Usemagicdevice.htm). The site doesn't specify how much higher of a DC it is to teleport five people (or even if you can), but I'm guessing the DC would be rather high (it's 25, I think, for just one person). Any corrections to my horrendous understanding of the rules would be welcome; just thought I'd bring this up! :smallsigh:
.

No, that makes it a caster lv 15th scroll. You can buy a scroll with highher caster (just costs more).

[SoC175]

Umm, why does everyone think that Haley nailed down the Wanted poster with Nale's face on it?

The Lizard guy clearly states that Haley cost him a *teleport* scroll. That's how the others are going to find them. A teleport scroll with no clue where you should teleport to doesn't really help.

Where else would he go? The bad guys just used teleport to go collect their bounty, so that's where they are. Or maybe the nearest embassy or outpost of the EoB?

[DabblerWizard]

I hope Roy figures out what's going on. I mean, that would be the direct approach, as opposed to accidentally stumbling upon the lizard mercenaries later on, by accident.

I also don't think Haley could protect V and Elan nearly as well as any of Roy, Durkon, or Belkar even.

Also, I assumed that the lizard told V his teleportation scroll had been messed up due to the stun word spell. Maybe I wasn't looking close enough.

[Orzel]

I'm beginning to dislike Haley. Her use of bluffs and double bluffs annoys me.

[Person_Man]

Very clever. But as others have opined, their plan depends on the following:

No one will pick up a magical dagger (which is masterwork even for those who can't detect magic) lying in the middle of the road.
Roy, Belkar, or Durkon will make a successful Spot check, which they all demonstrably suck at.
That they will realize that the Elan et al have been gone for too long, recognize Haley's dagger, and guess that whoever kidnapped them mistook their appearances for the Linear Guild members.
That they will somehow be able to get to Bleedingham without the ability to Teleport.


With any luck, whoever pays the ransom will also take 5 minutes to use Divination magic to determine their real identities. But who know. Fun and completely unexpected twist though. Keep up the awesomeness.

[Me!]

wait a minute... it is not the wanted poster haley hit, it is the teleport scroll! so if roy/durkon uses the scroll, they get to the same place v,elan and haley is!

[DSCrankshaw]

wait a minute... it is not the wanted poster haley hit, it is the teleport scroll! so if roy/durkon uses the scroll, they get to the same place v,elan and haley is!

As has been stated earlier in this thread--this is incorrect. The teleport scroll disappeared when it fizzled, and the remaining paper in his hand not only looks like the wanted poster, you can see Wanted written at the top. And a teleport scroll does not designate the location to which you teleport, and even if it did, none of Roy, Durkon, and Belkar can use a teleport scroll.

[Kish]

I'm beginning to dislike Haley. Her use of bluffs and double bluffs annoys me.


I don't play classes that don't have hide and move silently as class skill or can't cast invisibility. I'm Stealth biased.

Odd juxtaposition.

[warrl]

That would have been a perfect occasion for Power Word Blind. Try reading that Teleport scroll now.

But then they would not find the person who's hunting for them. They don't know who that is; perhaps it's Girard.

[Snake-Aes]

But then they would not find the person who's hunting for them. They don't know who that is; perhaps it's Girard.

The wanted poster just doesn't link the whole thing to Girard.

[k_bukie]

Lots of speculation based on other speculation. What are the facts, here?

- Enor and Gannji talked about a bounty in reference to the poster Gannji held in his hand.
- V instructed Haley to deliver the poster to Roy. Haley complied by spearing the poster with a thrown knife just off the road near where the Order was supposed to meet up.
- Haley wanted to get captured, for some reason.
- The bounty on Nale is popular enough that Enor and Gannji expect most of the town to know about it already, and for that reason they were teleporting out immediately.

This, to me, leads to this speculation:
- Even Haley is smart enough to know that leaving V and Elan by themselves is a recipe for disaster.
- Roy will find the poster first, because it's not news to anyone else who would find it interesting. The dagger may be, of course, which is the only real stretch in assuming Roy will get to it untouched.
- Roy, upon finding the dagger and the poster, will know only that Haley has something to do with the bounty for Nale, and that the Empress of Blood is offering it. He knows where to go and basic context, which is all he needs.

[slayerx]

But then they would not find the person who's hunting for them. They don't know who that is; perhaps it's Girard.

Nothing stops haley from pinning down that poster when Gannji is blinded...
Blinding him might have the added benefit of stalling them long enough for Roy and the others to find them... or perhaps other bounty hunters to fight them for the bounty delaying them even furthar

Though the reason BLIND wasn't used s probably because V did not have it prepared... it's a high level spell and while V may have developed an appreciation for spells with no somatic components he probably feels he has more useful high level spells that he should prepare

[Tommi Atkins]

I am aware of the neccessity of the plot. However.

