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View Full Version : [D&D 3.5, Partial Gestalt] How well can I do with just tier 5-6?



Reynard
2010-04-20, 05:16 AM
I... dislike 3.5, but the person in my group who's taking the DM helm this campaign wants to play a moderately powerful 3.5 game, and I figure: why not have some fun and experiment a bit?

We're using a strange array of houserules/variants for character creation.

Basically:

Game starts at level 1.
Free ECL of +3. Humans, Dwarves, etc are counted as ECL +1. We can choose to add templates, choose a different race, whatever, but not over ECL +3. You can't add class levels instead.
30 point buy. Because there was a mild argument over 28 or 32 point buy.
Partial Gestalt. Using the tier system. I.e Tier 1-2s can't gestalt, Tier 3-4s can only gestalt with NPC classes, Tier 5-6 can gestalt with any other tier 5-6, or the NPC classes.
Max of 2 traits (as SRD)
Max of two flaws (as SRD)

So, I want to try and build an effective character using just tier 5-6 classes, just to see if it's possible.

What I've got so far is:
Half-Minotaur Hobgoblin Fighter 1//Soulknife 1 (Yes, Soulknife).

Starting stats, with templates/race modifiers:
Str 20.
Dex 16.
Con 20.
Int 10.
Wis 16.
Cha 8.

Feats:
[The free stuff from Soulknife].
Martial Reflexes.
Track (from template).
Martial Study: Shadow Hand, Shadow Blade Technique.
Martial Stance: Shadow Hand, Island of Blades.
Improved Initiative.

Flaws:
Murky-Eyed.
Shaky.

The best armour I can afford is scale+steel heavy shield, and that leaves me with only 10gp for items. If I loose the shield and replace it with a wooden version, I'll have 34gp.

I'm not exactly a font of knowledge when it comes to 3.5, so any advice you can give would be welcome. I'm sticking to tier 5-6 classes, that isn't going to change unless/until this guy dies.

Saph
2010-04-20, 05:26 AM
The thing about gestalt is that you still only have one round's worth of actions, so it's a good idea to have one 'active' class and one 'passive' class. The issue with Soulknife is that it doesn't really add anything to Fighter except for better saves and a couple more skill points.

With your constraints, Fighter // Monk wouldn't be bad. Fighter // Ninja could work too.

Fortuna
2010-04-20, 05:36 AM
I might actually advise a skillmonkey of some description, unless you want to patch your bad save (which is far from crucial just yet, I reckon).

I'm unfamiliar with ninja, but Expert could work if nothing else.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 05:40 AM
All that monk would add is decent will/reflex saves, unless I use no armour at all. The soulknife also provides decent will/reflex saves and a free 1d8+str (eventually 2d8+1.5str) weapon .

I don't have the books with either version of the ninja, so I don't have any reference of it's abilities.

But I see your point about the rounds worth of actions. Forming a mindblade takes a move action which, IIRC, means I can't full attack in the round I create it, correct?

EDIT: We've already got someone who's going for the skillmonkey role, I've taken up the role of meatshield due to not being fast enough to claim anything better.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-20, 05:43 AM
For race, I'd suggest a phrenic lesser cansin (dragon 297) with magic-in-the-blood to get 3/day uses of your PLAs. That's got enough goodies from race along to make your class features somewhat redundant.

Iferus
2010-04-20, 05:48 AM
I'd guess this can be a competent character. You'll have to keep Soulknife up to level 20, but you can pick abilities from other classes at will.

Radar
2010-04-20, 05:50 AM
This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127927) thread from a while back has a bunch of interesting low-tier builds, that are viable even without Gestalt, so you might want to take a look there for ideas.

Saph
2010-04-20, 06:10 AM
All that monk would add is decent will/reflex saves, unless I use no armour at all. The soulknife also provides decent will/reflex saves and a free 1d8+str (eventually 2d8+1.5str) weapon .

I don't have the books with either version of the ninja, so I don't have any reference of it's abilities.

Try Fighter // Ninja then. Ninja gets Sudden Strike, a weaker version of Rogue Sneak Attack (it only works if the target's denied their Dex bonus). You could take charger feats, boost your Initiative, then charge an enemy in the first round of combat for fighter damage and Sudden Strike damage. On later rounds you can go invisible before attacking. Could actually work fairly well.

The Ninja class is from Complete Adventurer, at the beginning of the book.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 06:21 AM
It's not that I don't know which book it's in, it's that I don't have it. And I don't want to acquire it through other means.

Would it be a decent idea to take a couple of levels in Adept for self-buffing spells?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-20, 07:08 AM
It's not that I don't know which book it's in, it's that I don't have it. And I don't want to acquire it through other means.

Would it be a decent idea to take a couple of levels in Adept for self-buffing spells?

