[3.5] Progression/PrC for Spirit Shaman

[ghost_warlock]

My gaming group has been playing through the World's Largest Dungeon module and, apparently, my current character is overpowered. :smallfrown: As such, I've been playing around with some ideas for a replacement, thinking along the lines of playing more of a support character.

I'm leaning towards the spirit shaman because it has a solid spell list and the various restrictions on the class should help reign-in my tendency towards power gaming. The group I'm playing with apparently thinks that a cleric who spams burning hands and produce flame is the height of optimization. The DM thinks the Tome of Battle is overpowered, psionics are completely broken, and was completely flabbergasted to the point of accusing me of being a munchkin when he realized my current character (a 2nd-level swordsage/swashbuckler) has a +4 attack bonus while dual-wielding shortswords (18 Dex).

I'm intending to RP the character as being a bit out of his mind, playing up the Spirit Guide talking-to-yourself class feature. I'm also thinking of taking a 1-2-level dip into sorcerer for a raven familiar, who'll provide something of a overburdened voice of sanity for the character. :smalltongue:

So, does anyone know of any flavorful PrCs/feats that would be a good fit for a spirit shaman? It seems most of the divine PrCs I'm familiar with either require turn/rebuke or wild shape. Anything that plays off insanity or is just plain weird would be interesting. I'm not too concerned with optimization, as taking Weapon Finesse is apparently power gaming in this group, but I'd still like to avoid the character being overly gimped.

Also, are there any feats that increase a character's effective sorcerer level for determining familiar benefits, particularly the familiar's intelligence - something like the Natural Bond feat but for familiars?

[ghost_warlock]

I'm guessing the lack of response is at least partially due to the utter lack of prestige classes geared towards the spirit shaman. Or, the utter lack of any WotC support for the class at all outside moar drood spellz.

Here's what I came up with:

NG Human
Str 10 Dex 10 Con 10 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 17
(75 points distributed on 1:1 basis is how we're doing attributes)

Level progression:
1. Ranger
2-8. Spirit Shaman
9-12. Abolisher (Lords of Madness)
13-20. Spirit Shaman

Attribute bonus progression:
Cha, Wis, Wis, Wis, Cha

Feat progression:
1. Improved Toughness, Track(B), Zen Archery(B)
2. Alertness(B)
3. Skill Focus (Concentration)
6. Spontaneous Summoner
9. Natural Spell
12. Extend Spell
15. Reach Spell
18. Chain Spell

Skill progression:
4 ranks in Know (dungeon) and Search at 1st level. Max ranks in Concentration, Heal, Know (nature), Listen, Spot, and Survival thereafter.

Comments? Suggestions?

[RagnaroksChosen]

have you read the spirit shaman handbook?


Stormlord out of Cdivine is nice.

Your gm is a little crazy though.

[Godskook]

Wait, you're ECL 3, and your character is 'overpowered'? What the hell are you playing!

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

[Pyron]

There are two prestige classes that might want to look at.

The Holt Warden from from Complete Champion is a nice fit for the Spirit Shaman. You can now talk to trees, and the requirements are easy enough for a spirit shaman. The benefit: You get domain spells, can talk to trees for healing, and a few nice druid perks.

Since you mentioned that this character wanted to a raven familiar. I might suggest the Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Again, it's an easy to qualify for with some nice abilities. Turn Undead, Remove Negative levels, Full BAB, and access to the Sun Domain.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Wait, you're ECL 3, and your character is 'overpowered'? What the hell are you playing!

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:

Alot of people not on the boards think TOB is overpowered. ITs not that surprising.

[ghost_warlock]

have you read the spirit shaman handbook?
Looking through it now. :smallsmile: Thanks for pointing me towards it; completely spaced on it even existing.


Stormlord out of Cdivine is nice.

Your gm is a little crazy though.
The problem with Stormlord is it requires the character to worship Talos and we're using some homebrew deity list, I think.


Wait, you're ECL 3, and your character is 'overpowered'? What the hell are you playing!

:smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused: :smallconfused:
My current character is an ECL 2 Human Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 1.
Str 10, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 8.
I took Two-Weapon Fighting and Shadowblade for my feats; Swordsage and Swashbuckler gave me Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus as bonus feats.

Besides the few Swordsage maneuvers, of which I've used 3 in 2 sessions, the character can't do anything a 1st-level fighter couldn't. Apparently that's enough to make him outshine the other characters in the party. :smallsigh:

I do run with my stance, Island of Blades, up constantly (as the designers intended). There's two rogues in the party and it really helps them more than me...they really need the extra +2 to attack rolls.


