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Zovc
2010-04-19, 03:39 PM
I'm a level 1 Warblade//Beguiler. If I want to avoid arcane spell failure (and deal as much damage as possible), I want to use a two-handed weapon.

It was recommended I use a reach weapon, but for some reason I have an aversion to that. Feel free to try to convince me I should use a reach weapon.

Yorrin
2010-04-19, 03:48 PM
Reach weapons are nice if you plan to take advantage of them. But if you won't be using it there's no reason to fight your natural gameplay style.

I'm personally a fan of weapons with a high crit range, so Falchion would be at the top of my non-reach 2hander list.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-19, 03:51 PM
Reach weapons are nice if you plan to take advantage of them. But if you won't be using it there's no reason to fight your natural gameplay style.

I'm personally a fan of weapons with a high crit range, so Falchion would be at the top of my non-reach 2hander list.

It's such a shame they nerfed the Talenta Sharrash. That would have solved the OP's problems perfectly.

Greatsword, Falchion, and Scythe are all decent weapons until you get into Exotic ones. Then it's either the Minotaur Greathammer (if it uses the improved threat range and keeps the *4) or the Spiked Chain.

Grumman
2010-04-19, 03:51 PM
It was recommended I use a reach weapon, but for some reason I have an aversion to that. Feel free to try to convince me I should use a reach weapon.
It effectively doubles your number of attacks against mooks. On your turn, you charge and gib someone, on their turn, the survivors charge... and get gibbed as they approach.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 04:02 PM
It's such a shame they nerfed the Talenta Sharrash. That would have solved the OP's problems perfectly.

Greatsword, Falchion, and Scythe are all decent weapons until you get into Exotic ones. Then it's either the Minotaur Greathammer (if it uses the improved threat range and keeps the *4) or the Spiked Chain.

Guisarme is also a fine weapon, and indeed, tends to be my default choice on level 1; it doubles as a 10' pole and has the Trip-option which is surprisingly useful even without the associated feats. And it's cheap, which matters a great deal on level 1, while Greatsword and Falchion cost fortunes.

nooblade
2010-04-19, 04:04 PM
It effectively doubles your number of attacks against mooks. On your turn, you charge and gib someone, on their turn, the survivors charge... and get gibbed as they approach.

For a Spiked Chain, I agree, but for 10-ft reach weapons, doesn't the 5-foot step thing apply?

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-19, 04:07 PM
Reach weapons open up one of two possible melee builds for you. If you're not going to use one, you're going to be making a damage build. Considering you're going Warblade//Beguiler, I have absolutely no idea what your build concept is, but I'm betting you're going Intelligence-focused, using the Beguiler to cover your bases for diplomancy and battlefield control, then forcing your opponents into uncomfortable places where you can bring your (almost) unparalleled melee skill down on them.

You could easily go damage: Iron Heart and Stone Dragon both have phenomenal strikes. But you already have battlefield control options. That's the thing that really resonates with me. You can drop a Solid Fog or something, wait for your foes to scrabble out of it, then chop them down as they work to get reorganized. That's where reach would help.

I dunno. What is your concept for how this character fights? If you know that, your weapon of choice is pretty easy to pick.

Zovc
2010-04-19, 04:10 PM
I guess being able to 5-foot step does kind of make the whole "I can't attack you if you're too close!" thing kind of irrelevant.

Indeed, Greatswords and Falchions are ridiculously expensive.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-19, 04:16 PM
I guess being able to 5-foot step does kind of make the whole "I can't attack you if you're too close!" thing kind of irrelevant.

Indeed, Greatswords and Falchions are ridiculously expensive.

More to the point, them getting inside your reach requires them to suffer an attack at your hands (and if you're using a spear, you can deal twice damage; if a guisarme, you can trip them and stop their movement; etc.), which gives you the tactical initiative. You will always get to hurt them before they get to hurt you, if you make your build about reach and battlefield control.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 04:16 PM
For a Spiked Chain, I agree, but for 10-ft reach weapons, doesn't the 5-foot step thing apply?

This is where placement comes into play. You place yourself so that only the guy you killed is capable of 5' stepping in (as possible; good formations of course counter this to a degree - a lot of tactics falls here). This guarantees alpha strike and with Combat Reflexes, can in larger combats multiply your number of attacks.

It also enables you to make yourself very hard to bypass due to the 25'/25' square you take out of the map which means you're a huge obstacle to pass, and you can Trip if you just need someone to stop moving (they'll provoke an AoO if you succeed anyways so you don't really "give up" an attack for it; they'll either rise (AoO), crawl (AoO) or just do nothing (and thus be effectively dead) with -4 to AC and to hit to boot).


