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The Rabbler
2010-04-20, 11:35 PM
I will soon be starting a new campaign and I'm starting to get tired of THW Warblades, so I thought I'd open the floor to the playground and see what you guys could come up with.

Rules:

Melee focused (unless a SPRINKLE of casting ability will make a huge difference)
any book or web enhancement, though homebrew is greatly discouraged.
any sort of weapon (though TWF is preferred)
Ideally would be a fairly-effective skillmonkey (but focusing on killing stuff)

and that's pretty much it. baisically what I'm looking for is a glass cannon with some fair survivability and outside-combat utility. a plexiglass cannon, if you will.

ability scores are: 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 14. (I rolled amazingly)

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-20, 11:38 PM
An iaijutsu factotum sounds right up your alley.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-20, 11:41 PM
I will soon be starting a new campaign and I'm starting to get tired of THW Warblades, so I thought I'd open the floor to the playground and see what you guys could come up with.

Rules:

Melee focused (unless a SPRINKLE of casting ability will make a huge difference)
any book or web enhancement, though homebrew is greatly discouraged.
any sort of weapon (though TWF is preferred)
Ideally would be a fairly-effective skillmonkey (but focusing on killing stuff)

and that's pretty much it. baisically what I'm looking for is a glass cannon with some fair survivability and outside-combat utility. a plexiglass cannon, if you will.

ability scores are: 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 14. (I rolled amazingly)Dragonborn dwarf totemist/dragonfire adept, focusing primarily on Con, followed by Str.

Natural weapons > TWF any day.

Pluto
2010-04-20, 11:44 PM
Riposte Scout is pretty neat.
Especially with a Daring Outlaw-styled Swashbuckler/R. Scout multiclass feat.

Sword-and-Board Psychic Warrior are also good times.

Telonius
2010-04-20, 11:48 PM
Couple builds for you. First is Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415). A very elegant build, lots of options.

And, an couple old builds by yours truly. This one was for an NPC I called the "Dread Pirate Mara." Nasty little halfling pirate, spoilered for length. (Apparently the original fell victim to the forum purge). Used TWF and lots of sneak attack dice.

Halfling

Starting Stats:

Str (12-2) 10
Dex (12+2) 14
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12
Rogue1 Quick Draw (1st level feat), Sneak 1d6

Jump 4, Balance 4, Bluff 4, Intimidate 4, Profession (Sailor) 4, Tumble 4, Sleight of Hand 4, Appraise 4, Use Rope 4, Swim 4
Rogue1/Swashbuckler(CWar) 1 Weapon Finesse, Extreme Leap skill trick (from skills)

Balance 5, Bluff 5, Jump 5, Tumble 5, Profession (Sailor) 5, Intimidate 5, Extreme Leap Skill trick (CSco)
Rog2/Sws1 Evasion (Rogue), Tumbling Crawl Skill Trick (from skills), Freerunner (CSco) (3rd Level Feat) = Nimble Charge skill trick

Tumbling Crawl skill trick, Appraise 6, Profession 6, Intimidate 6
Rog2/Sws2 Grace +1, +1 Dex

Profession 7
Rog3/Sws2 Sneak 2d6, Hidden Blade skill trick

Profession 8, Bluff 8, Intimidate 8, Appraise 8, Hidden Blade skill trick
Rog3/Sws3 Insightful Strike (Sws), Daring Outlaw (6th level feat) = +3d6 sneak, +1 Dodge to AC
Rog4/Sws3 Uncanny Dodge, Sneak +4d6
Rog4/Sws3/Dread Pirate(CAdv)1 Two-Weapon Fighting, +1 Dex
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/Scarlet Corsair(Stormwrack)1 Improved Feint (Corsair), Improved TWF (9th level feat)
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC2 Sneak +5d6
Rog4/Sws3/DrP1/ScC3 Corsair's Feint

Key Equipment: +1 Keen rapier, +1 Keen kukri, +2 Mithral chain, Gloves of Dex +4, Three-Cornered Hat, Spyglass, Parrot

So, at 11th level, that will amount to:

Str 10
Dex 16 (+4 gloves) = 20
Con 10
Int 18
Wis 10
Cha 12

+10 BAB
Fort +6, Ref +14, Will +6
Single Attack: 10 +5(dex) +1 (small) +1 (magic) = +17
Full attack: 15/15/10/10, d4+4 on the rapier, d3+4 on the Kukri, both at 15-20x2.
Sneak +5d6
AC = 10 + 5 (dex) +2 (magic) +4 (Mithral Chain) + 1 (Dodge) +1 (Size) = 23


Hidden Blade, Quick Draw, and Corsair's Feint will help the character get as many sneak attacks as possible. Nimble Charge and Extreme Leap will help the character navigate a pitching ship, or a barroom brawl. Relatively high (for a Rogue-ish combatant) attack bonuses help him connect. Insightful Strike puts his intelligence to use.