1) The party just got split. And it isnt that long since it was reunited. We are not seeing the OOTS, we are seeing Individuals and small pairs of characters.

2) I had a serious sense of , "Just how high a level are those bounty hunters?" We have Three Paid up fully concious members of a guild that , eventually, will save the planet and reality as a whole. They have been in two strips, hidiously caned by a couple of lizards who appear about as equally trained as TLG, who took about D10 damage in the whole fight.

I know the story has to continue , and Roy muttering "stupid railroad plot" is one of my favorite moments.

Here, a couple of cowboys simply stroll in and take out 2 powerful characters and a bard who have defeated NPC's many times their level before.

3) Still good though!:smallwink:

[RMcMurtry]

They don't have to be that powerful. They neutralized V with a poison arrow, so in a lot of ways they were just facing Haley and Elan. Bard and rogue aren't exactly power classes, especially in close combat. How did Belkar put it? Almost like the blue one is a trained and experienced warrior facing a couple of glorified pickpockets?

And so they can't teleport. As long as they know where to go, windwalk is a wonderful travel spell. My group uses it frequently.

[Amarsir]

The mistaken identity should resolve itself pretty quickly, I think. It most likely just opens the door to something else, whether Haley-, Elan-, or Girard-related, or some other intrigue. Which is good, since I can't help but notice we just split the party again!

[RickDaily12]

Lots of speculation based on other speculation. What are the facts, here?

- Enor and Gannji talked about a bounty in reference to the poster Gannji held in his hand.
- V instructed Haley to deliver the poster to Roy. Haley complied by spearing the poster with a thrown knife just off the road near where the Order was supposed to meet up.
- Haley wanted to get captured, for some reason.
- The bounty on Nale is popular enough that Enor and Gannji expect most of the town to know about it already, and for that reason they were teleporting out immediately.

From here, I agree with you, though tiny nitpick- we already know why Haley wanted with them.



This, to me, leads to this speculation:
- Even Haley is smart enough to know that leaving V and Elan by themselves is a recipe for disaster.

From here on, I disagree completely.

For starters, we have already seen evidence that V and Elan do not make good solo partners- especially when alone. The "Don't Split the Party" arc was clear evidence of this fact. They have different enough views, and neither know how to take care of each other.

Haley isn't better than Roy at this, but she's better than no one.



- Roy will find the poster first, because it's not news to anyone else who would find it interesting. The dagger may be, of course, which is the only real stretch in assuming Roy will get to it untouched.

You sure about that?

Because, during the entire second row of panels of Strip 612, we already learned that Roy and the others were expected to be back "in about an hour".

Or, think of it this way- Elan, being the dramatic guy, maybe made an exaggeration- and they could be back in about 20 or so minutes.

We know Roy will be back within that timeframe, and given that we just left a BIG "where's the rest" storyarc, I find it unlikely we're about to waste 60 strips on the party alone waiting for them to reform, and I find it VERY unlikely that Roy won't get there first to the poster. Will he know the dagger is hers? I don't know, I've asked that question, but Belkar -is- likely to know.

And besides, you've said it yourself- If the lizards were to teleport because so many people know about it, then I find it unlikely that the -townsfolk- would care about a 2 year old Wanted poster.


- Roy, upon finding the dagger and the poster, will know only that Haley has something to do with the bounty for Nale, and that the Empress of Blood is offering it. He knows where to go and basic context, which is all he needs.

Oh, so is that a "Fighters are dumb" joke? Oh that's it, we are SO going now.:smallamused::smalltongue:

You've forgotten that this has ALREADY happened. Nale shaved, and then Elan still passed as Nale- despite against his own will. What I find likely is that the empress doesn't know that Nale has a twin brother. And the lizards thought that they changed disguises to avoid matching mugshots.

Besides, ALL THREE of those Order members that were captured fit the bill perfectly. Even if he has doubts that they were not captured because of the bounty, he would likely double-check and ask Durkon to locate Elan or V (since Haley is still Cloistered) and he'd know then for sure. Like Haley said, accurately...

:haley:"Roy's a smart boy- He'll figure it out."

The Order knows very well that a misunderstanding is always going to occur with the Elan-Nale problem. There's no reason to eliminate yet another mix-up accident now. Roy of all people isn't likely to forget it.

Besides, there is NO WAY he's willing to leave for Girard with just Belkar and Durkon. No chance.

I think you're being quick to assume. Those claims are -very- logical, and perhaps factual.:smallamused:

[Flurry of Doom]

Seeing as the Oracle told Roy that Belkar wouldmdraw his lat breath... ever... before the end of the year, I find it comprehensible that this would somehow result in his death.
These bounty hunters have, after all, been shown to be formidable foes.
Note that Belkar is indeed my favorite character, so I hope this isn't the case.

