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druid91
2010-04-18, 09:04 PM
So I have heard it referenced, but what is it? I only vaguely know that it is supposed to know everything or something like that.

Boci
2010-04-18, 09:08 PM
9th level arcane, devine and psionic spells/powers IIRC.

Terazul
2010-04-18, 09:14 PM
9th level arcane, devine and psionic spells/powers IIRC.
What? No.

It was back when people were trying to figure out how to defeat Pun-Pun before he realized his power (back when it still took multiple levels to do). Basically you had an artificer who made a bunch of items. Hire some mooks, pass out some rings of Share Pain (or something). Get a Delay Death effect on yourself. Then jump off a cliff. The damage would get shared, which in turn would then get shared, which in turn would then get shared, forming a loop such that you take infinite damage in an instant. The kicker? You have a Masochist spell active on you, so you get a +bonus to attack rolls/skill checks/etc for every point of damage you made in the last round. Make a Knowledge Local Check. For every 5 you beat a DC more knowledge is received about the people in an area. Since you have a +Infinity modifier, it is extrapolated that you know everything about every person everywhere, and how they would react to every given situation in every way*. From this, you are able to determine which kobold would be the most likely candidate to start a quest for Pun-Pun power. Now, ditch your ring, and while your delay death effect was still up, dunk your head in the water somewhere. Drowning rules put you at either -1 or 0 HP, and then you just had another item that healed you. Knowing everything, you wander off to go kill that kobold.

That was pretty much the gist.
EDIT*: This was more discussed later on in the thread as part of the thought exercise, but the actual build just took a bunch of non-actions to make Knowledge checks about everything using the +infinity bonus.

Boci
2010-04-18, 09:19 PM
What? No.

Oh, must have copnfused it with something else.


It was back when people were trying to figure out how to defeat Pun-Pun before he realized his power (back when it still took multiple levels to do). Basically you had an artificer who made a bunch of items. Hire some mooks, pass out some rings of Share Pain (or something). Get a Delay Death effect on yourself. Then jump off a cliff. The damage would get shared, which in turn would then get shared, which in turn would then get shared, forming a loop such that you take infinite damage in an instant. The kicker? You have a Masochist spell active on you, so you get a +bonus to attack rolls/skill checks/etc for every point of damage you made in the last round. Make a Knowledge Local Check. For every 5 you beat a DC more knowledge is received about the people in an area. Since you have a +Infinity modifier, it is extrapolated that you know everything about every person everywhere, and how they would react to every given situation in every way. From this, you are able to determine which kobold would be the most likely candidate to start a quest for Pun-Pun power. Now, ditch your ring, and while your delay death effect was still up, dunk your head in the water somewhere. Drowning rules put you at either -1 or 0 HP, and then you just had another item that healed you. Knowing everything, you wander off to go kill that kobold.

That was pretty much the gist.

Doesn't "I am Pun-Pun (Ex)" subject anyone trying this to a famlicide spell, no save, SR or other defenses? I don!t see why the fact that he isn!t Pun-Pun yet should matter.

Terazul
2010-04-18, 09:22 PM
The whole point was to do it before he ascends to power. Again, this was back when Pun-Pun took 5+ levels to complete. And the Omniscificer got all this done by level 4. That was the entire point of the exercise, when the "design a build that beats Pun-Pun" contest, that assumed they leveled at the same rate, was going on.

Aside from, y'know, being awesome.

Siosilvar
2010-04-18, 09:23 PM
Oh, must have copnfused it with something else.

Probably the omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177), a completely illegal gestalt build, not just for taking dual-progression PrC's, but for taking two of them per level.

Boci
2010-04-18, 09:24 PM
The whole point was to do it before he ascends to power. Again, this was back when Pun-Pun took 5+ levels to complete. And the Omniscificer got all this done by level 4. That was the entire point of the exercise.

Aside from, y'know, being awesome.

As I edited in latter, I fail to see how the fact that Pun-Pun does not exist yet is a problem. Are you actually telling me he is constrained by time?

Yukitsu
2010-04-18, 09:26 PM
Temporally he is if you kill him before he becomes himself.

IIRC, the omnificier is still a bit faster, he just doesn't have the means to kill Pun-Pun while he's chatting up pazuzu.

Terazul
2010-04-18, 09:29 PM
As I edited in latter, I fail to see how the fact that Pun-Pun does not exist yet is a problem. Are you actually telling me he is constrained by time?

:smallannoyed: Within the context of the contest from which the omniscificer was spawned, yes.