There are two prestige classes that might want to look at.

The Holt Warden from from Complete Champion is a nice fit for the Spirit Shaman. You can now talk to trees, and the requirements are easy enough for a spirit shaman. The benefit: You get domain spells, can talk to trees for healing, and a few nice druid perks.

Since you mentioned that this character wanted to a raven familiar. I might suggest the Knight of the Raven from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. Again, it's an easy to qualify for with some nice abilities. Turn Undead, Remove Negative levels, Full BAB, and access to the Sun Domain.

The issue with Holt Warden is that we're running in the World's Largest Dungeon and I'm unlikely to ever even see a tree for the duration of the campaign, let alone meet the special requirement for entry.

I'll take a look at Knight of the Raven. So far I've been avoiding setting-specific books. Edit: Never going to meet the special requirement, as we're never going to get out of the dungeon during the campaign. :smallfrown:

[RagnaroksChosen]

The problem with Stormlord is it requires the character to worship Talos and we're using some homebrew deity list, I think.


My current character is an ECL 2 Human Swordsage 1/Swashbuckler 1.
Str 10, Dex 18, Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 8.
I took Two-Weapon Fighting and Shadowblade for my feats; Swordsage and Swashbuckler gave me Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus as bonus feats.

Besides the few Swordsage maneuvers, of which I've used 3 in 2 sessions, the character can't do anything a 1st-level fighter couldn't. Apparently that's enough to make him outshine the other characters in the party. :smallsigh:

I do run with my stance, Island of Blades, up constantly (as the designers intended). There's two rogues in the party and it really helps them more than me...they really need the extra +2 to attack rolls.

I'll take a look at Knight of the Raven. So far I've been avoiding setting-specific books.


First switch talos to what ever storm god is in the game.

2nd actualy your stricktly better then a fighter 2. most fighters with an 18 dex do not get to add there dmg to two weapons.
your character is strickly better.

[Amphetryon]

Obligatory Sacred Exorcist/Contemplative DMM-cheese plug.

[ghost_warlock]

2nd actualy your stricktly better then a fighter 2. most fighters with an 18 dex do not get to add there dmg to two weapons.
your character is strickly better.

The DM was freaking about my attack bonus. Dex to damage was never an issue.

As for being "better," the character is better than a fighter by the simple virtue of being a swordsage instead of a fighter. :smallwink:

[Pyron]

The issue with Holt Warden is that we're running in the World's Largest Dungeon and I'm unlikely to ever even see a tree for the duration of the campaign, let alone meet the special requirement for entry.

Sure you can... simply write the special requirements into your back story. The point that the Holt Warden's Whisper of the Forest is practically useless in the WLD. However, I would still consider the PrC for the other benefits.


I'll take a look at Knight of the Raven. So far I've been avoiding setting-specific books. Edit: Never going to meet the special requirement, as we're never going to get out of the dungeon during the campaign. :smallfrown:

I take it your DM is that strict on the special requirements then.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The DM was freaking about my attack bonus. Dex to damage was never an issue.

As for being "better," the character is better than a fighter by the simple virtue of being a swordsage instead of a fighter. :smallwink:

fair enough. I just know how some GM's take TOB.

[Godskook]

The DM was freaking about my attack bonus. Dex to damage was never an issue.

As for being "better," the character is better than a fighter by the simple virtue of being a swordsage instead of a fighter. :smallwink:

I suggest you roll up a good four to ten characters. Each with a higher attack bonus and # of attacks than your character, with none of them using anything in your current build. All ECL 2, or for lulz, ECL 1.

A Dragonborn Human Totemist is a good start, having 5 attacks at ECL 2, and with a good strength, you'll be running +7/+2/+2/+2/+1(Counting essntia). At ECL 3, snag Multiattack, for +8/+6/+6/+6/+5.(Assuming 18 Str)

Or a Human Fighter with Rapid Shot(and point blank shot) using a bow adjusted for his strength. Get's two shots per round, at anything within 30' feet, every round if he wants(Precise Shot as his human bonus feat). Assuming 18 dex, you've got +5/+5, at range.

Or a Half-Orc Babarian with 16 str, 16 dex, pre-racial using TWF. He's walking around with +4/+4(+6/+6 while raging), and if you splat-book him, he can use both attacks on a charge with a very popular ACF.

Really, the build you posted is not only non-broken, it doesn't even take effort to find examples of things that can do better what your DM thinks you've munchkined(Attack bonus)

Or you know you could *really* throw him for a loop by building a core human monk, with TWF and Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) and again, 18 Str. Has a +6, +4/+4 or +2/+2/+2 attack routine.

