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View Full Version : [3.5] Building A Sneak



Alvrick
2010-04-19, 07:53 PM
Alright, I'm going to be playing in a 3.5 game relatively soon, and I got shunted into the stealth/disarming/skill monkey role because I was the last one to sign up. normally, I don't have an issue with this, but I'd like to get the most optimization out of my character that my DM will allow. All I really know is that I want it to be something of medium size and without an LA, as this is starting as a level 1 game.

Bear in mind that I have nearly all the 3.5 and most of the 3.0 books, and those I don't have I'll be able to find saved to my computer, so go hog wild. I just ask that it's nothing so cheesy that a cautious DM won't allow it, as I have a cautious DM

So, my questions to the playground are: What is the best Race/class combo (that can be roleplayed well enough) for the stealthy aspect of the game?

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-19, 08:07 PM
Whisper gome (RoS) Factotum OR swordsage comes to mind

Pluto
2010-04-19, 08:22 PM
Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X (CM) is the bee's knees.

Beguilers (PHB2) are great skillmonkeys and some of the best enchanter/illusionists.

RoS's Whisper Gnome (possibly with ToM's Dark template, if LA buyoff is allowed) is a pretty ridiculous race for a stealthy-type.

gorfnab
2010-04-20, 12:51 AM
Whisper Gnome Beguiler 5/ Spellthief 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Beguiler 2/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Shadowcrafter 5 :smalltongue: - Spells, skills, sneak attack, and killer illusions. Feats of note: Heighten Spell, Earth Spell, Craven, Darkstalker, Versatile Spellcaster.

Keld Denar
2010-04-20, 01:17 AM
Yea, I'd either go Swordsage, some kind of Swordsage/Rogue blend, or an Arcane Rogue build, most likely Rogue1/Wizard4/USS10/AT5 or Spellthief1/Wizard4/USS10/AT5 or similar.

And I know you wanted medium, but Whisper Gnomes are practically medium with their 30' movement, and they have awesome racial stats and abilities. Small size gives +4 size bonus to hiding as well. If not Whisper Gnomes, I'd go Strongheart Halfling or Human, because you can NEVER have enough feats.

masterjoda99
2010-04-20, 01:19 AM
Is it bad that I misread the thread title as "Building a Steak"?

Gorgondantess
2010-04-20, 01:30 AM
Oooh, oooh! I know this one!
Grey elf rogue 2/swashbuckler 3/beguiler 1/Unseen Seer 10/swordsage 1/factotum 3.
Feel free to intersperse the factotum/swordsage levels in earlier.
Take daring outlaw, practiced spellcaster, nab assassin's stance then get shadow blade.
You've got at least +16 BAB, very respectable skill points & hp, 11th level spellcasting, and a potential 8d6 sneak attack, I believe. On top of that, int to damage, int for spellcasting, int for a bunch of skills, then dex to hit and damage. You should have no need for anything but intelligence and dexterity by mid-high levels. If you ever have a need for constitution, you're doing it wrong.:smallwink:
Takes a while to get into its own, but by... 10th level or so it should do its job very well as an assassin/sneaky spellcaster type. And before that you can do your job as the skillmonkey just fine with those rogue levels.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 01:37 AM
Oooh, oooh! I know this one!
Grey elf rogue 2/swashbuckler 3/beguiler 1/Unseen Seer 10/swordsage 1/factotum 3.
Feel free to intersperse the factotum/swordsage levels in earlier.
Take daring outlaw, practiced spellcaster, nab assassin's stance then get shadow blade.
You've got at least +16 BAB, very respectable skill points & hp, 11th level spellcasting, and a potential 8d6 sneak attack, I believe. On top of that, int to damage, int for spellcasting, int for a bunch of skills, then dex to hit and damage. You should have no need for anything but intelligence and dexterity by mid-high levels. If you ever have a need for constitution, you're doing it wrong.:smallwink:
Takes a while to get into its own, but by... 10th level or so it should do its job very well as an assassin/sneaky spellcaster type. And before that you can do your job as the skillmonkey just fine with those rogue levels.