EDIT:Let's also get a link to the relevant build in here, shall we? (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868070/LoPs_Omniscificer)

Fostire
2010-04-18, 09:30 PM
IIRC, the omnificier is still a bit faster, he just doesn't have the means to kill Pun-Pun while he's chatting up pazuzu.

How so? the omniscifier takes 4 levels to do, pun-pun can do all his stuff on level 1. Assuming they both start at level 1 then the omniscifier would take a lot longer to do than pun-pun.

Yukitsu
2010-04-18, 09:32 PM
Can't recall, but I believe if you start with a sold spellbook, you can afford the spell service for the whole thing at 1. May be wrong though, I don't remember all the shenanigans for gaining wealth at level 1.

Xallace
2010-04-18, 09:35 PM
How so? the omniscifier takes 4 levels to do, pun-pun can do all his stuff on level 1. Assuming they both start at level 1 then the omniscifier would take a lot longer to do than pun-pun.

Omniscifier was dreamt up while Pun-Pun was still taking until level 4 or 5.

FlamingKobold
2010-04-18, 10:02 PM
Not going to say anything new, but here is a general informative post for those confused (of which there seems to be a number of people).

When Pun-Pun was originally created, he took many more levels to achieve his powers than he does now. Over time, it gradually went down as more people found more tricks. Ultimately, it stayed at level 5 for quite a bit of time, a point at which many thought was the earliest it could be done.

At this point a Pun-pun killing contest was constructed. Obviously, nothing can kill pun-pun in a straight up fight, so there was really only one way to beat him: kill him before he reached full power. The way of measuring this was by level. Assuming everyone levels up relatively equally, the goal was to find and kill pun-pun before level five.

This is when the omniscifer was made. It knew everything at level four, including where to find and how to kill the kobold that would eventually turn into a sarrukh and achieve infinite power.

That is the point and origin of the build. Please read this and don't continue asking questions previously answered.

Private-Prinny
2010-04-18, 10:17 PM
Wasn't another use for the +infinity to skill checks to know how to contact the gods and convince them to make you ascend to divinity?

Boci
2010-04-18, 10:18 PM
Wasn't another use for the +infinity to skill checks to know how to contact the gods and convince them to make you ascend to divinity?

Exemplar can substitute any skill for diplomacy, commonly used with jump since you just incease your speed by wildshaping into a cheatah.

arguskos
2010-04-18, 10:23 PM
Exemplar can substitute any skill for diplomacy, commonly used with jump since you just incease your speed by wildshaping into a cheatah.
Irrelevant, since Exemplar can't be entered until level 11, and the Omnifiscer happens at level 4.

Besides, using some reaaaaaally bad logic, the argument could be made that the Omnifiscer can just will himself to godhood. See, he knows everything, including any and all ways to ascend to godhood. If someone, anyone, anywhere, has ever just randomly ascended, then he knows it, and can duplicate it. Given that the Material Plane is infinite, it's highly likely this has occurred at some point, meaning he can do it too.

NOTE: I've seen the above postulated, but don't buy it personally.

Moff Chumley
2010-04-18, 10:28 PM
I love all these builds... this is one of the main reasons I regret switching to 4e. You don't have the insane, hilarious cheese.

On a related note, does anyone remember the Terminator build?

FlamingKobold
2010-04-18, 10:29 PM
Irrelevant, since Exemplar can't be entered until level 11, and the Omnifiscer happens at level 4.

Besides, using some reaaaaaally bad logic, the argument could be made that the Omnifiscer can just will himself to godhood. See, he knows everything, including any and all ways to ascend to godhood. If someone, anyone, anywhere, has ever just randomly ascended, then he knows it, and can duplicate it. Given that the Material Plane is infinite, it's highly likely this has occurred at some point, meaning he can do it too.

NOTE: I've seen the above postulated, but don't buy it personally.

It's more along the lines of "I know where to find the god that would be most willing to make me a god/demigod/whatever and exactly how what to do for them to make them willing," or "I found this god while i had +infinity to diplomacy. Win."

arguskos
2010-04-18, 10:29 PM
I love all these builds... this is one of the main reasons I regret switching to 4e. You don't have the insane, hilarious cheese.

On a related note, does anyone remember the Terminator build?
No, never saw that one I think. I do remember the Hive, the Psion that combined with two other people, and Gabriel the Undeadanator though. They made me giggle, though I no longer recall the precise builds on any of the above.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-18, 10:36 PM
How about the Temporal Wire Coat-Hanger?

That one was just wrong.

As was the Assplomancer.

[edit] Also? The psionic sandwich.

McPhrenic With Cheese?