If you do that, you may as well use a Tier 3 class, as adept is an NPC class.

Eloel
2010-04-20, 07:16 AM
An interesting option would be Warblade//Adept. Grab Turn Undead from some PrC, go Adept-zilla. Persistent buffs on a very strong 'chassis' - pure gold.

Loren
2010-04-20, 07:34 AM
I'd actually be inclined to recommend the monk/fighter.
so long as you are wearing light armour many of the monk's ablities still function, like the evasion at second level. All you'd really lose is the AC bonus (and frankly, a chain shirt will probably give you a better AC anways) and the fast movement.
In exchange you will get a weapon that can't be disarmed (you fists) access to exotic weapons and a bunch of feats and class features.

So, in effect you would have
full bab
full saves
a good hd
decent skills (tumble, always nice for a meelee)
a ton of feats which would give options in combat (imp grapple, com reflexes, and imp trip or disarm from monk plus fighter feats)

I'd go with studded armour at lvl 1 and maybe shift over to a chain shirt later. This would free up money for a weapon and get more bang for your buck out of dex (which I would raise by scrapping some con or wis)

much as I like Tome of Batle, I'm not sure you'll get the most utility out of Martial study. 1d6 damage per encounter + a possible effect that probably won't occure, particularly a high levels, just doesn't do it for me.
I'd actually be inclined to go with weapon focus, dodge, power attack, or exotic weapon. both weapon focus and dodge are not great feats in themselves, but they will put you on the track of getting more options. Power will give more potential damage and also give options further down the line. exotic weapon will give you a weapon that will allow you to use the abilities you have coming with greater proficiency (look at the spiked chain, reach for combat reflexes, trip and +2 to disarm, note that being 2-handed it gives another +4 to disarm)

Reynard
2010-04-20, 08:01 AM
Thing is, this campaign is going to be an urban game, which probably means more than a few fights inside buildings, at least at low levels. As a Large creature, I'm not going to be able to move around a lot due to cramped quarters, and moving too much would kinda defeat the point of being the caster protector anyway.

One of the other players did express interest in a tanky character (Well, he said 'Taaaannkkk!'), but which makes the make up of our party Cleric/Rouge/Wizard (focusing on damage, not battlefield control)/Psion (don't know which kind, yet)/'taaaankkk'/whatever I decide on.

So depending on the Psion's choice of discipline, the group might need either someone to mess with terrain, or someone to protect the squishies.

Loren
2010-04-20, 08:19 AM
what in the character you pesented do you like/want to keep?
Do you want to be a hulking minotaur?
do you want to be a soulknife?

we can come up with all sorts of builds for you that some how combine to tier 6 classes, but the catch is, what do you want out of it beyond an effective character?

with regard to the monk build
by combining a reach weapon with your size you will be able to cover a massive area (a 20 foot radius with a spiked chain), with combat reflexes and a high dex you will be able to attack anything that moves in that sphere, and with trip or disarm you can render you opponents useless (taking advantage of your size too). With a single sword, enven a large one, you will never be able to provide that sort of defensive cover for your friends. With tumble you can adjus the cover you provide by 10-15 without risking attacks (note that if you retreat 10 feet an opponent moving to hit you will be forced to provoke an AoO to close with you). At lvl2 this thing will be a DM's nightmare, particularly in confined spaces as he won't be able to get arround it.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 08:26 AM
Heh, good idea. I'll just have to hope he doesn't put too many 5ft wide corridors. Actually, related point, what would be the str check to smash though a wooden wall?

Loren
2010-04-20, 08:31 AM
also, depending on how you guys interpert Island of Blades, you'd grant flanking on anything in 20ft (won't the rogue love that)


walls
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/dungeons.htm#walls

Reynard
2010-04-20, 08:41 AM
@Walls. Huh. So I should be able to headbutt my way through most homes. Good to know.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-20, 08:52 AM
No offense or anything, but that system of partial gestalt is just stupid. The Adept is tier 4, and you let it gestalt with any tier 3 class? :smallconfused:

Instead you should probably go something like tier 1/-, 2/6, 3/5, and 4/4. Or maybe 1/6, 2/5, 3/4. The expert and adept are a lot better than the other NPC classes.

Loren
2010-04-20, 08:56 AM
Another thought, check out the warhulk in the Minitures Handbook (page 22)
at lvl6 you may have all out of monk that you want and all you need is cleave to shift over to war hulk. Combine with fighter you will have the highest attack modifier in the game and will be doing a signficant amount of damage. The cap ability of the class will allow you to attack anything in reach as a standard action at you highest modifier.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 09:00 AM
No offense taken, it wasn't my choice. I'd rather be doing 4e or pathfinder, and sat out most of the char creation brainstorm. But hey, go with the flow. And it'll be fun to squeeze something useful from the monk class.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 09:04 AM
Another thought, check out the warhulk in the Minitures Handbook (page 22)
at lvl6 you may have all out of monk that you want and all you need is cleave to shift over to war hulk. Combine with fighter you will have the highest attack modifier in the game and will be doing a signficant amount of damage. The cap ability of the class will allow you to attack anything in reach as a standard action at you highest modifier.

So, wisdom is a dumpstat for Monk//Fighters? And they haven't decided what they're going to do about PrCs, yet.

Gnaritas
2010-04-20, 09:15 AM
An interesting option would be Warblade//Adept. Grab Turn Undead from some PrC, go Adept-zilla. Persistent buffs on a very strong 'chassis' - pure gold.

This sounds like what i would do.
Well, at least the Warblade//Adept part if i had to be the tank. The PrC is probably not allowed and the best persistent spells are not on the adept list.

Loren
2010-04-20, 09:32 AM
So, wisdom is a dumpstat for Monk//Fighters?
It seems to me that using this build it can be as you aren't actually getting any benefit from it other than a few bonuses to skills. You aren't using it for AC, as fighter provides better options and you aren't using it for stunning fists.
I'm sure you could make a fighter/monk that uses wis, but in this case it is not necessary, which cuts back on the MAD of monks. In fact, I'd propose you'd get more use out of int as it would provide skill points you can apply where you want or buy Skill Tricks.
I'd say that the abilities that this buld would benefit the most from are Str (for attacks and damage) and Dex (for # of AoO, AC, and Reflex). Int and Con are both of benefit for skill points and hit points respectively. Wis is nice because it give Will and affects a number of skills, but...

Draz74
2010-04-20, 10:17 AM
I'll actually vote for the Gestalt Soulknife. No, it's probably not the strongest combo you could come up with ... but it should be reasonably good if you pick its "other side" well.

Take 9 levels of Fighter, with Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim; and use the Imperious Command trick. Splash a level of Mashal sometime if your Charisma is decent. (Is Marshal T4 or T5? I suppose that's debatable.)

Reynard
2010-04-20, 10:26 AM
I don't know about Dungeoncrasher, but Zhentarim is tier 4, so I couldn't gestalt it with Soulknife.

EDIT: Same for Marshal.

Loren
2010-04-20, 11:00 AM
after looking at your races, I gotta ask, what is the hobgoblin for? Wouldn't a straight minotaur without the monsterous class levels be better?
you get etra attacks, a strong natural weapon, natural armour. not to meantion an enormous strength bonus

Reynard
2010-04-20, 11:15 AM
So, here's my revised monk//fighter.

Half-Minotaur Hobgoblin Monk1//Fighter1.

Abilities.

___Base____Race_____Template____Total
STR 14 ____ -- _____ +4 ____ 18
DEX 16 ____ +2 _____ ------ ____ 18
CON 14 ____ +2 _____ +2 ____ 18
INT 14 ____ -- _____ -2 ____ 12
WIS 10 ____ -- _____ +2 ____ 12
CHA 8 ____ -- _____ ------ ____ 8

Saves.
Will: 3
Ref: 6
Fort: 6

HP: 14

AC: 17
Touch: 14
FFooted: 10


Skill ranks gained at first level.
Jump 4
Climb 4
Spot 3
Listen 3
Swim 2
Tumble 4


Feats:
Improved Grapple (Monk Bonus)
Improved Unarmed Strike (Monk)
Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain (Fighter Bonus)
Power Attack (Flaw Feat)
Cleave (Flaw Feat)
Improved Trip


Flaws
Murky Eyed.
Shaky.


Equipment.

Armour.
Large Studded Leather Armour. 50gp

Weapons.
Large Spiked Chain. 25gp (2d6+1.5xStr, x2 on crit)
Unarmed Strike (1d8+Str, x2 on crit)

Looking good?

Reynard
2010-04-20, 11:24 AM
after looking at your races, I gotta ask, what is the hobgoblin for? Wouldn't a straight minotaur without the monsterous class levels be better?
you get etra attacks, a strong natural weapon, natural armour. not to meantion an enormous strength bonus

As explained in first post, we've been given, for some reason, a free ECL of 3. Hobgobolin+Half-Minotaur template=ECL 3.
Straight Minotaurs are ECL 8.

Person_Man
2010-04-20, 11:50 AM
Knight//Healer

The Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429) is a somewhat maligned tank class, generally considered to be Tier 5. If gets full BAB, d12 hit die, heavy armor, some mounted combat bonus feats, and some excellent battlefield control abilities. It's big weaknesses; All of it's class abilities are geared toward mounted combat but it doesn't get a special mount or animal companion, and if enemies are constantly hitting you because you forced them to with Test of Mettle, you have a tendency to die quickly.

The Healer is generally considered one of the weakest classes in the game. It has exactly 2 useful class features; Full casting from a VERY limited list - but it does include Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Freedom of Movement, Break Enchantment, True Seeing, Heal, Resurrection, Foresight, Gate, all the Cure Spells, plus the ability to remove pretty much every debuff in the game (Poison, Fatigue, Paralysis, etc). And it gets a Unicorn (http://pbfcomics.com/?cid=PBF103-Nice_Shirt.gif) Animal Companion (that gets better as you gain levels) that can Share Spells, Saves, Improved Evasion, etc.

Put them together and you have a highly mobile aggro tank with an awesome mount that can self heal itself and easily overcome many common caster problems. The only problem is MAD. You need decent Str, Con, and Cha, with a Wis = 10 + the highest spell level you can cast. But with your 3 levels of free racial stuff, that shouldn't be a problem.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 11:55 AM
That's an awesome concept, and it'd be great for something like a Draconic Aasimar. Sadly, I don't think mounted combat is going to feature much in this game.

Person_Man
2010-04-20, 12:11 PM
Sadly, I don't think mounted combat is going to feature much in this game.

Why not?

A human sitting or horseback is around 8 feet tall. So unless you're in a room with very low ceilings, there's nothing stopping you from fighting while mounted. If your DM insists that there's not enough room, you can still fight while mounted and take Squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) penalties, which are not that bad. Or you can invest in UMD (you will have decent Cha after all) cross class and use a wand of Alter Self on yourself, and Share Spells with your Unicorn. Then you turn into a small whatever (presumably a humaniod, but you could swing Outsider or something else depending on your racial choice), and your Unicorn turns into a Medium Magical Beast of your choice.

Also, you only need 10 ft of distance to Charge. So even if you're in an enclosed space, it shouldn't be that difficult to get one or two massive damage hits off, and then spend the rest of the time being a black hole of battlefield control with Stand Still and your Knight abilities.

Amphetryon
2010-04-20, 12:11 PM
That's an awesome concept, and it'd be great for something like a Draconic Aasimar. Sadly, I don't think mounted combat is going to feature much in this game.

Choosing a small race makes mounted combat more viable, in general, for a wider variety of combats. A Mineral Warrior [template] Halfling, for instance, becomes a very decent Knight, able to use the Halfling Outrider PrC to become a Supermount-type.

Eldariel
2010-04-20, 02:45 PM
Why not?

A human sitting or horseback is around 8 feet tall. So unless you're in a room with very low ceilings, there's nothing stopping you from fighting while mounted. If your DM insists that there's not enough room, you can still fight while mounted and take Squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm) penalties, which are not that bad. Or you can invest in UMD (you will have decent Cha after all) cross class and use a wand of Alter Self on yourself, and Share Spells with your Unicorn. Then you turn into a small whatever (presumably a humaniod, but you could swing Outsider or something else depending on your racial choice), and your Unicorn turns into a Medium Magical Beast of your choice.

Also, you only need 10 ft of distance to Charge. So even if you're in an enclosed space, it shouldn't be that difficult to get one or two massive damage hits off, and then spend the rest of the time being a black hole of battlefield control with Stand Still and your Knight abilities.

Races of Stone also has Tunnel Fighting and Tunnel Riding which stop you from taking penalties to AC or To Hit while squeezing making mounted combat in dungeons quite easy.

Reynard
2010-04-20, 03:02 PM
Races of Stone also has Tunnel Fighting and Tunnel Riding which stop you from taking penalties to AC or To Hit while squeezing making mounted combat in dungeons quite easy.

Cool. I'll have to take Tunnel Fighting at level 2 to ease fighting inside..

Taelas
2010-04-20, 04:39 PM
You're using the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon 313?

If that is the case, you forgot to apply the size modifiers -- the Half-Minotaur template specifically says they apply when it is applied to a Medium-sized creature. That would mean an additional +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +2 NA, -1 AC/Attack, for a total of +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, +4 NA, -1 AC/Attack.

All for LA+1. (Yes, this template is broken. Why do you ask? :P)

Reynard
2010-04-20, 04:47 PM
...


:D

Awesomesauce. Wait. I could have a STR at lv1 of 20 without putting any points into it whatsoever?

Does natural armour apply to touch/Ffooted attacks? I can never remember.

Taelas
2010-04-20, 04:50 PM
It applies to flat-footed, but not touch AC.

deuxhero
2010-04-20, 05:28 PM
For soulknife take the ACF that trades the worthless psychic strike for more feats (any feat that can be used with the mindblade). It's in mind's eye.


You could also go with the Phenric+Half Fey templates with the feat Magic in the Blood. It's +1 LA (can you buy off? Still good) total if you use a LA+0 (whatever those are under the system you are using is) but you are effectively given a Sorcerer gestalt on top of what you normally take.