[RickDaily12]

Seeing as the Oracle told Roy that Belkar wouldmdraw his lat breath... ever... before the end of the year, I find it comprehensible that this would somehow result in his death.
These bounty hunters have, after all, been shown to be formidable foes.
Note that Belkar is indeed my favorite character, so I hope this isn't the case.

Doubt it.

The Oracle said it'd be before the end of the year. The Giant is probably not going to off Belkar that easily. Especially if it's his "last breath ever".

I mean, face it. If it's his last breath- ever-, Belkar's at a young age. Were he ever killed before the end of the story, Roy's likely to just have him raised.

So something must be stopping him from being raised.

My money is that he gets eaten by the Snarl at the end of the story.:smallamused:

[Kish]

2) I had a serious sense of , "Just how high a level are those bounty hunters?"
One possible answer to this is that they're a level-appropriate encounter. Quite possibly a level-appropriate encounter for the entire Order despite only having been encountered by half of it--hey, it's not their fault the Order split up.

Such is life in a D&D-based webcomic with no fourth wall.

[The Swordinator]

Hmmm, I wonder where they're teleporting to? And how is Roy:roy: supposed to find out where they are?

[silvadel]

Ok -- you see a really exotic dagger sticking out of a wanted poster in the middle of the square.

Do you pick it up?

I would sincerely doubt it -- it looks like the kind of set up that would get you KILLED. People just dont leave something around like that in that way without a purpose.

At worst someone is in the shadows ready to destroy anyone who touches the dagger. At best someone is going to want it back and hunt you down.

[slayerx]

[deleted]........

[The MunchKING]

why would Haley be beat up? When you go for a bounty, healthy people are usualy worth more.

That's Slaves. :smallwink:

Bountys tend to only care about "dead or Alive". Or possibly "Well enough to answer questions". :smalltongue:

[SaintRidley]

Hmmm, I wonder where they're teleporting to? And how is Roy:roy: supposed to find out where they are?

Read thread, obtain answers.

[The MunchKING]

Perhaps because when she started losing, she didn't revert to demon type and start using natural abilities?

Heck WE know (although I don't think they did) that Sabine had Level drain on touch. The mere fact that he COULD grapple her without having his levels eaten down to nothing would clue any someone who knew Sabine.

[The MunchKING]

Very clever. But as others have opined, their plan depends on the following:


With any luck, whoever pays the ransom will also take 5 minutes to use Divination magic to determine their real identities. But who know. Fun and completely unexpected twist though. Keep up the awesomeness.

There are apperently Aristocrat freindly prestige classes that let you fool Magic divinations. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0595.html)


For starters, we have already seen evidence that V and Elan do not make good solo partners- especially when alone. The "Don't Split the Party" arc was clear evidence of this fact. They have different enough views, and neither know how to take care of each other.

Well when V is still mostly sane she's pretty good at Getting the Most out of Elan's spellcasting abilities. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html)


I mean, face it. If it's his last breath- ever-, Belkar's at a young age. Were he ever killed before the end of the story, Roy's likely to just have him raised.

Roy doesn't WANT him back though.

[Solara]

I can't believe so many people are worried about the dagger getting stolen. Unless there just happens to be another party of PCs wandering around that are good at making spot checks, that dagger is perfectly safe and Haley is awesome.

Also, I noticed a few people assuming the whole 'Elan is not Nale' thing would be cleared up right away and they'd all be free to go or something...but, um, I think even with being found completely innocent without a doubt, a lot depends on whether the Empress of Blood is as gleefully Evil as her title would suggest. "What do we have here, a couple of Good adventurers? Excellent, toss 'em in the sandworm pit for a little after dinner entertainment!" :smallamused:

[Woodsman]

I can't believe so many people are worried about the dagger getting stolen. Unless there just happens to be another party of PCs wandering around that are good at making spot checks, that dagger is perfectly safe and Haley is awesome.

Er, yeah, given the characters' history with Spot checks, I wouldn't be so sure.

Well, mostly Belkar.

[Herald Alberich]

Doubt it.

The Oracle said it'd be before the end of the year. The Giant is probably not going to off Belkar that easily. Especially if it's his "last breath ever".

I mean, face it. If it's his last breath- ever-, Belkar's at a young age. Were he ever killed before the end of the story, Roy's likely to just have him raised.

So something must be stopping him from being raised.

My money is that he gets eaten by the Snarl at the end of the story.:smallamused:


Funnily enough, I don't think any in-story effect will prevent Belkar from being raised.


Roy doesn't WANT him back though.

