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Geiger Counter
2010-04-20, 05:49 PM
Okay first where is a good place to start an eberron campaign?

Second I don't really care for the stats of half races, I don't want them to be as numerous and homogeneous as they are. If a player wants to be say a halfelf or a halforc I'll just let him pick and choose which trains from each parent he wants. The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?

The whole concept behind the mark of shadow is dumb. the whole point of dragon marks is that they give you an edge in your field that makes it difficult for mundane humanoids to compete. The mark of shadow does not do this for entertainment. Does anyone know a good series of dragon marks that would give an edge in entertainment?

Deth Muncher
2010-04-20, 05:51 PM
Okay first where is a good place to start an eberron campaign?

Second I don't really care for the stats of half races, I don't want them to be as numerous and homogeneous as they are. If a player wants to be say a halfelf or a halforc I'll just let him pick and choose which trains from each parent he wants. The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?

The whole concept behind the mark of shadow is dumb. the whole point of dragon marks is that they give you an edge in your field that makes it difficult for mundane humanoids to compete. The mark of shadow does not do this for entertainment. Does anyone know a good series of dragon marks that would give an edge in entertainment?

Sharn or Stormreach.

Sharn - Lots of noir-style things can be done, and you can go explore the Lands of Man and Monsters.

Stormreach - Its in Xendrik, and literally runs like the world of Pokemon - dungeons next to places to heal, as the city is littered with ruins.

Edge
2010-04-20, 05:55 PM
The whole concept behind the mark of shadow is dumb. the whole point of dragon marks is that they give you an edge in your field that makes it difficult for mundane humanoids to compete. The mark of shadow does not do this for entertainment. Does anyone know a good series of dragon marks that would give an edge in entertainment?

The two Houses with the Mark of Shadow, Phiarlan and Thuranni, do make good use of the Mark. Those entertainment guilds or whatever? Just a front. Phiarlan and Thuranni are shadow brokers and espionage for hire, are often end up working at cross-purposes.

Unless this is for 4e and they changed that for the new setting.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-04-20, 06:00 PM
House Phiarlan and Thuranni indeed use their marks power to good effect, as spies, assassins, and shadow agents. The entertainment and artisans guilds are as was previously mentioned, a front.

The 'half-orc' house, Tharashk, is actually made of half-orcs and humans. Half-orcs only have that dragonmark thanks to their human blood; full blooded orcs don't have dragonmarks.

As for the half-elf houses, Medani could be folded into Phiarlan pretty easily, and Lyrandar could be meshed into House Orien easily as well. Of course, in Eberron, half-elves are pretty much their own unique race that mostly breeds among themselves. They're more common than in most settings, and lack the typical wandering, ostracized, lonely, misunderstood element half-elves have in other worlds.

NeoVid
2010-04-20, 07:04 PM
The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?


This one could be a problem, mainly since half-elves are much more common and influential than pure elves in Eberron. This would basically put half-elves in the position they're in in every other setting, but that might be what you want.

Amphetryon
2010-04-20, 07:11 PM
I'm going to throw a vote for Thrane. It's got an obvious quasi-medieval Catholic Rome feel to it that can appeal both to those who like a more historically-grounded feel to their games, and those who are fans of anime (Trinity Blood, anyone?).

Coidzor
2010-04-20, 07:36 PM
Second I don't really care for the stats of half races, I don't want them to be as numerous and homogeneous as they are. If a player wants to be say a halfelf or a halforc I'll just let him pick and choose which trains from each parent he wants. The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?

Well, other than the fact that drow don't occur on Khorvaire, not really. You'd have to refluff the drow to have them interacting in the game of Houses.

Unless you're going to remove the limit on dragonmarks to Khorvaire.

MCerberus
2010-04-20, 07:37 PM
Sharn is a fun location to start from because you can find adventure easily in the city, in the country around it, or have access to transport to a long list of regions.

The influence of the Twelve, among other things, means that a wide variety of patrons (which are a key mechanic/hook as stated by the ECS) can ship off your characters.

From Sharn you can take a train and be fighting the Emerald Claw in a few days, or be clandestinely snuck into the Mournland via airship to do some scavenging and fight Corpse Crabs.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-20, 08:23 PM
The Drow they were basically hired to be like what those guys from inglorious bastards were. Assassin/guerilla fighters morale breakers for breland and cyre. The rich guy that was their handler managed to relocate several tribes to Khorvaire during the last war. When they had their first young in Khorvaire they were born with the mark of shadow making them the most recent DMH. I would appreciate anyone that wants to help me flesh this out.

Inyssius Tor
2010-04-20, 08:29 PM
The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?

It would destroy the cultures of both House Tharashk and House Lyrandar, and dilute the thematic unity of Eberron's elves.

If you don't like Houses Tharashk and Lyrandar (understandable if you really don't like half-breed races, I suppose), that's fine, but personally I quite like the themes and cultural dynamics of those Houses and the way they interact with the other Houses, the other races, and the multifarious governments of Khorvaire.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-20, 08:37 PM
It would destroy the cultures of both House Tharashk and House Lyrandar, and dilute the thematic unity of Eberron's elves.

If you don't like Houses Tharashk and Lyrandar (understandable if you really don't like half-breed races, I suppose), that's fine, but personally I quite like the themes and cultural dynamics of those Houses and the way they interact with the other Houses, the other races, and the multifarious governments of Khorvaire.

Can you please explain yourself, I see virtually no difference between either orcs or half orcs having their own house. Also if orc/humans and elf/humans are so common why aren't other potential combinations?