Of the four builds I've mentioned, they've each got something 'more' than what your swordsage does in the # of attacks dept, from the archer's range, the totemist's extra 3 attacks, the barbarian's pounce, to the monk's optional flurry, they can all escalate a little bit farther than a swordsage can in the to-hit department.

[Pluto]

I think Faiths and Pantheons is full of full-casting SS-friendly PrC's, but I can't access that book atm. They all have ridiculous feat requirements.

Alienist goes with the insane thing, but it's almost strictly worse than straight SS levels.

Lords of Madness has the Sanctified Mind class, which goes well with the "two minds" idea.

[ghost_warlock]

Sure you can... simply write the special requirements into your back story. The point that the Holt Warden's Whisper of the Forest is practically useless in the WLD. However, I would still consider the PrC for the other benefits.

I take it your DM is that strict on the special requirements then.

I'm not sure how strict he is with them. I only see him on the game day, for a total of two sessions so far. I'll talk to him about it this Wednesday but, considering the issues he has with my current character, I'm not sure how lenient he'll be with me.

As for the backstory, only one other player even has one - and was suitably mocked. Granted, he did write a 13-page backstory for a 2nd-level character! :smalleek:


I suggest you roll up a good four to ten characters. Each with a higher attack bonus and # of attacks than your character, with none of them using anything in your current build. All ECL 2, or for lulz, ECL 1.

A Dragonborn Human Totemist is a good start, having 5 attacks at ECL 2, and with a good strength, you'll be running +7/+2/+2/+2/+1(Counting essntia). At ECL 3, snag Multiattack, for +8/+6/+6/+6/+5.(Assuming 18 Str)

Or a Human Fighter with Rapid Shot(and point blank shot) using a bow adjusted for his strength. Get's two shots per round, at anything within 30' feet, every round if he wants(Precise Shot as his human bonus feat). Assuming 18 dex, you've got +5/+5, at range.

Or a Half-Orc Babarian with 16 str, 16 dex, pre-racial using TWF. He's walking around with +4/+4(+6/+6 while raging), and if you splat-book him, he can use both attacks on a charge with a very popular ACF.

Really, the build you posted is not only non-broken, it doesn't even take effort to find examples of things that can do better what your DM thinks you've munchkined(Attack bonus)

Or you know you could *really* throw him for a loop by building a core human monk, with TWF and Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike) and again, 18 Str. Has a +6, +4/+4 or +2/+2/+2 attack routine.

Of the four builds I've mentioned, they've each got something 'more' than what your swordsage does in the # of attacks dept, from the archer's range, the totemist's extra 3 attacks, the barbarian's pounce, to the monk's optional flurry, they can all escalate a little bit farther than a swordsage can in the to-hit department.

:biggrin:

I love these suggestions, even if I think all they'll do if I actually use them is further convince the DM that I'm a dirty, cheating munchkin. :smallfrown: As I wrote in the OP, a cleric who can spam burning hands is the most optimized character in the party.

Funny thing is, my original idea for a character was a Neanderthal lion-totem barbarian 1/totemist 1. :smallwink:


I think Faiths and Pantheons is full of full-casting SS-friendly PrC's, but I can't access that book atm. They all have ridiculous feat requirements.

Alienist goes with the insane thing, but it's almost strictly worse than straight SS levels.

Lords of Madness has the Sanctified Mind class, which goes well with the "two minds" idea.

I'll take a look through F&P, maybe I can find something without too ridiculous of requirements.

Actually, Alienist would be all-but useless as the signature ability of the class, summoning pseudonatural creatures, only works with the summon monster line of spells, not the summon nature's ally ones.

Although getting into Sanctified Mind would be ridiculously easy, I'm going to avoid it because the DM has stated that he hates psionics and thinks they're broken. :smallfrown: Bringing a psionic character to the table wouldn't help my case and most of the Sanctified Mind's class abilities would never be used as there'll be no psionic enemies to use them on.

[Teron]

I love these suggestions, even if I think all they'll do if I actually use them is further convince the DM that I'm a dirty, cheating munchkin. :smallfrown: As I wrote in the OP, a cleric who can spam burning hands is the most optimized character in the party.
Here's another idea: build a character as bad as everyone else's, watch the whole party get slaughtered within the next few encounters, and point out, as diplomatically (or not) as you like, that your character wasn't overpowered -- the others just suck.

[Escheton]

Here's another idea: build a character as bad as everyone else's, watch the whole party get slaughtered within the next few encounters, and point out, as diplomatically (or not) as you like, that your character wasn't overpowered -- the others just suck.

seconded...and some words to make 10 characters or more