The Brawler (Base Class, PEACH!)

[BRC]

Choose my weapon? I AM my weapon.
-Storgen the Massive, Brawler.
“My Blood! He punched out all my blood!”
-Theodore, A scout for the Brotherhood of Light Unending, during his encounter with a Brawler.
The Brawler is a warrior of the oldest tradition, fighting with nothing more than the lightest of armor and their bare hands. Though he fights unarmed, there is none of the monk’s grace or skill, a Brawler fights through pure brute strength.
The Brawler
D12 Hit Die
Skills: 4+int modifier at each level. (4+int mod)x4 at first level.
Skill List: Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge Local (Int), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), Profession (Wis) Spot (Wis), Tumble (Dex) and Swim (Str).
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special |
1st | +1 | +2 | +2 | +0 | Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler’s Fists (1d6) |
2nd | +2 | +3 | +3| +0 | Brawler Ability, Brawler's Reflexes
3rd | +3 | +3 | +3| +1 | Speak Softly | Mighty Boast |
4th | +4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (1d8)|
5th | +5 | +4 | +4 | +1 | Supernatural Brawler ability |
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +5 | +2 | Brawler Ability |
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +5| +2 | Hulking Roar |
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +6 | +2 | Brawler Ability, Brawler’s Fists (1d10) |
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +6 | +3 | Subtle Pump |
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Supernatural Brawler Ability, Brawler Ability|
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +7 | +3 | Massive Brute |
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +8 | +4 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (2d6) |
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +8 | +4 | Juggernaut |
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +9 | +4 |Brawler Ability |
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +9 | +5 |Supernatural Brawler Ability |
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +10 | +5 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (2d8) |
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +10 | +6 | Boisterous Nature|
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +11 | +6 | Brawler Ability |
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +11| +6 | Champion |
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +12 | +6 | Supernatural Brawler Ability, Brawler’s Fists (2d10) |
[/table]
Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Brawler is proficient with simple weapons and light armor (But not shields).
Improved Unarmed Strike: At 1st level, a brawler gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat. A brawler’s attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. This means that a brawler may even make unarmed strikes with her hands full. There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a brawler striking unarmed. A brawler may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.
Usually a brawler’s unarmed strikes deal lethal damage, but she can choose to deal nonlethal damage instead with no penalty on her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal lethal or nonlethal damage while grappling.
A brawler’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.
Brawler’s Fists: A Brawler deals additional damage on unarmed strikes as indicated by table: The Brawler. This is the same progression for Monk Unarmed Strike damage, and so the Monk rules can be used for smaller or larger Brawlers.
Brawler's Reflexes: The Brawler's particular brand of fighting inevitably causes it's users to become more skilled than normal at avoiding blows. A Brawler gains an additional +1 dodge bonus at 2nd level, with an additional +1 bonus every 3 levels after that.
Brawler Abilities: As a Brawler becomes more skilled, they develop certain techniques and specialties. At each level indicated on Table: The Brawler, a Brawler may select one of the following abilities. These abilities only function as long as the Brawler is not wearing medium or heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.

Chair, Not a weapon!: A Brawler may use an improvised weapon without penalty, this weapon deals damage as one size larger than the Brawler’s unarmed strike, but cannot be used in conjunction with other special abilities.
Fearless: A Brawler gains a bonus to will saves against fear effects equal to their class level.
Haymaker: A Brawler may treat their unarmed strikes as a two handed weapon.
Rapid Fists: A Brawler may make an extra attack on an unarmed strike full attack, but all attacks this round are made at a -2 penalty.
Improved Rapid Fist: Requires Rapid Fists, a Brawler may apply their rapid fist to any attack (So they could attack twice as a standard action), the -2 penalty still applies for any attacks they make that round.
Follow Through: If a Brawler hits a target with two successive unarmed attacks as part of a full attack action, he may make an extra attack at the attack bonus of the last attack to hit. This ability only functions once a round.
Stunning Fist: The Brawler gains the Stunning Fist feat, usable a number of times per day equal to their Brawler level/2. The save DC=10+1/2 class level + Strength modifier.
Adrenaline Rush: For one round after a Brawler defeats an opponent in combat, the Brawler cannot die or be knocked unconscious. They are not treated as being Disabled at 0 hit points , or dying when below -1. .
Brutish Tactics: The Brawler gains Improved Grapple and Improved Bull Rush as bonus feats.
Cunning Tactics: The Brawler gains Improved Trip and Improved Disarm as bonus feats.
Dirty Fighting: As a standard action, or as part of a full attack, you may sacrifice a normal attack in exchange for a dirty fighting check. You make the attack and damage rolls as normal, but the attack deals no damage. Instead, the target must succeed on a fortitude save (DC 5+damage that would have been dealt) or be treated as flat footed for 1 round.
Uncanny Dodge: The Brawler gains Uncanny Dodge (As the Barbarian ability).
Improved Uncanny Dodge: The Brawler gains improved uncanny dodge. They must already have Uncanny dodge, either from another class, or from the Brawler ability.
Property Damage: The Brawler gains a +4 bonus on strength checks or damage rolls to break inanimate objects.
Unstoppable Charge: The Brawler gains a +4 bonus to armor class against any attacks of opportunity he provokes by charging or bull rushing. In addition, the Brawler may charge over uneven terrain.
Shoving Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge, Improved Bull Rush The Brawler may shove opponents or allies out of the way while making a charge. Treat this as a bull rush check against each opponent, in the Brawler’s path, if the Brawler wins a check, the opponent in question is shoved out of the Brawler’s path, one square to the left or right, whichever is unoccupied. If both squares are unoccupied, it’s the Brawler’s choice. If neither square is available, the target falls prone in their current square.
These bull rush attempts provoke attacks of opportunities as normal.
Madman’s Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge. As a full round action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like. You cannot combine this ability with Corkscrew Charge.

Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability anytime he makes an attack action and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.

Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead.
Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.

Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler’s unarmed strikes deals double damage against flat footed opponents.

Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist or Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action.

Float like a Butterfly: The Brawler Gains Dodge and Mobility as Bonus Feats.

Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus. This stacks with Improved Trip.

Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him. If the Disarm check is successful, the attack is negated.
Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents.

Ringing Ears: As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round.

Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.

Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist (the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through.

Candy from a Baby: Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents.

Supernatural Brawler Abilities: The bravado and spirit necessary to become a Brawler impresses a variety of warrior deities who lend the Brawler power , granting them special abilities. The Brawler does not seek out this power, and it is not contingent on the Brawler following a code or working for the deity in question (The brawler may not even know which Deity is granting them this power). A Brawler may select a supernatural Brawler ability at each level indicated on Table: The Brawler.

Flesh over Steel: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Devil Puncher: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Cold Iron for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Werewolf Boxer: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Magic Hands: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Easy Patient: Any healing effects on a brawler are automatically maximized, though only for the brawler (So a Mass Cure Light Wounds would be maximized for the Brawler, but not for anybody else).
Dress Wearing Pansy!: A Brawler gains Spell Resistance equal to 8+ their current Brawler level.
Ghost Buster: The Brawler's unarmed Strikes are treated as being Ghost Touch for the purpose of hitting incorporeal targets.
A Fist for Good: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Good alignment to take this ability.
The Hand of Evil:The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Evil alignment to take this ability.
The Long arm of the Law: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Lawfully aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Lawful alignment to take this ability.
Unreasonable Assault: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Chaoticly aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. The Brawler must be of Chaotic alignment to take this ability.

Speak Softly: At second level a Brawler may use their Strength modifier instead of their Charisma modifier for Intimidate Checks.
Mighty Boast: Three times a day, a Brawler may psych themselves up with a Boast as a swift action. This boast gives them a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to their class level/3. This bonus lasts for one minute, or until the Brawler fails to deal damage for two consecutive rounds.
Hulking Roar: A 7th level Brawler can, as a swift action, let out a mighty bellow or proclamation. This roar can be heard over nearly any amount of noise, effectively making it a DC -50 listen check to hear him. This bellow can be used to make intimidate checks on all opponents in a 30ft radius, or just to be heard over a loud scuffle.
Subtle Pump: At 9th level the Brawler gains the ability to intimidate with just a glance. Whenever the Brawler successfully intimidates a target they must make a sense motive check against the Brawler’s intimidate check or else think that the brawler wasn’t even trying to intimidate them. This doubles any penalties given by being intimidated and intimidated foes do not become unfriendly after the duration of the effect ends. Any onlookers that may also make a sense motive check against the brawler’s intimidate check. Failure means they do not notice that the brawler actively intimidated the target.
Massive Brute: At 11th level a Brawler learns how best to use their bulk. They are treated as being one size category larger in any situation it would benefit them. However, this does not let them wield larger size weapons or increase their unarmed strike damage. This does not stack with Powerful Build.
Juggernaut: At 13th level the Brawler becomes immune to Death Effects.
Boistrous Nature: At level 17th the Brawler can use his Mighty Boast as often as he desires. Furthermore, whenever he uses Mighty Boast he may make an intimidate check as a free action."

Champion: At 19th level the Brawler has become a living legend. His face is scarred with the marks of a thousand battles, and his name is whispered in taverns across the world. Inkeepers proudly polish the dents his fists make in the walls, placing signs outside their establishments stating that the Brawler once fought there. The Brawler gains Frightful Presence(DC 10+1/2 Character Level+ Charisma Modifier), activated whenever the Brawler attacks, uses their Mighty Boast, or charges. Foes who fail the save DC by more than 8 become panicked for 3d6 rounds, foes who fail the save by less than 8 become shaken for 3d6 rounds. Foes who succeed are immune to the Brawler’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

Feat: Extra Brawler Ability
Prerequisite: You must have at least 2 Brawler abilities.
Benefit: You gain an additional Brawler ability.
Special: You may take this feat multiple times, selecting a different ability each time.

[Taffeta]

Very fun class idea. I also appreciate the build-your-own makeup of it, though I have a few minor issues.


Adrenaline Rush: A Brawler gains temporary hit points equal to half their brawler level (Round down) every time they defeat an opponent of CR equal or greater to the brawlers ECL-2. These hit points last for one minute.
Is pretty bad. Consider; 10 bonus hp at level 20 for knocking out an opponent who likely does a few hundred points of damage in a single attack easily. Or 2 bonus HP per opponent at level 4.
Personally, I'd offer this:
Adrenaline Rush: A Brawler gains fast healing equal to half their brawler level (round down) whenever they defeat an opponent of CR equal to or greater than the brawler's ECL-2. This effect lasts one minute and does not stack, but each additional opponent dropped resets the duration.
The benefit of this ability does not apply if you are above 75% of your maximum HP, though you will still activate it.