That... is one very scary build. I like it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-20, 01:51 AM
First off, go with a Strongheart Halfling. It basically trades off the +1 to saves for a bonus feat, which is pretty spiffy, but a fair tradeoff.

Now then, you want a Sneak. I assume this means the following:

*You want to be party Trapspringer
*You want to be able to sneak around unseen
*You want to be able to contribute significantly to damage output

With this in mind, here's what I'd do:

Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter build.

But wait, you said, you said you wanted to be a sneak.

Well, then it's a good thing that Scouts have Trapfinding, and all the skills you are wanting. As far as Open Locks and Disable Device... that's why you pick up Able Learner with your bonus feat to keep 'em cheap.

Now, Ranger is also a good Skillmonkey class, getting 6+Int Mod skills per level, with everything you really need, except open locks and disable device, which are both effectively still class skills with Able Learner. However, it's also a full BAB class, and Swift Hunter lets you apply precision-based damage to opponents, and advances Skirmish damage/ac.

Now, here's a tough choice to make: you need extra movement. You need 10' to activate skirmish, but you also want a full attack. Allow me to introduce you to Greater Manyshot.

Prerequsites for Greater Manyshot are: Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, and +6 BAB. By the time you hit Scout3/Ranger6, you have everything but Point Blank Shot already from Ranger, so by level 9, you have this.

Before that, you don't really need it, as you can move and make a single attack, since you don't have iterative attacks just yet.

Now, once you hit that point, you have some options:

1) Dip 2 levels of Swordsage. Grab Assassin's Stance for +2d6 per shot. That's just damn sexy for this build. Some of the other maneuvers are also pretty darn handy to have around. Child of Darkness is a very nice defensive stance to have when you are being attacked, granting you Concealment, which tells Rogues to go cry in a corner, since it negates Sneak Attack.

2) Dip a level of Sneak Attack Fighter for +1d6 Sneak Attack and maintaining full BAB progression. Pick up Craven at next opportunity.

3) Continue going with Ranger, because it's damn sexy like that.

4) Dip a level of Warlock and pick up the Invocation that gives you both Darkvision and See Invis. This negates a defense which becomes more common now, and also gives you an EB to use as a Ranged Touch Attack you can apply your sneak attack/skirmish damage to, in a pinch.

5) Dip a level of Cleric with the travel domain and Travel Devotion. This gives you sufficent movement to avoid needing Greater Manyshot.

You can play a bit with PrC's if you want to, but it might hurt you more than you gain, overall, unless you are careful. In general, single-level dips for +1d6 Sneak Attack are probably worthwhile.

Now then, you have negated one of the worst things that can happen to you: critters immune to sneak attack, by virtue of Swift Hunter. So now let us negate the next worst thing that can happen to you: opponents with concealment.

Now, this build has been easy on Feat requirements, only needing to invest one feat in Able Learner, one in Point-Blank Shot, both done by level 1, and your 9th level feat is Greater Manyshot. This gives you a couple of feats to play with.

One suggestion is Precise Shot, going into Improved Precise Shot. Now, Improved Precise Shot requires a BAB of +11. With your straight Scout3/Ranger9, you should have that at level 12, if you pick up Precise Shot at either 3 or 6. This negates any concealment short of Total Concealment, which means they cannot hide in Concealment to negate the majority of your damage.

This still leaves you one free feat at either 3 or 6 to play around with. I suggest Darkstalker, to make it nearly impossible to detect you under most circumstances.

At higher-level play, try to get more damage to apply to your attacks, and more attacks to shoot. If you can, get a way to make 10' of movement without needing to make a move action so you can benefit from Haste and Rapid Shot, and mostly play it by ear.

