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Fisticuffs
2010-04-20, 02:55 PM
I'm playing a CG Half-Elf Rogue 3/Paladin of Freedom(UA) 3
I'm spending my next level entering the Outcast Champion PrC(RoD) for role-playing reasons. He's serving as a scout/support/secondary front-line fighter. Aside from equipment I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for an optimal build.

IonDragon
2010-04-20, 03:06 PM
This post contains insufficient information.

Sources available?
Ability Scores?
Current Feat selections?

Fisticuffs
2010-04-20, 03:50 PM
:redface: I forgot to post the scores.
18 17(upped to 18 at 4th level) 16 14 14 14 (none have been assigned yet)
I was think of putting one 18 into Cha for the Paladin abilities, as I said I'm more support then an actual fighter, and the other 18 in Dex because I'm going to be wearing lighter armor from being a Rogue.

For sources I can use any 3.5 book with the exclusion of ToB and ToM.

The only feat I was really thinking about was Hands of a Healer(BED), again it'd just help with my support position.

Person_Man
2010-04-20, 03:57 PM
The primary (perhaps only) reason to play a Half-Elf is for access to the Sociable Personality feat (Races of Destiny) which lets you re-roll any Diplomacy or Gather Information check. Since you presumably have high Cha, I would highly suggest taking it and learning how to abuse Diplomacy.

Outcast Champion is a pretty lousy PrC. Consider anything else instead.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-20, 04:34 PM
Well the character is supposed to be leading a half-human revolt so Outcast Champion seamed like a good fit. The problem I see is that alot of the good prestige classes have Lawful as a prerequisite, plus Outcast Champion has very lose prerequisite, making it easy to get into without having to waste skill points and feats in things I don't want trying to get into a prestige class. Do you know any PrC in particular that might serve me better?

IonDragon
2010-04-20, 10:07 PM
As far as optimizing your build:
Paladin is SubOp, Rogue is SubOp, Half-X is SubOp. Given that you want all of those, the only thing left for us to help with is assigning stats and feats.

I'd put one 18 in Str, and the other in Cha. Put something decent in Int so you can take many of the skills from your huge list. The points in Str are generally better than in Dex if you're not doing a lot of sneaking around in the shadows. IIRC Paladins (Even one's of Freedom) aren't allowed to use underhanded tactics like that.

Since ToB is banned, I can't recommend Crusader which is /sadface

You may consider Rogue/Swashbuckler and take the Daring Outlaw feat (CScound, 76). I don't know that much about it, but I see other people recommend it all the time.

You may also spare a thought for Cleric instead of Paladin, and simply reflavor it to be what you're looking for. The fluff descriptions for classes and PRCs are NOT set in stone. Talk to your GM, if they are reasonable, you can be a "Divinely blessed warrior of Freedom" and be a Cleric.

For that same reason, I'd listen to Person_Man and not take that PRC. I don't know anything about it as I don't have that book, but there's no real reason to take a PRC that sucks just for fluff reasons. There's no reason you can't be of a different class and be the same character.

EDIT: I realize several of these points are contradictory, I am aware. These are just things to think about. I'm not about to come over there and write your sheet for you :smallcool:

Geiger Counter
2010-04-20, 10:41 PM
shadowbane inquisitor

Escheton
2010-04-20, 11:55 PM
shadowbane inquisitor

seconded..

Person_Man
2010-04-21, 09:55 AM
Well the character is supposed to be leading a half-human revolt so Outcast Champion seamed like a good fit. The problem I see is that alot of the good prestige classes have Lawful as a prerequisite, plus Outcast Champion has very lose prerequisite, making it easy to get into without having to waste skill points and feats in things I don't want trying to get into a prestige class. Do you know any PrC in particular that might serve me better?
Other options:

Take another level of Paladin of Freedom for access to Turn Undead, which can be used to fuel many uber divine and domain feats.
Hellreaver: Immunity to Fear, Mettle, some Smite-like abilities, and the ability to heal 10/20/30 (depending on your level) points of damage every round of combat to you or a Good ally within a short range as a Swift Action. Fiendish Codex II.
Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526): One level grants you proficiency with all exotic weapons, which greatly increases your ability to Trip, Disarm, Grapple, or do a variety of other things without having to spend any feats. Complete Scoundrel.
Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b): 1 level for your Cha bonus to whatever you want (presumably Str, Dex, or Cha checks, depending on what you want to do) and Skill Focus (Diplomacy).
Knight of the Weave: If you want a Gish, this PrC gives you full BAB and fast casting progression up to 6th level spells. Champions of Valor.
Wild Runner: Fast Movement, boost to Str and Dex, Fear effect, Scent, Hide in Plain Site, limited Pounce, Unfettered Stride, limited Fast Healing.
Tactical Soldier: If you happen to already have Combat Reflexes and Cleave, this PrC is a good 2 level dip for a Rogue. You'll get the ability to Flank from any angle (useful for triggering Sneak Attack) and Sidestep (extra 5 ft step) as a bonus feat. Miniatures Handbook.