Flickerdart
2010-04-18, 10:47 PM
The Omniscificer could use some sort of Dilletante something or other to get +Infinity on all checks, not just Knowledge, and then Diplomanced gods to do his bidding. He could also just use his omniscience to set in motion a chain of events that would eradicate the Kobold race.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 12:32 AM
How about the Temporal Wire Coat-Hanger?

That one was just wrong.

I spent a significant amount of time at CharOp and remember all of the other builds, but I don't recognize this one. Details please? (I'm pretty sure I can figure out what it's meant to do, but not the method by which it does.)

arguskos
2010-04-19, 12:37 AM
I spent a significant amount of time at CharOp and remember all of the other builds, but I don't recognize this one. Details please? (I'm pretty sure I can figure out what it's meant to do, but not the method by which it does.)
I think it did some time travel trick to kill off people before they lived. Or some such. I have a reaaaaaally vague recall of it, but yeah, no details.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 12:40 AM
I think it did some time travel trick to kill off people before they lived. Or some such. I have a reaaaaaally vague recall of it, but yeah, no details.

Yeah, I got that impression from the coat-hanger part, but I don't recall any reliable methods for time travel to the past other than teleport through time and something Tleilaxu_Ghola did for his No-Ship project.

Boci
2010-04-19, 12:41 AM
Irrelevant, since Exemplar can't be entered until level 11, and the Omnifiscer happens at level 4.

Someone asked how a +infinity skill modifier can be used to persuade the gods to make you one of them and I answered.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 12:43 AM
Someone asked how a +infinity skill modifier can be used to persuade the gods to make you one of them and I answered.
Ah, well, my point stands anyways. You don't keep the stat bonuses, IIRC, since the effect that generates them wears off.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-19, 12:53 AM
Exemplar is irrelevant, since Masochism gives a bonus to all skills, including Diplomacy.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-19, 03:44 AM
Probably the omnicaster (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3945177), a completely illegal gestalt build, not just for taking dual-progression PrC's, but for taking two of them per level.

Technically that's not actually forbidden, only strongly recommended against :smalltongue:


The Omniscificer is the original answer to the question of "what can beat Pun-Pun". At the time, Pun-Pun could be created by level five at the earliest (of course, since then, people have found a way of doing it at level one, rendering the point moot). The Omniscificer can be done by level four, thus it beats Pun-Pun by virtue of getting there first.

It exploits an infinite damage loop: through a shared item, damage done by you is also done to your henchmen, and vice versa, and the two trigger off each other. This is combined by an effect to not die from negative hit points, and an effect called "masochism" which gives you a bonus to skill checks equal to the damage taken. Since knowledge checks are a free action, you can then make as many knowledge checks as you please within a single round, each getting an infinite bonus. In other words, omniscience.

pingcode20
2010-04-19, 03:52 AM
Technically that's not actually forbidden, only strongly recommended against :smalltongue:


The Omniscificer is the original answer to the question of "what can beat Pun-Pun". At the time, Pun-Pun could be created by level five at the earliest (of course, since then, people have found a way of doing it at level one, rendering the point moot). The Omniscificer can be done by level four, thus it beats Pun-Pun by virtue of getting there first.

It exploits an infinite damage loop: through a shared item, damage done by you is also done to your henchmen, and vice versa, and the two trigger off each other. This is combined by an effect to not die from negative hit points, and an effect called "masochism" which gives you a bonus to skill checks equal to the damage taken. Since knowledge checks are a free action, you can then make as many knowledge checks as you please within a single round, each getting an infinite bonus. In other words, omniscience.

In short, the Omniscifier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TytGOeiW0aE).

Myou
2010-04-19, 06:16 AM
Technically that's not actually forbidden, only strongly recommended against :smalltongue:


I am so sick of that lie, whoever started it should read the book. The omnicaster is garbage that totally ignores the rules. :smallsigh:

Unearthed Arcana, page 73. Caveats for character classes;
"A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

Amphetryon
2010-04-19, 06:23 AM
For "Dice" (http://69.8.198.229/showthread.php?t=546499)

Dogmantra
2010-04-19, 07:30 AM
In short, the Omniscifier (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TytGOeiW0aE).

I was just listening to that song. What a coincidence.

Anyway, I have spotted a fatal flaw!
You need to roll for damage.
:smalltongue:

Knaight
2010-04-19, 07:46 AM
I am so sick of that lie, whoever started it should read the book. The omnicaster is garbage that totally ignores the rules. :smallsigh:

Unearthed Arcana, page 73. Caveats for character classes;
"A gestalt character canít combine two prestige classes at any level, although itís okay to combine a prestige class and a regular class."

