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View Full Version : Orc Double Axe vs. Greataxe [3.5]



Scarey Nerd
2010-04-20, 03:38 PM
OK people, here's the situation: I'm playing a Half-Orc Barbarian, and am trying to decide on the merits between the two titled weapons. I'm perfectly willing to spend the two feats necessary to use an orc double axe (Two Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency), but am still not sure if it's worth it. On the one hand, it can do two d8's in a full round action, making it better than a greataxe, but if not done in a full round then its only a d8, therefore worse.

Thoughts?

Dr.Epic
2010-04-20, 03:39 PM
I'm perfectly willing to spend the two feats necessary to use an orc double axe (Two Weapon Fighting and Exotic Weapon Proficiency), but am still not sure if it's worth it.

I thought as a (half)orc you're proficient with it for free?

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-20, 03:40 PM
Unfortunately no, neither Half-Orcs OR normal Orcs get the proficiency, even when Dwarves get waraxes and urgroshes and Gnomes get hooked hammers.

Racial prejudice...

Zach J.
2010-04-20, 03:41 PM
I think you'll end up doing more damage with a Greataxe and Power Attack than with a Double Axe.

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-20, 03:43 PM
I think you'll end up doing more damage with a Greataxe and Power Attack than with a Double Axe.

I will be getting power attack as well as whichever weapon I get, no matter what (We have a running joke related to Great Cleave that I want to fulfil)

Critical
2010-04-20, 03:44 PM
None. Get Glaive or Guisarme.

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-20, 03:46 PM
None. Get Glaive or Guisarme.

I sincerely hope you were being fecicious, seeing as both of them are worse than a greataxe, AND a double axe :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Edit: I guess they DO have reach, but still...

Zach J.
2010-04-20, 03:47 PM
I will be getting power attack as well as whichever weapon I get, no matter what (We have a running joke related to Great Cleave that I want to fulfil)

Hmm, well I won't lie. I like the Orc Double Axe a lot. But if you're using it with two-weapon fighting and power attack you're a lot less likely to hit than if you're just using the greataxe with power attack. In the end it's up to you, but if you're solely concerned about damage I'd stick with the greataxe.

Lyndworm
2010-04-20, 03:47 PM
I think there's a feat in C. Warrior (or somesuch book) that makes you proficient in any weapon that has a part of your races name in it. Let me see if I can find it...

Critical
2010-04-20, 03:49 PM
I sincerely hope you were being fecicious, seeing as both of them are worse than a greataxe, AND a double axe :smalltongue::smalltongue:

Edit: I guess they DO have reach, but still...

Worse? Let me prove you wrong. When someone with a Greataxe or Double Axe comes up to you, you get an AoO with a Power Attack...

Do the math.

HunterOfJello
2010-04-20, 03:50 PM
I think there's a feat in C. Warrior (or somesuch book) that makes you proficient in any weapon that has a part of your races name in it. Let me see if I can find it...

it's in each of the races books. you'd get proficiency with all weapons that have the word "orc" in them, there are probably a handful.


*edit*

actually now that i look, that's the only Orc weapon i see. there are Orc-only enchantments for weapons however. you'd have access to those.

it seems the racial weapons were implemented after the book orcs appeared in (races of destiny)

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-20, 03:50 PM
Worse? Let me prove you wrong. When someone with a Greataxe or Double Axe comes up to you, you get an AoO with a Power Attack...

Do the math.

A fair point, seeing as I'm probably going to get Combat Reflexes

HunterOfJello
2010-04-20, 03:56 PM
there's always the long axe


and the Duom doesn't require a feat to use. if your DM will let you use Dragon material then that's your easiest grab

Lyndworm
2010-04-20, 04:41 PM
it's in each of the races books. you'd get proficiency with all weapons that have the word "orc" in them, there are probably a handful.


*edit*

actually now that i look, that's the only Orc weapon i see. there are Orc-only enchantments for weapons however. you'd have access to those.

it seems the racial weapons were implemented after the book orcs appeared in (races of destiny)
I want to say that there's another Orc weapon or two somewhere, probably Dragon...

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-20, 04:42 PM
That racial proficiency feat will also get you the orc shotput, which is a pretty decent throwing weapon.

Still, I'd go for a reach weapon, or if it must be one of these two, the greataxe.

Endarire
2010-04-20, 04:49 PM
A feat for a proficiency is almost never worth it.

A halberd/lance/glaive/polearm is awesome. The reach makes this so worthwhile, and Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) is why. Carry a backup weapon (armor spikes, a gauntlet, and a braid blade or few) to smack foes who get too close.