Precisely. Two reasons here:

1. The prophecy was made to Roy. He is expecting that Belkar will die, permanently. So, he's not going to bother to raise him, even if he could, because it would break the prophecy (which of course makes it self-fulfilling).

2. Roy has already confirmed to both Haley and the deva that he only keeps Belkar around because he's useful and does less Evil with the party than he would on his own. If Belkar's dead, he can't do any Evil at all. Roy's not about to turn him loose on the world again when there's finally a prison - death itself - guaranteed to hold him permanently.

[Conuly]

1. The prophecy was made to Roy. He is expecting that Belkar will die, permanently. So, he's not going to bother to raise him, even if he could, because it would break the prophecy (which of course makes it self-fulfilling).

I think he's not going to bother because he just doesn't like the guy. I mean, he might use "The prophecy says it won't work...!" as an excuse if called on it, but... who's gonna call him on it? This is Belkar!

[Swordpriest]

Also, I noticed a few people assuming the whole 'Elan is not Nale' thing would be cleared up right away and they'd all be free to go or something...but, um, I think even with being found completely innocent without a doubt, a lot depends on whether the Empress of Blood is as gleefully Evil as her title would suggest. "What do we have here, a couple of Good adventurers? Excellent, toss 'em in the sandworm pit for a little after dinner entertainment!" :smallamused:

A very good point. And if she learns that Elan is Nale's brother, and she has it in for Nale, and she's evil .... well, if you can't kill the guy you're really after, taking it out on his brother will do! :smallwink:

[factotum]

Hmmm, I wonder where they're teleporting to? And how is Roy:roy: supposed to find out where they are?

Look carefully at the wanted poster--we got a good close-up of it in the previous strip. You might notice something that gives a clue where they're heading.

[lothos]

I was just thinking about the latest developments and then something occurred to me.

Maybe this whole thing with the bounty hunters has nothing to do with Nale at all. Maybe Girad is behind this. OK, probably been reading too much conspiracy fiction but ever since the order arrived where Girad's gate was supposed to be, I keep going back to the comment in Strip 277 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) that he hid his gate behind an endless series of illusions, replying on the power of deception to protect the gate.

I took that to mean that as well as magical deception, he would use mundane means. I wonder if anything the illusion of Draketooth said can be trusted, perhaps he did know Soon would not break his oath and only pretended to think he did as part of some elaborate deception.

Perhaps now these two bounty hunters are not after Nale at all. They just are trying to catch some of the Order to take them back to Draketooth (or somewhere else safe to interrogate them). They used some kind of magic to find out about each member of the order after scrying on them in the desert, then made up a plausible wanted poster.... So the rest of the order would be deceived to go look for those they took elsewhere... planning all along for the poster to somehow get left behind.....

OK, in the real world this is far fetched and on a level with many other conspiracy theories in terms of credibility.... but we are actually talking about a story here where the author has surprised me so many times with twists I didn't see coming that I'm starting to second guess almost every character's intentions...... I'm just waiting to find out O-Chul is actually a blackguard and Xykon is a a celestial :-)

Seriously though, does this idea about Girad seem plausible to anyone else ? It's just speculation, but it keeps going round in my mind. I'd welcome comments or thoughts about it.

Cheers.

[Kareasint]

Well, Iothos, for that to occur, Girard would have to know about the Order from way earlier back when they were dungeon crawling and fighting at Azure City. Hard to get that kind of info off a single scry. Girard could cast other spells to research information but it seems a little elaborate to set something like this up. This is likely something to do with Nale's activities and the bounty hunters think that Elan is Nale.

I still think the other members of the Order will enter the area rapidly and soon due to hearing the power word. They can locate V, Elan and Haley through magical means. Getting there is going to be a trick depending on how far away it is.

[Garwain]

According to the map (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) the OOTS is quite close to The Empire of Blood since they left the dessert to the north-north-east. Roy counted only the biggest city, so most probably they are in Dictatoria, which would logically be the first city for them to visit.

We know that to get out the desert it's a 4day trip. So with windwalk at 60mph, they can cover the distance from Dictatoria to Empire of Blood in 1 day.

Interesting to mention is that we also know that the Azure fleet is epic teleported to an island close to these lands, which we see on the map as well. The Azurites are maybe 4 days away and since the Empire of Blood has a seaport, I bet there will be another invasion at hand!

[WreckedElf]

So if Nale has a reputation in this area, maybe Girard thinks Elan is Nale. Girard saw the "Nale" at the false coordinates when the trap blew up, thus he things the Order is all working with Nale. Thus he tips off some bounty hunters to start looking for him.... maybe?



