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Mongoose87
2010-04-18, 10:46 PM
In the upcoming month of May, I have been enlisted to run what will at least be a one-shot, and might become a campaign for some people who are, but for one, new to DnD.

A couple I am friends with, a friend I have from university, my girlfriend and her friend from school are the players. My girlfriend is the only one to have played before, and she's only played in one a campaign and one one-shot.

Firstly, I seek general advice for DMing for a group so new. I don't have all that much DM experience, in general, so I want to be sure not to make this unpleasant or unduly difficult for them.

Secondly, can anyone think of any reasons not to use Pathfinder? No edition wars please, I merely mean reasons it might be harder to understand than regular 3.5e. I am of the impression that it makes some mechanics easier to use (Combat Maneuvers) and gives a few classes extra goodies to prevent boring dead levels. I love the new skill system, as it promotes a diversification of skills, and the new favored class system is by far better. Is there anything Pathfinder made more complicated?

I know a lot of people knock it for saying it's compatible with all 3.5e material, but for a group this new, they won't know any of the splat, so, if they tell me they want to try a particular concept, I can always adapt 3.5e splat for them.

Lastly, can anyone think of reasons not to use E6 for a group of n00bs? I've been itching to try it for some time, but my normal group loves their high-level, ridiculously powerful characters. I think E6 would help keep things simple, in addition to keeping the feel of the game around what I feel is the sweet spot, ECLs 4-8.

Swordgleam
2010-04-18, 11:04 PM
My main suggestion is to give them pregens. This has a couple benefits: eliminates an entire session spent building chars (it takes this long with newbies) and lets you pick simple powers/feats/whatever and balanced, competent builds. After a session or two, if they want, they can make their own.

Seffbasilisk
2010-04-18, 11:05 PM
I too, see the sweetest spot for starting as 6.

I'd actually avoid PF, and just go Core v3.5, keep'm to the PHB for races and things simple.

Have the more versed players translate character concepts into class/race/feat combinations.

Use an elite array, or have dice-rolling explained very simply.

Stress that the default die is a d20, and that the only notable exception, is damage.

Deny splatbooks until prestige-class level of familiarity is reached.

Mongoose87
2010-04-18, 11:33 PM
I'd actually avoid PF, and just go Core v3.5, keep'm to the PHB for races and things simple.


Do you have any reasons for not simply using Pathfinder core? I think it's probably more simple than 3.5e core, and, as I said, the skills are very shiny.

Savannah
2010-04-18, 11:38 PM
I've DMed for newbies a couple of times (including a pbp right now), but never quite as new as you have. (Don't know exactly how new you are to DMing, so a few points might not really apply.) What I would do is this:

Sit down with each one individually before the game and ask them what broad type of character they want to play (melee? ranged? magic user? cleric? thief?) and what race. Once you've got that, pick what you think is the appropriate class for their broad type. (I suggest using broad types because the D&D classes can be rather confusing. Races generally match up to what is common in fantasy, so it should be easy for them to decide which one they want.)

Help them build their character by explaining what each part is and giving them a few choices. ("To do something, you roll a skill check. The more ranks you have in a skill, the better you are. Based on what character you want to play, I think you should get skill x and y and either w or z. Which of those two sounds more interesting to you?")

Start them at level 1. This will give them some time to get used to the actual play mechanics before they have to remember a lot of options.

If they have never played before, show them the dice. Tell them that whenever they want to do something, they roll a d20 to see if they succeed. Only give them a d20 and whatever is needed for their weapons and/or spells.

In the game itself, let them tell you what they want to do and then help them do it. (Player: "I try to convince the guard to let us pass." You: "OK, that's a diplomacy check. Here *points* is your diplomacy bonus on your sheet. Roll a d20 and add that number to see if you succeed.")

Don't let them die unless they are extremely stupid, and then give them warnings that they are being stupid. You shouldn't tell them this and past a certain point you can stop cushioning them, but it can be highly off-putting to set up a character and then die.

Make sure you tell them that you are pretty new to DMing and might not know all the answers yet. Don't be afraid to call a quick break while you look something up, but also don't be afraid to go with whatever seems reasonable. (They'll never know if you were wrong!)

Especially because they are new players, expect them to do things you didn't expect.