Seffbasilisk
2010-04-20, 04:52 PM
Lucerne Hammer. 2d4 crit x4. Reach Weapon. Pack a dagger, and you have all three damage types represented. Swords are pretty common even if you don't pack one.

tyckspoon
2010-04-20, 05:00 PM
Concurring with 'get a reach weapon', but of the two you posted the greataxe is absolutely better. There's quite a few reasons why:
No feat tax just to use it.
No additional stat requirement (TWF, and especially the other TWF feats, require a significant Dex investment that you really don't have much reason to make other than qualifying for TWF.)
No inherent hit penalty.
Better damage scaling.

A single greataxe hit will do d12+ 1.5xStrMod; that's average 6.5 plus.. well, you haven't mentioned your stats, but you're a +Strength race Barbarian, so 18 would be quite reasonable. +6 damage, and you can do it whenever you hit somebody, whether or not you got a chance for a Full Attack. So 12-13 damage per hit, normally.

A single Double Axe attack will do d8+Str; 4.5+4. 8-9 damage, significantly worse on a standard attack. A Full Attack will be at -2/-2, dealing d8+Str/d8+ .5xStr. Advantage over the single Greataxe attack: 2-3 points of damage, for which you had the privilege of paying 2 feats and making yourself dependent on Full Attacks from level.. well, 3, if you're not using Flaws. This is incidentally an amount of damage you could make up with the Greataxe by taking Power Attack, feeding 1 point of BAB into it, and still be attacking with a better bonus than the Double Axe.

CrimsonTear72
2010-04-20, 05:21 PM
there's always the long axe


and the Duom doesn't require a feat to use. if your DM will let you use Dragon material then that's your easiest grab

I agree w/ the long axe, it counts as a greataxe for things like weapon focus and you can have the reach you want. And I'm all for seeing Half-/orcs with axes. :)

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-21, 12:24 AM
A single greataxe hit will do d12+ 1.5xStrMod; that's average 6.5 plus.. well, you haven't mentioned your stats, but you're a +Strength race Barbarian, so 18 would be quite reasonable. +6 damage, and you can do it whenever you hit somebody, whether or not you got a chance for a Full Attack. So 12-13 damage per hit, normally.


Good point, perhaps it would help to post my stats:

Str 17
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 12

Pluto
2010-04-21, 12:30 AM
Almost any reach weapon is better, no question.
And the Greataxe is the better of your two options.

But I would use the Double Axe. Just because it's ridiculous. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-04-21, 12:45 AM
Almost any reach weapon is better, no question.
And the Greataxe is the better of your two options.

But I would use the Double Axe. Just because it's ridiculous. :smalltongue:
If we're talking ridiculous weapons, we need to talk Gyrspike. :smallamused:

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-21, 12:50 AM
You know, I always found the double weapons extremely flavorful and cool. But, I could never find a way to make them work, crunch-wise, better, or at least as good as a simple greatsword or greataxe. Too bad... what a waste of fine flavor.

Pluto
2010-04-21, 12:52 AM
If we're talking ridiculous weapons, we need to talk Gyrspike. :smallamused:

I can't believe I forgot about the gyrspike!

Now I'm kind of tempted to get a multi-armed 3.0 Exotic Weapons Master to simultaneously wield one of those, a Dire flail, one of those braid-blades and the Giant Antler Stick from Frostburn.

It would be awesome. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-04-21, 12:57 AM
I can't believe I forgot about the gyrspike!

Now I'm kind of tempted to get a multi-armed 3.0 Exotic Weapons Master to simultaneously wield one of those, a Dire flail, one of those braid-blades and the Giant Antler Stick from Frostburn.

It would be awesome. :smalltongue:
A Sugliin, a Dire Flail, a Gyrspike, and NI Braid Blades (there's no limit, IIRC). Now, this does require you have six arms, but hey, whatever, right? :smallamused:

BTW, Lin, you just play a TWF character who uses a double weapon. Most are perfectly functional, assuming you use them as two weapons, not like a greatsword. :smallwink:

Ravens_cry
2010-04-21, 01:36 AM
You know, I always found the double weapons extremely flavorful and cool. But, I could never find a way to make them work, crunch-wise, better, or at least as good as a simple greatsword or greataxe. Too bad... what a waste of fine flavor.
Remember, you are required to zhooming noises when using a brilliant energy double sword. :smalltongue:

arguskos
2010-04-21, 01:37 AM
Remember, you are required to zhooming noises when using a brilliant energy double sword. :smalltongue:
And to cry as you get dominated by CR 1/3 skeletons. :smalltongue:

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-21, 01:41 AM
Remember, you are required to zhooming noises when using a brilliant energy double sword. :smalltongue:This argument just might tip the scales back in the double-weapon's favor. But only just.:smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-04-21, 02:06 AM
You know, I always found the double weapons extremely flavorful and cool. But, I could never find a way to make them work, crunch-wise, better, or at least as good as a simple greatsword or greataxe. Too bad... what a waste of fine flavor.

You rang?