And as for the debate over Haley's actions, I suspect that had V, Elan and Haley not been taken at a disadvantage, then they probably could have beaten the bounty hunters. So letting herself get captured, her rogue skills gives them a better chance at escaping, and arranging a fight to their advantage... Also, and perhaps more importantly, she's a chaotic good-ish rogue whose love interest was just kidnapped. Do you really think a silly thing like a risky gambit is going to stop her? Seriously, that's what her alignment\class combination was designed for.

And about the dagger and poster. We don't know how long is left until they were expected to meet with Roy.. he may be there in minutes. It's night time, so there not much pedestrian traffic. And this is not Greysky city so the night isn't swarming with theives at all times. And as in my previous statement, I don't think Haley is scared of a little risk.

Though I suspect that with all that risk involved, at least some of it will not work in Haley's favor... here's my prediction for the upcomming event:
Roy, Belkar and Durkon meet up... the dagger and poster are clearly in the background nearby. They all fail their spot check, wait around for a while a go to the inn.

[Dark Matter]

2. Roy has already confirmed to both Haley and the deva that he only keeps Belkar around because he's useful and does less Evil with the party than he would on his own. If Belkar's dead, he can't do any Evil at all. Roy's not about to turn him loose on the world again when there's finally a prison - death itself - guaranteed to hold him permanently.Agreed. And I'd love to see Belkar replaced with some Paladin, preferably O'Chul.

And on a side note, that wanted posting hints Nale may have replaced his elf-mage.

[Scactha]

Ack, they just got back together! Not another party split for a hundred strips :smallmad:

[Shale]

And on a side note, that wanted posting hints Nale may have replaced his elf-mage.

The wanted poster includes Yikyik, meaning it's out of date by some 650 strips at least.

[silvadel]

Agreed. And I'd love to see Belkar replaced with some Paladin, preferably O'Chul.

And on a side note, that wanted posting hints Nale may have replaced his elf-mage.

They could always replace him with an epic-monk with a grudge.

[Adeptus]

What is that blue draconian thing?

4th edition has Dragon Born, but I suppose this has to be something else? Help me out D&D people.

[DSCrankshaw]

What is that blue draconian thing?

4th edition has Dragon Born, but I suppose this has to be something else? Help me out D&D people.

Half-dragon, probably, though there were a few other possibilities being batted around earlier.

[plasma ball]

why in the world would he have two telleport spells bought?? It's almost like he knew that he would loose one.
O, right. Plot. Or side plot/quest.:smallsmile:

[DSCrankshaw]

why in the world would he have two telleport spells bought?? It's almost like he knew that he would loose one.
O, right. Plot. Or side plot/quest.:smallsmile:

Or they frequently have to travel quickly (not exactly far fetched for bounty hunters who don't want to be carting bounties all over the continent, and thus giving them an increased chance of escape), so they stock up whenever they have the chance.

[Crod]

Yay! Isn't power word stun an 8th level spell? If so I think it's the first time we see Vaarsuvius use one, I guess there has been a level up lately.

[Doug Lampert]

why in the world would he have two telleport spells bought?? It's almost like he knew that he would loose one.
O, right. Plot. Or side plot/quest.:smallsmile:

Or he might roll a 1 on UMD. You can't take ten, you can't assist another, and on a 1 you can't use that particular item for 24 hours.

So a second scroll is potentially REALLY useful unless his UMD check is at +28 or more he can fail on any teleport scroll and need a backup. If we go BtB then it's him + 3 medium or smaller creatures and one large creature, for a caster level of 15 or more, for a UMD of +34 needed to guarantee he doesn't need a backup.

[Kareasint]

Yay! Isn't power word stun an 8th level spell? If so I think it's the first time we see Vaarsuvius use one, I guess there has been a level up lately.

Yes, it is 8th level and that makes V at least 15th level. As I stated before, Durkon could be 15th level also which would make for some interesting spell use.

[Shatteredtower]

Just two things:

1. Technically, Haley is obeying "Don't split the party!" guidelines.

2. This is a case in which Search checks are more effective than Spot checks. Even Thog could find that dagger, though he might need to take 20 on the check. Roy could probably find it taking 10.

[Swordpriest]

It would make sense to have a good supply of extra teleport scrolls if that's your main way of making a quick exit after grabbing people who may have high-level friends, or who may be wanted other bounty hunters who are none too scrupulous about taking your quarry from you.

Plus, they're extremely handy. I mean, if I could get teleport scrolls for different destinations in real life, I'd have about 100 of them. :smallsmile:

[Me!]

As has been stated earlier in this thread--this is incorrect. The teleport scroll disappeared when it fizzled, and the remaining paper in his hand not only looks like the wanted poster, you can see Wanted written at the top. And a teleport scroll does not designate the location to which you teleport, and even if it did, none of Roy, Durkon, and Belkar can use a teleport scroll.

ok thanks, now i know :smallsmile:

[RickDaily12]

1. The prophecy was made to Roy. He is expecting that Belkar will die, permanently. So, he's not going to bother to raise him, even if he could, because it would break the prophecy (which of course makes it self-fulfilling).