AslanCross
2010-04-20, 08:45 PM
Okay first where is a good place to start an eberron campaign?

Sharn: It's got everything.

Stormreach: Close enough to ruins for exploration, has its own levels of intrigue.

Let me just provide the flip side--bad places to start the campaign:
1. The Mournland
2. The Demon Wastes
3. Argonnessen
4. Khyber
5. Communist Riedra

All five have a healthy mix of nasty environments, powerful enemies, and are very, very far from safety.

Unless you want your PCs to die in short order.



Second I don't really care for the stats of half races, I don't want them to be as numerous and homogeneous as they are. If a player wants to be say a halfelf or a halforc I'll just let him pick and choose which trains from each parent he wants. The half orc and half elf houses are instead given to pure orcs and elves respectively and I'm giving the mark of shadow to the drow. Is there anything I need to worry about from doing this?

It's really up to you; you're the DM. The downside here is that the orcs are supposed to be rather rare (especially in their original druidic culture) as opposed to the half-orcs who are more or less integrated into Khorvaire's cosmopolitan society. Elves, on the other hand, are far more common in Eberron than in other settings, and can be seen in either isolated cultures (Aerenal and Valenar) or integrated into human society. As such it's understandable to have a lot of half elves running around.

As for the drow--sure, they fit the bill, but the drow are concentrated on Xen'Drik. They don't like other races and do not want to abandon the home they pried from the giants' hands. You could probably justify them wanting to put up a corporation on Khorvaire, somehow, but of all the elf cultures they're the least likely to leave their homeland.


The whole concept behind the mark of shadow is dumb. the whole point of dragon marks is that they give you an edge in your field that makes it difficult for mundane humanoids to compete. The mark of shadow does not do this for entertainment. Does anyone know a good series of dragon marks that would give an edge in entertainment?

The edge that the Shadow houses have over mundane entertainers is that they're spies, and good ones at that. They have the funding and skill (ie: class levels) to get into deep cover situations and get the info they need, and then get out.

The whole entertainment thing is a front. If you want to hire a bard, he's likely been bought out by Phiarlan already. If you're lucky he's not spying on you. If you're unlucky, he's a high-level dragonmarked Phiarlan agent who studies your mansion's interior as he discusses the contract.

The Dragonmarked Houses are not just "guys with innate powers." They're "guys with innate powers and lots of money." The dragonmarks give an advantage, sure, but if they spot a guy who has potential, even if he doesn't have a dragonmark, it's easy enough for them to buy him out/eliminate him. (It's possible to be a member of a dragonmarked house without blood relations or a dragonmark---that's why they have the Favored in House feat.)

Phiarlan and Thuranni have different specialties, btw--Phiarlan is entertainment, Thuranni is artisanship.

Inyssius Tor
2010-04-20, 08:55 PM
Can you please explain yourself, I see virtually no difference between either orcs or half orcs having their own house.

By and large, orcs are xenophobic. They keep to themselves. The only reason the ones in the Shadow Marches interact with outsiders is because their 'marked half-orc relatives are dragging them into the limelight; there's this whole interplay between the old fundamentalist orcs with their ties to the Gatekeepers and the half-orcs and the humans of the Shadow Marches and the rest of Khorvaire, and that whole thing just goes away when the half-orcs do.


Also if orc/humans and elf/humans are so common why aren't other potential combinations?

That's an entirely unrelated question. But I certainly could see any number of human-dwarf hybrids in the Mror Holds and parts of the Eldeen Reaches, the occasional gnome-halfling hybrid in Talenta, or the occasional Innsmouth strain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth) in any coastal area. I can't think of many others that immediately spring to mind, but if you can I'd be interested in talking about those.

AslanCross
2010-04-20, 09:01 PM
Also if orc/humans and elf/humans are so common why aren't other potential combinations?

It would be better to ask WOTC and heck, even TSR that question. Half-elves and Half-orcs have been the only common half-breeds for a long time.

I kind of understand why they're not in the PHB, at least--accounting for every single half-breed out there both depletes book space and strains credulity. ("Mommy, my classmate's daddy is an ogre and his mommy is a halfling. Why?") That's why the half-fiend, half-celestial and half-dragon are templates, not races.

If you really want to support other racial combinations, I think the Book of Erotic Fantasy has support for that. :smalleek:

iamstillwater
2010-04-20, 09:04 PM
I want a book of erotic fantasy bad.

*ehem*

Back on track: Sharn for starting adventures! :D

Geiger Counter
2010-04-20, 09:05 PM
I happen to like how eberron handles half dragons. Sure you can play one, however if a dragon actually meets you they will treat you as an abomination and kill you, which is how I like to handle half races.

Deth Muncher
2010-04-20, 09:07 PM
I happen to like how eberron handles half dragons. Sure you can play one, however if a dragon actually meets you they will treat you as an abomination and kill you, which is how I like to handle half races.

I have a player who is one of those elf things that can trade druid stuff for dragonshaping and such. When he first did it, I freaked out and had him abducted. I then changed it to the heads of the city yelling at him for being stupid.

Random NPC
2010-04-20, 11:58 PM
I happen to like how eberron handles half dragons. Sure you can play one, however if a dragon actually meets you they will treat you as an abomination and kill you, which is how I like to handle half races.

Except that in Eberron, they are not. The only abominations are half-dragons and that's it.

Half-Elves are perhaps the biggest players in Khorvaire(after humans). They call themselves the Khorovar, the children of Khorvaire. They are no longer a mix of humans and elves. They are a proud race who can claim that they were BORN when the Five Nations were BORN. They only breed among OTHER Half-Elves. They are the movers and shakers of a lot of things. Right now they have the most advanced form of transportation and the means to improve the economy of any nation they might want to favor (controling thunder and rainwater is powerful for agriculture based economy like most in Eberron).