Reach weapons rule because of combat turns and the fact that you can maintain distance with 5' steps or Tumble as long as you avoid corners (again, a tactical concern) and gain attacks off all guys but the one you're engaging (and if tripped, even that one) makes reach weapons excellent.

Because of the way the combat system works, someone getting up to your skin is very rarely a problem (unlike in real life; someone getting next to you when your weapon is a reach weapon means huge trouble as it's unwieldy and you have to wield it midhaft to generate any respectable defense) and you need reach to be able to stop people from walking past you (in real life, you could just interpose yourself with opponent, but that doesn't work in D&D; it'd be nice if you could use Move Action to "follow target" out-of-turn when he moves up to your movement - would make 5' reach less of a problem).

Keld Denar
2010-04-19, 04:19 PM
At low levels where you dont' anticipate being enlarged often, a 2handed reach weapon works well. As said, often times it doubles your attacks per round. A Glaive or Guisarme is a perfectly suitable weapon. Heck, even a Long Spear would be acceptable. If or when you start getting enlarged, the 10' gap that you can't swing into is then too great a liability. At that point, switch over to either a Spiked Chain (to close that gap) or switch to a 2hander like a Falcheon or Greatsword. Enlarged, a Falcheon does 2d6, with a 18-20 crit range while a Greatsword is 3d6 with a 19-20 crit range. Either would be decent.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 04:39 PM
Man, I so want to write out some homebrew for a few new movement actions now to fix combat movement so you don't need reach to protect others, and switching to a non-reach weapon is sensible. And switch around the old ones.

Something like:
- Remove 5' steps as they exist right now.
- Full attacks become standard action.
- All non-movement move actions become swift actions.
- Defensive casting doesn't exist. Tumble rules re-friggin'-written (against DC X where X is some function of the threatening character's ability and a constant).

Then:
- As a part of a full attack action (defined as normal, but now otherwise identical to standard action attack except for this), you may take a single step as long as natural reach for a normal bipedal creature of your size [to make it sensible; 5' is much more for a Human than the Tarrasque; at the same time, letting Inhuman Reach let you take 10' steps is just dumb] towards the opponent you are attacking. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
- Charge is identical, except you may take a full attack after charge. Any bonuses applying to charge attack only apply to your first primary attack afterwards, however.
- As a move action, you may instead of moving, ready to react to an opponent's movement. You may interpose yourself between yourself and your opponent, preventing him from passing you [without Overrun], you may follow an opponent, be ready to try to stop any movement in a given area, or just mirror an opponent's movement [up to your movement speed].
- You may split your movement in any way you desire around your other actions. In effect, move action is taken in lieu of your other actions (as long as you don't take an action requiring standing still such as casting a spell with casting time longer than 1 round). You may also ready just a part of your movement after moving on your own round.

Basically an attempt to apply the "combat round" rules I tried to generate at some point into the normal combat turn of D&D, and specifically making move action happen during the other actions thus explaining why you may not normally take other actions as move actions. And an alpha version; just something that crossed my mind.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 04:41 PM
Btws, Eld, I found that a good Tumble fix is DC 15+the BAB of the dude you're passing. It scales, and still has an allowance for the fact that Wizards aren't gonna stop you real well, and Fighters are, cause they're trained. It's a really rough number, but it worked well the few times I used it.

Thrawn183
2010-04-19, 05:15 PM
It's not just about the enemy provoking AoO's, it's also about not provoking them yourself. Granted, you don't fight too many things with reach at level 1, but you'll start running into large sized creatures soon enough, and not taking a melee hit from a large sized bruiser can be exceedingly nice.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 05:28 PM
It's not just about the enemy provoking AoO's, it's also about not provoking them yourself. Granted, you don't fight too many things with reach at level 1, but you'll start running into large sized creatures soon enough, and not taking a melee hit from a large sized bruiser can be exceedingly nice.

That and covering area as I said. It's much harder to go around 25'/25' square than 15'/15' square and takes much more movement, usually so much so that it's plain impossible without giving up a turn's worth of actions.

Also, many more enemies you subdue fit within 25'/25' than 15'/15' so if there are enemies you don't want to let take action without trouble (spellcasters, ranged combatants), reach weapon again helps (though you need something to mitigate the issue of someone getting within the square and acting freely).

EDIT: @Arguskos: Glad to hear someone has practical experience on it. Mathematically it adds up just fine. Sounds like as good a rule as any.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 05:30 PM
I wonder if anyone's successfully used an awl pike in 3.5. The rules exist for one, and give it 15' reach, but I've never seen it mentioned ever. Probably cause it's exotic.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 05:33 PM
I wonder if anyone's successfully used an awl pike in 3.5. The rules exist for one, and give it 15' reach, but I've never seen it mentioned ever. Probably cause it's exotic.