2. Roy has already confirmed to both Haley and the deva that he only keeps Belkar around because he's useful and does less Evil with the party than he would on his own. If Belkar's dead, he can't do any Evil at all. Roy's not about to turn him loose on the world again when there's finally a prison - death itself - guaranteed to hold him permanently.

Who's to say that this means he's just eager to watch Belkar die though?

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

I don't think it fits nicely.

Because the entire world doesn't hate him. And more importantly, Roy doesn't have a lot of people he can trust with this. Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds. I see no reason why he'd ignore Belkar. Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

Belkar has constantly proven his loyality, and he's useful as an Order member. If he were to randomly die, but his body was saved, I see little reason not to reraise him. Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil? Of course not! So why is this different?

And don't bother mentioning the Astral Deva's warning to Roy. He batted her off easily as it was, and his logic was sound. He needs people, no matter what their alignment is, to defeat the Snarl and Xykon. Sure, he wants him to do as little evil as possible, and Death is a very good prison, but I think he needs to care MORE about saving the universe from destruction than letting fallen members rot in the ground because you're maximizing the chance that the party member won't run off and kill an innocent (which, to be fair, was rather long ago.) Belkar had MAJOR character development. He's no longer the crazy guy (or at least as much) that's in this quest to kill anymore.
So because of that, I don't agree. You may be right, but your conclusion comes to me as anticlimatical and too simple. There must be more to it that Belkar would not ever live again. And, assuming Roy was right about them saving the world before the end of year, and assuming Belkar is alive before the final battles, then I stick to my theory. It has to be the Snarl.

[Werbaer]

Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds.
In #649 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html), Durkon said he prepared ressurrection that morning because of the sending spell. And Haley had to steal the diamond from the cast page as spell component, since Durkons' were stolen.

[Kish]

Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

Belkar has constantly proven his loyality,
Guaranteed not going to screw with the Order? Loyalty? I thought we were talking about Belkar.


Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil?

If I was in a full-PvP-allowed, you-can't-leave-if-you-want-to, group where one of the PCs was blatantly and unsubtly Chaotic Evil, had already tried to kill another member of the Order, asked an Oracle as the one question he could ask if he would ever get to kill anyone from a list of people which included another member of the Order and me, and only didn't betray the Order because he was too stupid to realize the main villain could remove his Mark of Justice--ignoring the several ways this would never happen? I would have killed him myself a long time ago. And burned the body to make sure no one carelessly resurrected him.


Of course not! So why is this different?

You mean, other than the little fact that it's real life for the members of the Order, not a game?


Belkar had MAJOR character development.

He's doing a very bad job of faking no longer being completely psychotic, and that's what you call MAJOR character development? I have to wonder what you'd say he had if he actually changed at all.

[hamishspence]

In DStP, it's his attachment to Mr Scruffy that is described as the major change- giving him a redeeming feature.

[k_bukie]

He's doing a very bad job of faking no longer being completely psychotic, and that's what you call MAJOR character development? I have to wonder what you'd say he had if he actually changed at all.

He has changed, just not in the way he's trying to fake. With Mr. Scruffy, he now cares about something other than himself, and beyond the lust/hate toggle he used in the past for everything.

[SaintRidley]

Who's to say that this means he's just eager to watch Belkar die though?

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

Think of it more like how Roy would see it.

The Oracle is an oracle and gives accurate predictions.
"Belkar will take his last breath. Ever." - so I have paraphrased the Oracle.
So when Belkar dies, why would Roy try to get Belkar raised? He has good reason to think it wouldn't work.


Besides, raising him would only serve to later bring needless pain and suffering into the world. Raising Belkar is almost certainly an evil act that just would not fly with Roy's conscience.

[Herald Alberich]

I'll admit, my theory isn't rock solid, but even THEN- The whole world doesn't completely hate Belkar. Someone like Jenny, if she heard of his death, might pay quite a penny to bring him back. Or maybe someone else completely new or forgotten to us.

I suppose that's possible, but Belkar has spent a lifetime doing his level best to be hated, though he didn't realize it until his Hippie Vision Quest. Jenny or others like her might feel a bit sad, but they're not likely to go to the trouble of raising him, which is a huge hardship if you're not mid- to high-level. Powerful people wouldn't bother with Belkar in that manner.


I really want to stress that this is Belkar's last breath. This is huge. Would the Giant seriously say: "Yep everyone, sucks to be Belkar, because the world hates him too much to bother to raise him." I would be bashing heads through walls if he did. And every other Oracle prophecy (that has a seperate plot around it) otherwise has been climatic. That one sounds rather... dull.