Short play sessions are good at first. Learning something new is stressful and you want end it with them wanting more, not feeling burnt out. (DMing can be stressful too!)

I have never read pathfinder and don't know what E6 is, so I can't help you there.

Seffbasilisk
2010-04-18, 11:44 PM
Do you have any reasons for not simply using Pathfinder core? I think it's probably more simple than 3.5e core, and, as I said, the skills are very shiny.

Simple incompatability. If they learn PF, they'll have bad habits if they ever go back to real D&D. Also, there's a few glitches in the conversion, and unless you've extensive experiance with both, and can work it smoothly...

Ach, one of the groups I'm in has been playing exclusivly PF of late. Lack of skill synergy, inherant +3 trained bonus...

...and I loathe the feats. Really. Nerfing power attack, cleave, and many others really worked for class balance?

Mongoose87
2010-04-18, 11:46 PM
I have some experience, just not much. I once ran a very poor, very short campaign in high school for some friends. I ran a one-off for some other n00bs who were familiar with other tabletop games and a couple with 4e, which was much better, and very popular. I've also done a few other one-offs here and there with friends. This is my first time working with a group so green, though.

Katana_Geldar
2010-04-18, 11:53 PM
Remember the most important thing about new groups: the first encounter. Your players will make lots of mistakes, not work together and take a lot of time with dice rolls and adding up.

So make it very easy.

Ellisthion
2010-04-19, 12:08 AM
Start them at level 1. This will give them some time to get used to the actual play mechanics before they have to remember a lot of options.

I would definately agree with this. Starting at level 6 is a recipe for confusion, I think.

Savannah
2010-04-19, 12:08 AM
Katana Geldar makes a VERY important point. Also, give them a plot hook they can't refuse, or even start the game with them already wherever the adventure will take place (the classic "You are standing outside of [adventure site]. All you life you have heard rumors of [treasure and/or danger waiting inside]." works). I have had terrible luck with new players being overly cautious about starting out.

Mongoose87
2010-04-19, 12:11 AM
I would definately agree with this. Starting at level 6 is a recipe for confusion, I think.

I never actually said I was intending on starting them at level six. I said I was considering using E6.

Godskook
2010-04-19, 12:13 AM
Lastly, can anyone think of reasons not to use E6 for a group of n00bs? I've been itching to try it for some time, but my normal group loves their high-level, ridiculously powerful characters. I think E6 would help keep things simple, in addition to keeping the feel of the game around what I feel is the sweet spot, ECLs 4-8.

Here's one: There's almost no leveling during your desired sweet spot. I've always viewed E6 as a game for players who've already learned 3.5 and want to try a more gritty version.

-------------------------

Get your hands on some good houserules. Mine are here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=141594), but they only do a little for melee and are towards the higher end of the power spectrum(50 pointbuy and 10 bonus feats by L20, for instance).

Also, never, ever, have a first combat be against creatures that can 2-hit kill the team's frontliner's, even if its only on lucky rolls. Start them off against something with weak damage dice so that you can get a feel for how well they do and work together. Then, make sure they get an in-game day's rest before you throw anything serious at them(This is so the spellcasters can start preparing spells towards your DMing style).

Savannah
2010-04-19, 12:13 AM
What is E6?

Mongoose87
2010-04-19, 12:20 AM
Also, never, ever, have a first combat be against creatures that can 2-hit kill the team's frontliner's, even if its only on lucky rolls.

I've had a specific request for Kobolds, so, I think they should be able to make a relatively squishy and harmless foe, if not played in char-op fashion.

JGoldenberg
2010-04-19, 12:39 AM
I taught nearly my entire group how to play D20 games through Pathfinder, and find that those who learned playing Pathfinder had an easier time getting a hang of the rules than the couple regular that had played 3.5 for years, myself included.

One of my regular players, Sean, noted that Pathfinder seemed easier to remember things likes skills, and the obnoxious combat rules of Grapple and Maneuvers.