FYI to those who suggested it, IIRC Shadowbane Inquisitor is Lawful Good only.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-21, 10:42 AM
The campaign's a 'If you were born in a D&D setting' so the character's supposed to be based off of my personality, which is why I've made some obviously sub-pare choices. (at least the house-rules give the extra skill points as a human)

I'm quite certain that a PoF can sneak and fight underhanded, he just can't use poison, actively support the established law, or harm innocents.

As for the PrC suggestions:
Marshal IS a base class which means it having no prerequisites does make it appealing also it could easily fit the same description.

I'll have to find a Champions of Valor to take a peek at the Knight of the Weave.

Which book is Wild Runner in?

The Tactical Soldier sounds nice but again it'd make me use 2 of my 3 feats just to get into it, it's still worth considering though.

hamishspence
2010-04-21, 10:45 AM
Depending on your outlook, some splatbooks (Defenders of the Faith & BoED) support the notion that even a LG paladin can be sneaky.

So do some of the novels, like Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak's Finders Stone trilogy.

Person_Man
2010-04-21, 01:28 PM
As for the PrC suggestions:
Marshal IS a base class which means it having no prerequisites does make it appealing also it could easily fit the same description.

I'll have to find a Champions of Valor to take a peek at the Knight of the Weave.

Which book is Wild Runner in?

The Tactical Soldier sounds nice but again it'd make me use 2 of my 3 feats just to get into it, it's still worth considering though.

Knight of the Weave is probably your best option if you are going to be playing this game for a long time. At ECL 14 (assuming Rogue 3/PoF 3 entry) you'll have +13 BAB and 6th level spells (just one level behind a full caster). But around ECL 7-10 you're going to be struggling with just 1st and 2nd level spells.

Wild Runner is in Races of the Wild. It's probably your best option if you want a Dex/Cha based melee/fear build with good scouting Skills.

Tactical Soldier only works well if you have another Tank or Rogue to work with, and you want to use an AoO combo. If you do, then great. If not, I'd skip it.

Hellreaver is your best pure tank option.

Also, you might want to consider Rogue 2/PoF 3 or 4 instead of Rogue 3. 1d6 of Sneak Attack is all you need to qualify for Staggering Strike and Craven. The extra 1d6 is not really worth spending a class level on.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-22, 11:25 AM
Thanks for all the help Person Man, I'm going with:

Rogue 2/ Paladin 4

Str:14
Dex:18
Con: 14 (16 when I get the money to purchase an Amulet of Health)
Int: 16 (trying to make up for losing the level to Rogue)
Wis: 14
Cha: 18

Feats:
Craven (thanks alot for the feat)
Endurance(DM gave as a bonus feat)
Weapon Finesse
Divine Vigor(best Divine feat I could find, if you know of a better one)
Extra Smiting (Holy Warrior alternate class feature, Complete Champion)

Planning on taking levels in Wildrunner.

Escheton
2010-04-22, 12:15 PM
Depending on your outlook, some splatbooks (Defenders of the Faith & BoED) support the notion that even a LG paladin can be sneaky.

So do some of the novels, like Jeff Grubb & Kate Novak's Finders Stone trilogy.

sneaky yes, hidy no
stealth and subterfuge, two different things

hamishspence
2010-04-22, 12:34 PM
Isn't it the other way round? There's nothing in the code forbidding Hide checks or Sneak Attacks- but there is something forbidding outright lying.

That said, there are ways to mislead without telling an outright lie, and (depending on the DM) paladins may be permitted these.

Nondetection- to conceal the fact that you are Good, being the most obvious example.

In Tymora's Luck, an exchange between various party members, including a paladin:

Paladin: "They say that a lot of creatures in Gehenna bluff their way to power. You just have to bluff better than they do"

Fighter: "Bluffing? Isn't that like lying? Are paladins allowed to do that?"

Paladin "Really, your notions of paladins are so old-fashioned. We're honest, not stupid. If some evil creature is prepared to believe I'm more powerful than he is, why should I disabuse him of the notion?"