Haley had that long bit with Nale
Vaarsuvius had gone insane with "ultimate arcane power"
Roy had EVERYONE freak out that he forgot about Azure city
Belkar died from -insert cause of death here- and everyone hates him so he wasn't raised.

I don't think it fits nicely.


Well, it was a freebie, separate from the plot-tastic Strip of Prophecies. Belkar's other prophecy, the one from that strip, has been fulfilled. But I think Belkar's impending death will be dramatic for a reason other than its permanency. Epic battle, dies in defense of Mr. Scruffy (or vice-versa, then dies in battle raging at the cat's death), something like that.

But once he dies, there might be some angsting about whether he's redeemed himself and deserves to come back, but the consensus, I think, will be no.


Because the entire world doesn't hate him. And more importantly, Roy doesn't have a lot of people he can trust with this. Durkon has Resurrection prepared constantly, and lots of diamonds. I see no reason why he'd ignore Belkar. Because if Belkar dies, who replaces him who is guarenteed not going to screw with the Order?

The obvious first answer is: one of the four remaining paladins of the Sapphire Guard. Probably not Hinjo or Thanh, since they're busy leading people. If Roy wants a ranger, one of the elven allies. Maybe a fighting type that's risen through the ranks of the Azurites, like Daigo and Kazumi. The Order is not without allies here, and while few of them are as high-level as the Order, they're not worthless either.

Durkon's diamonds were stolen, and he has no reason to prepare Resurrection every day, but that's been addressed already.


Belkar has constantly proven his loyality, and he's useful as an Order member. If he were to randomly die, but his body was saved, I see little reason not to reraise him. Like I said- my theory doesn't contained hardcore evidence- but in any DND campaign, would you let a player's character stay dead, even if he were Evil? Of course not! So why is this different?

If you were roleplaying a good story, you might well leave him dead. The other points have been addressed: Belkar's loyalty is always suspect at best, and this isn't a game, despite the rules of the universe. It really is the fate of the world they're fighting over. Belkar is too much of a liability to justify the cost of raising him and the risk of returning him to the world.


And don't bother mentioning the Astral Deva's warning to Roy. He batted her off easily as it was, and his logic was sound. He needs people, no matter what their alignment is, to defeat the Snarl and Xykon. Sure, he wants him to do as little evil as possible, and Death is a very good prison, but I think he needs to care MORE about saving the universe from destruction than letting fallen members rot in the ground because you're maximizing the chance that the party member won't run off and kill an innocent (which, to be fair, was rather long ago.) Belkar had MAJOR character development. He's no longer the crazy guy (or at least as much) that's in this quest to kill anymore.

Roy's logic is sound as long as Belkar is still alive. He's not going to just execute Belkar, that wouldn't be LG. Returning a Chaotic Evil psychopath to life after he's dead, though, is also not LG and may well be considered Evil. Because Belkar certainly is still the crazy murderer, he's just pretending not to be. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0687.html)


So because of that, I don't agree. You may be right, but your conclusion comes to me as anticlimatical and too simple. There must be more to it that Belkar would not ever live again. And, assuming Roy was right about them saving the world before the end of year, and assuming Belkar is alive before the final battles, then I stick to my theory. It has to be the Snarl.

Well, you may turn out to be right, but I don't see any reason why it can't be that simple. Belkar merely dying and not being Soul Bound or soul-destroyed or anything can still be quite a climactic ending for him, depending on the manner of the death.

[Adeptus]

The Giant is more clever than people give him credit for. I have a suspicion about Belkar "not being long for this world", but I think it's best I don't spoil it any further.

[Felecies]

That's Slaves. :smallwink:

Bountys tend to only care about "dead or Alive". Or possibly "Well enough to answer questions". :smalltongue:

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions? Besides my bet is that the Empress has a personal grudge against Nale, and wants him conscious and somewhat unharmed for the full bounty. Think about when Red Cloak kept healing O-Chul for the daily torture segment.

[Felecies]

Heck WE know (although I don't think they did) that Sabine had Level drain on touch. The mere fact that he COULD grapple her without having his levels eaten down to nothing would clue any someone who knew Sabine.

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355? for that matter how did he fight her at all?:smallconfused:

[SensFan]

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355? for that matter how did he fight her at all?:smallconfused:
She has used level drain on someone before, Haley I think.
The whole point of the joke in 355 was that the 'anything' Roy wanted to do was throw her out a window, nothing else.
Level draining wouldn't happen just by fighting her.

[The MunchKING]

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions?

An hour of napping, he'll be FINE.