Half-Orcs are the highest form of purity for the Gatekeeper druids. Gatekeepers are there to protect Eberron from hostile alien beings. They are Eco-Druids able to kick ass. Half-Orcs are the latest thing as they are the fusion of Human (the future) and Orc (the past). Their importance is religiously important in the Shadow Marshes.

Kol Korran
2010-04-21, 06:13 AM
The Drow they were basically hired to be like what those guys from inglorious bastards were. Assassin/guerilla fighters morale breakers for breland and cyre. The rich guy that was their handler managed to relocate several tribes to Khorvaire during the last war. When they had their first young in Khorvaire they were born with the mark of shadow making them the most recent DMH. I would appreciate anyone that wants to help me flesh this out.

the problem with that is that they don't actually form a dragonmarked house. as have been mentioned, a dragonmark house is far more than just magical tattoos- it's political and economical power and influence, and resources far wider and more powerful than just the common dragonmarked.

you'll be losing the houses of shadow effectively, though you can have Phiarlan and Thuranni just be elven houses who focus on entertainment, information brokering and espionage. however, that would kind of lose the point of changning house anyway, won't it?

why not keep the houses of shadow as they are? so you add two houses for the elven race, so what? that just means more subterfuge amongst them. heck, human have 4 houses (5 if you count Tharashk), the elves are supposed to be quite numerous and influential, let them have 2 more houses.

i'd suggest to live the drow as they are- they have a unique enough culture, that is deeply tied to their continenet, to drive them away from it. but you're the DM, so do as you wish.

hope this helped,
Kol.

(oh, and i think that Grey wall in Droaam is a blast of a place to start a campaign)

Prime32
2010-04-21, 07:01 AM
Except that in Eberron, they are not. The only abominations are half-dragons and that's it.

Half-Elves are perhaps the biggest players in Khorvaire(after humans). They call themselves the Khorovar, the children of Khorvaire. They are no longer a mix of humans and elves. They are a proud race who can claim that they were BORN when the Five Nations were BORN. They only breed among OTHER Half-Elves. They are the movers and shakers of a lot of things. Right now they have the most advanced form of transportation and the means to improve the economy of any nation they might want to favor (controling thunder and rainwater is powerful for agriculture based economy like most in Eberron).

Half-Orcs are the highest form of purity for the Gatekeeper druids. Gatekeepers are there to protect Eberron from hostile alien beings. They are Eco-Druids able to kick ass. Half-Orcs are the latest thing as they are the fusion of Human (the future) and Orc (the past). Their importance is religiously important in the Shadow Marshes.
Not only that, but half-elves have been breeding with each other for so long that it is possible to tell the difference between a first-generation half-elf and a member of an established half-elf family (there are differences in stuff like eye colours). They're basically an independent race now.

Draxar
2010-04-21, 09:28 AM
The whole concept behind the mark of shadow is dumb. the whole point of dragon marks is that they give you an edge in your field that makes it difficult for mundane humanoids to compete. The mark of shadow does not do this for entertainment. Does anyone know a good series of dragon marks that would give an edge in entertainment?

On top of what everyone else has said about their key focus being spying, I also disagree with your statement here. A lot of the Shadow Mark stuff is good for entertainment, particularly the lower level stuff:


Darkness
Disguise Self
Minor Image
Shadow Conjuration
Blindsight
Shadow Form

Varying levels of it, but every one of the above could be easily used in entertainment to improve a performance.

Prime32
2010-04-21, 09:34 AM
On top of what everyone else has said about their key focus being spying, I also disagree with your statement here. A lot of the Shadow Mark stuff is good for entertainment, particularly the lower level stuff:


Darkness
Disguise Self
Minor Image
Shadow Conjuration
Blindsight
Shadow Form

Varying levels of it, but every one of the above could be easily used in entertainment to improve a performance.Illusion is limited only by the caster's imagination, and can easily create otherwise impossible efects. Think of it as the mago-theatrical equivalent of CG.

Disguise self means that you can have a play about a king and have the actor look like the king. There are plenty of other forms of "entertainment" (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShapeshiftingSquick) where it could be used. :smallamused:

Darkness lets you perform night scenes at day.

Shadow conjuration lets you play the part of a wizard who is required to cast spells on stage.

Blindsight could be used... I dunno, if an actor has to do something while his head is covered? Maybe kuroko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuroko)?

MCerberus
2010-04-21, 09:44 AM
I happen to like how eberron handles half dragons. Sure you can play one, however if a dragon actually meets you they will treat you as an abomination and kill you, which is how I like to handle half races.

Half-Dragons aren't really accepted (read: killed on sight) in Eberron. If I remember correctly, the most important half-dragon in the campaign was turned into a lich so she could survive the massive onslaught of murder brought down on her house from both dragons and elves for creating an abomination. The end result: the Mark of Death being wiped clean off the planet and Vol.

If half-dragons are involved, it's really best to keep them away from the more civilized regions, and Vol herself. Who knows what kind of mad science stuff she'd be up to if she found another.

Like the others have said, half-breeds of other varieties are fine and have their own cultures in Eberron. the best way of handling them if you don't want them prominent is to nudge your players away from playing them and minimizing exposure. Hell there are even some airship captains that aren't half-elf.

TricksyAndFalse
2010-04-21, 09:56 AM
I happen to like how eberron handles half dragons. Sure you can play one, however if a dragon actually meets you they will treat you as an abomination and kill you, which is how I like to handle half races.