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:10 PM
There is a feat for something like this: Divine Inquitsitor

I also suggest a PrC out of Complete Divine for "Paladins who became CG"

Person_Man
2010-04-22, 01:52 PM
Thanks for all the help Person Man, I'm going with:

Rogue 2/ Paladin 4

Str:14
Dex:18
Con: 14 (16 when I get the money to purchase an Amulet of Health)
Int: 16 (trying to make up for losing the level to Rogue)
Wis: 14
Cha: 18

Feats:
Craven (thanks alot for the feat)
Endurance(DM gave as a bonus feat)
Weapon Finesse
Divine Vigor(best Divine feat I could find, if you know of a better one)
Extra Smiting (Holy Warrior alternate class feature, Complete Champion)

Planning on taking levels in Wildrunner.

I would drop Divine Vigor and Extra Smiting. Instead, consider:

Sociable Personality: Again, this is the primary reason to be a Half-Elf.
Staggering Strike: Enemy must Save or be Stagered for 1 round every time you make a melee Sneak Attack. Comp Adventurer.
Travel Devotion: Swift Action Movement every round for 1 minute. Fueled by Turn Undead. Comp Champion.
Earth Devotion: Ignore or create difficult terrain as an Immediate Action. Improves your mobility options or helps you lock down an enemy. In particular, an enemy cannot Charge through difficult terrain. Fueled by Turn Undead. Comp Champion.
Combat Panache: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter - which is an awesome debuff against BBEG. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. So if youíre close to death and afraid of multiple attacks before you can heal or run away, this will make your enemies ignore you for until you choose to get up. PHBII.
Divine Defiance: Burn a turn/rebuke undead use to counter a spell as an Immediate Action. You must still have Dispel Magic or the same spell available though - so you'll need to buy a wand and a wand chamber (to keep it in your favorite weapon). This is a great option for the various half casters tanks who hate magic users. Fiendish Codex II.
Frightful Presence: Gives you a Frightful Presence aura. Remember, Fear effects stack. Draconomicon.
Fearless Destiny: Once per day when you are reduced to -10 or fewer hit points, you are instead reduced to -9 and stable. Races of Destiny
Persistent Refusal: Burn a turn/rebuke use as a Swift Action to make a second Save against any effect that targets you and has a continuing duration (poor man's Iron Heart Surge). Fiendish Codex II.


Persistent Refusal and Divine Defiance are Divine feats (qualify for Holy Warrior). But if you take the Holy Warrior alternate feature for the bonus feat means that you can't use wands for Paladin spells. This isn't that big of a deal if you have other casters in your party and/or if you don't want to take Divine Defiance. But spells like Dispel Magic, Holy Sword, Knight's Move, Rhino Rush, Protection from Evil, Eagle's Splendor, etc, can be very useful.

Also note that Wild Runner uses a Swift Action to activate it's Primal Scream. So don't take more then one other feat that uses Swift or Immediate Actions.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-26, 01:30 PM
Since I would only be getting to 4th in PoF one 1st level spell seemed like less of a big deal then a free feat.

I've traded in Divine Vigor for Protection Devotion (I forgot I could burn Turn Undeads for them). I think that that feat will help my character in his support role which I'm kind of pushing since I'm the 5th party member.

That leaves me with Extra Smiting which is from my Holy Warrior, which means I get less of a choice here as it only gives a small list of feats to chose from.

Also The Wildrunner's Primal Scream is a free action. :smallwink:

Renegade Paladin
2010-04-26, 02:01 PM
Well first of all, you fall because the non-paladin of freedom class doesn't alter the Ex-Paladins section, the variant class rules state that anything not altered is as the original class, and that says you fall for not being lawful good. :smalltongue:

Person_Man
2010-04-26, 02:28 PM
Since I would only be getting to 4th in PoF one 1st level spell seemed like less of a big deal then a free feat.

It's not the spell that's important. It's the fact that Holy Warrior specifically gives up the automatic activation of spell trigger items for Paladin spells. For example, a wand of Rhino's Rush (Spell Compendium) costs 750 gp for 50 charges, and gives you double damage on a Charge attack. A wand of Protection from Evil costs the same amount and grants +2 AC and +2 Saves vs Evil enemies and protection from mind control and summoned monsters. A wand of Knight's Move (again in the Spell Comp) costs 4,500, and teleports you as a Swift Action into Flanking position (ie, helps you trigger Sneak Attack). A normal Paladin can use these wands without UMD. A Holy Warrior Paladin cannot. Again, it's not a game breaker to give it up. But you are giving up is potentially worth more then a feat.

Fisticuffs
2010-04-26, 06:20 PM
I can live with UMD if I have to, which I don't think will be such a big deal since it sounds like there will be two PC's that'll be multiclassing divine casters (Druid and Shugenja).