And, a Dervish build.
Ranger 1 - Dodge (first level feat), Power Attack (Human)
Ranger 2 - Two-Weapon Fighting (Ranger combat style feat)
Rgr2/Fighter1 - Mobility (third level feat), Combat Expertise (Fighter Feat)
Rgr2/Ftr2 - Weapon Focus (Scimitar) (Fighter Feat)
Rgr2/Ftr3
Rgr2/Ftr4 - Resounding Blow (Fighter Feat; BoED), Improved TWF (normal 6th level)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Dervish1 - Slashing Blades (Dervish); Dervish Dance 1/day, +1 to blade attacks/damage; +1 AC (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der2 - Fast Movement +5 (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der3 - Spring Attack (Dervish); Dervish Dance 2/day, +2 to blade attacks/damage
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4 - Improved Critical (normal 9th level feat)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tempest1 - Tempest Defense +1
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp2 - Ambidexterity (Penalties to TWF lessened by 1); Two-Weapon Rend (normal 12th level feat; PHB2)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp3 - Tempest Defense +2, Two-Weapon Versatility
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der4/Tmp4 - Ambidexterity (Penalties to TWF lessened by 1)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der5/Tmp4 - Fast Movement +10 (Dervish), Dervish Dance 3/day, Greater TWF (normal 15th-level feat).
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der6/Tmp4 - Improved Reaction (Dervish)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der7/Tmp4 - Elaborate Parry (Dervish), Dervish Dance 4/day
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der8/Tmp4 - Fast Movement +15 (Dervish), Leap Attack (normal 18th level; CAdv)
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der9/Tmp4 - Tireless Dance (Dervish), Dervish Dance 5/day
Rgr2/Ftr4/Der10/Tmp4 - A Thousand Cuts (Dervish)

Skill requirements: For Dervish, Tumble and Perform.
Key equipment: Scimitars, Mithral Breastplate (counts as light armor).
Suggested stats: Str 17, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 10. I would prioritize Con over Dex, since your AC will be a bit low no matter what you do.

Tempest is from Complete Adventurer, and Dervish is from Complete Warrior. This should be decently powerful even at early levels, but it really kicks in at level 12 when you get Ambidexterity. You'll be doing Two-weapon attacks at almost no penalty then, and at no penalty from level 14 on.

Also, there's nothing wrong with a simple Rogue/Swashbuckler multiclass using Daring Outlaw. Craven does wonders for your damage.

The Rabbler
2010-04-20, 11:48 PM
An iaijutsu factotum sounds right up your alley.

and which book would that be in? I have yet to actually read through the factotum class, though I keep hearing that it's awesome.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-20, 11:55 PM
and which book would that be in? I have yet to actually read through the factotum class, though I keep hearing that it's awesome.

Dungeonscape. And yes, it is good.

Iaijutsu Focus is in Oriental Adventures.

The Rabbler
2010-04-20, 11:59 PM
now, if this campaign were to become gestalt, are there any other, much better builds that might become possible? or would I simply combine two of the builds already suggested?

Telonius
2010-04-21, 12:01 AM
To explain a bit further, iajutsu's spiel is that with a high enough "Iajutsu focus" check you can deal lots of extra damage. Normally only a couple classes from Oriental Adventures get the skill as a class skill. But since Factotum has all skills as class skills ... I think you can see where that's going.

Sinfire Titan
2010-04-21, 12:04 AM
now, if this campaign were to become gestalt, are there any other, much better builds that might become possible? or would I simply combine two of the builds already suggested?

Incarnate+Factotum=Win.

Warblade+Factotum=Win.

Wizard+Factotum=GOD.

Artificer+Factotum=Headache.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-21, 12:08 AM
Yeah, warblade + factotum is great. You can get some silly effects from spellthief/factotum due to how the wording of "steal spell-like ability" works, but other than unlimited uses of a handful of spells per day, there's not much else going for it.

Telonius
2010-04-21, 12:09 AM
now, if this campaign were to become gestalt, are there any other, much better builds that might become possible? or would I simply combine two of the builds already suggested?

The thing with Gestalt is that you typically want the two classes to support each other - to be strong where the other is weak. You'll often see things like Wizard//Monk, or Knight//Cleric. The general rule is that you shouldn't have two melee classes on either side of the gestalt if you can help it, unless one of them gives you bunches of extra damage or some other very big advantage.