I think that's probably fine in another setting, but Eberron is very cosmopolitan about race. One example is that people don't tend to kill 'monster' races on sight. Goblins, hobgoblins, and bugbears live and work alongside everyone else in Sharn, Stormreach, and other cities. Killing a medusa or even a mind flayer on the street is more likely to create a diplomatic incident and land you in very hot water than it is to earn you a reward. The average person is very open minded about race in Eberron, and persecuting half-human races as 'abominations' just doesn't fit the setting.

Dragon feelings toward mixing with other races is an obvious exception.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-21, 03:05 PM
I find the whole entertainment guild as a front for spies as ridiculous for several reasons. That sort of thing is tends to be illegal as well as bade for business. If you actually want people to know you are selling information then eventually it will become common knowledge that their organization is a spy network. And most importantly hypothetically if an organization used it's funds from being a spy network to make it the most successful in say the entertainment industry than wouldn't that be true of all other organizations. Basically way aren't all the other DMH spy fronts too if it's so profitable.

On Orcs and Drow, giving a race the the lack of a desire to interact with other creatures is the dumbest trait to give to any D&D race.

Mongoose87
2010-04-21, 03:17 PM
I find the whole entertainment guild as a front for spies as ridiculous for several reasons. That sort of thing is tends to be illegal as well as bade for business. If you actually want people to know you are selling information then eventually it will become common knowledge that their organization is a spy network. And most importantly hypothetically if an organization used it's funds from being a spy network to make it the most successful in say the entertainment industry than wouldn't that be true of all other organizations. Basically way aren't all the other DMH spy fronts too if it's so profitable.

Because not all of the Dragonmarks are particularly helpful for spying?



On Orcs and Drow, giving a race the the lack of a desire to interact with other creatures is the dumbest trait to give to any D&D race.

You've never heard of a xenophobic race? I mean, this is a lot easier than the old Drow, who not only didn't particularly care for other races, but slaughtered and enslaved them, too.

MCerberus
2010-04-21, 03:30 PM
I find the whole entertainment guild as a front for spies as ridiculous for several reasons. That sort of thing is tends to be illegal as well as bade for business. If you actually want people to know you are selling information then eventually it will become common knowledge that their organization is a spy network. And most importantly hypothetically if an organization used it's funds from being a spy network to make it the most successful in say the entertainment industry than wouldn't that be true of all other organizations. Basically way aren't all the other DMH spy fronts too if it's so profitable.


They are the best at it as well as having an entire culture of spying that goes with the house. People also do business with criminal organizations all the time. You can also safely assume that House Phiarlan agents would go under cover and pose as outsiders (especially non-marked ones). Controlling who your mark knows is a spy is a great ploy to blind them to the ones they don't know.

Sivis also does some of spywork, but that's mostly due to Gnome history being an endless string of backstabs.

Come to think of it, if you're shifting things around, you can give Handling to full-elves and the gnomes Shadow. That would make a potential Abhorrent able to hide himself and a world conquering manipulator with total command of information.

Greenish
2010-04-21, 04:17 PM
Hell there are even some airship captains that aren't half-elf.Are you sure about that? The bit of fluff about Windwright Captain PrC (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050803a&page=3) mentions that "the Lesser Mark of Storm is the only consistent means to effectively control an elemental-powered airship or wind galleon". I wouldn't want an expensive piece of equipment, such as an airship, to be piloted with someone with no consistent means of controlling it, even if I wasn't to be traveling onboard.

AslanCross
2010-04-21, 05:49 PM
On Orcs and Drow, giving a race the the lack of a desire to interact with other creatures is the dumbest trait to give to any D&D race.

It's pretty clear what effect it has on them---they're not as prolific as the others. I'd rather have orcs as a xenophobic but otherwise well-intentioned culture instead of "ye olde XP grabbe bagges" who serve no other purpose in the setting than to get exterminated by the PCs. They actually saved the world once, and their xenophobia is their way of preserving the druidic secrets that healed the world.

As for the Drow, you have to keep in mind what their history in Eberron is: they were enslaved by the magic-toting giant empire. They don't want to be anyone's slaves anymore, especially now that modern humanoid society is very magic-intensive. I think this makes much more sense than the "chaotic evil but actually lawful evil" drow society in FR.

You were just expressing your distaste at how you don't want to homogenize the half-breeds. By mainstreaming the orcs and drow, you're pretty much doing the same with them.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-04-21, 05:54 PM
OK, I'm curious.

If you hate half-or-more of the fluff in Eberron... why are you running an Eberron campaign? :smallconfused:

Greenish
2010-04-21, 06:00 PM
OK, I'm curious.

If you hate half-or-more of the fluff in Eberron... why are you running an Eberron campaign?I do feel you're misrepresenting GC's stance.

AslanCross
2010-04-21, 06:00 PM
OK, I'm curious.

If you hate half-or-more of the fluff in Eberron... why are you running an Eberron campaign? :smallconfused:

Agreed. Eberron actually found a way to give them (and many other things) a decent place in the setting.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-21, 06:10 PM
I don't like all of this film noir stuff. This is heroic fantasy.

And... is that a train?

And...a... telephone?

What's next?! Airships?

-----

Not going to lie, I love Eberron. And don't understand GC's problem with the halfsies, as Eberron does better with them than any other setting, so much so that they can not be removed.

Just like you can't remove lightning trains or air-ships.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-04-21, 06:44 PM
I do feel you're misrepresenting GC's stance.
I dunno, his objections touch on some pretty fundamental parts of Eberron. Specifically the cosmopolitan mix of races and the make-up of the Dragonmark Houses. And he also doesn't like jungle Drow - one of the better innovations of the setting.

So far I haven't heard anything he likes about the setting.

If he just wants to use Warforged, Dragonmark Feats, and some Artificer stuff, I'd say just import them into either a generic world or some sort of homebrew campaign setting.

Prime32
2010-04-21, 07:07 PM
I dunno, his objections touch on some pretty fundamental parts of Eberron. Specifically the cosmopolitan mix of races and the make-up of the Dragonmark Houses. And he also doesn't like jungle Drow - one of the better innovations of the setting.

So far I haven't heard anything he likes about the setting.

If he just wants to use Warforged, Dragonmark Feats, and some Artificer stuff, I'd say just import them into either a generic world or some sort of homebrew campaign setting.In another thread he says he also wants to cut the elves' deathless-based society.

Greenish
2010-04-21, 07:08 PM
I dunno, his objections touch on some pretty fundamental parts of Eberron. Specifically the cosmopolitan mix of races and the make-up of the Dragonmark Houses. And he also doesn't like jungle Drow - one of the better innovations of the setting.Well, for one thing, he didn't say he hated any of those. Other than that, he considered changing a couple of races and dragon marked houses, hardly "half-or-more" of the setting. I was just pointing out that you're exaggerating his stance quite a bit.

So far I haven't heard anything he likes about the setting.Maybe because he doesn't want to go offtopic in his own thread.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-04-21, 07:13 PM
In another thread he says he also wants to cut the elves' deathless-based society.

Eberron is the only setting where I actually like elves. Crazy voodoo baboon elves, and scimitar-wielding psycho elves are automatically more interesting than generic hippie elves.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-21, 07:16 PM
Specifically the cosmopolitan mix of races and the make-up of the Dragonmark Houses. And he also doesn't like jungle Drow - one of the better innovations of the setting.

Okay, wrong and wrong.
I'm complaining that the DMHs aren't cosmopolitan enough. Too many houses are human or half human. I want more houses for the purebred races and halfbreeds can have a DM from one of their parents.

Also if everything the drow are is dependent completely on being in the jungle than their fluff must be pretty weak indeed. I stick to the old adage you can take the drow out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the drow.


So far I haven't heard anything he likes about the setting.

That is just plain a weird complaint. People make complaining threads all the time. Has anyone ever made a post simply to create a comprehensive list of everything they like about a campaign setting.

Prime32
2010-04-21, 07:19 PM
Okay, wrong and wrong.
I'm complaining that the DMHs aren't cosmopolitan enough. Too many houses are human or half human. I want more houses for the purebred races and halfbreeds can have a DM from one of their parents.I would recommend adding more races to the mix then, rather than giving certain races more marks. Heck, maybe the dragonmarked houses are some of the only members of "purebred races" and most people are a mix of different races (with a sizable number of mongrelfolk).

Geiger Counter
2010-04-21, 07:19 PM
In another thread he says he also wants to cut the elves' deathless-based society.

Actually it's just that I don't like the deathless type, I wanted to make the undying court outsiders instead. And I really like the valenar elves.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-04-21, 07:54 PM
That is just plain a weird complaint. People make complaining threads all the time. Has anyone ever made a post simply to create a comprehensive list of everything they like about a campaign setting.
No, no - you misunderstand me.

All I'm asking is why you're using Eberron at all. It seems like you're going through a lot of trouble to alter all this rather important fluff. For example, if the Aerenal aren't deathless, you'll need to completely rewrite their whole society.

So I asked what elements you did like to see if it wouldn't just be easier to use a different setting with just those elements.

avr
2010-04-21, 08:07 PM
You certainly could bring a couple of tribes of drow over with the backstory that someone hired them as mercs.

The interesting questions are things like Who? Where? Do they resent their (former?) employers, or do you want to contrast them with the Valenar by saying that they're super-loyal to their employers (which would have to be a religious reason IMO, their culture is fairly xenophobic).

Making them into a multinational corporation (i.e. dragonmarked house) would take some doing, but the halfling tribes managed it somehow. Twice.

One point where I disagree with the other posters is that I think the entertainment business isn't a front for Phiarlan and Thuranni. It's most of their business, and the spying probably developed out of keeping their entertainment guilds dominant in their respective fields.

AslanCross
2010-04-21, 08:26 PM
One point where I disagree with the other posters is that I think the entertainment business isn't a front for Phiarlan and Thuranni. It's most of their business, and the spying probably developed out of keeping their entertainment guilds dominant in their respective fields.

To a certain extent you're right--according to Dragonmarked, the phiarlan bloodlines (the Spirit Keepers) served as ambassadors and couriers between the scattered elven tribes before they even moved to Aerenal. They had skills in both diplomacy and music, and as such proved to be vital in keeping the tribes together before they were able to escape from Xen'Drik and found the original elven nation. These guys have thousands of years' worth of practice as entertainers and spies even before the Dragonmarks started appearing.

After the Mark of Death conflict that wiped out House Vol, the phiarlans (it was still an occupation then, not a house) banded together---they didn't want to get wiped out like House Vol---and formed House Phiarlan. They then abandoned Aerenal and migrated to Khorvaire. The humans of Khorvaire hired the elves for their incredible artistic skills, which easily surpassed the still relatively primitive human sensibilities. Through their performances, House Phiarlan built up an impressive network of contacts.
This was when the royalty started approaching them for espionage assignments.

The entertainment arm is Phiarlan's public face. When commoners think of Phiarlan, they're the entertainers. The knowledge of their espionage operations is limited to very few--mostly the nobility and royalty. Even their own spies don't know whom they're working for. They simply collect information and pass it up the line.

I'd wager that the reason the royalties of the nations don't sever their ties with Phiarlan is that they're too good at what they do and too powerful to discard as allies---nations that suspect the Phiarlans of spying on them run the risk of the Phiarlans dropping ALL their secrets onto the thresholds of their enemeis if they stop hiring them.

cupkeyk
2010-04-21, 08:52 PM
Uhm, someone mentioned that the presence of the mark of finding among the half-rcs trace its way to their human ancestors. Its the other way around, all bearers of the mark of finding are of orc blood, full, half or trace(humans).

The presence (and absence) of the dragonmarks among the races reflect that race's involvement in the dragonic prophecy. This reflects well on humans who are ambitious and innovative and thereby have the most marks. Other races' marks show their predispostions: elves are deceptive, gnomes are sociable, halflings are accomodating, orcs are survivors, dwarves are greedy. Halfleves are awesome because they have become their own race and seem to be moving towards modern concepts like transport, weather control, predictive inference.

Kalirren
2010-04-21, 09:11 PM
If there's one thing that Eberron has, it's history.

House Phiarlan, as the oldest dragonmarked house, were phiarlans (as in elven bard-entertainers) first and dragonmarked second.

There's a long line of evidence that the drow were, in fact, -bred- from humans by the old giants to be ideal agents and warriors against the Quori. They have spell resistance, which is psionic resistance. They have a martial tradition. They are especially resistant to enchantment effects. And they don't sleep, so they don't dream. The non-drow elves are really just watered-down drow.

The reason why the fluff for the drow is so tied to the jungle is that the Traveller's Curse forces it to be so. They live on Xen'drik. They're just -not- a unified civilization the way Aerenal is. Those elven population who have escaped the Traveller's Curse have surpassed the limitations it imposed, and have developed into something new and other. They're not drow anymore.

So I guess sure, if you want the dragonmarks to be more closely associated with the "pure" races, you can do that, it's your world, but there's a very strong suggestion that the boundaries between races are much more fluid than they are in many other D&D settings. It just doesn't bother me as much that the houses seem human-centric, because "human" is very fluid, and encompasses humans, orcs, both drow and non-drow, and eneko. The "races" are effectively there for game stats. You could probably do just as well to call all the Dragonmarked Houses "Khorvar houses" except Sivis, Kundarak, Ghallanda, and Jorasco. I know I'm using the term Khorvar loosely, but it's reasonable.

What I -am- surprised by is the lack of -goblinoid- Houses.

AslanCross
2010-04-22, 02:49 AM
There's a long line of evidence that the drow were, in fact, -bred- from humans by the old giants to be ideal agents and warriors against the Quori. They have spell resistance, which is psionic resistance. They have a martial tradition. They are especially resistant to enchantment effects. And they don't sleep, so they don't dream. The non-drow elves are really just watered-down drow.

Woah, that's pretty cool. Instead of being corrupted elves, they're the elf archetype? Where's this from?



What I -am- surprised by is the lack of -goblinoid- Houses.

I'm surprised and saddened. :smallfrown: Though the goblinoids do get a lot of love in the setting.

Random NPC
2010-04-22, 10:38 AM
What I -am- surprised by is the lack of -goblinoid- Houses.

Maybe goblinoids have more Khyber blood in them? Could be that they are decendent of Khyber

OldFart
2010-04-22, 03:14 PM
The average person is very open minded about race in Eberron, and persecuting half-human races as 'abominations' just doesn't fit the setting.
So races in Eberron are just not xenophobic...

I'd rather have orcs as a xenophobic but otherwise well-intentioned culture instead of "ye olde XP grabbe bagges" who serve no other purpose in the setting than to get exterminated by the PCs. They actually saved the world once, and their xenophobia is their way of preserving the druidic secrets that healed the world.

As for the Drow, you have to keep in mind what their history in Eberron is: they were enslaved by the magic-toting giant empire. They don't want to be anyone's slaves anymore, especially now that modern humanoid society is very magic-intensive. I think this makes much more sense than the "chaotic evil but actually lawful evil" drow society in FR.Except, of course, when races in Eberron are xenophobic. Then, it makes perfect sense.

GC, Eberron is a richly-developed campaign world with a vivid and engrossing back-story. Which unfortunately means that if someone publicly announces they intend to tamper with and/or emend it in their own campaign, some will argue that it shouldn't be done. Just as twenty years ago, there were folks who would shout "You can't do that! Iuz would never act that way!!"

I say alter the game world however you see fit, into whatever version works for you. You're not gonna make Humphrey Bogart and Raymond Chandler spin in their graves any harder than Keith Baker did.

Oracle_Hunter
2010-04-22, 03:29 PM
GC, Eberron is a richly-developed campaign world with a vivid and engrossing back-story. Which unfortunately means that if someone publicly announces they intend to tamper with and/or emend it in their own campaign, some will argue that it shouldn't be done. Just as twenty years ago, there were folks who would shout "You can't do that! Iuz would never act that way!!"
It's a little more than that.

I mean, what exactly is the basis of Aerenal society if there is no Undying Court? Some of the changes being proposed here would fundamentally alter the background (and current state) of huge parts of the setting.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, but rather I'm really curious why it is being done. If for no other reason than sheer curiosity.

OldFart
2010-04-22, 03:53 PM
I mean, what exactly is the basis of Aerenal society if there is no Undying Court? Some of the changes being proposed here would fundamentally alter the background (and current state) of huge parts of the setting.Yeah. It would. So what? Different pulp and film noir tropes get treated to a sprinkling of elves and orcs?

But hey, GC is only proposing a Drow DMH. I don't have ECS in front of me, but IIRC the war of Five Kingdoms lasted centuries, and the Giant Kingdom in Xendrik fell millennia before that. Plenty of time for a DMH to develop, and that's assuming one doesn't alter the Drow and/or Elven lifespans (which, IMNSHO, should have been shortened to closer to that of humans to make the Aerenal make more sense).

As for full-blood Orc DMH - Well, let's look at the ECS orcs. They are one of the shortest-lived races. I don't remember if their favored class is still barbarian (the only class that is by default illiterate). But they still lack in civilization, and in particular have nothing in their culture the likes of Morgrave University. Yet they, not the humans, not the goblins, not the elves, are the ones who remember events which, IIRC, predate the goblin empire. That's the kind of thing that only makes "sense" in an Allen Quartermain pulp - which is, of course, what makes it perfect for Eberron. But I don't see why giving Orcs the financial and cultural resources that would make the job they are doing actually plausible as opposed to ridiculous-but-disbelief-suspended-in-the-name-of-pulp-fiction would wreck the campaign.

cupkeyk
2010-04-22, 08:22 PM
and orcs were the original druids.

AslanCross
2010-04-22, 08:46 PM
So races in Eberron are just not xenophobic...
Except, of course, when races in Eberron are xenophobic. Then, it makes perfect sense.


It doesn't make sense to quote from two different people to prove your point. I don't think I'm coming from the same POV as the other person you quoted. Never once did I agree that half-races are common because xenophobia isn't a big deal in Eberron (it still is).

The reason why the half-races are so ubiquitous in the setting is the because Keith Baker found a unique place for them, like he did for a lot of fantasy elements that are typically shoehorned it simply because they're part of a "traditional high fantasy" mix. They're not just there--they have a place in history.

Which brings me to my next point...




GC, Eberron is a richly-developed campaign world with a vivid and engrossing back-story. Which unfortunately means that if someone publicly announces they intend to tamper with and/or emend it in their own campaign, some will argue that it shouldn't be done. Just as twenty years ago, there were folks who would shout "You can't do that! Iuz would never act that way!!"

I say alter the game world however you see fit, into whatever version works for you. You're not gonna make Humphrey Bogart and Raymond Chandler spin in their graves any harder than Keith Baker did.

The issue is that it IS richly-developed, and a lot of elements are intertwined and explained in detail. By changing those, other elements have to be justified. And other elements related to those. And so on. I'm just thinking it's more trouble than it's worth, and that if the OP wants to overwrite a few elements, he'll have to change a number of other aspects as well---which kind of defeats the purpose of using a premade campaign setting.

If he's willing to change all that and rewrite it so that it makes sense in his perception, more power to him. I still think it's more trouble than it's worth.

I'm not being a traditionalist. I may not have been clear on this in my previous posts, but I think that with all the well-written fluff that exists in the setting and its unorthodox treatment of D&D cliches, rewriting core concepts in the setting just isn't practical to me. A DM's got a lot of work to do to begin with.

Kalirren
2010-04-23, 07:56 PM
Woah, that's pretty cool. Instead of being corrupted elves, they're the elf archetype? Where's this from?


It's not official. This is just me connecting the dots. But given everything in the setting, it seems to be the most parsimonious explanation. The Aerenal elves were originally Xen'driki expatriates, after all. That is official.



Elven civilization began on the continent of Xen'drik. For thousands of years, the elves were enslaved and oppressed by the powerful nations of the giants. Thirty-nine thousand years ago the elves rose up against the giants . . . but this was a war both sides would ultimately lose. At the height of the conflict, a visionary named Aeren foresaw a coming cataclysm; she gathered a host of elves and convinced them to flee the approaching storm. As dragonfire and terrible magic shattered Xen'drik, the elven fleet landed on the island that would become their home. Aeren guided the elves to this land, but she never saw it with her own eyes; a wasting disease took her life during the long voyage. After interring their prophet in the soil of their new home, the leaders named their land Aerenal, "Aeren's Rest."

Though they had joined together beneath Aeren's banner, the refugees came from many different tribes with a range of traditions and beliefs. They shared a common reverence for their ancestors and the heroes who had died in the cause of freedom. While the elves were a martial culture, Aeren had said that arcane knowledge was the greatest weapon of all, and the majority of the elves chose to set aside the sword for the book. [...]

So I suppose it's most accurate to say that the elven culture of Aerenal is what the elven -counterculture- was under the dominance of giants, and that the Aereni were the few elves to have escaped the Traveller's Curse before it really manifested in full force. In that respect the Sulatar civilization makes sense as the more martial mainstream drow culture, degenerated due to having had the giant civilization upon which it was built cut out from underneath it.

But to return to the first point, it's really not a far stretch, once you recognize that at one point the only elves were Xen'driki, to postulate that the first elves were drow. And then you ask how the drow came to be, and by looking at their special qualities it can be inferred that a drow warrior was pretty much the most Quori-robust thing out there. So they're really perfect when you look at them in the context of the magocratic giant society they once occupied and the giant-Quori war. In a world where giants are humans, drow are halflings with SR. On the off chance that a quori -does- manage to possess a drow, just physically overpower it. They're agents and servants, engineered to be secure, the perfect countermeasure against the Quori.

AslanCross
2010-04-23, 08:38 PM
Interesting. The only problem I have with the theory is that you mentioned earlier that the elves were bred from human stock. That seems kind of a stretch as humans seem to be native to Sarlona for the most part.

MCerberus
2010-04-23, 09:09 PM
Interestingly enough Sarlona humans don't have marks, only Khorvaire humans do. The link between Khorvaire and marks is hinted at being Eberron shards, which only occur in Khorvaire (and the sub-continent Aerenal). It's going to take some work giving Drow a mark then...

I think Goblins not having DMs can be explained by their part in the as-of-yet deciphered Prophecy being largely over. The current age and development of the houses is a giant "WTF" for the dragons.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-23, 09:25 PM
I wasn't really thinking of making the drow a proper DMH they just have the mark but I'm thinking of just leaving the elf fluff alone but yes House Tharashk will be an orc house.

Goblinoids need decent aberrant marks like mind rape.

Kalirren
2010-04-24, 05:42 PM
Interesting. The only problem I have with the theory is that you mentioned earlier that the elves were bred from human stock. That seems kind of a stretch as humans seem to be native to Sarlona for the most part.

Good point. I don't know, but there's really no way to explain how elves and humans can crossbreed if they had independent origins. So yeah, there must have been transport of some sort from Sarlona to Xen'drik. Not sure how that happened. I don't think there's enough information floating around the campaign setting to tell.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-24, 07:01 PM
Good point. I don't know, but there's really no way to explain how elves and humans can crossbreed if they had independent origins. So yeah, there must have been transport of some sort from Sarlona to Xen'drik. Not sure how that happened. I don't think there's enough information floating around the campaign setting to tell.

I don't think the standard rules for biology apply in D&D. Changelings are the result of doppelgangers and humans and I doubt they have any common descent. The humanoid races appear to share features regardless of originating continent. This is likely due to common creator not common descent.

Prime32
2010-04-24, 08:44 PM
Goblinoids need decent aberrant marks like mind rape.Um... most aberrant marks aren't exactly at the level of 9th-level spells (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Aberrant_Dragonmark). :smalleek:

And it's not possible for them to emerge in races that don't already have dragonmarks.

I don't think the standard rules for biology apply in D&D. Changelings are the result of doppelgangers and humans and I doubt they have any common descent.You missed the part where doppelgangers can change shape. Heck, I'm not even sure if they can reproduce without changing shape.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-24, 09:47 PM
Um... most aberrant marks aren't exactly at the level of 9th-level spells (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Aberrant_Dragonmark). :smalleek:

I know which reminds me I want a better version of aberrant dragonmark for obvious reasons. Basically they can choose any spell like ability they want provided they are above the level required to cast it. Howmany levels should they need to be above when a caster would normaly be able to use it so that it is a potent ability yet doesn't beat out the established dragons marks?


And it's not possible for them to emerge in races that don't already have dragonmarks.

Yeah I'm going to ignore that. Goblins in eberron should have at least the potential to actually be a major player in Khorvaire again and having aberrant dragon marks would go a long way to help accomplish this.


You missed the part where doppelgangers can change shape. Heck, I'm not even sure if they can reproduce without changing shape.

If they can't where do new doppelgangers come from?
Anyways I'm pretty sure orcs share no common heritage with humans and they can breed.

MCerberus
2010-04-24, 09:54 PM
If you're going to make improving abberants, you might want to offer it as an ACF. The method for the standard ones are way too feat happy, while I'm sure fighters could give up tower shields and clerics turning for something decent.

Remember, with these marks, you're MARKED (tee hee) for death from the Twelve, a person of interest to the dragons, and a wonderful source of new horrible possible experiments for any number of evil people. It's really quite wonderful for plot, especially with the general tone of the setting.

Geiger Counter
2010-04-24, 10:00 PM
ACF?
When you put it like that than I see no reason aberrant marks cannot be even more powerful than the established marks.

Kol Korran
2010-04-25, 09:07 AM
To join in on the discussions on elves and drow. (sorry for the side trek). i also don't think that elves and humans have a common descent (too many things that shouldn't breed, do breed. the simplest example is orcs and humans) but if you do wish to make the connection, i think you can make a more sinister one (we can get to that in the end)

i think that elves may have learned either from the giants or by themsleves to avoid sleeping after the Quori invasion (or maybe during or even a bit before). the Drow i've always assumed were elves who were left behind, and suffered the great destruction unleashed by the dragons and their magic. this may have spurned a greater rate of mutations (read=subraces), out of which only the drow survived (mostly due to their SR and strict lethal society. they may well be why other elves are no longer present). this is my explenation to them. a bit lack luster, but still

i also wish the goblinoids had a dragonmarked house, but that would have lifted them from their "second class" state too much to be of an interest. just look what the mark of finding is doing for the orcs in the marches.

as to the sinister interbreeding connection: the half breeds seem to occur mostly, if not wholly on Eberron. and there are two lines of manipulators that i think could have had a hand in this- the first are the Daelkyr (interested in the ancient race of the elves, and the "new" and brash race of the humans, they decide to make very subtle and discreet alterations to members of both races, slowly through the ages, enough to bring them to mate. as to the half orcs- crossing the victors of old with the victors of new as well, perhaps a more minor experiement of the Daelkyr, to see what's the result. the changling and dopplegangers might have been an early creation who's purpose is to serve as a sort of a wild card in evolution. no one knows the secrets of dopplegangers- perhaps they were Daelkyr spies long ago?)

the second ones that i think of are hags, especially dusk hags with their old forms of magic. perhaps they needed new marks to arise, foresaw their ascent in the prophecy, and so have "touched" on a few humans and other races to give rise to new results? but i just love hags (as Aslan Cross and the Rakshasa)