Edit: Thanks again Person_Man for putting up with my stubbornness. :smallbiggrin:

sambo.
2010-04-26, 06:36 PM
Well first of all, you fall because the non-paladin of freedom class doesn't alter the Ex-Paladins section, the variant class rules state that anything not altered is as the original class, and that says you fall for not being lawful good. :smalltongue:

err, Paladin of Freedom is Chaotic Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)and must remain so or lose all Paladin abilities.

they also have Bluff on their class skill list. so the little white lies that grease the wheels of social interactions in a DnD world are available to the PoF.

it's generally pretty flexible what a pally of freedom can get away with. at least, it's a hell of a lot more flexible than a standard pally, they don't have the waffle cone up their back passage that the standard paladin has.

Renegade Paladin
2010-04-27, 11:17 PM
err, Paladin of Freedom is Chaotic Good (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures)and must remain so or lose all Paladin abilities.

they also have Bluff on their class skill list. so the little white lies that grease the wheels of social interactions in a DnD world are available to the PoF.

it's generally pretty flexible what a pally of freedom can get away with. at least, it's a hell of a lot more flexible than a standard pally, they don't have the waffle cone up their back passage that the standard paladin has.
Yes, I know. The class is by RAW literally unworkable, because it says in one place that it must be chaotic good and in another that it must be lawful. Here's why. It says at the top:
The paladin of freedom has all the standard paladin class features, except as noted below.
And this section from the actual paladin is not noted below:
Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladinís mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Check and mate. :smalltongue:

sambo.
2010-04-27, 11:31 PM
The points in Str are generally better than in Dex if you're not doing a lot of sneaking around in the shadows. IIRC Paladins (Even one's of Freedom) aren't allowed to use underhanded tactics like that.

there's nothing wrong with a Paladin (even an LG Paladin, let alone a CG one)trying to get a tactical advantage though "underhanded" tactics while battling Evil.

so long as he's furthering the Cause Of <Insert Deity Of Choice Here>, he's generally fine.

people seem to get something of the wrong idea about Paladins. just because they are "honourable", doesn't mean they are stupid.

perhaps it comes from the old 1ed days of the Cavalier who had to immediately charge the strongest enemy in sight.

hamishspence
2010-04-29, 03:59 AM
Check and mate. :smalltongue:

It says any class features not mentioned are the same.

Ex-Paladins is not listed under Class Features in the PHB- it is a separate section.

Ecalsneerg
2010-04-29, 04:29 AM
Saying "Yes, you can be a Paladin of Freedom... NOW YOU FALL! MWAHAHAHAHA" is pretty much the same as saying "Yes, players, please smash my face in with the PHB"

Fisticuffs
2010-04-29, 11:38 AM
Unearthed Arcana:

Code of Conduct: A paladin of freedom must be of chaotic good alignment and loses all class abilities if he ever willingly commits an evil act. Additionally, a paladin of freedom's code requires that he respect individual liberty, help those in need(provided they do not use the help for lawful or evil ends), and punish those who threaten or curtail personal liberty.


Book of Exalted Deeds:

The use of sneak attacks is no more evil than the use of a bull rush or trampling maneuver: when engaged in a life-or-death struggle against the forces of evil, use tactics that help ensure your victory.

I can't find anywhere that says I can't fight dirty or lie my head off as long as neither is used for evil means.

hamishspence
2010-04-29, 12:34 PM
An element of "fighting dirty" is fine for even LG paladins:

Defenders of the Faith:


Refusing to lie, cheat, or use poison doesn't limit you and your allies to frontal assaults in broad daylight, either. You are a trained warrior. Set up an attack from an unexpected direction, lure opponents onto unfavorable ground, create flanking opportunities. Be prepared to look at the tactical situation, and be sure to ask your companions for their suggestions, they might surprise you.

That combined with PRCs that advance both paladin abilities and rogue sneak attacks (such as the Shadowbane Inquisitor) and in general, I wouldn't worry about the issue of underhanded, but not actually evil, tactics.


BoVD has a "lying is not automatically evil but very risky" statement.

And BoED used lying in its "Is it acceptable to commit a small evil act to prevent a lareg catastrophe?" example.

I'd personally stick to "not evil but risky" though- a CG character, especially one strongly devoted to Good, should be wary of telling ouright lies. That doesn't mean they can't tell them- but they should be careful nontheless.

Cogidubnus
2010-04-29, 01:51 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0215.html

Sneaky? Yes. Lying? No. Even LG Paladins can decieve. As for CG ones, I'd say they can certainly use Bluff, so long as they don't lie to the good guys (which a neutral character might do so as to, say, keep a magic item).