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TheLogman
2010-04-19, 01:52 PM
I'm building a ranged rogue for an upcoming game. I'm thinking of using shortbow and maybe getting a few Ranged combat feats.

5th level, 32 point buy.

I was thinking Halfling and Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as my two feats.

How does flanking work with ranged weapons?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-19, 01:54 PM
I'm building a ranged rogue for an upcoming game. I'm thinking of using shortbow and maybe getting a few Ranged combat feats.

5th level, 32 point buy.

I was thinking Halfling and Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot as my two feats.

How does flanking work with ranged weapons?

At such a low level you may want to look into cheep throwing weapons like shurkiens.

You may want to go rogue 3/fighter2 and go for wisperknife out of Races of the wild... actualy for that matter what sources do you have avalable.

JasonP
2010-04-19, 01:56 PM
For the most part you can't flank from range. From what I can tell the best thing would be to find a constant source of concealment.

Amphetryon
2010-04-19, 02:06 PM
I'd advocate Rapid Shot over Precise Shot. Go early in the initiative thanks to your DEX and get more shots off for your SA damage to work with. Ranger 2 is a cheap way to get Rapid Shot as well as Precise Shot, I suppose, along with a few other little bonuses.

With a Halfling you'd be somewhat better off using Daggers/Darts/Javelins etc, since their bonus to thrown weapons couples with the bonus from your size to reduce Rapid Shot penalties. That said, you'll need Quick Draw for an effective Thrower. Daggers have the obvious benefit of being useful in melee if you get jumped.

As stated, you cannot flank from range. Go first, invest in UMD, and get a Wand of Grease. You'll have the enemy denied DEX with it, and make life generally easier on your party to boot.

EDIT: English Fail.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 02:07 PM
Outside one use of the feat "Clarion Commander" from Tome of Battle, it's pretty much impossible to flank at range. So yeah, Hide and attack (and try to Hide again), get a source of Blink (gives you concealment with regards to opponents; Ring of Blinking is a great longterm investment) or Greater Invisibility, have opponent on Grease-spell (or Balancing or Climbing or any such without the prerequisite 5 ranks to avoid being denied Dex-bonus to AC) or in general, in a position where he's denied Dex-bonus to AC or you have Total Concealment.

And make sure you can penetrate most Concealments since opponent having Concealment means you cannot SA them. And yeah, acting first is a fine way to get SA. Just remember, at range you can't do it beyond 30' without Sniper's Shot-spell [Spell Compendium], which you must get a Wand of and Use Magic Device on it. Crossbow Sniper [PHBII] is a good feat for Rogues extending the SA range to 60' for Crossbows so if that's at all an option, consider that. You'll need extra feat for Rapid Reload, but meh.

Zergrusheddie
2010-04-19, 02:08 PM
Going Ranger/Rogue might be something to look into. 4th level Ranger has a variant from PH2 that lets their attacks make the enemy become flanked by you. So you would shoot, the first hit would flank, and then you would SA. However, that does require 4 levels of Ranger which is kind of annoying. If nothing else, get the Wizard to drop Grease on the enemy.

Oh, and if being a Skill Monkey is not important then I would suggest the Sneak Attack variant Fighter. Better BAB and more Hitpoints.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-19, 02:09 PM
I say Ranger/Sneaky Thug Fighter, solely for BAB. You actually want to hit (even vs a lower AC), so this keeps a Full BAB running smooth

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-19, 02:17 PM
actualy that brings up a good point.

If you can use the source. C adventurer has the ninja class that at 2nd level allows you to turn invis for the round and has sudden strike which is like SA.

could go 3 ninja/2 fighter into wisper knife.
Taking zen archery. for wis to attack.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-19, 02:22 PM
My best recommendation is to go for a dip into Shadowdancer at level 8 to pick up Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight. You won't need to use the (very slow) Sniping option, because Hide in Plain Sight will let you stand out in the open and Hide while attacking. No wasteful move actions required.