For the person you're outlining, it really depends on what you see him as wanting to do. You said that a smattering of spellcasting is okay. Are we talking Paladin, or Duskblade, or Artificer? Warlock is another possibility for Gestalt, since it'll give you a bunch of always-on goodies, plus great stuff for Use Magic Device.

Draz74
2010-04-21, 12:25 AM
Rules:

Melee focused (unless a SPRINKLE of casting ability will make a huge difference)
any book or web enhancement, though homebrew is greatly discouraged.
any sort of weapon (though TWF is preferred)
Ideally would be a fairly-effective skillmonkey (but focusing on killing stuff)

and that's pretty much it. baisically what I'm looking for is a glass cannon with some fair survivability and outside-combat utility. a plexiglass cannon, if you will.

ability scores are: 18, 18, 16, 15, 14, 14. (I rolled amazingly)

Sounds to me like what you're requesting is simply a pure Swordsage. Maybe the classic dual-Kukri-wielding, Blood in the Water type.

With 18 Dex/Wis, 16 Str, 15 Cha (for Imperious Command), 14 Int/Con, you'll be awesome.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 12:26 AM
well, I'd like this character to be as little-magically focused as possible (not including items of course). Baisically, I want him/her to kill stuff by cutting it up and doing it efficiently while also being able to throw his/her weight around outside combat.

that said, I'd prefer that this character not directly use magic (of the damaging kind) in combat unless it'd be to compliment the slicing-and-dicing. I remember looking for it, but I don't remember any feat that would let a warlock channel an eldritch blast through a weapon. something like and the incantations that would make me love the warlock to no end. as for the duskblade, it seems like all it does is throw out spells, despite them being from weapons. and artificers are too casty for my tastes.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 12:29 AM
Sounds to me like what you're requesting is simply a pure Swordsage. Maybe the classic dual-Kukri-wielding, Blood in the Water type.

With 18 Dex/Wis, 16 Str, 15 Cha (for Imperious Command), 14 Int/Con, you'll be awesome.

eh. swordsages are fun, but I've been playing martial adept characters for a while now and I thought I'd take a break. I'm sorry if that wasn't very clear in the OP.

also, my group is starting to catch on to the fact that all of my awesome characters use the ToB almost primarily and they're starting to question it's particular brand of cheese.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 12:34 AM
Artificer//Factotum
+ Knowledge Devotion
+ Minor Schemas
+ Font of Inspiration
Bucket of win.


Int 18
Cha 18
Con 16
Dex 15
Wis 14
Str 14
There is a psi-artificer's substitution, but it's either hilariously good or hilariously bad and I just cannot remember which.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 12:35 AM
also, my group is starting to catch on to the fact that all of my awesome characters use the ToB almost primarily and they're starting to question it's particular brand of cheese.

If they think ToB is cheesy, you should try introducing them to God an optimized wizard.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 12:51 AM
If they think ToB is cheesy, you should try introducing them to God an optimized wizard.

it's funny, but I'm probably the only one of the party that hasn't played some sort of caster in a campaign that we've had together (in general, I find that casters just do things way too easily). One of these campaigns, though, I'll sit down and actually learn how to play a wizard. then I'll make one and let everyone else do the work against helpless buckets of XP while I sit back and think about what in the multiverse I'd most like changed.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 12:54 AM
Why wait? On a good day, an artificer can out-class a 'zard. On a bad day, they're not particularly dissimilar in power. The crucial thing to remember is that unlike a zard, you can turn anyone you want into a world-rending arcane engine.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 12:55 AM
Artificer//Factotum
+ Knowledge Devotion
+ Minor Schemas
+ Font of Inspiration
Bucket of win.


Int 18
Cha 18
Con 16
Dex 15
Wis 14
Str 14
There is a psi-artificer's substitution, but it's either hilariously good or hilariously bad and I just cannot remember which.

though I like the idea and I'll have to try it out eventually, This is too much casting and not enough shredding for the character I'm looking for.

Thanks for the idea though, I'll be sure to look into this.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 12:56 AM
I made an artificer/warforged juggernaut once. It was surprisingly powerful, and loads of fun.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 12:56 AM
Hmmm, okay.

Let's see. Do you really, genuinely want to cause tremendous pain?
How do you feel about eagles?