Eldariel
2010-04-20, 02:02 AM
Oooh, oooh! I know this one!
Grey elf rogue 2/swashbuckler 3/beguiler 1/Unseen Seer 10/swordsage 1/factotum 3.
Feel free to intersperse the factotum/swordsage levels in earlier.
Take daring outlaw, practiced spellcaster, nab assassin's stance then get shadow blade.
You've got at least +16 BAB, very respectable skill points & hp, 11th level spellcasting, and a potential 8d6 sneak attack, I believe. On top of that, int to damage, int for spellcasting, int for a bunch of skills, then dex to hit and damage. You should have no need for anything but intelligence and dexterity by mid-high levels. If you ever have a need for constitution, you're doing it wrong.:smallwink:
Takes a while to get into its own, but by... 10th level or so it should do its job very well as an assassin/sneaky spellcaster type. And before that you can do your job as the skillmonkey just fine with those rogue levels.

You can do even more than that in that shell if you so desire. I'd...heartfully suggest getting at least few more levels of casting: Allow me to explain why. If we replace the Swordsage+Factotum with casting classes (say, Arcane Trickster since we're in mood for sneak attacking), we'd end up with 15th level casting, which gives us 8th level slots. Now, why is this relevant? Well, see, Unseen Seer has Advanced Learning. It allows you to learn any Divination, even from outside the Wizard-list.

There's an incredible spell named "Hunter's Eye [PHBII]" on the Ranger-list, that just so happens to be a Divination. You may be asking: "What does this spell do?" Well, it's a swift action spell that gives you +1d6/3 CLs of Sneak Attack for that round! Now, it's normally a 2nd level spell. So why 8th level slots? Because Persistent Spell is a +6 level adjustment! In other words, while that would normally only affect one attack, you now get +1d6/3 CLs of Sneak Attack for the whole day! And know what? Divination Spell Power increases your caster level for Divinations. It's 18. That's +6d6 SA to your already considerable pool.

But there's no reason to stop there! You have Use Magic Device; purchase Strand of Prayer Beads and activate the Beads of Karma (+4 Caster Level for 10 min) before casting the spell! +7d6. Then purchase Orange Prism Ioun Stone. +1 Caster Level. Scribe Magic Tattoo for yourself. +1 Caster Level. Your Caster Level is now 21; congratulations! +8d6 Sneak Attack! You can gain further bonuses. And since we're Persisting Spells, how about we figure how to get our Sneak Attacks more reliably? Let's Persist Sniper's Shot first. No range limits on Sneak Attacks. Then we Persist Guided Shot. No miss chances on our attacks (miss chance foils Sneak Attack). Then Arrow Mind. No attacks of opportunity for ranged attacks. Then, the whole Golem Strike/Gravestrike/Vinestrike-line (you may learn them from Advanced Learnings, though it may be more economical to just Wand the ones not on your list). This allows you to Sneak Attack everything but Elementals and Oozes. For which I'm sure you can come up with some other spells.


This, then, brings the earlier levels to question. If we gain Sneak Attack from Caster Levels and can take Arcane Trickster, do we truly want Rogue/Swashbuckler to start off? Indeed, if we replace 3 of the 4 levels (we definitely want Rogue level 1 for all those tasty, tasty skill points), we end up with +9d6 Sneak Attack from that source, +3d6 Sneak Attack from Arcane Trickster, +4d6 Sneak Attack from Unseen Seer and +1d6 Sneak Attack from Rogue, giving us +17d6 Sneak Attack all day total. You can still learn Assassin's Stance with two feats for +19d6 and polymorph/dosomethingelseunspeakable for some extra SA if you feel so inclined, but I'm not going to aid you there.

By the way, another nice trick with Advanced Learning is to learn spell "Divine Insight" [SpC Clr2]. It's an hour/level spell that can be discharged for 5+Caster Level (max 15) insight bonus on any skill check! You're a skill monkey. Never fail skill checks again. Add to that Guidance of the Avatar (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20010504a). +20 Competence. So you can, with two level 2 spells, gain +35 to any skill check should you so desire. Like the sound of that? Guidance is a Touch-spell to boot so you can aid your teammates should they need to do something. Hunter's Eye, Divine Insight and Guidance is a great list of options for 3 Advanced Learnings, for example. Otherwise, Divinations like Stonetell, Commune and so on are of course of interest to anyone who wishes to know. But...for a sneak, the above spells are probably more interesting.