Behold, optimized Urgrosh usage! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864142/Urgosh_Optimization?post_id=338164714#338164714)

The trick is to only use one end of the weapon at a time, as a 2handed weapon. Then, you qualify for Exotic Weapon Master's Flurry of Strikes trick. Nothing says you have to TWF in order to use Flurry of Strikes. Its a free attack at -2 on all your attacks. Combine with Whirling Frenzy and Haste to make 4 attacks at your highest attack bonus. Sure, your iteratives might miss, but your primary 4 attacks are better off than normal iteratives.

Magnor Criol
2010-04-21, 02:12 AM
I can't believe I forgot about the gyrspike!

Now I'm kind of tempted to get a multi-armed 3.0 Exotic Weapons Master to simultaneously wield one of those, a Dire flail, one of those braid-blades and the Giant Antler Stick from Frostburn.

It would be awesome. :smalltongue:

"I choose option d.) All of the above." (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60864).

-E- Note: Oldthread is ooollllllldddd. Just to help prevent necromancy. :smallwink:

Farlion
2010-04-21, 02:20 AM
There's still the medium version of the Goliath Greathammer 1d12 x4(!!!).

It requires exotic weapon proficiency. Or go for the really big hammer and take monkey grip as well.

Large Goliath Greathammer 3d6 x4


Rage on!

Cheers,
Farlion

joe
2010-04-21, 10:12 AM
If you take the Racial Weapon Proficiency, you also get proficiency in the orc shotput, which is the only weapon that crits on 19-20/x3! ^_^

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-21, 10:33 AM
I think there's a feat in C. Warrior (or somesuch book) that makes you proficient in any weapon that has a part of your races name in it. Let me see if I can find it...

Improved Weapon Familiarity. One should carefully look for other orchish weapons.. first coming in my mind, is the quite good Shotput from A&EG.



Now I'm kind of tempted to get a multi-armed 3.0 Exotic Weapons Master to simultaneously wield one of those, a Dire flail, one of those braid-blades and the Giant Antler Stick from Frostburn.


I'd simply houserule that such character would accidentally kill himslef at the first full attack. No save.

paddyfool
2010-04-21, 10:37 AM
I'd suggest you think about how your ideal axe would look like, and stat as a great axe.

But then, double-axe doesn't do it for me. The limitations on the swings you can imagine on it because you'd slice yourself open with the other end make it kind of meh...

Incidentally, if you want to be a big fighter type with an axe, have you considered going the full Orc rather than the watered-down half-breed? Also, what kind of melee monster were you considering? If you go Psychic Warrior and take the Enlargement power you'll give yourself reach on tap, not to mention better intimidate, bull rush, trip, grapple etc. and a bigger axe. (This one would actually work better with a half-orc, for reasons of Wis).

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-22, 12:49 AM
I'd suggest you think about how your ideal axe would look like, and stat as a great axe.

But then, double-axe doesn't do it for me. The limitations on the swings you can imagine on it because you'd slice yourself open with the other end make it kind of meh...

Incidentally, if you want to be a big fighter type with an axe, have you considered going the full Orc rather than the watered-down half-breed? Also, what kind of melee monster were you considering? If you go Psychic Warrior and take the Enlargement power you'll give yourself reach on tap, not to mention better intimidate, bull rush, trip, grapple etc. and a bigger axe. (This one would actually work better with a half-orc, for reasons of Wis).

Unfortunately, we play core 3.5, basically just going straight from the books and the odd houserule, otherwise I would have been a full-orc (Not great for my own safety though, my DM's campaign has a huge amount of elves waging war against Orcs :S)

I'm tempted to just draw a badass greataxe and use those stats after everyone's comments :smallsmile: Thank you everyone for your help :smallbiggrin:

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 12:51 AM
Unfortunately, we play core 3.5, basically just going straight from the books and the odd houserule, otherwise I would have been a full-orc (Not great for my own safety though, my DM's campaign has a huge amount of elves waging war against Orcs :S)

Er, isn't the Monster Manual core?

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-22, 12:58 AM
Yes, obviously, what I mean is the PCs have to be one of the seven races as listed in the PHB, and not take them from the "As character" bits in the MM.

At least, until we get our Evil DM, then its no holds barred... :smallbiggrin:

Flail_master
2010-04-22, 02:04 PM
Yes, obviously, what I mean is the PCs have to be one of the seven races as listed in the PHB, and not take them from the "As character" bits in the MM.

At least, until we get our Evil DM, then its no holds barred... :smallbiggrin:

lol i look forward to the craziness! :smallbiggrin:

Scarey Nerd
2010-04-22, 02:06 PM
lol i look forward to the craziness! :smallbiggrin:

Indupitably Flail Master. Indupitably.

Lin Bayaseda
2010-04-22, 02:17 PM
You rang?