Also, 'cause it's Dragon Magazine content which is...Dragon Magazine content. Slightly less (only slightly 'cause it's virtually inexistent in all early WoTC D&D products overall) quality control than your average WoTC sources.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 05:36 PM
Also, 'cause it's Dragon Magazine content which is...Dragon Magazine content. Slightly less (only slightly 'cause it's virtually inexistent in all early WoTC D&D products overall) quality control than your average WoTC sources.
The awl pike is also historically accurate and pretty much fine. It's got 15' reach, does damage, and that's about it. Why does no one ever use it? Just too little known or some such?

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 05:53 PM
The awl pike is also historically accurate and pretty much fine. It's got 15' reach, does damage, and that's about it. Why does no one ever use it? Just too little known or some such?

Dragon Magazine content as a whole is avoided 'cause so much of it is imbalanced, it's quite obscure and hard to gain access to (can't exactly order them in Europe), and it's not that special a weapon for exotic (though 15' reach is definitely solid, it does leave you with a huge blind spot). I'm quite certain, if it were a Core weapon, it'd see plenty of play.

arguskos
2010-04-19, 05:55 PM
Dragon Magazine content as a whole is avoided 'cause so much of it is imbalanced, it's quite obscure and hard to gain access to (can't exactly order them in Europe), and it's not that special a weapon for exotic (though 15' reach is definitely solid, it does leave you with a huge blind spot). I'm quite certain, if it were a Core weapon, it'd see plenty of play.
Fair enough. Also, uh, you can't get Dragon's in Europe? Won't they just mail you them? :smallconfused: Sure, it'd cost more, but I figured you could get them. Never thought about that.

Also, on the topic of Dragon being unbalanced, well sure, but WotC's record is as bad or worse. I've yet to see anything so unbelievably bad from Dragon that WotC didn't either reprint (Erudite) or was from the early days of 3.0 (Half-Minotaur).

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 06:00 PM
Fair enough. Also, uh, you can't get Dragon's in Europe? Won't they just mail you them? :smallconfused: Sure, it'd cost more, but I figured you could get them. Never thought about that.

Sure I could, but it's...not quite as simple. I actually own a few of the Dragon Magazines 'cause I got curious on some Crystalkeep items. But I had to use auctions and such to order them. There are...other methods of acquiring them as .pdfs but that's...yeah.


Also, on the topic of Dragon being unbalanced, well sure, but WotC's record is as bad or worse. I've yet to see anything so unbelievably bad from Dragon that WotC didn't either reprint (Erudite) or was from the early days of 3.0 (Half-Minotaur).

Aye, but it still has a bad rep and is quite obscure. There's quite a bit of good stuff in newer Dragons, and I use Dragon contents whenever allowed in games. Avoiding the more broken bits, of course (there's...some nasty feats and such there that are better off in the oblivion).

arguskos
2010-04-19, 06:50 PM
Sure I could, but it's...not quite as simple. I actually own a few of the Dragon Magazines 'cause I got curious on some Crystalkeep items. But I had to use auctions and such to order them. There are...other methods of acquiring them as .pdfs but that's...yeah.
Ah, well, fair enough then. I don't have the cash to personally purchase everything in hard copy, or I would, so I make do with my entirely legal PDF collection.


Aye, but it still has a bad rep and is quite obscure. There's quite a bit of good stuff in newer Dragons, and I use Dragon contents whenever allowed in games. Avoiding the more broken bits, of course (there's...some nasty feats and such there that are better off in the oblivion).
See, that's something I don't get. WHY does it have a bad rep? Just cause it's not WotC-official? Bah! WotC makes more stuff that's stupidly written all the time. Dragon is, on the average (cause everyone messes up sometimes), solid material that is often not good enough, rather than too good.

But, this is me being all "bleargh stop being prejudiced dammit bleargh". I'll stop derailing this thread now.

tl;dr of all my posts: Use an awl pike, it's awesome. :smallamused:

Zovc
2010-04-19, 07:29 PM
My feat was Skill Focus (Concentration), but I'm thinking either Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes will perform better. (I was taking the skill because it benefited my Diamond Mind maneuvers and helped me make checks for spellcasting purposes.)

I have a +3 Strength modifier and a +4 dexterity modifier.

...and a Gurisame seems to be the strongest option, because it can be used to trip.

Now, when I use Steel Wind, can I make two trips?

Edit: Also, arguskos, I doubt I can get any non-WotC content approved by the GM.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 07:32 PM
My feat was Skill Focus (Concentration), but I'm thinking either Improved Trip or Combat Reflexes will perform better. (I was taking the skill because it benefited my Diamond Mind maneuvers and helped me make checks for spellcasting purposes.)