Now, you'll lose out on Base Attack Bonus. However, there's a simple solution: Learn Divine Power. It's an Evocation so Advanced Learning does not help us here, but Arcane Disciple does. It's a level 4 spell in a few domains so you can learn it with the modest investment of 14 Wisdom, or more likely +6 Wisdom item later on.

Now, granted, this is a more caster-y option, but for those wanting absolutely stellar skills (it's worth looking into Keen Intellect [DR319] & ask for Able Learner too), incredible sneak attack and, of course, that modest source of power that is almost full arcane casting (you'll need Practiced Spellcaster though), you are going to...know everything. And be everywhere. And never be seen. Unless you so desire, of course. Superior Invisibility + hidden magic auras + Darkstalker + obscene Hide & Move Silently makes you quite hard to detect...and only half of that is magical so Dead Magic Zones and Anti-Magic is hardly a problem.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 02:11 AM
[snip]

...

...

Whoa

combined with a rogue's blade, which gives permanent blink (and thus as many sneak attacks as I can make attacks in a round), this puts my damage by level 20 at, what? +57d6 per round?

Keld Denar
2010-04-20, 02:13 AM
Or you could cast Sniper Shot, which allows SA at any range, and then find a nice long range attack spell and SA from a quarter mile away.

BOOM! Headshot.

Eldariel
2010-04-20, 02:24 AM
Or you could cast Sniper Shot, which allows SA at any range, and then find a nice long range attack spell and SA from a quarter mile away.

BOOM! Headshot.

You can also Persist Divine Power (if you took Metamagic School Focus). And fire a volley of ~6 arrows squarely in between his eyes, each one splitting the previous one. Yes, it's physically impossible and yes, you can do it. No miss chances, no range penalties, no problems. You can also take Craven-feat for +Character Level to Sneak Attack damage, giving you around +20 damage per SA. This, combined with y'know, being awesome, allows you to deal ~

Also, you don't need a Blinkblade. You're Wizard 20. Superior Invisibility. Greater Blink. Even Quickened Grease; your means of generating Sneak Attack opportunity, even if your enemy somehow notices you (which, between the mentioned spells, few others and your obscene Hide and Move Silently which even cover various special senses, and protection from all manners of divination, is rare), are so plentiful you'll be thinking how many of those apply at each juncture, not if you have means to Sneak Attack.


And yes, since you can make 6 attacks (learn Point Blank Shot through Martial Wizard [trades Scribe Scroll for a Fighter feat] and Rapid Shot through Heroics-spell, cast Haste, Persisted Swift Haste if you so desire, and profit) with a bow, or 10-12 with two in Arrow Demon form (I promised I wouldn't, but I kinda can't avoid mentioning Polymorph-line anymore; they're just too good) for +228d6+240 Sneak Attack damage (assuming Craven and +19d6 base SA); half of that outside.

Oh, and you can Scry for your targets if they're too far for you to actually see them. Or Persist Chain of Eyes on an animal and send said animal to scout for you (Handle Animal with your Guidance+Divine Insight for +35; easy pass) and be your eyes...literally. Or I guess you've got a familiar too. But yeah, point being, you don't even need direct visual.


But keep it a bit down; Polymorph is likely too much and you don't really need over 50 dice on any given full attack :smallbiggrin: And note that the truly interesting numbers only come really late so for early game, you'll be all nice.

Alvrick
2010-04-20, 02:32 AM
you realize what this means, don't you? even if I roll 1s on every d6 available to me in this ungodly sneak attack, I still deal, at minimum, 468 damage, not including whatever damage the arrow does. I love you, Eldariel. You have inspired me with your mad optimizing skills.