While he's no Final Fantasy charecter, RPG heros still get a lot back just by rest. :smalltongue:

[DSCrankshaw]

An hour of napping, he'll be FINE.

While he's no Final Fantasy charecter, RPG heros still get a lot back just by rest. :smalltongue:

Not in 3.5. Assuming he went below 0, but is stable, then without any help (which V can't provide), he won't recover HP until he becomes conscious (which he has a 10% chance of doing each hour), and instead, loses 1 hp (which can kill him if he goes to -10). Even once conscious, he only has a 10% chance of starting to regain hp each day, otherwise he loses 1 hp. An untreated character has a pretty high chance of dying, even if he manages to stabilize.

Assuming he does receive some non-magical treatment (from his captors, if no one else), he'll only recover his level in hp per day, or three times that with complete bed rest. So that's about 15 hp. Once he's conscious, he can cast his healing spells, but that doesn't heal a whole lot.

[RMcMurtry]

Doubt it.

The Oracle said it'd be before the end of the year. The Giant is probably not going to off Belkar that easily. Especially if it's his "last breath ever".

I mean, face it. If it's his last breath- ever-, Belkar's at a young age. Were he ever killed before the end of the story, Roy's likely to just have him raised.

So something must be stopping him from being raised.

My money is that he gets eaten by the Snarl at the end of the story.:smallamused:



Have to disagree. All that's needed to stop him from being raised is Durkon refusing to do it, or being talked out of it. He's not required to cast the spell. Roy and Haley are both convinced Belkar's running a scam on them with his "changed behavior". I can easily see them refusing to have Belkar raised.

[slayerx]

Does Elan look well enough to answer questions? Besides my bet is that the Empress has a personal grudge against Nale, and wants him conscious and somewhat unharmed for the full bounty. Think about when Red Cloak kept healing O-Chul for the daily torture segment.

you really think the empress of blood is gonna care about having her local cleric burn a cure light wounds spell on a prisoner and/or possibly waiting a day (after already waiting X number of months) or to execute his punishment? cause really that's all it takes

Really the ONLY way she MIGHT refuse to pay them the bounty when "nale" is still alive is if he was in an outright coma that he was impossible to wake him up for years. I mean sure she's probably planning on killing him, but being unconscious takes all the fun out of it

[Kish]

Wait she has a level drain? then how did Roy have sex with her in strip 355?

...he didn't. Ew.


for that matter how did he fight her at all?:smallconfused:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm Scroll down to "Energy drain and negative levels."

[Cealocanth]

I wonder if they're lackeys of the boss blue dragon eating spaghetti on that one strip. They are both dragonflok, and they seem like they know what they're doing.

[Shale]

They'd know who Bozzok is if they were from Greysky.

[lothos]

Well, Iothos, for that to occur, Girard would have to know about the Order from way earlier back when they were dungeon crawling and fighting at Azure City. Hard to get that kind of info off a single scry. Girard could cast other spells to research information but it seems a little elaborate to set something like this up. This is likely something to do with Nale's activities and the bounty hunters think that Elan is Nale.

I still think the other members of the Order will enter the area rapidly and soon due to hearing the power word. They can locate V, Elan and Haley through magical means. Getting there is going to be a trick depending on how far away it is.

Is it not possible that Girad first found out about them while in the desert, then using some magic like legend lore or some epic spell he created, researched their history working back from that point ?

Note that I'm not asking if this is likely in real life, just if it's possible in this story :-) Even if it is possible in this story, doesn't make it likely in this story either. It's just an idea that occurred to me and I wanted to share.


The Giant is more clever than people give him credit for. I have a suspicion about Belkar "not being long for this world", but I think it's best I don't spoil it any further.

I think quite a lot of people in this forum give Rich quite a lot of credit for this sort of thing.

[factotum]

I think quite a lot of people in this forum give Rich quite a lot of credit for this sort of thing.

And there's quite a few who believe that he's not into yanking the chains of his readership and that Belkar is going to die, permanently, within the next few weeks. :smallbiggrin:

[pjackson]

It was assumed a long time ago that Rich is not going with the official limits of the spell. Otherwise the wizard NPC who had nothing better to do with his life than get drunk in Cliffport (see strip #340) would have had to be 18th level,

Or have something that boost Teleport - there being at least one prestige class that does.

[pjackson]

4th edition has Dragon Born,

3.5 has Dragon Born too - though not quite the same - in Races of the Dragon.

[factotum]

Or have something that boost Teleport - there being at least one prestige class that does.

A prestige class that Tsukiko also apparently possesses AS WELL AS arcane caster, divine caster, and Mystic Theurge, given that she teleported herself and six Wights when Haley's gang attacked the granary in Azure City? I think it's easier to assume Teleport has higher limits in OotS-verse!