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:01 AM
Why wait? On a good day, an artificer can out-class a 'zard. On a bad day, they're not particularly dissimilar in power. The crucial thing to remember is that unlike a zard, you can turn anyone you want into a world-rending arcane engine.

just you wait. eventually I'll get over melee and I'll start making caster after caster after caster. In general, I limit myself to melee because I know that I like to grab the spotlight and it's challenging making a brawler that can stand up to a mean BBEG caster and an evil DM. especially when this DM harbors a particular fondness for necromancers and spells that amount to a big fat "nope."

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:02 AM
Hmmm, okay.

Let's see. Do you really, genuinely want to cause tremendous pain?
How do you feel about eagles?

I'm listening...

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 01:04 AM
So there's a feat called Battle Jump, are you familiar with it?

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:05 AM
So there's a feat called Battle Jump, are you familiar with it?

vaguely. I don't remember it being all that interesting.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 01:08 AM
It lets you charge when you fall.
Combined with pounce from the lion totem barbarian in comp champ, and you have an instant winner.

We're going to use the conservative interpretation so that we can't get 6+ full attacks a turn.

Go read Battle Jump, from Unapproachable East, then we'll talk a bit more.

arguskos
2010-04-21, 01:10 AM
It lets you charge when you fall.
Combined with pounce from the lion totem barbarian in comp champ, and you have an instant winner.

We're going to use the conservative interpretation so that we can't get 6+ full attacks a turn.

Go read Battle Jump, from Unapproachable East, then we'll talk a bit more.
While I love Battle Jump like the next fellow, there is the issue many DMs will take with it of the prereqs, being all highly specific and if waived, it can be taken by anyone. It's poorly written in this respect.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 01:14 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but according to modern sources, we can be from a region merely by speccing some points into know-local, neh?

arguskos
2010-04-21, 01:17 AM
Correct me if I am wrong, but according to modern sources, we can be from a region merely by speccing some points into know-local, neh?
Actually, as was pointed out recently, that no longer applies. It was overridden in Player's Guide to Faerun, or so it was said.

EDIT: Yep! Pg 33 of PGtF removes the skill point entry rule.


The region system in this book limits each character to one
and only one regional feat that must be selected at 1st level. This
rule replaces the one on page 28 of the FORGOTTEN REALMS
Campaign Setting that allows a character to learn another
regional feat for each 2 ranks in Knowledge (local) she has.
The regional feats presented herein are designed with the intent
that a character has access to only one. Allowing a character to
choose more than one may unbalance the system.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:21 AM
It lets you charge when you fall.
Combined with pounce from the lion totem barbarian in comp champ, and you have an instant winner.

We're going to use the conservative interpretation so that we can't get 6+ full attacks a turn.

Go read Battle Jump, from Unapproachable East, then we'll talk a bit more.

I'm AFB right now, but from a quick google search, I've gathered that battle jump makes your falling-charge thing do double damage (or give you bonuses on tripping), stop me if I'm missing anything.

I'm assuming this is to be combined with pounce (though i'm not seeing the conservative interpretation) and jumping a pretty good deal.

which would indeed entitle me to a large number of attacks. throw in iaijutsu factotum and one of the maneuvers that lets me jump really easily (via martial study) or the stance that gives me wind walk and I would get something that can rain down sharp, stabby death to all below. with kukris. kaorti resin kukris.

this got a whole lot more powerful than I was expecting it to. really quickly.

Paulus
2010-04-21, 01:23 AM
well, I'd like this character to be as little-magically focused as possible (not including items of course). Baisically, I want him/her to kill stuff by cutting it up and doing it efficiently while also being able to throw his/her weight around outside combat.

that said, I'd prefer that this character not directly use magic (of the damaging kind) in combat unless it'd be to compliment the slicing-and-dicing. I remember looking for it, but I don't remember any feat that would let a warlock channel an eldritch blast through a weapon. something like and the incantations that would make me love the warlock to no end. as for the duskblade, it seems like all it does is throw out spells, despite them being from weapons. and artificers are too casty for my tastes.

Actually it's called an invocation: Eldritch Glaive. From Dragon Magic.
You want a Glaivelock. Or a hellfire Glaivelock if you wish to be silly about it.

Just though I'd throw that at you since others seemed to miss it. Enjoy!

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 01:28 AM
I thought that was the place that made it possible. Hum, well, we'd need to either be a taur or a changeling with racial emulation. Don't throw me in the briar patch.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:29 AM
Actually it's called an invocation: Eldritch Glaive. From Dragon Magic.
You want a Glaivelock. Or a hellfire Glaivelock if you wish to be silly about it.

Just though I'd throw that at you since others seemed to miss it. Enjoy!

right. invocation. that's what I meant. :smalltongue:

I'm not really looking for a glaivelock; I was looking for something that'd let me add the eldritch blast damage onto any and all weapon attacks I made (in such a way that it would stack with anything else I could pile on) with actual weapons. I love getting a pair of +5 greater wounding kaorti resin kukris and ruining the days of many a badguy. or anyone in my way. I was looking for a way to add the eldritch blast damage onto that and get my damage into the levels of the rediculous.

arguskos
2010-04-21, 01:30 AM
I thought that was the place that made it possible. Hum, well, we'd need to either be a taur or a changeling with racial emulation. Don't throw me in the briar patch.
Yeah, happens dude. Just was happy to help (sorta).

Personally, I like rewriting that feat to be accessible to non-Taer but giving it some actual damn prereqs.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:31 AM
I thought that was the place that made it possible. Hum, well, we'd need to either be a taur or a changeling with racial emulation. Don't throw me in the briar patch.

a changeling would be an interesting idea, though I don't know if I could take the feat-hit from not being human. definitely worth looking into though.

also, I've never heard of a taur before now. should I assume they're worthless?

Paulus
2010-04-21, 01:32 AM
right. invocation. that's what I meant. :smalltongue:

I'm not really looking for a glaivelock; I was looking for something that'd let me add the eldritch blast damage onto any and all weapon attacks I made (in such a way that it would stack with anything else I could pile on) with actual weapons. I love getting a pair of +5 greater wounding kaorti resin kukris and ruining the days of many a badguy. or anyone in my way. I was looking for a way to add the eldritch blast damage onto that and get my damage into the levels of the rediculous.

Hideous Blow does that, but on only one attack. Which makes it truly hideous.
You could just go glaivelock and say your 'glaive' is two extremely long kukris that you double fight with via iterative attacks, If you really wanted to. Just a suggestion if you still wanna use invocations. *shrug*

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:38 AM
Hideous Blow does that, but on only one attack. Which makes it truly hideous.
You could just go glaivelock and say your 'glaive' is two extremely long kukris that you double fight with via iterative attacks, If you really wanted to. Just a suggestion if you still wanna use invocations. *shrug*

I might go ahead and make the second half of the gestalt be warlock and keep the glaive ready just in case I end up not having a weapon or I need to do some battlefield control. how feat-intensive is a glaivelock, by the way?

Paulus
2010-04-21, 01:44 AM
I might go ahead and make the second half of the gestalt be warlock and keep the glaive ready just in case I end up not having a weapon or I need to do some battlefield control. how feat-intensive is a glaivelock, by the way?

if yer going hellfire, a bit, cuz you'll need binder to get vestiges and quicken spell like ability and other SLA feats for silly damage.

of course my warlock just went able learner, full unarmed strike chain, craft wondrous item and extra invocation four times. ...but I'm crazy like that. AND I have a belt of magnificent to show for it. 'Course he is a feylock instead of a fiend... but he can be fiendish sometimes too... crazy like a fiendish fey fox!

whhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 01:52 AM
if yer going hellfire, a bit, cuz you'll need binder to get vestiges and quicken spell like ability and other SLA feats for silly damage.

of course my warlock just went able learner, full unarmed strike chain, craft wondrous item and extra invocation four times. ...but I'm crazy like that. AND I have a belt of magnificent to show for it. 'Course he is a feylock instead of a fiend... but he can be fiendish sometimes too... crazy like a fiendish fey fox!

whhheeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!

in that case, I don't think I'd be able to pull it off. I'll be using my feats primarily for TWF and melee shenanigans to make me generally unkillable. Thanks for the information though; I'll make sure it gets put to good use.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 02:02 AM
how about Binder for one side?

Hecore
2010-04-21, 02:12 AM
You could always splash a few levels of Fighter on one side of the gestalt when you need a bonus feat or threee to help power your build. Grab Human or Strongheart Halfling as a race and you should have enough feats for a glaivelock.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 02:50 AM
So, interestingly, Humans can hail from any of the regions containing the Taer region. Under a reasonable reading of the updated rules, which are written with the intent to consolidate regions into geographic constituencies, I think you could pretty comfortably ask-nicely for Battle Jump as a human.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-21, 02:52 AM
I think two ranks of knowledge(local) let you count as being from a region for feat qualifications as well. So you could just do that.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 02:54 AM
I think two ranks of knowledge(local) let you count as being from a region for feat qualifications as well. So you could just do that.

Technically not, after the PGtF update of the system.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-21, 09:00 AM
Well, you could forgo Battle Jump and Leap Attack shenanigans, and just go Mounted Combat shenanigans, instead.

Strongheart halfling barbarian 1/dungeoncrashing fighter 6/XXX//factotum riding a Medium mount, with Spirited Charge, Ride-By Attack, whirling frenzy, and two lances (one of which is dancing, the other is of speed, and both of which are manyfanged [+2] collision [+2] weapons), both of which are considered being wielded two-handed. Alternately, you can THF a lance and use an animated bashing shield for considerably less money, but considerably less damage as well.

You can make two full-attacks on a Ride-By Attack pouncing charge (+1 attack), all of which are dealing x7 damage, with the +5 from collision being multiplied to +35 damage on each hit. If you used a psychic warrior as the base instead of fighter, you could toss in suppression to dispel on each strike, and have a ton of psionic tricks up your sleeves without really sacrificing much (if any) power, and flavored correctly, the powers can seem to be nothing more than your warrior's prowess kicking in (Linked Power uses those swift action buffs to awesome effect).

Add in Power Attack and Shock Trooper to taste.

The damage gets silly, really, but this is a great mobile (and very powerful) charging build.

Amphetryon
2010-04-21, 09:33 AM
Well, you could forgo Battle Jump and Leap Attack shenanigans, and just go Mounted Combat shenanigans, instead.

Strongheart halfling barbarian 1/dungeoncrashing fighter 6/XXX//factotum riding a Medium mount, with Spirited Charge, Ride-By Attack, whirling frenzy, and two lances (one of which is dancing, the other is of speed, and both of which are manyfanged [+2] collision [+2] weapons), both of which are considered being wielded two-handed. Alternately, you can THF a lance and use an animated bashing shield for considerably less money, but considerably less damage as well.

You can make two full-attacks on a Ride-By Attack pouncing charge (+1 attack), all of which are dealing x7 damage, with the +5 from collision being multiplied to +35 damage on each hit. If you used a psychic warrior as the base instead of fighter, you could toss in suppression to dispel on each strike, and have a ton of psionic tricks up your sleeves without really sacrificing much (if any) power, and flavored correctly, the powers can seem to be nothing more than your warrior's prowess kicking in (Linked Power uses those swift action buffs to awesome effect).

Add in Power Attack and Shock Trooper to taste.

The damage gets silly, really, but this is a great mobile (and very powerful) charging build.

Make XXX a Halfling Outrider for even more silliness in build power.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 06:42 PM
this quickly turned into an ubercharger build. while very nice to know exactly how this is done, it would be extremely out-of-place with my group. my group is primarily composed of people who don't visit the playground and therefore do not know of the silliness that can be achieved through stacking multipliers and charging.

because of this, I keep my optimization to a rather conservative level and, frankly, this is a bit much. I'd love to use this in a more optimized campaign, but for now I'll need to keep it down a few hundred notches.

now, back to the proposed build. I really like the idea of the iaijutsu factotum and I was wanting to know if there were any other good classes to stick onto the other side of gestalt to help this; not necessarily for combat purposes, though it would help. I'd rather have the other side of the gestalt make me generally useful to have around. adding a bit to combat helps this, but I don't want it to be the main focus of the second half.

with all of that said, are there any more less-than-superoptimized ideas?

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 06:45 PM
Binder is a marvelous option, I think.

As for battle jump, you don't really need to take it to an extreme for it to be good. It's one of those things that's good even when you aren't breaking it.

Human
Feats:
1: Font of Inspiration
1b: Battle Jump
Flaw: Font of Inspiration
Flaw Font of Inspiration
2: TWF
3: Knowledge Devotion
6: Craven
9: Wild Cohort (Something That Flies, like a giant eagle)

Use the gloves of the balanced hand (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=3998) to get ITWF.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 06:56 PM
Binder is a marvelous option, I think.

As for battle jump, you don't really need to take it to an extreme for it to be good. It's one of those things that's good even when you aren't breaking it.

Human
Factotum//(Warblade OR Barbarian OR Wildshape Ranger)
Feats:
1: Font of Inspiration
1b: Battle Jump
Flaw: Twf
Flaw Font of Inspiration
3: Font of Inspiration
6: Craven
9: Wild Cohort (Something That Flies, like a giant eagle)

Use the gloves of the balanced hand (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/items.php?ID=3998) to get ITWF.

alright, then how long would I continue factotum for? from what I read, it's best abilities are obtained by level 9 (excluding the almost-capstone), so would binder be any good to add to this side?

if so, I'd probably go warblade for the other side and try and get into ruby knight vindicator.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 06:58 PM
I like factotum up to about 13th, though, honestly, you're right and you could get out at 9th. The whole low-caster thing is rough here.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 06:59 PM
alright, then how long would I continue factotum for? from what I read, it's best abilities are obtained by level 9 (excluding the almost-capstone)

The best break points are level 3 (for Brains over Brawn), 8 (for Cunning Surge) and 11 (for whatever that SR-beating ability is called, but only really useful if you're playing a caster). So either 3 or 8 for you, depending on how much you want the extra actions and what else you could be doing with the extra 5 levels. Personally, I'd go for 8.

Flob
2010-04-21, 07:03 PM
I have something, not a build or a gestalt (easy to change to a gestalt though), just a basic instruction to epic win. The levels basically go fighter, sorcerer, fighter, sorcerer, fighter (to avoid 20% xp penalty), than dragon disciple. My DM ruled that, since I was getting this template out of a class, I didn't get the LA, and ended up wrecking shop on EVERYTHING. Get you a big weapon, mabye the monkey grip feat for a bigger weapon, and you will win at life. So much fun. Some spells that should be picked are Mage Armor (stacks with regular armor), shield (for when your REALLY need it), true strike (for making sure you kill that big sea-serpent), and basically any other combat-enhancing spell. Worked for me.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 07:03 PM
The best break points are level 3 (for Brains over Brawn), 8 (for Cunning Surge) and 11 (for whatever that SR-beating ability is called, but only really useful if you're playing a caster). So either 3 or 8 for you, depending on how much you want the extra actions and what else you could be doing with the extra 5 levels. Personally, I'd go for 8.

alright, then how would 12-ish levels of binder synergize with this and which vestiges would be most helpful?

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 07:08 PM
I have something, not a build or a gestalt (easy to change to a gestalt though), just a basic instruction to epic win. The levels basically go fighter, sorcerer, fighter, sorcerer, fighter (to avoid 20% xp penalty), than dragon disciple. My DM ruled that, since I was getting this template out of a class, I didn't get the LA, and ended up wrecking shop on EVERYTHING. Get you a big weapon, mabye the monkey grip feat for a bigger weapon, and you will win at life. So much fun. Some spells that should be picked are Mage Armor (stacks with regular armor), shield (for when your REALLY need it), true strike (for making sure you kill that big sea-serpent), and basically any other combat-enhancing spell. Worked for me.

...wait, what?

Straight fighter vs. DD, I'd put my money on the fighter. Straight sorcerer vs DD is so one-sided it's not even funny. DD sucks, period. Also, mage armor doesn't stack with regular armor, and you don't get the LA by RAW anyway.

I'm honestly curious what everyone else was playing that made that character look good. I mean, I've heard of some low-power campaigns, but damn.


alright, then how would 12-ish levels of binder synergize with this and which vestiges would be most helpful?

I'm AFB, and I don't remember much off the top of my head. When I played my binder, I used...I think it was Balam and Buer. One was mostly for free rerolls, and the other for infinite healing. In any case, you can switch vestiges from day to day, so you can just experiment and see what works.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 07:10 PM
I have something, not a build or a gestalt (easy to change to a gestalt though), just a basic instruction to epic win. The levels basically go fighter, sorcerer, fighter, sorcerer, fighter (to avoid 20% xp penalty), than dragon disciple. My DM ruled that, since I was getting this template out of a class, I didn't get the LA, and ended up wrecking shop on EVERYTHING. Get you a big weapon, mabye the monkey grip feat for a bigger weapon, and you will win at life. So much fun. Some spells that should be picked are Mage Armor (stacks with regular armor), shield (for when your REALLY need it), true strike (for making sure you kill that big sea-serpent), and basically any other combat-enhancing spell. Worked for me.

so you're suggesting a gish that eventually becomes half-dragon. I suppose that would be nice, but it would focus a bit much on full attacks and buffs rather than cutting things up with lots of extra damage. also, if you were to try that build again, I'd throw in some abjurant champion to get you higher CL on your casting and probably change the caster to wizard for the versatility. that would be a pretty powerful gish.

unfortunately, I'm looking for stuff that'd make me really useful rather than really powerful at this point. thanks for the post, though:smallsmile:.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 07:13 PM
I'm AFB, and I don't remember much off the top of my head. When I played my binder, I used...I think it was Balam and Buer. One was mostly for free rerolls, and the other for infinite healing. In any case, you can switch vestiges from day to day, so you can just experiment and see what works.

well, I'm a bit hazy as to the mechanics of binders, but don't they get class features as well? I was asking whether or not 12 levels of binder would net some particularly useful class features. sorry if that wasn't apparent.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 07:15 PM
well, I'm a bit hazy as to the mechanics of binders, but don't they get class features as well? I was asking whether or not 12 levels of binder would net some particularly useful class features. sorry if that wasn't apparent.

I just took the first level and went into Anima Mage, so I barely looked at any of that, but I believe they're mostly related to improving vestiges, so you should look at those mostly anyway.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-21, 07:21 PM
IIRC binder'c class features are primary getting some bonuses as long as you have one vestige binded.. if you go the binder route, I recomend to get expel vestige and rapid binding?... eitherway IIRC that feat combo let's you change vestiges 1/day or possibly more.

The Glyphstone
2010-04-21, 07:21 PM
I have something, not a build or a gestalt (easy to change to a gestalt though), just a basic instruction to epic win. The levels basically go fighter, sorcerer, fighter, sorcerer, fighter (to avoid 20% xp penalty), than dragon disciple. My DM ruled that, since I was getting this template out of a class, I didn't get the LA, and ended up wrecking shop on EVERYTHING. Get you a big weapon, mabye the monkey grip feat for a bigger weapon, and you will win at life. So much fun. Some spells that should be picked are Mage Armor (stacks with regular armor), shield (for when your REALLY need it), true strike (for making sure you kill that big sea-serpent), and basically any other combat-enhancing spell. Worked for me.

*cries*

Mage Armor...doesn't stack with normal armor. They're both Armor bonuses.
Monkey grip is a horrible feat, rendered obsolete by a 4,000GP item.

You're better off with Fighter 5/Dragon Devotee 3/Dragon Disciple 10 - you still end up with 1st level casting, but higher BAB, and you ignore ASF for all your 1st-level spells.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 07:42 PM
I just took the first level and went into Anima Mage, so I barely looked at any of that, but I believe they're mostly related to improving vestiges, so you should look at those mostly anyway.

hmmm, I think I will. thank you for the advice.

so, it looks like my build will be:

factotum1//warblade1
binder1//warblade2
factotum2//warblade3
factotum3//warblade4
factotum4//swordsage1
factotum5//swordsage2
factotum6//chaos monk1
factotum7//chaos monk2
factotum8//chaos monk3
binder2//chaos monk4
binder3//chaos monk5
binder4//warblade5
binder5//warblade6
binder6//warblade7
binder7//warblade8
binder8//swashbuckler1
binder9//swashbuckler2
binder10//swashbuckler3
binder11//swashbuckler4
binder12//swashbuckler5

this'd get me a LOT of int synergy, a bunch of extra attacks, the really useful maneuvers and stances, wis to AC (twice I think, though one of them could be changed to int), and quite a few good reasons to stick to light armor (which means nothing to me :smallamused:).

I decided to drop RKV because of the horrendous prereq's.

any further suggestions?

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 09:02 PM
There are some great vestiges somewhere other than ToM, and I want to say it's in a web enhancement. Beyond that, I love binders, and think they are super-great, particularly with factotum and full-bab on the other side.

I would probably go ahead and drop the chaos monk and the swash, both are relatively weak, and provide little to no actual utility. You're not going to be hurting for damage if you're carrying craven + knowledge devotion + battle jump.

In their place, you could take all sorts of things, with one of my favorites being Runescarred Berserker for hilarity's sake.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 09:10 PM
There are some great vestiges somewhere other than ToM, and I want to say it's in a web enhancement. Beyond that, I love binders, and think they are super-great, particularly with factotum and full-bab on the other side.

I would probably go ahead and drop the chaos monk and the swash, both are relatively weak, and provide little to no actual utility. You're not going to be hurting for damage if you're carrying craven + knowledge devotion + battle jump.

huh... I don't actually have sneak attack. at all. what would be best for that? a riposte scout?

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 09:12 PM
There's stances for it. Never spend a level where feat will do.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 09:20 PM
that certainly works. then any ideas on what to do with those last 10 levels on the warblade side of the gestalt?

EDIT: idea! invisible blade! it'll suck for a bit, but free action flat-footed makes everything (including iaijutsu) easier to use.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 09:25 PM
You really want something with full-bab. Dungeon Crasher 6 would actually do you just fine. It's a set of substitution levels for Fighter.

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 09:34 PM
well, after that I'd have another 4 open levels.

Doc Roc
2010-04-21, 09:38 PM
4 more levels that progress initiator levels will grant you 9th level manuevers, neh?

The Rabbler
2010-04-21, 10:09 PM
very true, I wonder if I could work in some legacy champion earlier. IL 19 is very fun.