Behold, optimized Urgrosh usage! (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19864142/Urgosh_Optimization?post_id=338164714#338164714)

The trick is to only use one end of the weapon at a time, as a 2handed weapon. Then, you qualify for Exotic Weapon Master's Flurry of Strikes trick. Nothing says you have to TWF in order to use Flurry of Strikes. Its a free attack at -2 on all your attacks. Combine with Whirling Frenzy and Haste to make 4 attacks at your highest attack bonus. Sure, your iteratives might miss, but your primary 4 attacks are better off than normal iteratives.
You know, I'm not going to say this build isn't impressive. Because it is. Very impressive. For a melee character. But, hey, he's level 20. Which is a stage of the game when full-casters are so ahead of melee characters that it's not even funny.
If possible, I would really like to see a build, that utilizes a double-weapon to good effect on a level when non-casters are not yet irrelevant. I dunno, maybe level 3. Or 7. Or 9 at the most. Do you have somesuch?

Keld Denar
2010-04-22, 02:36 PM
Well, given that the earliest you can squeeze into EWM is ECL7 (given the +6 BAB req), you could build from there. The reason I give a level by level breakdown is so that you can play it from 1 to 20. Its a little weak at 1st level due to the ranger level, but thats has to be there to fit in the skill prereqs. From there, 2 levels of fighter and 2 levels of barb are pretty frontloaded, which brings your power level up a bit. That brings you to level 5 with full BAB, most of the feats to make your tricks work, and a decent pool of HP. Then you jump into Deepwarden at 6, thats pretty much a no-brainer. THEN, you have to make kinda a tough decision. Do you want to be more offensive and take your 2 levels of EWM now, or do you want to pick up the awesome Stonewarden ability to add your Con to your AC, being more defensive. I have Deepwarden 2 first, because I think that adds a lot to your toughness at a level where your armor starts to sag behind.

The other funky thing is that with the Dwarf Fighter racial sub, you get AXE focus. This lets you actually use a Greataxe up until you take your first level of EWM. Urgrosh axe head is only 1d8, which doesn't matter much at the higher levels, but at the low levels, the difference between the 1d8 of the Urgrosh and the 1d12 of the Greataxe is much more pronounced. Since you are NEVER using both heads of the Urgrosh at the same time, it really doesn't matter which weapon you use up to that point. The whole beauty of the Urgrosh is using it to cherry pick Flurry of Strikes and Uncanny Blow from EWM that push it SO far ahead of just about any melee weapon its silly. Until you take those levels, though, you'd be better off with something more practical.

Also, I was building a lot of that from memory, and I thought that EWM required Weapon Spec to get in, which it doesn't, and thats the primary reason it sits where it does in the build, due to the FREE Weapon Spec feat from Pious Templar. Since EWM DOESN'T require Weapon Spec to get in, it can be pushed up in the build, which it should be, althought whether or not its worth bumping back the Stonewarden ability is up to the individual user.

So...yea, TL;DR, no. The whole reason to use an Urgrosh, or any exotic double weapon (as a single 2handed weapon) is to take advantage of the EWM class, and thus there is no way to make it better than a normal weapon before ECL7 at the earliest. Sorry.

There, changed the build around slightly.

Dwarf 28 PB Str 16, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
Final stats with items Str 26 (30 rage), Dex 10, Con 24, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 6
1 Ranger1 Track, Endurance Favored Enemy: Arcanists (get 4 ranks in prereq skills, 2 ranks Kn:Relig xclass)
2 Dwarf Fighter1 Axe Focus (5th rank in Climb + Jump)
3 Fighter2 Hold the Line, Power Attack (5th rank Kn: Dung xclass)
4 Barbarian1 Spirit Lion Totem (5th rank in Survival class + 3 Craft:Weapon)
5 Barbarian2 Uncanny Dodge (3rd + 4th rank Kn:Relig xclass)
6 Deepwarden1 Track again... True Believer (Kn:Arc 3 ranks)
7 Deepwarden2 Stonewarden (Kn:Arc 4th rank xclass Spellcraft 2 ranks xclass)
8 Exotic Weapon Master1 Flurry of Strikes Trick (Spellcraft 3rd rank xclass)
9 Exotic Weapon Master2 Uncanny Blow Trick (Spellcraft 4th rank xclass) Leap Attack
10 Pious Templar1 Mettle
11 Pious Templar2
12 Pious Templar3 Weapon Spec:Urgrosh Improved Init
13 Pious Templar4 Melee Weapon Mastery: Slashing
14 Occult Slayer1
15 Occult Slayer2 Slashing Fury
16 Occult Slayer3
17 Occult Slayer4
18 Occult Slayer5 Battle Blessing
19 Pious Templar5
20 Pious Templar6

urbanpirate
2010-04-22, 07:27 PM
I want to say that there's another Orc weapon or two somewhere, probably Dragon...

shotput but i forget the book