Dirty Fighting: ...
This is awesome, primarily because it allows you to render an opponent flatfooted in the middle of a full attack.


Ghostly Strike: ...
Might I suggest renaming this Ghost Bruiser or similar, to keep in line with the other irreverently-named supernatural brawler abilities? :smallbiggrin:

[Lateral]

'S a good class. Kinda helps remove some the weaknesses of the Monk class- incompatible abilities, MAD, and uncustomizability namely. (although all 3 physical skills are needed, however it's the same for most melee classes). Also the higher BAB progression is a good thing. I'm replacing monk with this if I ever play a game of 3.5. (It's my hobby, but I've never actually played or DM'ed a game.) I especially like how you can wear light armor: One of the monk's weaknesses, I feel, is its lack of magic arms and armor. I'd put this in tier 4 with rogues and barbarians; just where a non-magic-or-psionics-using class should be, built properly.

[BRC]

Ghostly Strike Renamed. Also, I added some more supernatural abilities for overcoming alignment based DR.
As for Adrenaline Rush, I don't know about giving them actual Fast Healing, that sounds a little supernatural for a regular brawler ability (The brawler kills somebody, and then the gash in their side closes?) It's supposed to be more "I beat somebody, I feel awesome, RAH!".
My inspiration for this class was thinking "Man, I want to play a monk, too bad they suck". Then I realized I didn't want to play a monk. In fact, few people who want to play a monk actually want to play a monk (as in a semi-mystic kung fu master). What they (or at least I) want to play is somebody who can punch a dragon to death.

The weakness of the Monk class is that it's really unfocused, it's class features don't work together, instead they're just abunch of things that WoTC imagined a semi mystic kung fu master would have.


With the Brawler my goal was to focus all his class features towards one goal, beating the everloving snot out of things. I think I succeeded.

[TheYoungKing]

I would drop the hit die to d10, personally.

[Kuma Kode]

I've actually been looking for a decent unarmed class that isn't based around some kind of eastern lore. It seems Wizards of the Coast believe the Japanese invented the punch. I like this class because it lets me play a character more like Beowulf, who simply ripped a monster's arm off and beat it to death with it, rather than using his Zen wisdom.

Considering they're pretty much a frontline brawler but only have light armor, I'd keep their hit die at d12. Even the barbarian gets medium armor. The brawler just depends more on his ability to take hits and less on armor to outright deflect it.

[BRC]

I've actually been looking for a decent unarmed class that isn't based around some kind of eastern lore. It seems Wizards of the Coast believe the Japanese invented the punch. I like this class because it lets me play a character more like Beowulf, who simply ripped a monster's arm off and beat it to death with it, rather than using his Zen wisdom.

Considering they're pretty much a frontline brawler but only have light armor, I'd keep their hit die at d12. Even the barbarian gets medium armor. The brawler just depends more on his ability to take hits and less on armor to outright deflect it.
Thanks. And yeah, as it's written, the Brawler dosn't have many ways to prevent him/herself from taking damage. He only get's light armor, he needs high Str and Con scores, so he can't sink everything into Dex. He's expected to be on the frontlines, so he can't simply avoid enemies if he wants to be effective. His reflex saves arn't too good either, so he's vulnerable to alot of blasty magics(of course, Dress Wearing Pansey helps against that). Basically, he survives fights by having enough hit points to endure any attacks thrown his way.

Which is kind of what I was going for here. The guy who, no matter what you do to him, simply WILL NOT STOP until he has reduced you to a red smear on the dungeon walls. This is also the reason for the "Easy Patient" Supernatural ability, They have alot of hit points, and they will be taking alot of damage. A Brawler who takes Easy Patient is going to be able to survive that much longer under concentrated attack.

[Taffeta]

As for Adrenaline Rush, I don't know about giving them actual Fast Healing, that sounds a little supernatural for a regular brawler ability (The brawler kills somebody, and then the gash in their side closes?) It's supposed to be more "I beat somebody, I feel awesome, RAH!".

That was actually specifically why I added the stipulation that it maxes out at 75% of max HP and doesn't stack up. I don't really feel that such a small amount of temporary HP is going to help, where as fast healing potentially grants you between 12 and 60 hp spread out over the course of a minute. Just enough to keep you chugging along, bruising through hordes of baddies like it's no big deal, when you're rocking your battle rhythm.

I didn't think it appropriate to give him something that'd cover life-altering (see: -ending) injuries at all, and he should still be looking for a medic come the end of combat, but something small and useful to mirror that very same 'I Feel AWESOME!' effect you were going for, in a simple, preexisting mechanic.

Ultimately though, your class. So do what you feel is best. Maybe a later level 'Walk it Off' supernatural brawler ability along the same lines instead?

[Uncle Festy]

Nice class – I approve.
Heheh, Ghost Buster… :smallbiggrin:
Maybe the Adrenaline rush can be tied to a Crit? Every time you Crit an opponent, you get temporary HP equal to the amount of damage you dealt? Seems to fit the idea of, "I just punched him in the gut! I'm awesome!" except less likely to give you a boost the instant you end the battle.

[Magikeeper]

Why the dead levels? Having a dead level at 18th in particular wouldn't be much fun at all and the dead level at 6th basically screams "take a prestige class".

Fighter bonus feats are a possibility, although here are my suggestions:

Lvl 2 - A non-combat ability befitting a brawler. I'm not sure what that is, but right now the class doesn't help non-combat in any way. Some games are more non-combat than others, so it would be nice for the class to give them something to do when people aren't getting all of their blood punched out.

lvl 6 - Another non-combat ability. Not just an improvement on the level 2 ability unless that ability was really general.

lvl 14 - A combat ability. The brawler has some awesome moves (Str-based stunning fist!?), but he isn't dealing enough damage at this level.

lvl 18 - A player that reaches this level is either heading into Epic or about to retire. This ability should be useful to one or both of those groups. Also, anyone who reaches this point didn't take >3 levels of a prestige class*! Keep that in mind. Too many classes don't give me any reason to stick with them.
*Or is epic.

[BRC]

Why the dead levels? Having a dead level at 18th in particular wouldn't be much fun at all and the dead level at 6th basically screams "take a prestige class".

Fighter bonus feats are a possibility, although here are my suggestions:

Lvl 2 - A non-combat ability befitting a brawler. I'm not sure what that is, but right now the class doesn't help non-combat in any way. Some games are more non-combat than others, so it would be nice for the class to give them something to do when people aren't getting all of their blood punched out.

lvl 6 - Another non-combat ability. Not just an improvement on the level 2 ability unless that ability was really general.

lvl 14 - A combat ability. The brawler has some awesome moves (Str-based stunning fist!?), but he isn't dealing enough damage at this level.

lvl 18 - A player that reaches this level is either heading into Epic or about to retire. This ability should be useful to one or both of those groups. Also, anyone who reaches this point didn't take >3 levels of a prestige class*! Keep that in mind. Too many classes don't give me any reason to stick with them.
*Or is epic.
All I can really think about that fits the flavor of the class is a Str bonus to indimidate checks, which some people allow anyway.

How about this for Adrenaline Rush

For one round after a Brawler defeats an opponent in combat, the Brawler cannot die or be knocked unconscious. They are not treated as being Disabled at 0 hit points , or dying when below -1.

It seems a little powerful, but since the effect ends unless they finish off an opponent each round, I think it's okay.


Also, currently they lose class features in medium or heavy armor. I'm considering dropping that, and just making them spend extra feats if they want better armor proficiency.

[Kuma Kode]

Maybe Mettle for one of the dead levels (essentially Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves).

Or perhaps adapt Knockout Punch (http://d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/knockout.punch.php) and Improved Knockout Punch (http://d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/improved.knockout.punch.php) from d20 Modern?

[BRC]

Maybe Mettle for one of the dead levels (essentially Evasion for Fortitude and Will saves).

Or perhaps adapt Knockout Punch (http://d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/knockout.punch.php) and Improved Knockout Punch (http://d20resources.com/modern.d20.srd/feats/improved.knockout.punch.php) from d20 Modern?
Hrm
Second Level Speak Softly: A Brawler may add their Strength bonus to indimidate checks.
6th level: Mighty Boast: Three times a day a Brawler may psych themselves up with a boast. They gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls for one minute or until they spend two consecutive rounds without dealing damage.

[Magikeeper]

Hrm
6th level: Mighty Boast: Three times a day a Brawler may psych themselves up with a boast. They gain a +3 bonus on attack and damage rolls for one minute or until they spend two consecutive rounds without dealing damage.

Hmm... could the bonus increase by 1 every 4 additional levels?

I guess the 14th level could give pounce. Trying to think of a better idea.

The 18th level could grant both mettle and evasion! Or rather, an ability that works like both of them combined. It is 18th level after all.

I like the new rush. Although it can be abused by punching a bag of rats while walking through the lava. An encounter limit could work. Say, once per encounter. That would more than enough for an ability that makes you immortal for 1 round.

I think fearless should just make you immune to fear. I can't see someone taking the current version over the other abilities.

[BRC]

Maybe at 14th level they get immunity to death effects. I guess that fits, force opponents to whittle down their hit points instead of just hitting them with a Finger of Death.

Also, the image of a big burly guy walking waist deep in lava, punching a Bag of Rats every six seconds is too awesome for me to fix that loophole (Though hopefully DM's using this will stop it).

[Cute_Riolu]

Assuming I recall correctly, one can already initiate a grapple at the end of a charge: it's an attack action.

Also, this class seems really cool, though it feels like it's missing something. Oh, duh, a capstone.

Recommendation for abilities: Make unarmed strikes one-handed weapons at first level, as opposed to light weapons, and at some point change them to two-handed?

[BRC]

Assuming I recall correctly, one can already initiate a grapple at the end of a charge: it's an attack action.

Also, this class seems really cool, though it feels like it's missing something. Oh, duh, a capstone.

Recommendation for abilities: Make unarmed strikes one-handed weapons at first level, as opposed to light weapons, and at some point change them to two-handed?
Beatcha to it. The Haymaker ability does that.
also, starting a grapple is a melee attack roll, but nowhere does it say it's an attack action.

[Kuma Kode]

Beatcha to it. The Haymaker ability does that.
also, starting a grapple is a melee attack roll, but nowhere does it say it's an attack action. It does mention that you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times if you have a high base attack bonus, indicating that it simply takes the place of a normal attack. I also think there's something about such a charge+grapple combo in the FAQ, and the answer was the +2 from the charge applies to the touch attack to initiate the grapple, not to the grapple check. I'll go check...

Ah, here we go. Page 141 of the Player's Handbook, on the table, Grapple has a superscript 7, just like Disarm and Trip. The seven indicates: "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used in an attack or charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity." (Emphasis mine).

So yes, a grapple attack may be made at the end of a charge.

[Milskidasith]

This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.

It's also worth a dip as a fighter, just because you can grab two feats in one level (clever/brutish tactics) or the charge ability so that you can have your ubercharger be less powerful.

As far as a non one level dip class, though, this is only stronger than the monk due to more HP and better BAB.

[BRC]

This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.

It's also worth a dip as a fighter, just because you can grab two feats in one level (clever/brutish tactics) or the charge ability so that you can have your ubercharger be less powerful.

As far as a non one level dip class, though, this is only stronger than the monk due to more HP and better BAB.
Okay, I don't pretend to be an infallible expert on class power, and my purpose here wasn't to make the ultimate powerhouse, but I'm going to have to argue this point.
First of all better BAB and more HP are big things, especially since one of the main weaknesses of the monk is their ability to make five attacks a round without hitting anything. Secondly, you're forgetting about their ability to wear armor, or the extra abilities, many of which I'm pretty sure Monk's don't get, or get at a point way too late to be useful. Not to mention that Brawlers only really need to worry about Str, Con, and Dex (And less than Monks do on all counts, and most all the Melee classes need to worry about those stats), instead of Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha, and maybe Int.

As for "No Combat Utility", where do you get that? How do you define Combat Utility. Do I need to give them a Save-or-Die DC 50 with every hit? The ability to auto-grapple every enemy within 30 feet at no penalty?

[Magikeeper]

This is outright terrible. It's a monk with a worse flurry and a few other abilities, but decent hit die and BAB. At best, it's useful as a one level dip to force enemies to be flat footed, but really, this thing has no combat utility.

To be more specific:

Powerful status attacks <check>
Defensive abilities (once additions are made) <check>
Able to kill actually foes past early levels <Not Check>

That's why I suggested a combat ability at level 14. As in, an ability that helps you kill people. Mighty boast will help at lower levels and remain useful if it scales like I suggested, but Milsk has a point.

I would say have the level 14 ability be the immunity, the level 18 ability be the super evasion+mettle ability, level 6 be scaling boast, and level 2 be the STR intimidate for now and to add more higher-level abilities to the brawler list.

Examples:

Greater Rapid Fists: Requires Rapid Fists. The brawler can use his rapid strike as part of any attack, although he still take a -2 penalty on all attacks made that round. For example, he could attack twice as a standard action. This ability stacks with the Snap Kick feat, although the total penalty would be -4. This penalty stacks with itself every time a brawler uses it in the same round.

Crazy Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge or Shoving Charge or Tackle. As a fullround action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like.

Blood Beater: Requires Haymaker or Brutish Tactics – As a standard action the brawler can make a single unarmed strike attack that deals double damage. Living opponents must make a fort save (DC 10 + ½ class level + str) or be sickened for 1 round.

[Milskidasith]

Okay, I don't pretend to be an infallible expert on class power, and my purpose here wasn't to make the ultimate powerhouse, but I'm going to have to argue this point.
[QUOTE]First of all better BAB and more HP are big things, especially since one of the main weaknesses of the monk is their ability to make five attacks a round without hitting anything.

No, one of the main weaknesses of the monk is the fact they have wildly disparate class abilities that don't benefit each other, making them essentially a medium BAB class with no real features. Yeah, medium BAB hurts them, but having full BAB wouldn't make them any better.


Secondly, you're forgetting about their ability to wear armor, or the extra abilities, many of which I'm pretty sure Monk's don't get, or get at a point way too late to be useful. Not to mention that Brawlers only really need to worry about Str, Con, and Dex (And less than Monks do on all counts, and most all the Melee classes need to worry about those stats), instead of Str, Con, Dex, Wis, Cha, and maybe Int.

Yes, monks are more MAD and have less defensive options. That doesn't mean that this class has *any* combat power, at all.


As for "No Combat Utility", where do you get that? How do you define Combat Utility. Do I need to give them a Save-or-Die DC 50 with every hit? The ability to auto-grapple every enemy within 30 feet at no penalty?

No, they simply need to be relevant in combat. Their abilities do nothing that you can't get with a fighter, either through using different weapons (two handed attacks), or actual feats, with a few that are only useful if you invest a ton of feats into doing one specific thing, which you don't have the feats for (charging through people).

Simply put, this class has *no* way to do any relevant amount of damage. Sure, it's got HP and armor, but it has no way to move around in combat, is less capable of forcing status effects than a fighter, deals less damage than the fighter, and many of its abilities (such as making the enemy flat footed) seem only useful if you dip to grab them. If you want a class that is actually relevant in combat, (and by that I mean more than a meatshield that occasionally connects for low damage), look at the warblade, or at the very least, what a semi optimized chain tripper/ubercharger can do; this can't even match the extremely limited tricks a fighter has, so it's hardly worth it.

To put it in simple terms: This class has almost no class features, and what it gets are basically a very limited, very diverse (which is bad; you need to focus on one thing, not be slightly better than terrible at ten) list of fighter bonus feats and a few non synergistic unique bonuses that are far better for dipping than for staying in the class (flat footed for a rogue 19/brawler 1 is awesome, flat footed for a brawler 20 is a slightly better chance to hit at the cost of losing one fourth of his damage).

[BRC]

To be more specific:

Powerful status attacks <check>
Defensive abilities (once additions are made) <check>
Able to kill actually foes past early levels <Not Check>

That's why I suggested a combat ability at level 14. As in, an ability that helps you kill people. Mighty boast will help at lower levels and remain useful if it scales like I suggested, but Milsk has a point.

I would say have the level 14 ability be the immunity, the level 18 ability be the super evasion+mettle ability, level 6 be scaling boast, and level 2 be the STR intimidate for now and to add more higher-level abilities to the brawler list.

Examples:

Greater Rapid Fists: Requires Rapid Fists. The brawler can use his rapid strike as part of any attack, although he still take a -2 penalty on all attacks made that round. For example, he could attack twice as a standard action. This ability stacks with the Snap Kick feat, although the total penalty would be -4. This penalty stacks with itself every time a brawler uses it in the same round.

Crazy Charge: Requires Unstoppable Charge or Shoving Charge or Tackle. As a fullround action, the brawler can move up to double his speed in any direction. He can make one attack on each enemy he threatens during this movement at his full base attack bonus. This ability has all of the terrain restrictions a charge attack has, and the bonuses from Unstoppable Charge apply to this ability. This ability is not, however, a charge attack for the purposes of valorous weapons and the like.

Blood Beater: Requires Haymaker or Brutish Tactics – As a standard action the brawler can make a single unarmed strike attack that deals double damage. Living opponents must make a fort save (DC 10 + ½ class level + str) or be sickened for 1 round.
Here were the 6th, 14th, and 18th level abilities I had in mind, but they could be changed.
Mighty Boast: Three times a day, a Brawler may psych themselves up with a Boast as a swift action. This boast gives them a bonus on attack and damage rolls equal to their class level/3. This bonus lasts for one minute, or until the Brawler fails to deal damage for two consecutive rounds.
Juggernaught: At 14th level the Brawler becomes immune to Death Effects.
Champion: At 18th level the Brawler has become a living legend. His face is scarred with the marks of a thousand battles, and his name is whispered in taverns across the world. Inkeepers proudly polish the dents his fists make in the walls, placing signs outside their establishments stating that the Brawler once fought there. The Brawler gains Frightful Presence(DC 10+1/2 Character Level+ Charisma Modifier), activated whenever the Brawler attacks, uses their Mighty Boast, or charges. Foes who fail the save DC by more than 8 become panicked for 3d6 rounds, foes who fail the save by less than 8 become shaken for 3d6 rounds. Foes who succeed are immune to the Brawler’s frightful presence for 24 hours.

But I think I get what you're saying. More abilities that directly help the Brawler take down high-level, high HP foes, or give them a Focus.
Here are some ideas I had, not sure how well they work. What I think I might go for is a class based around neutralizing opponents somehow (Tripping/Disarming them for example), then following through with hefty damage.
Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler deals double damage against flat footed opponents.
Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist, Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action.
Mobility: Maybe as a Bonus Feat(not a Brawler ability). It would fit with the flavor of the class.
Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus.
Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him.
Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents.
Massive Brute (Maybe give them to this at 10th level) The Brawler is treated as being one size category larger for the purpose of Trip, Grapple, and Bull Rush attempts.
Ringing Ears: Requires Haymaker. As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round.
Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent.
Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist, Improved Rapid Fist(the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through.
Candy from a Baby Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents.

Edit: What I might try to do is give the Brawler 3 clear directions they can go, and try to focus his abilities on supporting those things: Charges, Full Attacks, and status effects (Tripping, disarming, bull rushing, grappling).

[Cute_Riolu]

Injury to Insult: You can already make an attack after tripping someone if you have Improved Trip.

[Magikeeper]

I added stuff to the below quote in italics. Also you mention “cunning tactics” when that ability does not exist. I assume you meant “clever tactics”. You also mention improved rapid fists which don’t exist either (unless you meant the greater rapid fists I suggested… improved would work better name wise actually…)


But I think I get what you're saying. More abilities that directly help the Brawler take down high-level, high HP foes, or give them a Focus.
Here are some ideas I had, not sure how well they work. What I think I might go for is a class based around neutralizing opponents somehow (Tripping/Disarming them for example), then following through with hefty damage.

Sucker Punch: Requires Dirty Fighting. A Brawler deals double damage against flat footed opponents. I like this.

Beatdown: Requires Rapid Fist, Follow Through, if a Brawler hits an opponent with an unarmed strike as part of a full attack, any subsequent attacks he makes that round deal an additional 1d6 damage, this stacks for multiple hits as part of the same action. This is good. I’m not sure it needs two requirements so maybe “Rapid fist or Follow Through”. I like the idea of each brawler having different yet related ability combinations. Let’s see, with only 1 requirement a PC could have this at level 3. He could make 2 attacks and deal +1d6 on the second. That’s fine at level 3. High level brawlers would want both prereqs anyway.

Mobility: Maybe as a Bonus Feat(not a Brawler ability). It would fit with the flavor of the class. Perhaps: “The brawler gains dodge and mobility as bonus feats.” This would become a common dip, but a bunch of other abilities are dip-able so I guess it is okay. Maybe. Might need a requirement.

Injury to Insult: Requires Cunning Tactics. Any time a Brawler successfully trips or disarms an opponent, they may make an attack at their full attack bonus. ”This ability stacks with improved trip.” Note that if you trip someone with Kewtd you are going to get 2 attacks that deal 2x damage. Which I think is okay for a 3 ability combo, personally.

Even the Field: Requires Cunning Tactics, when fighting defensively, a Brawler may attempt to Disarm any opponents that attack him. Add “if they are successfully disarmed, the attack fails.” Otherwise okay.

Kick em while they're down: A Brawler deals double damage against Prone opponents. Good.

Massive Brute (Maybe give them to this at 10th level) The Brawler is treated as being one size category larger for the purpose of Trip, Grapple, and Bull Rush attempts. Yeah, just giving them the “Powerful Build” trait at level 10 would be fine.

Ringing Ears: Requires Haymaker. As a standard action, a Brawler may make an unarmed attack. If this hits, the opponent must make a DC (10+damage dealt) Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 round. This doesn’t do much in combat unless you hit them in the surprise round (penalty to initiative). I don’t think this needs a requirement. If at any point you need to cut something this is a good candidate.

Close and Personal: Anytime a Brawler enters an opponents square (to make a Grapple check, a Bull Rush check or to try to pass through) they may make an attack of opportunity against that opponent. Interesting.

Artful Barrage: A Brawler may make an Artful Barrage instead of a Full Attack. Each attack is made at the Brawler's full attack bonus, however, if a Brawler misses on any of the attacks they lose the rest of the attacks for that round. This ability stacks with Rapid Fist, Improved Rapid Fist(the -2 penalty still applies to each attack), Beatdown, and Follow Through. This is very powerful, but not at low levels so I can understand the lack of a requirement. Nice ability.

Candy from a Baby Requires Dirty Fighting .A Brawler gains a +4 bonus on grapple, disarm, trip, and bull rush checks against flat footed or stunned opponents. Nice ability

I have some ideas to go with the mobility ability:

Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability any number of times per round and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.

Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead. Yes, with constant sway he could step through a medium sized target. Also combos with Close And Personal.

Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.


Clearly by the time we are all done the brawler will have 700 abilities that cover every form of unarmed combat. And there will be much rejoicing.

On another note, I think the Brawler could gain a Brawler ability ever odd level. I mean, in addition to the supernatural ones. If only to keep a constant pattern. I like constant patterns… although I suppose that is a personal preference. At this rate the brawler will have way more than 10 awesome abilities.

[BRC]

I added stuff to the below quote in italics. Also you mention “cunning tactics” when that ability does not exist. I assume you meant “clever tactics”. You also mention improved rapid fists which don’t exist either (unless you meant the greater rapid fists I suggested… improved would work better name wise actually…)



I have some ideas to go with the mobility ability:

Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability any number of times per round and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.

Big Stepper: Whenever the brawler takes a 5ft step he may take a 10ft step instead. Yes, with constant sway he could step through a medium sized target. Also combos with Close And Personal.

Corkscrew Charge: The Brawler does not have to move in a straight line while charging.


Clearly by the time we are all done the brawler will have 700 abilities that cover every form of unarmed combat. And there will be much rejoicing.

On another note, I think the Brawler could gain a Brawler ability ever odd level. I mean, in addition to the supernatural ones. If only to keep a constant pattern. I like constant patterns… although I suppose that is a personal preference. At this rate the brawler will have way more than 10 awesome abilities.
One of the nifty things about how the class is built is that a DM can look through it and ban individual ability choices without really messing up the entire class.
Edit: Those abilities look good, but I think we need to make it clear that Constant Sway is done as part of an attack. Right now, it looks like you can attack unlimited times per round provided you move 5ft each time.

Also, I made ringing ears with fighting Casters in mind. Spells with verbal components suffer a 20% failure chance of the caster is deafened.

Edit: I used "Massive Brute" instead of just giving them Powerful Build because Powerful Build would also boost their Unarmed Strike Damage.


Also, concerning Dips. I think I have it so Brawler abilities only work when fighting Unarmed and wearing light armor.

[Magikeeper]

Also, concerning Dips. I think I have it so Brawler abilities only work when fighting Unarmed and wearing light armor.

You don't mention the unarmed restriction at the moment. Adding that would stop most dips.

Constant Sway: The Brawler can take a 5ft step while making an attack. The Brawler must threaten the target of the attack during the entire move. I.E. The brawler could not step away from a target. He can use this ability anytime he makes an attack action and it does not count against the number of 5ft steps he can make per round.

[Lateral]

Actually, it could be a great dip for a Rogue- the good BAB and d12 hit dice are attractive to a melee rogue, and so is getting a brawler ability-Dirty Fighting would be great, except it takes a standard action so you couldn't do it then sneak attack w/o full attack and if you full attack you'd have to use your best attack bonus for the dirty fighting and the next one for sneak attack. That just requires light armor and not 2-handed weapons.

[BRC]

While coming up with new abilities is awesome (And I'll probably put these new ones into the first post when I have the chance) there are some questions concerning the class that I feel need to be answered.

1) Right now, a Brawler's abilities only work in light or no armor. Should I get rid of that, and just not give the Brawler medium or Heavy armor proficiency?
Doing so would just mean every brawler would do a fighter dip, and run around in full plate, so prolly not.

2) A Brawler's abilities require the Brawler to be fighting unarmed. This makes sense for most of their abilities, but not all.
Should I go through and specify which abilities require the Brawler to be unarmed? Or should I just put a blanket "These don't work when fighting with a weapon"?

Currently, a Brawler is only multiclass friendly if it forms the core of the build. A Multiclass Barb/Brawler or Fighter/Brawler can be effective, but they'd largely just be a Brawler. I don't want this to be a dip-only class, but I also want to give people using it the ability to craft the character they want. I'm not opposed to somebody making a multiclass Fighter/Brawler who wears light armor, took the Brawler abilities that don't require fighting unarmed, and using a greatsword. But I'm willing to ban that if limiting all their powers to when fighting unarmed is the only way to stop it from being nothing but a dip class.


Edit: It looks like we've got two basic directions for the Brawler right now. The Wrestler (Trip/bull rush/grapple/disarm, and deal extra damage while doing so) and the Boxer (Full attack for massive damage). I like that.

[ForzaFiori]

Maybe have a feat to let you get extra brawler abilities too. If you can do it with maneuvers, why not these?

[BRC]

Maybe have a feat to let you get extra brawler abilities too. If you can do it with maneuvers, why not these?
Hrmm. Maybe.
Also, I just realized a nasty combo.
Dirty Fighting+Close and Personal+Hit em while they're down+Candy from a baby+ Clever Tactics+ Injury to Insult.

As part of you're trip attempt, you move into the opponent's square. Close and Personal gives you an attack when you do this. Use that attack for Dirty Fighting, rendering them flat footed, this means Candy from a Baby gives you an additional bonus on your trip check.
Injury to Insult+Imp Trip+Hewtd=2 attacks at a x2 bonus and they're tripped.
If you also have sucker punch, that would be 2 attacks at a x3 bonus (IIRC DnD Multipliers are logarithmic, x2+x2=x3).
Of course, such a combo requires ALOT of brawler abilities, so I'm okay with it. That's really a theme I like for the Brawler abilities. Individually they're okay, but they can synergize very well if you pick the right ones.

[Lyndworm]

I love this class. I don't really have anything to add to it, I just wanted to sow my support.

[Magikeeper]

The easiest way to prevent dips is thus:

> Have the brawler gain brawler abilities on even levels. I.E., 2-4-6-8-10-12-14-16-18-20. It would still be dippable, but much less so for tight builds.

That would result in a table kinda like this:
{table=head]Level | Base Attack Bonus | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special |
1st | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Improved Unarmed Strike, Brawler’s Fists (1d6) |
2nd | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Brawler Ability |
3rd | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | Speak Softly |
4th | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (1d8)|
5th | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Supernatural Brawler ability |
6th | +6/+1 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Brawler Ability |
7th | +7/+2 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Mighty Boast |
8th | +8/+3 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Brawler Ability, Brawler’s Fists (1d10) |
9th | +9/+4 | +6 | +3 | +3 | |
10th | +10/+5 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Supernatural Brawler Ability, Brawler Ability|
11th | +11/+6/+1 | +7 | +3 | +3 | |
12th | +12/+7/+2 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (2d6) |
13th | +13/+8/+3 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Juggernaught |
14th | +14/+9/+4 | +9 | +4 | +4 |Brawler Ability |
15th | +15/+10/+5 | +9 | +5 | +5 |Supernatural Brawler Ability |
16th | +16/+11/+6/+1 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Brawler Ability , Brawler’s Fists (2d8) |
17th | +17/+12/+7/+2 | +10 | +6 | +6 | |
18th | +18/+13/+8/+3 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Brawler Ability |
19th | +19/+14/+9/+4 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Champion |
20th | +20/+15/+10/+5 | +12 | +6 | +6 | Supernatural Brawler Ability, Brawler’s Fists (2d10) |
[/table]

There would be new dead levels at 9th, 11th, and 17th. Although I think Mighty boast is kinda weird at level 7 - it could be added to level 3 alongside speak softly. It would only be +1 attack/damage at level 3. Doing this would leave the following dead levels:

7-9-11-17

Level 17 could be "Boisterous Nature: At level 17th the Brawler can use his Mighty Boast as often as he desires. Furthermore, whenever he uses Mighty Boast he may make an intimidate check as a free action."

Level 11 could be Massive Brute

Level 9 and 7 could be... perhaps something that can double as non-combat abilities? I actually managed to think of some that fit the brawler:

Level 7 – Hulking Roar: A 7th level Brawler can, as a swift action, let out a mighty bellow or proclamation. This roar can be heard over nearly any amount of noise, effectively making it a DC -50 listen check to hear him. This bellow can be used to make intimidate checks on all opponents in a 30ft radius, or just to be heard over a loud scuffle.

Level 9 – Subtle Pump: At 9th level the Brawler gains the ability to intimidate with just a glance. Whenever the Brawler successfully intimidates a target they must make a sense motive check against the Brawler’s intimidate check or else think that the brawler wasn’t even trying to intimidate them. This doubles any penalties given by being intimidated and intimidated foes do not become unfriendly after the duration of the effect ends. Any onlookers that may also make a sense motive check against the brawler’s intimidate check. Failure means they do not notice that the brawler actively intimidated the target.

[BRC]

Hmm, Brawler abilities on even levels should work. Helps prevent Dips, but dosn't make Multiclassing impossible.

As for an "Extra Brawler Ability" Feat. I think I'll allow it, but give it a requirement of Brawler Level 3rd or something.
The point is, I don't want somebody taking 1 Brawler level in order to get 2 feats for the price of 1 with things like Brutal and Cunning tactics.

[Magikeeper]

As for an "Extra Brawler Ability" Feat. I think I'll allow it, but give it a requirement of Brawler Level 3rd or something.
The point is, I don't want somebody taking 1 Brawler level in order to get 2 feats for the price of 1 with things like Brutal and Cunning tactics.


How about: Prerequisite : Base Attack Bonus +6, Two Brawler Abilties

That requires you be at least a 6th level PC with at least 4 levels of Brawler. I'm not sure I'd let you take the feat multiple times, but this helps allow Brawlers to multi-class a little.

What is your opinion on my other suggestions?

[BRC]

How about: Prerequisite : Base Attack Bonus +6, Two Brawler Abilties

That requires you be at least a 6th level PC with at least 4 levels of Brawler. I'm not sure I'd let you take the feat multiple times, but this helps allow Brawlers to multi-class a little.

What is your opinion on my other suggestions?
I like them. I'll update the first post as soon as I get around to it.

Edit: That feat format is good. It also stops a straight brawler from pulling off some of the nastier ability combos at low levels by spending Feats.

[BRC]

First post Updated. I need to clean up the formatting, but I'll do that later.

[NakedCelt]

So many people have independently thought of making unarmed warrior classes called "The Brawler", I've started collecting them... there's this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6426076) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3350315) and this one (cough) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53334) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45038) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39972) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26329) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11110) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11783) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56408) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31001) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47103) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11608) and, on a different board, this one (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3724), and I'm sure plenty more. Maybe someone should drop a hint to Wizards of the Coast.

[Magikeeper]

So many people have independently thought of making unarmed warrior classes called "The Brawler", I've started collecting them... there's this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6426076) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3350315) and this one (cough) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53334) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45038) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39972) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=26329) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11110) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11783) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56408) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31001) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47103) and this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11608) and, on a different board, this one (http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3724), and I'm sure plenty more. Maybe someone should drop a hint to Wizards of the Coast.

Lets compare!


Brawler one – slightly changed monk. Whoop? Con to AC makes it a better dip choice for most martial PCs, though. Still can’t kill high level opponents.

Brawler two – Way too many dead levels. If those levels were filled with useful abilities that played into the theme it could be good. Also, he needs some kind of ability to simply not die. “I have more power when between 0 and -22hp! Oh, you deal 30dmg a hit? Darn.”

Brawler three – Really nice class to take a few levels in, but the constant cries of ‘nerf’ ‘nerf’ seem to have resulted in a lack of powerful kill-my-foes abilities later on. Then again, rage and full bab could make it an okay charging build. Except those builds usually want reach weapons. Edit: Looks like either the best or 2nd best of the first 9.

Brawler four- Two dead levels and too many 1/day abilities. Also, this class is completely screwed up. It might actually be okay with full BAB, but it is such a messed up class. Wait, it has full bab -1. Weird.

Brawler Five - Where is the class? Table was removed and never put back?

Brawler Six – I might prefer monk over this class. I mean, I wouldn’t play either of them but I might at least dip into monk. He took away monk abilities to add full bab and light armor use.

Brawler Seven – 5 dead levels. Also, not very strong. I would suggest having dirty fighting go back to working like skirmish and give the class the ability to make multiple attacks after moving.

Brawler Eight - Brawler 3 does this better. This has 2 dead levels and at least monk is dip-worthy.

Brawler Nine – This looks okay. I’d actually have to carefully study this one. Edit: Looks like the best or second best of the first 9.

Darn, I am out of time. I am REALLY hoping one of the next Brawlers is totally awesome so I don’t sound overly pessimistic. BRC's is currently my favorite.

[Cute_Riolu]

Looking good... Looks like you could use some more supernatural abilities, though. However, given its flavor, it seems that it would be best were they not overt.

I do have an ulterior motive in that, though. One of my players in a low magic game is thinking on this class. :P

[BRC]

Looking good... Looks like you could use some more supernatural abilities, though. However, given its flavor, it seems that it would be best were they not overt.

I do have an ulterior motive in that, though. One of my players in a low magic game is thinking on this class. :P
AWESOME. Tell me how it goes.

Some more Supernats would be nice, but I don't know what to do for those. They should be subtle things, not "The Brawlers fist lights on fire" or anything, externally, one shouldn't be able to recognize the ability at all, except through careful study. A Brawler may not even realize they possess these abilities. Upon being told that you need silver weapons to hurt werewolves, they might just say "Huh, you do? I headbutted one to death just last week". Maybe something like
Warriors Blessing: Increase your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution by 1 point.
Tough Skin: You gain DR/- equal to your brawler level/5.

[Cute_Riolu]

Heheh, I will. It might be a bit, though, I'm still getting things together for it. And yeah, that's exactly the kind of things I was thinking. I'll think on it and get back to you with some more abilities. :3

[Lyndworm]

AWESOME. Tell me how it goes.

Some more Supernats would be nice, but I don't know what to do for those. They should be subtle things, not "The Brawlers fist lights on fire" or anything, externally, one shouldn't be able to recognize the ability at all. Maybe something like
Warriors Blessing: Increase your Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution by 1 point.
Tough Skin: You gain DR/- equal to your brawler level/5.

Warrior's Blessing seems good, but Tough Skin is kind of pointless. At level 5 you have DR1/-. At level 10 you have DR2/-. At level 15 you have DR3/-. At level 20 you only receive DR4/-.

Brawler level divided by two might be a little better, but I won't swear that this won't seem very powerful at lower levels.

[molten_dragon]

It looks pretty cool at first glance. I think most of the rest of the people here have covered what I might say, but I do have one minor suggestion.


Chair, Not a weapon!: A Brawler may use an improvised weapon without penalty, this weapon deals damage as one size larger than the Brawler’s unarmed strike, but cannot be used in conjunction with other special abilities.

This ability is a little bit unclear, specifically the part about how much damage it deals. Does it deal damage as if the brawler were a size category larger, or does it deal damage equal to the next step up on the unarmed damage chart.

For example, a 6th level brawler normally deals 1d8 damage with an unarmed strike. Would he deal 1d10, or 2d6 damage when using the 'Chair, not a weapon' ability? If it's the former, what happens if a level 20 brawler uses this ability?

[BRC]

It looks pretty cool at first glance. I think most of the rest of the people here have covered what I might say, but I do have one minor suggestion.



This ability is a little bit unclear, specifically the part about how much damage it deals. Does it deal damage as if the brawler were a size category larger, or does it deal damage equal to the next step up on the unarmed damage chart.

For example, a 6th level brawler normally deals 1d8 damage with an unarmed strike. Would he deal 1d10, or 2d6 damage when using the 'Chair, not a weapon' ability? If it's the former, what happens if a level 20 brawler uses this ability?
Chair, not a weapon does need a better description. Hrm, maybe like this.
"Chair, not a weapon!": When using a large improvised weapon a Brawler takes no penalty. The weapon is counted as being wielded with both hands and cannot be finessed, When using such a weapon the brawler deals damage as if they were one size category larger and using their Unarmed Strike, or the damage the improvised weapon would do normally, whichever is higher.
"Barroom Assassin": when using a small, sharp improvised weapon (Like a broken bottle), a Brawler takes no penalty on attack rolls. In addition, their critical hit multiplier with unarmed strikes goes up by one.

[Magikeeper]

Edit: Yeah, I think man of the book is underpowered. Replacing the joke +10 circumstance bonus on bluff checks made to convince people you know stuff about religion with the ghost touch ability. So Man of the Book is now the undead-ridden-game ability of choice. I changed the mindless undead/outsider ability to something more fun. Now it makes them both easier to run from and easier to chase down!
Edit 2: Huh. I forgot that DR/Magic also causes your natural attacks to count as being magical...
Edit 3: Added an ability to Man of the Streets.


I was just thinking about the supernaturals.

Suggestions:

Man of the Land: The brawler gains scent, a +2 natural armor bonus, and his speed increases by 10ft. Also, the Brawler can ignore the racial immunities of plants, vermin, and magical beasts when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt.

Man of the Book: The brawler gains DR X/Magic, where X is equal to his class level divided by 4 (rounded down). Also, the Brawler can ignore the racial immunities of outsiders and undead when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt. Mindless outsiders/undead that are intimidated in this way move at half speed. Furthermore, the brawler can now attack incorporeal targets as though his unarmed strikes had the ghost touch special quality.

Man of the Inanimate: The brawler gains Resistance X against all elements, where X is equal to twice his class level. Also, the Brawler can ignore the racial immunities of elementals and constructs when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt. Furthermore, the brawler no longer needs to eat, drink, or breathe although he can still do so. He still needs to sleep.

Man of the Crazed: The Brawler gains 10ft Blindsight and becomes immune to any effect that would be suppressed by Protection From Evil. Also, the Brawler can ignore the racial immunities of fey and aberrations when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt.

Man of the Streets:: The Brawler can take '10' on any strength-based check, even when distracted or threatened. Also, the Brawler can ignore the racial immunities of humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and animals when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt. I’m not sure there are any humanoids or animals that have such a racial immunity. Note that the ability would work for intimidate.

I would change “Magic Hands” into the following:
Edit: DR/magic grants the magic hands effect, so I added in "dress wearing pansy!" as well:

Mage Puncher: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction and he gains Spell Resistance equal to 8 + his current Brawler level. Also, the Brawler can ignore magically granted immunities when making intimidate checks. This includes supernatural class abilities. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt, which stacks with other abilities if the creature would normally be doubly immune (Like an undead lich that cast mindblank).



I like the intimidate parts, not sure if I picked the right battle abilities to go with them.

[Averagedog]

Have you considered having the brawler be eligible for fighter bonus feats much in the same way Warblades are?

[Lyndworm]

I still love this class, by the way, and desperately want to try it out on a Thri-Kreen, but that's unrelated to the nature of this post. :smalltongue:

I wanted to comment on the Mage Puncher ability that Magikeeper suggested. In my opinion, SR 8+Class levels is kind of weak. Anything less than 10+Class levels is sort of a joke, because any caster who would bother targeting you can make the check more than 50% of the time. Just throwing that out there.

[Cute_Riolu]

I still love this class, by the way, and desperately want to try it out on a Thri-Kreen, but that's unrelated to the nature of this post. :smalltongue:

I wanted to comment on the Mage Puncher ability that Magikeeper suggested. In my opinion, SR 8+Class levels is kind of weak. Anything less than 10+Class levels is sort of a joke, because any caster who would bother targeting you can make the check more than 50% of the time. Just throwing that out there.

Which gives a % chance of a spell failing outright. I'd say that's pretty handy.

[Magikeeper]

I still love this class, by the way, and desperately want to try it out on a Thri-Kreen, but that's unrelated to the nature of this post. :smalltongue:

You too, huh?

On Mage Puncher I took that amount from the current DWP ability. No reason it couldn't be 10, although I'm not sure what the power level of the SBAs should be.

I do think Man of the Land is a bit on the weak side, so

Man of the Land: The brawler gains scent, a +2 natural armor bonus, and his speed increases by 10ft. The natural armor bonus stacks with similar bonuses and increases by 1 for every three class levels (rounded down). Also, the brawler can ignore the racial immunities of plants, vermin, and magical beasts when making intimidate checks. He receives a -4 penalty if the creature would normally be immune to the attempt.

So, +3 AC at level 5, +4 at level 6, +5 at level 9, +6 at level 12, and after that AC doesn't matter. It probably doesn't matter at level 12, really. Might be worth taking early, not so much as one of the later abilities.



Also, more suggestions:

Fists you can Believe In: The brawler’s unarmed strikes count as one of the following per 5 levels: [Lawful, Chaotic, Good, or Evil] for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction. Furthermore, any enemy whose damage reduction can be overcome by the brawler receives a -10 penalty on intimidate checks against the brawler or any of the brawler’s allies. Finally, the brawler recieves a +X bonus on all saving throws where X is equal to the brawler’s level divided by 4 (rounded down).


Here is one more ability. I’m not sure I like this one, but we have so many abilities that work great with this archtype:

Drunken Might: The brawler can consume alcohol to gain great power instead of great unconsciousness. The brawler can enter a transcendent state while drunk. This state is similar to a barbarian’s rage, except that the brawler gains the effect for as long as he is drunk, it gives him a +4 bonus on intimidate checks, and that it lasts for 3 rounds + # of pints of alcohol drunk since the brawler entered the state. Furthermore, while in the transcendent state the brawler can attempt to block one melee attack per pint by rolling an opposed attack roll against his opponent. If he succeeds, his opponent is hit by the attack instead. The brawler cannot be knocked unconscious by alcohol, does not have hangovers, and has the supernatural ability to get drunk from any alcoholic drink that could get a small child drunk even if the brawler is incapable of normally drinking things. Finally, the brawler heals 1hp/level per pint of alcohol drunk (which takes a move action to drink, as do pints drunk for other reasons).
^ Way too wordy.


Here are some more normal brawler abilities:

The following ignore immunities as they are based on fear effects. So if you
buff fear effects, you can use these too:

Terrifying Visage: Any opponent demoralized or otherwise intimidated by the brawler is also shaken for the same duration. This ability ignores immunities.

Heart Stopping Terror Any shakened, frightened, or panicked foe damaged by the brawler must make a will save (DC 10 + 1/2 brawler's level + Str) or be stunned for one round. A foe that was stunned is no longer shakened, frightened, or panicked when the stunning ends. This ability ignores immunities.

---------------------------


Boisterous Nature needs descriptive text in the front post btw.
Also, do Constant Sway + Big Stepper + Close and Personal form an infinite combo if you have 2+ enemies next to each other (Sway during the AoO to gain another AoO), or does CaP count against your AoOs for the round (at which point it isn’t an infinite combo until epic)? Or am I wrong?

[Lix Lorn]

Hiya.
I have a couple of ideas:
A standard ability-
Neck Snap
Increase your threat range by one. This stacks with Improved Critical and similar effects.

A Supernatural ability-
Steel Fists
All threats you make are automatically confirmed.

I like this class. :3

[Averagedog]

After building a character using this class, I can safely say that the brawler really relies on anyone with healing magic. The Brawler defensive prospects are very low, except for his d12 hit die of course :P. The brawler ability versus fear is quite nice, but it doesn't help against other will save effects, which will be key to eliminating or simply neutralizing the Brawler. If defensive abilities were made for the Brawler, it will detract greatly from his damage output due to having many choices with few slots to put them in.

Otherwise, I currently see it as a fairly balanced glass cannon.

[Lix Lorn]

By the way,
I want to quote something Kuma Kode said.

I've actually been looking for a decent unarmed class that isn't based around some kind of eastern lore. It seems Wizards of the Coast believe the Japanese invented the punch.
Extended signature.

[BRC]

Alright, time for some full on comment responding
Concerning Magikeeper's "Man of the" abilities. I don't know, they just don't seem to fit for some reason, maybe it's the names, maybe it's how they're multi-faceted while all the other abilities mainly just do one thing. I'll chew on them, but I dunno.
Neck Snap seems like it should increase the multiplier, not the range.
Averagedog: Did you actually play it, or just build it? Can we see the build you used? Also, how reliant are we talking. Is this "Strap a gnome cleric to your back or else you're dead meat" or "Buy the party healer a wand of CLW and a box of chocolates".

How would people feel about giving them Evasion as a class feature (As opposed to a Brawler ability), improving their saving throws, or maybe let them use Potions as a Swift action?

I think we should establish that either Constant Sway can't be used on an AoE, or that Close and Personal counts as an attack of opportunity.

[Lix Lorn]

Neck Snap seems like it should increase the multiplier, not the range.
Averagedog: Did you actually play it, or just build it? Can we see the build you used? Also, how reliant are we talking. Is this "Strap a gnome cleric to your back or else you're dead meat" or "Buy the party healer a wand of CLW and a box of chocolates".

You may be right. I couldn't think of a better name for a threat increaser...
Also... Can I sig part of that? XD

[BRC]

You may be right. I couldn't think of a better name for a threat increaser...
Also... Can I sig part of that? XD
Go right ahead.

I have been informed that, as worded, Massive Brute could be interpreted as doing a good deal more than I intended it to, but that if I fix it, the Brawler will need more defensive stuff, preferably defensive stuff that dosn't eat up Brawler abilities.
Also, I think I'm definetally going to give them Evasion.
Here's one idea I had, dunno how well it would work.
Flesh Wound: At Sixth Level, a brawler learns to shrug off trivial wounds. Any attack that fails to deal more damage than (Brawlers Hit Die+Brawler's CON modifier) has no effect. So against a 6th level brawler with 16 con, an attack that deals 10 damage would act as normal, while one that deals 9 damage would be negated.

[Lix Lorn]

I think that should be Class Level rather than hit dice.
And thanks.

[Averagedog]

wow, while flesh wound is, by no doubt, pretty original. It is very overpowered. It essentially negates damage from physical ranged attacks and mooks. While it is by no doubt epic, it's potential in "real" situations does nothing against bigger badder enemies and completely negates a horde of mooks.

Let's use the barbarian as an example: The barbarian get's DR 5 by level 19 and has access to feats that can increase the DR (especially if he has 20 con, see the monster manual feats for details). DR 5 doesn't negate all damage and only can against minor scratches or glancing wounds (though larger creatures generally do more than glancing blows, or if they are they really really hurt). Fleshwound on the other hand is currently so strong for reasons I have already stated :P.

so basically, you are giving the brawler (Brawlers Hit Die+Brawler's CON modifier - 1) DR

[Lix Lorn]

No, cause if you have DR 9 and get hit for 10 damage, you take one. If you have Flesh Wound, you take ten.

[BRC]

wow, while flesh wound is, by no doubt, pretty original. It is very overpowered. It essentially negates damage from physical ranged attacks and mooks. While it is by no doubt epic, it's potential in "real" situations does nothing against bigger badder enemies and completely negates a horde of mooks.

Let's use the barbarian as an example: The barbarian get's DR 5 by level 19 and has access to feats that can increase the DR (especially if he has 20 con, see the monster manual feats for details). DR 5 doesn't negate all damage and only can against minor scratches or glancing wounds (though larger creatures generally do more than glancing blows, or if they are they really really hurt). Fleshwound on the other hand is currently so strong for reasons I have already stated :P.

so basically, you are giving the brawler (Brawlers Hit Die+Brawler's CON modifier - 1) DR
Flesh Wound was my Crazy Idea to throw out there before I move on to more sensible stuff, by which I mean one of two things.

Of course, mind you, DnD Already has Mooks as fairly useless, this just makes them useless in a different way.
Of course, it's also worthless against heavier hitters.
1) Give the brawler ways to boost their AC
or
2) Give the brawler more hit points.

[Averagedog]

probably more AC or save related abilities would be more balancing. If we keep giving the brawler more HP it will make some caster spells fairly trivial :P

[BRC]

probably more AC or save related abilities would be more balancing. If we keep giving the brawler more HP it will make some caster spells fairly trivial :P
Give them Evasion and/or Good reflex saves? That will still leave them open to non-fear based Will save stuff, but that could be said of lots of classes (Fighters, Barbs, Rogues, Rangers)

[Averagedog]

hmmmm maybe it is better to think of flavor on this one.

How about something like "mad foam rager" where he can simply ignore the spell effects (or maybe for the rager, spell effects and damage that would take him below 1) until the next round? maybe based on a per encounter basis?

Or perhaps something like the Crusader's damage pool where the damage is placed temporarily onto the side before it is applied the next round which gives the brawler a temporary boost to dealing damage with his attacks? (This could replace that ability that increases the attack and damage of the brawler based on what level he is)

[Magikeeper]

On the SBA:

Well, the brawler only gets 4 supernatural abilities and some of the stuff they really want (Magic attacks, etc.) are also very boring. Most SBAs I created had 3 parts:
> A scaling defensive ability.
> A social ability.
> Something else that makes the brawler better at offense.

Some of them had 4 bonuses, some had fewer, many of the bonuses are things I wouldn’t want to waste a brawler ability on (Like magic hands) combined with flavorfully similar things. Basically I treated them kinda like tactical feats, only mixed with static bonuses. I think the SBA should be a bigger deal than any one BA. Sort of a way to customize the ‘base’ of your Brawler.

On Names, I just liked the idea of the intimidate cycle (although the last two didn’t fit the pattern..) Anyway, I don’t know what kind of names you like but the Man of.. cycle is pretty general. For example, Man of the land could have any wild-ish brawler type name.

On Defense:

Potions: Please no. Potions are really bad. I think I might have used 1 in my entire D&D history. Maybe two.


Eternal Mad Foam Rager would be quite fun. Combine it with the ability to ignore one delayed effect/attack per encounter?

Also fun would be the ability to automatically pass any save DC that is below the brawler’s modifier (As a high level ability anyway).

Hmmmm…. Maybe give the brawler the ability to make fort saves to half damage dealt to him? DC = Damage dealt. Specifically note that the ability does not work with mettle or similar effects.


-------------------
Swaying an AoO could be really fun in some situations.... well, I'd note that you can't use CS while already in the middle of a movement. That should solve all kinds of problems.

[Averagedog]

seriously? are you kidding me? Potions are like cheap spells in dnd 3.5... once a wizard or a cleric runs out of spell slots, when do you then heal your dying allies? seriously. I think it's cool that the ability the Brawler has to maximize healing is AWESOME. Cure mod potions become instant 37 HP infusions.

Mad foam isn't eternal. I think it should basically be the same as the feat except be able to be used once per encounter rather than once per day.

[Magikeeper]

seriously? are you kidding me? Potions are like cheap spells in dnd 3.5... once a wizard or a cleric runs out of spell slots, when do you then heal your dying allies? seriously. I think it's cool that the ability the Brawler has to maximize healing is AWESOME. Cure mod potions become instant 37 HP infusions.

Mad foam isn't eternal. I think it should basically be the same as the feat except be able to be used once per encounter rather than once per day.

Potions are not an efficient use of gold. Get a wand, a belt of healing, anything. Hire/recruit an NPC cleric even. Use weird combos for infinite out of combat healing if you must. If you are actually using a ton of potions you would be better off using spell-items that prevent you from taking the damage in the first place. The brawler max-heal ability wouldn't be awesome if it only worked for potions.

As for mad foam, yeah, an eternal version would be like always winning initiative. I still like it, but I think you are right at lower levels. Maybe have it start out as 1/encounter at level... 6? with an extra use at levels 10, 14, and 18 with the restriction that you can't delay an effect that has already been delayed. Then we could have an actual capstone (Eternal Mad Foam + 1/encounter "effect never happens") at level 20. One that matters at epic levels. Maybe 6/11/14/17 would be a better set up if there is a capstone, since having a pattern wouldn't matter. I think this would be in flavor for the brawler.

[BRC]

How about this
Give them a Good reflex save

New ability: Brawler's Reflexes. The Brawler's particular brand of fighting leads to becoming very good at avoiding blows. A Brawler gains an additional +1 dodge bonus at 2nd level, with an additional +1 bonus every 3 levels after that.

[Averagedog]

that sounds very fair. Evasion doesn't seem to fit Brawlers :P They aren't acrobats after all. With this addition, their AC will be almost at baseline for suggested non casting combatant AC by level. (Formula goes 13 + character level) At earlier levels, they should be at or a bit over this, but later on they will spend a normal amount of resources to stay at the AC suggested AC level. Depending on your dexterity/stats, they will most likely start falling under around level 11-13, but because of their hit points and the types of monsters that most PC's fight around those levels and beyond, AC becomes less and less relevant unless if you are a squishy assassin type combatant like a rogue.

Fair trade indeed.

What do you feel about the mad foam effect suggestions?

[BRC]

that sounds very fair. Evasion doesn't seem to fit Brawlers :P They aren't acrobats after all. With this addition, their AC will be almost at baseline for suggested non casting combatant AC by level. (Formula goes 13 + character level) At earlier levels, they should be at or a bit over this, but later on they will spend a normal amount of resources to stay at the AC suggested AC level. Depending on your dexterity/stats, they will most likely start falling under around level 11-13, but because of their hit points and the types of monsters that most PC's fight around those levels and beyond, AC becomes less and less relevant unless if you are a squishy assassin type combatant like a rogue.

Fair trade indeed.

What do you feel about the mad foam effect suggestions?
Hrmm, I guess. I'm trying to think of a point to slip that in, maybe replace my current Adrenaline Rush with a Mad Foam once per day per Con mod.

[Averagedog]

yes and yes :P it sounds far more useful and it costs the person a brawler ability slot. very worthwhile in my opinion.

edit:

Can the brawler select Brawler abilities (not supernatural ones) for his feats as well?

[BRC]

yes and yes :P it sounds far more useful and it costs the person a brawler ability slot. very worthwhile in my opinion.

edit:

Can the brawler select Brawler abilities (not supernatural ones) for his feats as well?
I havn't added it to the first post, but yes, though you need at least 2 brawler abilities already and to take the feat.

[Averagedog]

now that survivability seems pretty good, let's look at the Brawler's intimidation mechanics.
At level 9 subtle pump essentially allows the brawler to intimidate his foes as a free action and double the penalties if they fail.

Speak softly, at level two changes intimidate checks to strength checks. What about Champion, the Brawlers essential capstone? why is it based off of Charisma if his other intimidation ability is based off of strength?

[BRC]

now that survivability seems pretty good, let's look at the Brawler's intimidation mechanics.
At level 9 subtle pump essentially allows the brawler to intimidate his foes as a free action and double the penalties if they fail.

Speak softly, at level two changes intimidate checks to strength checks. What about Champion, the Brawlers essential capstone? why is it based off of Charisma if his other intimidation ability is based off of strength?
Because I stole it pretty much wholesale from Frightful Presence. I could make it Str based.

[Cute_Riolu]

I'd say, yeah, that the dodge bonus thing is a good ability... but it feels way too much like an ability tax. What brawler WOULDN'T take it?

[Averagedog]

uh no, the reflex save and the dodge bonus are class abilities...

[BRC]

uh no, the reflex save and the dodge bonus are class abilities...
Yeah, this.
I'm trying to avoid Ability Tax BA's. I don't mind having good BA's that lots of people will take, but I don't want there to be any brawler abilities that must be taken in order for the class to function.

[Cute_Riolu]

Oh, sorry, my mistake. I misread it. :P

[Averagedog]

so, are those changes going to be added to the original post? Or has the weekend actually killed the development of this class?

[BRC]

so, are those changes going to be added to the original post? Or has the weekend actually killed the development of this class?

They will, I've just been busy. I'll get around to it.

[Lyndworm]

I just got the go-ahead to playtest the Brawler. Are there any Brawler abilities in specific that you'd like to see tested? If not, I'll probably just try to break it and see what happens.

[Lyndworm]

I noticed that none of the Brawler's Brawler Abilities can be used while wearing Medium or Heavy armor. I propose the change that the majority of the Brawler Abilities can be used while wearing Medium or Heavy armor, but a few still cannot be. These would be the abilities based on agility, such as Big Stepper, Constant Sway, Corkscrew Charge, Float like a Butterfly, Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Uncanny Dodge.

I also propose two new Brawler Abilities.
I'm the Juggernaut...!:
The Brawler gains proficiency with Medium and Heavy Armor.

Iron Onslaught:
The Brawler gains proficiency with Armor Spikes and Armor Razors. Additionally, the base damage for these weapons is equal to the base damage for the Brawler's Unarmed Strike, and attacks made with Gauntlets (and Spiked Gauntlets) are treated as Unarmed Strikes for all effects.

[Lyndworm]

The classes are surprisingly similar, but I feel that this one is superior in multiple ways. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.

[BRC]

The classes are surprisingly similar, but I feel that this one is superior in multiple ways. Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
?

Anyway, in response, I've jumped through alot of hoops trying to keep the Brawler as a front-line fighter in light armor. This is largely for the purpose of the Aesthetic of the Brawler. My mental image of this class has always been of a guy in a barfight, or of somebody like Marv from Sin City. The idea of wearing heavy armor just didn't work with that.
Of course, the Monk class also sucked because WoTC tried too hard to stick to the Aesthetic of a semi-mystic kung-fu guy, I don't want to make the same mistake, letting the class suffer in the name of a mental image.

So yeah, to the Peanut Gallery out there, do you think the class needs heavier armor?

[Lix Lorn]

It doesn't NEED it, but the option would be nice.

[Lyndworm]

?
That was in response to someone (I don't remember who) posting a link to another class called Brawler. It had a few similarities such as a customizable fighting style and something else that escapes me at the moment, but I still feel that your class is superior.


Anyway, in response, I've jumped through alot of hoops trying to keep the Brawler as a front-line fighter in light armor. This is largely for the purpose of the Aesthetic of the Brawler. My mental image of this class has always been of a guy in a barfight, or of somebody like Marv from Sin City. The idea of wearing heavy armor just didn't work with that.
I see the Brawler as an unarmed combatant, to be honest. That could be Marv (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marv_%28Sin_City%29), that could be Wilson Fisk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingpin_%28comics%29), that could be Oyama Masutatsu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%8Cyama_Masutatsu), it could even be Gotz von Berlichingen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6tz_von_Berlichingen). I think that there's a lot of variety there.


Of course, the Monk class also sucked because WoTC tried too hard to stick to the Aesthetic of a semi-mystic kung-fu guy, I don't want to make the same mistake, letting the class suffer in the name of a mental image.
I don't think that you run the risk of falling into the Monk's shoes. For one thing, the Brawler has a clearly defined role of Heavy Hitter. This can be modified depending on the abilities chosen, (for example, you can create a battlefield control build through Trips and Intimidate usage, or a charging monster, or even a mobile acrobat).

With the addition of the I'm the Juggernaut...! ability, one of the builds that you can make is the Tank, standing in front of the other guy and absorbing as much damage as you dish out. Since this requires you to spend a Brawler ability to get, I think it's pretty balanced. I've been doing some Brawler playtesting, and I don't think that this will break anything.


So yeah, to the Peanut Gallery out there, do you think the class needs heavier armor?
I don't think that the Brawler really needs anything at this point. The addition of heavier armors adds a little more versatility in concept if absolutely nothing else.

I think that Easy Patient might be too good, though. It's not overpowered, it's just significantly more useful than the other Supernatural Brawler Abilities. Unless its being played in a very specific campaign setting, Easy Patient is what every single Brawler will take at 5th level, which means it's too good.

Maybe we could give the others a boost of some sort?

Here are some more Brawler Abilities that I just imagined, along with the "updated" Supernatural Abilities:
Sting Like a Bee:
Prerequisites: Float Like a Butterfly
Benefit: The Brawler gains a +1 bonus on attack rolls and a +2 bonus on damage rolls for every 5ft moved before attacking. These bonuses only apply to the first attack in a round, unless the Brawler has some way to move between attacks (such as from the Constant Sway Brawler Ability).
Special: This Brawler Ability only functions as long as the Brawler is not wearing Medium or Heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.

Swift Pounce:
Prerequisites: Big Stepper
Benefit: The Brawler may subtract a number from his attack rolls this round up to his Base Attack Bonus. Should he choose to do so, can move a number of squares equal to the amount subtracted as a Swift action. The maximum distance the Brawler may move in this way is equal to his land speed. If the Brawler ends this movement with an attack, at counts as a charge so long as the last 10ft were in a straight line towards the target.
Special: This Brawler Ability only functions as long as the Brawler is not wearing Medium or Heavy armor, and is not carrying a medium or heavy load.

Flesh Over Steel:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Adamantine for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Adamantine.

Devil Puncher:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Cold Iron for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Silver.

Werewolf Boxer:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Silver for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Cold Iron.

Magic Hands:
Benefit: A Brawler’s unarmed strikes are treated as Magic for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Magic & (Bludgeoning, Slashing, or Piercing).

Ghost Buster:
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed Strikes are treated as being Ghost Touch for the purpose of hitting Incorporeal targets. Additionally, the Brawler may grapple Incorporeal targets.

Fist for Good:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Hand of Evil ability.Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Good aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Evil. The Brawler must be of non-Evil alignment to take this ability.

Hand of Evil:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Fist for Good ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Evil aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Good. The Brawler must be of non-Good alignment to take this ability.

Long Arm of the Law:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Unreasonable Assault ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Lawfully aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Chaotic. The Brawler must be of non-Chaotic alignment to take this ability.

Unreasonable Assault:
Prerequisites: Must not have the Long Arm of the Law ability.
Benefit: The Brawler's unarmed strikes are treated as being Chaotically aligned for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. Additionally, the Brawler gains DR5/Lawful. The Brawler must be of non-Lawful alignment to take this ability.

[BRC]

Hrmm, what I might do is remove the Armor Limitation from all but a few Brawler Abilities, and then let Brawlers freely spend extra feats on/ Multiclass for Armor Proficiency.

Also, you said you playtested it, how did that work out?

[Lyndworm]

Fairly well. The game's still running, actually, but there's not been as much combat as one would hope for in a playtest. If anything noteworthy arises, I'll most certainly post it here.

I think that removing the armor limitation would be very cool. I suggested having the Brawler Ability to grant proficiency only because I think that that makes it feel like a legitimate Brawler build, whereas just having the capability makes it sound more like a real effort. It's more of a personal feeling than a logical thought.

[Lyndworm]

Just a bump.

[imp_fireball]

You should give an advantage to the brawler for wielding gauntlets. That would be their signature weapon, aside from unarmed.

[Nanoblack]

Or make a list of magical gauntlets that would go well with the class... Utterdeath Gauntlet, Gauntlet of Rust, Dwarvenforge(I think) Gauntlet, ect...

Maybe make some new ones.

[Tanuki Tales]

I think maybe Adrenaline Rush should be changed to the Fast Healing that was suggested since 2 feats (Endurance and Diehard) completely outclass the ability.

[Lyndworm]

Speaking of which, a Brawler ability that grants Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats seems flavorful. It's definitely not overpowering.

[Tanuki Tales]

Speaking of which, a Brawler ability that grants Endurance and Diehard as bonus feats seems flavorful. It's definitely not overpowering.

That would be nice too.

A note about Easy Patient; why not split it into a lesser and greater version. The greater version being how it is now and the lesser maybe something like their Con mod added to the amount the spell heals?

[Lyndworm]

Because it's already so powerful that I can't see anyone not taking it. Making a greater version would have the same problem again. Every Brawler (excepting very specific builds) would have those two abilities. Seeing as how you only get four Supernatural Brawler Abilities over your entire life, it seems a little absurd to remove two options.

[Tanuki Tales]

Because it's already so powerful that I can't see anyone not taking it. Making a greater version would have the same problem again. Every Brawler (excepting very specific builds) would have those two abilities. Seeing as how you only get four Supernatural Brawler Abilities over your entire life, it seems a little absurd to remove two options.

The greater version would be as written now, with the lesser being only a static bonus to healing spells. This would eat up 2 of their limited SBAs but it'd balance it out more. Otherwise, just weaken the ability overall.

[Lyndworm]

I probably could have been clearer, so I blame myself for the misunderstanding.

I feel that the ability is good enough that even splitting it into two abilities won't help much. The vast majority of Brawlers are going to take Easy Patient and Really Easy Patient as their 5th and 10th level abilities.

I've expressed concern for this before, but it's worth noting again; Easy patient is such a good ability that it might be worth adding as a Class ability, independent of the Brawler abilities. Perhaps have it scale, as you suggest, Bendraesar. These would be great supplemental abilities at 5 and 10th levels, for example.

[Tanuki Tales]

I probably could have been clearer, so I blame myself for the misunderstanding.

I feel that the ability is good enough that even splitting it into two abilities won't help much. The vast majority of Brawlers are going to take Easy Patient and Really Easy Patient as their 5th and 10th level abilities.

I've expressed concern for this before, but it's worth noting again; Easy patient is such a good ability that it might be worth adding as a Class ability, independent of the Brawler abilities. Perhaps have it scale, as you suggest, Bendraesar. These would be great supplemental abilities at 5 and 10th levels, for example.

I think that sounds like a good idea, but I'm not an experienced homebrewer so I'd leave it up the others in the audience to give their thoughts on such a move.

[Bulwer]

It's not been a month and a half, so I feel fine bumping this.

I'm looking for a fistfighting class, and this one looks like one of the nice ones, but maybe could do with a bit more polish. How about those Intimidation mechanics?

[BRC]

Hey their Brawler Fans!
Tommorow my group is having a big 12-hour marathon type thing, and I'm hoping to test drive the Brawler myself!
So yeah, Reports will come in from that!

Also, apparently I owe you guys some intimidation mechanics... or something like that.

[Cardea]

There doesn't seem to be much love for Haymaker or Brutish Tactics, aside from Ringing Ears and Blood Beater on the first page. Hrm.

[Samm]

BRC, I'm planning on posting a fix of the fighter.

To be honest, I've borrowed plenty of things from this Brawler; the idea of customisable abilities, and some of the abilities themselves. I just want to make sure you're okay with it. I'm going to credit you with these ideas and link to this thread.

So, onto the big question: are you going to let me post my fighter fix that borrows heavily from your class, and if so, how should I credit you for it?

[BRC]

BRC, I'm planning on posting a fix of the fighter.

To be honest, I've borrowed plenty of things from this Brawler; the idea of customisable abilities, and some of the abilities themselves. I just want to make sure you're okay with it. I'm going to credit you with these ideas and link to this thread.

So, onto the big question: are you going to let me post my fighter fix that borrows heavily from your class, and if so, how should I credit you for it?
Just throw in a link and a mention.


Also, thinking about Intimidation mechanics, I think letting a Brawler intimidate as a Swift action at second level would work nicely. Also, maybe some brawler abilities that benefit from fighting shaken opponents.

Brutal Bully: The Brawler gains +2 to attack and damage against shaken opponents.
Don't mess with the Bull: Shaken opponents suffer a -2 penalty to attack and damage against the Brawler.

[Samm]

Just throw in a link and a mention.

Brilliant. Thanks. It's hopefully going to go up quite soon.

[Lizard Lord]

I know someone else brought this up, but it doesn't seem like you noticed it. There are brawler abilities that Cunning Tactics, but that doesn't seem to be an ability itself. Did you mean Clever Tactics?

[Jyokage]

Absolutely awesome class BRC and Co. This homebrew just made my day, and my future gaming prospects, much brighter.

[Dust]

I am not able, with this base class, to put a hydra in a headlock and drag it around. This must be remedied.

[BRC]

I know someone else brought this up, but it doesn't seem like you noticed it. There are brawler abilities that Cunning Tactics, but that doesn't seem to be an ability itself. Did you mean Clever Tactics?
I have finally gotten around to fixing this.

Absolutely awesome class BRC and Co. This homebrew just made my day, and my future gaming prospects, much brighter.
Thanks!

I am not able, with this base class, to put a hydra in a headlock and drag it around. This must be remedied.
*GASP*
How did I miss this!
New Brawler Ability:
Full Nelson: Requires Brutish Tactics. If a Brawler successfully Pins an opponent they gain a +4 Bonus on all Opposed grapple checks against that opponent.
Leap and Grab: A Brawler may make a Grapple check against a flat footed opponent. If this check is successful, the opponent is automatically Pinned.

[Kilbourne]

You mentioned you played this and tested it; I'm interested in introducing this class to my own campaigns, how did the playtesting go?

[true_shinken]

I actually like the mechanics but dislike the fluff. 'I just punch people. I'm better with my fists than a fighter is with his weapons and I'm better than a monk and monking.'
It's not a problem of the class, it's how it integrates with the core classes per se. Without some degree of fluff (like ToB's nine swords) it seems kinds forced. If anyone can simply punch and be so effective, while do they use weapons?

[BRC]

You mentioned you played this and tested it; I'm interested in introducing this class to my own campaigns, how did the playtesting go?
I thought I'd have a chance. My group was having a marathon DnD session, which last time was making new characters. As it turned out, we were just continuing our existing campaign.

I actually like the mechanics but dislike the fluff. 'I just punch people. I'm better with my fists than a fighter is with his weapons and I'm better than a monk and monking.'
It's not a problem of the class, it's how it integrates with the core classes per se. Without some degree of fluff (like ToB's nine swords) it seems kinds forced. If anyone can simply punch and be so effective, while do they use weapons?
It's better than a Monk at Monking because Monks suck.
As for the fluff, the same argument could be said about any class. If all it took for a character to gain PC levels was an effort of will, then there would be no commoners. I'm of the belief that, in any DnD Campaign, characters with class levels were special in some way. Not everybody who prays in a temple becomes a Cleric, not everybody who learns to use a sword becomes a Fighter, not everybody who gets angry is a Barbarian. Some base classes have what might be considered "assumed pre-requisites". For example, Sorcerers get their powers from their bloodlines. Any character who wants to take a level in Sorcerer is assumed to have such a bloodline. I've yet to hear about a DM who, when a player says "I want to play a sorcerer" rolls a dice then responds "nope, I just rolled. Your character does not have a magical bloodline, so no sorcerer levels for you!". In a way, something similar happens with every character.
If it helps, imagine that a Brawler has something similar, only instead of their great great great greatx10 grandfather being a dragon, they've just got a combination of physical prowess, instinct, ability, and just a little bit of insanity that lets them punch a dragon in the face. 99 out of a hundred people who try to take on an armored soldier with their bare hands end up dieing horribly. Any character that wants to take brawler levels is assumed to be #100.

[Kilbourne]

I have a thought to allowing this class the feature of Flurry of Blows, like a monk... any thought to that? It would like take out some of the class features such as Follow Through, but it could also be that those could only be used when not flurrying... any thoughts?