If you need greater distance the only good option is Crossbow Sniper (Player's Handbook II) to boost your sneak attack range to 60'. This is expensive both in the feats required and the equipment. You'll want a crossbow with the quick loading enhancement (Magic Item Compendium), or alternatively a composite bow with the aptitude enhancement (Tome of Battle) to let you leverage those crossbow feats with a different type of weapon.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-19, 02:27 PM
Recently helped a player build a level 7 rogue5/ranger 2. They were human for extra feats, basically, and ranger gives you a few advantages. Free track (more skill monkey assistance), free rapid shot, a couple of larger HD and wild empathy. I'll explain why I like that in a moment.
Getting SA: I'd get the party caster to cast obscuring mist on the pair of you, or grease on enemies. Mist will help you use Hide and both you and the squishy wizard avoid enemy return fire. Grease'll do, but it'll annoy your melee fighters. Failing useful casters, wands and UMD (great skill for a rogue).
Wild empathy: via various means, from finding them in the wild, summons or a wizard's familiar, you can encounter various potentially ameniable poisonous creatures. WE won't help with all, but that, Handle Animal and Craft (poisons) makes quite a nice combination, especially for a shooty rogue. You can do all sorts with a good poison, and this way gets them for free.
These are useful feats for a rogue, Craven especially (it's like power attack but without reducing your to hit):
# Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity,
# Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save (DC = damage) or be staggered for 1 round when you Sneak Attack them with a melee attack.
# Craven: +1 damage per character level on every Sneak Attack.
Credit goes to the guy who made the rogue guide, name escapes me, for the feats.

TheLogman
2010-04-19, 02:33 PM
Since I'm DMing this game and willing to take a few liberties with the rules, would it be terribly unbalanced to allow for Ranged Flanking if the Ranged Rogue in question was within a certain distance, say 10 or 15 feet?

Amphetryon
2010-04-19, 02:39 PM
Since I'm DMing this game and willing to take a few liberties with the rules, would it be terribly unbalanced to allow for Ranged Flanking if the Ranged Rogue in question was within a certain distance, say 10 or 15 feet?

Depends in large part on the normal optimization level and party composition at your game. Generally speaking, no, but some folks will tell you that Paladin is overpowered for their game.

Nidogg
2010-04-19, 02:45 PM
look in Complete Scoundrel. there are a few feats in there that can turn sneak attack into other affects, and lets not forget the skill tricks, you have so many skill points, you dont need them all....

Cogidubnus
2010-04-19, 02:47 PM
Since I'm DMing this game and willing to take a few liberties with the rules, would it be terribly unbalanced to allow for Ranged Flanking if the Ranged Rogue in question was within a certain distance, say 10 or 15 feet?

You CAN do it. I'd rather not, but that's just me. Problem with SA is it IS a lot of extra damage, and if you can apply it that often it's beginning to look unbalancing. Unless the whole rest of the party are high tier. Also, if you did do it, I'd say 10ft maximum. That means reach monsters can still AoO you for trying it.

Person_Man
2010-04-19, 02:52 PM
5th level is a very difficult for a ranged Rogue. You have can't qualify for Greater Manyshot (www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Greater_Manyshot). You have a hard time qualifying for Sneak Attack. And you don't have the gp needed to buy both a high quality magic bow and a variety of magic ammunition.

Assuming that you don't want to use a caster, Incarnate, Soulbow, etc, you might actually want to use a Scout instead. You only give up 1d6 damage, but have a much easier time qualifying.

Alternatively, you can invest in Handle Animal and train mules or other animals to Grapple your enemies.

Whyte_Widow
2010-04-19, 03:44 PM
currently playing a ranged sneak attacker with a different approach.

sorc 6/rog 3/ arcane trickster 4/unseen seer 2

ray attacks galore. granted your skill points and such wont be near as high as the rogue approach. the payout is pretty awesomesauce.

feats-
point blank shot
precise shot
practiced spellcaster
empower spell
rapid metamagic
silent spell (unseen seer)
quicken spell

or you could go rogue and take the dual wand feat... and grab two level 11 wands of scorching ray...

The Cat Goddess
2010-04-19, 03:59 PM
Since I'm DMing this game and willing to take a few liberties with the rules, would it be terribly unbalanced to allow for Ranged Flanking if the Ranged Rogue in question was within a certain distance, say 10 or 15 feet?

There's a Spell that allows you to Threaten in Melee (thus, flank) with a Bow. I believe it also makes it so you don't provoke AoO when you fire... or that may be a different spell.

For a Halfling though, I also recommend throwing instead and going into the Master Thrower class. I had alot of fun with that with my Teifling Rogue. Get Gloves of Endless Javalins (MIC) for never-ending magic ammo.

Edit: This works great if you have a battle-field Tripper in the party... no so much with a Grappler. :smallfurious:

EnnPeeCee
2010-04-19, 04:39 PM
You should consider using the Halfling Rogue substitution levels from RotW, which gives bonus sneak attack dice with ranged attacks. At level 10, it also reduces the "hide after attacking" penalty by 10.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-19, 05:35 PM
The Ranged Threat feat (Dragon # 350, page 90) is what you want. Only works out to 15' range.

Runestar
2010-04-19, 06:11 PM
You may want to consider deadeye shot in PHB2, though it requires a fair amount of coordination with a melee fighter. :smallyuk:

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 06:18 PM
The Ranged Threat feat (Dragon # 350, page 90) is what you want. Only works out to 15' range.

Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] also gains ability to threaten at range, though that's level 8 and their other big ability is level 3 between which they gain rather weak miscellaneous stuff and they're only 2+Int. Still, worth mentioning for completeness if nothing else.

And the spell discussed is Arrow Mind, but it's not that good unless you can persist it. Indeed, this is why I love the Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer shell; getting to level 15 you can persist all the good level 1 and 2 archery spells along with sick SA and if you picked Divine Power through e.g. Arcane Disciple, you'll get completely awesome attack sequences with Quickened Divine Powers to start things off (or just Persist it with Metamagic School Focus in couple of levels).

Math_Mage
2010-04-19, 08:51 PM
Peerless Archer [Silver Marches] also gains ability to threaten at range, though that's level 8 and their other big ability is level 3 between which they gain rather weak miscellaneous stuff and they're only 2+Int. Still, worth mentioning for completeness if nothing else.

And the spell discussed is Arrow Mind, but it's not that good unless you can persist it. Indeed, this is why I love the Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer shell; getting to level 15 you can persist all the good level 1 and 2 archery spells along with sick SA and if you picked Divine Power through e.g. Arcane Disciple, you'll get completely awesome attack sequences with Quickened Divine Powers to start things off (or just Persist it with Metamagic School Focus in couple of levels).

How many of those good archery spells are available to Rangers?

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 09:05 PM
How many of those good archery spells are available to Rangers?

Most. Wizard does it better since he can Persist them though, meaning he isn't stuck choosing between Guided Shot, Hunter's Eye, Sniper's Shot, Golem Strike, Vinestrike, Gravestrike and Arrow Mind. But yeah, Ranger-list contains those and Hunter's Mercy to boot (it's worth noting that there are some he can stack like Find the Gap, Arrow Storm and such that act for a while or a bit differently).

Wizard actually yoinks some of them via. Unseen Seer's Advanced Learning as they're Ranger-exclusive normally. Yay Wizards. Spell Compendium + Archery = good times though, and that's why I love that book for Rangers; turns their spellcasting into something worthwhile (for TWF too).

Dr.Epic
2010-04-19, 09:07 PM
I remember that Order of the Bow Initiate gets to increase the sneak attack range to 60 ft at level ten if you think that might be helpful in your build.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 09:10 PM
I remember that Order of the Bow Initiate gets to increase the sneak attack range to 60 ft at level ten if you think that might be helpful in your build.

This is true, but as it involves taking 10 levels in 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate (don't get confused here, 3.0 OotBI from Sword & Fist is a fine class), I'd rather suggest avoiding it.

The class's main ability means you always only ever take one attack instead of Haste+Rapid Shot+Full attack for ~6 of them making the bonus damage it grants completely inconsequential compared to the damage it gives up in the additional attacks. And the class even requires Rapid Shot so you can't even "gain" a feat there, you're just ****ed.