I have a +3 Strength modifier and a +4 dexterity modifier.

...and a Gurisame seems to be the strongest option, because it can be used to trip.

Now, when I use Steel Wind, can I make two trips?

Generally, whenever you somehow attack a guy, you can make a trip attempt (or Disarm or Sunder or Grapple or any "attack action") instead.

Zovc
2010-04-19, 08:18 PM
I dunno. What is your concept for how this character fights? If you know that, your weapon of choice is pretty easy to pick.

Well, the character is, for the most part, absorbed in having the best of everything. She's part of a family that, in the past, has mingled in infernal affairs in order to gain status, wealth, power, etc. So, essentially, my excuse for having a 'hawt' character with 8 charisma is that her behavior is, for the most part, totally unattractive. She's always criticising everyone else's methods, opinions, and theories--unless something seems better, then she is probing (although she still manages to be condescending about it).

So, she studied with Warblades because she heard they were the best, she has roguelike/party face abilities because of her noble background, and magic just seemed like somthing she should learn if she wanted to have the best of everything.

In other words... however the Warblades fought was likely 'the best' way to fight, to her, and as such, that is what she learned.

(That is my cop-out for asking you to tell me how she fights. :P)

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-19, 11:22 PM
Now, when I use Steel Wind, can I make two trips?

No.

You can only use a special combat option like Tripping or Bull Rushing or Charging with a maneuver if the maneuver itself allows it. Otherwise you just make normal attacks. This is called out in the section just before the actual maneuvers.

The only known exception so far is Touch Attacks, but those aren't the same thing (they are not a special combat option, just a different way of attacking). Stormguard Warrior abuses this little loophole.

Eldariel
2010-04-19, 11:33 PM
No.

You can only use a special combat option like Tripping or Bull Rushing or Charging with a maneuver if the maneuver itself allows it. Otherwise you just make normal attacks. This is called out in the section just before the actual maneuvers.

The only known exception so far is Touch Attacks, but those aren't the same thing (they are not a special combat option, just a different way of attacking). Stormguard Warrior abuses this little loophole.

Wow, I had never caught that. Pretty strange considering how many times I've read the section. For the OP, it's page 43, second paragraph, 6-10.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-19, 11:50 PM
Wow, I had never caught that. Pretty strange considering how many times I've read the section. For the OP, it's page 43, second paragraph, 6-10.

Yeah, my little brother tried to use Steel Wind to initiate two Grapples. The DM got a headache until I read that paragraph off.

Zovc
2010-04-20, 12:16 AM
Yeah, my little brother tried to use Steel Wind to initiate two Grapples. The DM got a headache until I read that paragraph off.

What? Headache? I'd immediately call "rule of cool" as a DM. :smallcool:

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-20, 01:27 AM
What? Headache? I'd immediately call "rule of cool" as a DM. :smallcool:

Grappling with a Glaive.


Against two creatures outside your natural melee reach.


Both of which were LARGE SIZE.


I'm talking about a player who managed to **** up a Chain Tripper build that was made for him and explained to him (this person actually knows some of the rules, and figured out the combination, but still screwed it up).

Eldariel
2010-04-20, 02:05 AM
Wait. How does someone try to grapple with a Glaive again? To hell with maneuver+special combat option issues...what.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-20, 02:21 AM
On dragon magazine: some of the content of dragon magazine could be regarded as poorly thought or badly explained, but, overall, I allow and encourage it because the magazine several times takes care of aspects of the game WotC splats refuse to go deep in.

As an example, a player of mine gratly improved his Rogue//Psiwarrior tripper thanks to Dragon Magazine combat reflexes feats.

RAW, Dragon Magazine is 100% official. And IMHO, as for every source, even core, one should ban things case by case and campaing by campaing.

BTW, in Italy has been translated (about the "europe" thing).

I second the glaive. Is maybe my PH favorite martial weapon alongside with the falchion (the latter is betetr if the campaign has crit-vulnerable foes).

Thurbane
2010-04-20, 03:14 AM
Grappling with a Glaive.


Against two creatures outside your natural melee reach.


Both of which were LARGE SIZE.


I'm talking about a player who managed to **** up a Chain Tripper build that was made for him and explained to him (this person actually knows some of the rules, and figured out the combination, but still screwed it up).
Reminds me of something that happened in my group in EttROG:
There is a point where you are in a battle with large Rutterkins, grappling with their Snap-prong weapons. As a not particularly optimized party, we were getting seriously hosed, and if it hadn't been for the Beguiler and his Swift Etherealness and FoM, we would have suffered some casualties...