The question was originally about dual progression PRCs, which are only strongly recommended against. Having two prestige classes on the other hand is completely illegal, although I'm fairly sure you can still pull of 8th level divine, arcane, and psionic fairly easily within that.

Fostire
2010-04-19, 07:49 AM
Exemplar is irrelevant, since Masochism gives a bonus to all skills, including Diplomacy.

Exactly. The omniscifier could just use his +infinity modifier with perform: breakdancing and do a dance that attracts the gods themselves. Once all the gods of the multiverse are gathered around him, he can use his +infinity diplomacy to convince them to give him all of their divine power.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-19, 09:39 AM
I spent a significant amount of time at CharOp and remember all of the other builds, but I don't recognize this one. Details please? (I'm pretty sure I can figure out what it's meant to do, but not the method by which it does.)There's a scrying spell that allows you to view a target in the (relatively) distant past as if you were actually there, and it does have a target line. There's the Fell Drain metamagic feat, which grants a negative level to the target of the affected spell.

You scry on the guy you want to kill back when he was an unborn baby in his mother's womb, dealing a negative level to him and turning him into a wight, which then eats its way out, killing both him and his mother retroactively.

Or that's the idea, anyway. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work, but it's the idea behind it is what makes it so horrific.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-19, 11:46 AM
There's a scrying spell that allows you to view a target in the (relatively) distant past as if you were actually there, and it does have a target line. There's the Fell Drain metamagic feat, which grants a negative level to the target of the affected spell.

You scry on the guy you want to kill back when he was an unborn baby in his mother's womb, dealing a negative level to him and turning him into a wight, which then eats its way out, killing both him and his mother retroactively.

Or that's the idea, anyway. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work, but it's the idea behind it is what makes it so horrific.

Ohhh, that one. I remember that one, just didn't recognize the name. Thanks.

Myou
2010-04-19, 02:07 PM
The question was originally about dual progression PRCs, which are only strongly recommended against. Having two prestige classes on the other hand is completely illegal, although I'm fairly sure you can still pull of 8th level divine, arcane, and psionic fairly easily within that.

No, I was responding to Kurald who was replying to "Probably the omnicaster, a completely illegal gestalt build, not just for taking dual-progression PrC's, but for taking two of them per level.", and he said it was legal.

So the question was about multiple PrCs, not dual-progression.

druid91
2010-04-19, 03:48 PM
Now I want to join an epic campaign at level 4 just to do this.

Heliomance
2010-04-19, 03:55 PM
There's a scrying spell that allows you to view a target in the (relatively) distant past as if you were actually there, and it does have a target line. There's the Fell Drain metamagic feat, which grants a negative level to the target of the affected spell.

You scry on the guy you want to kill back when he was an unborn baby in his mother's womb, dealing a negative level to him and turning him into a wight, which then eats its way out, killing both him and his mother retroactively.

Or that's the idea, anyway. I'm pretty sure it doesn't work, but it's the idea behind it is what makes it so horrific.

No, it does work. You don't metamagic the Hindsight spell, though, it explicitly allows you to cast a small number of other divination spells through it. From memory, you cast Hindsight to look back in time, then cast a Snowcasting Flash Frost Fell Drain Detect Magic through it.

taltamir
2010-04-19, 05:17 PM
i understand the omnifiscier uses a trick that prevents dying due to damage (I recall a spell that does as much, can't recall its name right now)...

But what about the rule that if you take 5x the total HP you have in damage your body is destroyed completely?
Even if he is still alive, he is a living fine mist of gore.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 05:19 PM
No, I was responding to Kurald who was replying to "Probably the omnicaster, a completely illegal gestalt build, not just for taking dual-progression PrC's, but for taking two of them per level.", and he said it was legal.

So the question was about multiple PrCs, not dual-progression.
You ARE aware that gestalt is, at best, a pile of suggestions, printed in a book that is nothing but variants, right? Just sayin', there are worse offenses to get highly up in arms about than someone breaking the gestalt rules for lulz and profit. :smallwink:

For example, you could bitch about the drowning rules, something TRULY stupid that no one ever will defend. /cuesomeonedefendingthem :smallbiggrin:

Divide by Zero
2010-04-19, 05:23 PM
But what about the rule that if you take 5x the total HP you have in damage your body is destroyed completely?
Even if he is still alive, he is a living fine mist of gore.

Sounds like a house rule. This is the first I've heard of it.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 05:23 PM
But what about the rule that if you take 5x the total HP you have in damage your body is destroyed completely?
Even if he is still alive, he is a living fine mist of gore.
Um... what? Dude, where'd you hear that one? :smallconfused: