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dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 10:06 AM
I know there is some debate as to the effects of losing prereqs after taking a PrC, but I got to wondering about some of the ways this could be problematic.

Would polymorph mess up anyone who takes a race specific Prc?



The subjectís creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

What about a PrC with a BAB requirement? Could you get into Abjurant Champion from Wizard a level early by UMD'ing a scroll of Divine Power? Once you are in, would the +1 BAB from AC allow you to continue to meet the prereq?

Eldonauran
2010-04-20, 10:23 AM
As long as you meet the requirement for a prestige class, you can take levels in it. The moment you no longer meet the requirements, you lose the benefits from that PRC.

It works the same way with feats. In your instance, once the duration runs out of the Divine Power, you only keep the BAB, saves and skills from the prestige class. The bonus to spellcasting and class skills goes away until you meet the requirements again.

The race thing is tricky, like with dragon disciple. You become a dragon at the end of the prestige and no longer meet the requirements of the prestige (can not be a dragon). However, these 'transformation' prestige classes are exceptions to the rules. Otherwise, you lose the race, you lose the benefits.

As a DM, I do not allow temporary changes to a player (such as a spell or similar effect) to affect whether or not they lose access to a prestige class. Polymorphing would be fine in my games.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 10:57 AM
It's a bit of a gray area, so I usually rule that continuous effects can get you into a PrC and only permanent effects get you out. Using the divine power example, that would mean that UMDing a scroll wouldn't do it, but wearing an item that gives you divine power as long as it's worn would (though of course you'd lose the PrC if you lose the item). A temporary change in form wouldn't make you lose it, but a permanent change in form (say polymorph any object into another race) would, though returning to your original form would restore it.

Tinydwarfman
2010-04-20, 12:15 PM
Didn't one of the many polymorph erratas address this? That you keep your type?

dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 12:38 PM
What I meant about Abjurant Champion:

Wiz 8 has BAB +4.

Let's suppose he has enough XP to level to ECL 9

Casting Divine Power (through arcane disciple, or UMD'ing a scroll -- whatever) his BAB becomes +8.

Assuming he has all of the other prereq's met, he is eligible for Abjurant Champion and takes a level in that during the next 42-48 seconds.

His BAB is now +5, so at the end of the spell, he still qualifies for Abjurant Champion, and would not lose the class abilities.

dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 12:40 PM
Didn't one of the many polymorph erratas address this? That you keep your type?

That may be. I was just trying to think of different ways besides DD that disqualifying after the fact might unintentionally happen.

Eldonauran
2010-04-20, 12:56 PM
What I meant about Abjurant Champion:

Wiz 8 has BAB +4.

Let's suppose he has enough XP to level to ECL 9

Casting Divine Power (through arcane disciple, or UMD'ing a scroll -- whatever) his BAB becomes +8.

Assuming he has all of the other prereq's met, he is eligible for Abjurant Champion and takes a level in that during the next 42-48 seconds.

His BAB is now +5, so at the end of the spell, he still qualifies for Abjurant Champion, and would not lose the class abilities.

Strictly speaking ... that would work, if leveling could happen that quickly (not so sure on that as far as RAW). As a DM, I would require the effect to last, at minimum, 8 hours at a time before I would allow the character to take the level.

Anxe
2010-04-20, 01:16 PM
There's a house rule for everything, but what's the RAW on this?

dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 01:45 PM
Strictly speaking ... that would work, if leveling could happen that quickly (not so sure on that as far as RAW). As a DM, I would require the effect to last, at minimum, 8 hours at a time before I would allow the character to take the level.

So you would allow it on a persisted divine power?

Eldonauran
2010-04-20, 02:33 PM
So you would allow it on a persisted divine power?

I would, yes. For my players and I, the effect has to last at least as long as a period of rest (8 hours) in order for the character to 'learn' the new skills of the class.

The way it work in my games is once the character accumulates enough exp to gain a level, they must have at least 8 hours of 'down time' in order to reach that new level.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-20, 02:56 PM
What I meant about Abjurant Champion:

Wiz 8 has BAB +4.

Let's suppose he has enough XP to level to ECL 9

Casting Divine Power (through arcane disciple, or UMD'ing a scroll -- whatever) his BAB becomes +8.

Assuming he has all of the other prereq's met, he is eligible for Abjurant Champion and takes a level in that during the next 42-48 seconds.

His BAB is now +5, so at the end of the spell, he still qualifies for Abjurant Champion, and would not lose the class abilities.

Yes, you can do that. DMs might not like it though.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-20, 02:59 PM
RAW, you level in a second, so a spell that lasts only 1 round could qualify you for things.

This is most often used by the bard's Inspire Heroics ability, giving extra HD hence skill points, allowing very very early entry.

dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 04:41 PM
RAW, you level in a second, so a spell that lasts only 1 round could qualify you for things.

This is most often used by the bard's Inspire Heroics ability, giving extra HD hence skill points, allowing very very early entry.

I think you mean Inspire Greatness, but I'm not sure how that would work. The ability specifies the HD size and bonus to attack/saves, but doesn't mention anything about gaining skill points. Is there a default number of skill points per HD. It seems less clear to me that this is granting those points without just making the argument "It doesn't say I don't."

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 04:43 PM
I think you mean Inspire Greatness, but I'm not sure how that would work. The ability specifies the HD size and bonus to attack/saves, but doesn't mention anything about gaining skill points. Is there a default number of skill points per HD. It seems less clear to me that this is granting those points without just making the argument "It doesn't say I don't."

You use that in conjunction with psychic reformation to spend your skill points with the new level cap of (level plus HD) + 3; when the HD go away, you've spent all of your skill points, not the extra HD's skill points, so you can keep them and thus enter PrCs early.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-20, 04:44 PM
I think you mean Inspire Greatness, but I'm not sure how that would work. The ability specifies the HD size and bonus to attack/saves, but doesn't mention anything about gaining skill points. Is there a default number of skill points per HD. It seems less clear to me that this is granting those points without just making the argument "It doesn't say I don't."

You have a MAX Ranks by HD= HD (class adds HD) + 3.

He is talking about BAB requirements not HD (BAB is given by the Bard ability).

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-20, 04:53 PM
Either or can be used. You can qualify for most PrCs at 2nd level.

dextercorvia
2010-04-20, 06:17 PM
You use that in conjunction with psychic reformation to spend your skill points with the new level cap of (level plus HD) + 3; when the HD go away, you've spent all of your skill points, not the extra HD's skill points, so you can keep them and thus enter PrCs early.

That would work with, since transparency would say that the psionics would treat the character as having the adjusted HD amount. Do I have it correct?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-04-20, 06:52 PM
That would work with, since transparency would say that the psionics would treat the character as having the adjusted HD amount. Do I have it correct?

Right. When you get psychic reformation manifested on you, you have those extra HD, so you can reallocate skill points with that higher rank limit.

jiriku
2010-04-20, 10:13 PM
So you would allow it on a persisted divine power?

I'd suggest that this is a bad idea. The game already suffers from a major power imbalance between casters and non-casters. Allowing characters early entry into prestige classes with persisted divine power is only going to make it worse, since spellcasters have much easier access to that option than non-casters and a prestige class typically increases the power of a character.

Eldonauran
2010-04-21, 10:04 AM
I'd suggest that this is a bad idea. The game already suffers from a major power imbalance between casters and non-casters. Allowing characters early entry into prestige classes with persisted divine power is only going to make it worse, since spellcasters have much easier access to that option than non-casters and a prestige class typically increases the power of a character.

Yeah, but until they actually have enough BAB to ensure that you meet the requirements, a quick dispel magic will really screw you over. Loss of prestige class abilities AND bonus spellcasting granted by the class; is that really something you want to risk?

dextercorvia
2010-04-21, 02:55 PM
Yeah, but until they actually have enough BAB to ensure that you meet the requirements, a quick dispel magic will really screw you over. Loss of prestige class abilities AND bonus spellcasting granted by the class; is that really something you want to risk?

That's why I chose for my example a situation where the PrC benefits would grant the character the ability to stay in the class immediately.