I don't see how Seffbasilisk construes that people who learn how to play Pathfinder will carry bad habits into D&D 3.5, in fact the bad habits I see are shared by both my regulars who grew up playing 3.5, and my newbies playing Pathfinder.
The only trouble I can see, is that someone playing Pathfinder may have troubles getting used to the feeling of lacking in playing Core 3.5.
I remember my friend Patrick and I joining a 3.5 group a couple months back and looking through our PHBs and just shaking our heads; neither of us remembered Fighters being so lacking or Sorcerers being so terrible.
That and the fact there is so many more skills in 3.5.

TL;DR

From my own experience, Pathfinder is better for teaching newbs thant 3.5, especially if they are kick in the door grapplers like my group.

I've seen nothing of Seffbasilisks claims that Pathfinder Players form bad habits that would cause them to have difficulty playing 3.5, other than the feeling of lacking.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 12:54 AM
What is E6?

E6 (http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=202109) or Epic 6 is a rules variant where characters stop level advancement on level 6, the "sweet point" balance- and power-wise and after that, only gain feats as opposed to advancing in elvels.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-19, 01:18 AM
Figure out what people want in the game. If it's hack'n'slash, a story based game will leave them bored, and potentially useless. Vice versa for wanting a story based game and getting a dungeon crawl.

Find out what characters they want to play, and make them for the players. Explain the characters to each person in advance, letting them make notes on the sheet itself. Important things like attack bonus, AC, etc, should be highlighted a color. A d20 + The Red number tells you how well you hit. The d12 + green number says how much damage you did.

Don't start too high a level, they'll get confused. Don't start too low a level, it'll suck if they get 1 shot by an orc with a critical in the first round of action. If you use a fumble/crit chart, make it easier, so someone doesn't get his arms chopped off by a fumble. "Monk fumbles attack, hits ally, crits ally, decapitates ally." Makes for a good story to experienced players, but sucks for newbies in their first fight.

Mongoose87
2010-04-19, 09:29 AM
Don't start too high a level, they'll get confused. Don't start too low a level, it'll suck if they get 1 shot by an orc with a critical in the first round of action. If you use a fumble/crit chart, make it easier, so someone doesn't get his arms chopped off by a fumble. "Monk fumbles attack, hits ally, crits ally, decapitates ally." Makes for a good story to experienced players, but sucks for newbies in their first fight.

I've been thinking I'd start them at second or third level, to prevent said one-shotting.

As for crit fumbles, I've never played with them.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-19, 10:11 AM
My sugestion is to go Core PHB 3.5 don't go pathfinder.
I would also start them in the vasinity of 2-3. Not high enough to have a rediculous amount of abilities, yet at the same time not mechanicaly super squishy..

Also for extreme noobs(aka first timers) if they want to play a caster sugest sorcerer or cleric. Both are super easy to play from the get go.



The reason I sugest core phb is mainly because there is less stuff to remember where as pathfinder classes tend to have a bunch of stuff in them. I find phb core only to be very simple. most characters may have a few class abilities but nothing major. It also depends on how kick in the door you want it.

Kol Korran
2010-04-19, 10:40 AM
i have never tried PF so i can't give you advice on that. but if you like the skill system, you could probably easily import it into PHB (if needed). my suggestions are as follows:
1- talk to the players before hand, (or send them an email) detailing the various options. then request them to explain to you what they'd like their characters to be able to do. then, build the characters for them, perhaps living 2 options for them to choose from (such as a feat between several feats, or such)
2- i'd suggest 3rd level- not too many options, not too much squishiness

3- E6 comes into real effect in the way the common world perceive the characters (which you can easily mimic) and the mechanics after 6th level. since you don't intend to start at that level, that is moot.

4- if you're planning for a one shot, i'd say plan for 3 set piece encounters, and have 2 other encounters that might be added if there is time. don't forget some skill oriented challenges.

5- descriptions, vivid descriptions, especially of monsters and magic items! forget the +1 items, give them things that can do stuff, like elixir of fire breath and the like.

i hope this helps,
Kol.

Swordgleam
2010-04-19, 11:03 AM
I've heard the module for PF are good, so it might be a good idea to run one of those. This is because running a (good) modules takes a lot of the work out of your hands, so you're more free to spend that time and effort on your players. You don't have those "oh ****" moments when the party takes an unexpected turn, because it's all mapped out, and can instead use that extra creativity to tailor the existing encounters to them. They also tend to be more straightforward than what most DMs come up with on their own (at least the ones I know).