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kieza
2010-04-21, 01:26 AM
So, I'm writing a campaign setting right now, and I've hit across a sort of stumbling block: there are two styles of magic item creation in the fluff I'm writing: there are your "classical" magic items, objects permanently imbued with magical properties, and "mechanika" magic items (yes, I stole the name from Iron Kingdoms) which are easier to produce (slightly cheaper, in a way, plus most of the work can be done by apprentices, and it only takes a couple of minutes for someone more experienced to put the finishing touches on) but which don't have a real permanent enchantment--they need an external power source. The idea is that armies and whatnot use mechanika, because it's possible to mass-produce, even if it does take more maintenance to keep the items working.

Anyways, I want for there to be some sort of mechanical difference between the two types of items, and here's what I came up with:

Part of the price of a mechanikal item is for the creation of the "battery." The battery can hold up to ten charges, and using the item drains charges as such:

An item with enhancement bonus, properties, or at-will and encounter powers drains 2 charges per encounter, which activates enhancement bonuses, properties and at-will powers for the entire encounter, and gives one use of the encounter power. You can spend 2 more to get an extra use of the encounter power, but it doesn't improve the effectiveness of the properties, etc.
An item with a daily power drains 10 charges per use of the daily power.
An item with both properties, etc. and a daily power drains 1 charge for properties, etc. and 5 charges for the daily.

A battery can be recharged over a period of time by a trained operator. A character trained in Arcana can restore any number of batteries to full charge during an extended rest. Any character may attempt an Arcana check to restore a battery to full charge during an extended rest (DC 10 + 1/2 the level of the battery, +2 for each other battery the character has charged during the extended rest).

Additional batteries can be purchased for a portion of the cost of the items they power. I'm not sure what portion to make it though; one idea I have is to make it half the cost of the item, and have the battery able to power any item of the item's level or lower. The other idea is to break batteries up into ranges that they could power (1-5, 6-10, etc.), in which case the lowest level battery would be around 300gp, and a level 1 item would be 60 gp. But, a level 5 item would be 700gp, and you could buy extra uses of the daily or whatnot for 300gp, which might be unbalanced. In any case, you could swap out a battery during a short rest.

I could also use a more appropriate name for the battery. I was thinking of just using "arcane accumulator" from Iron Kingdoms, but suggestions would be welcome.

DSCrankshaw
2010-04-21, 02:33 AM
Well, you could call your battery a reservoir or a well. Feel free to append magic, arcane, etheric, akashic, or whatever word strikes your fancy to that.

The idea can work, but I'm not sure the numbers add up. As listed, a battery will drain in about a day. I'm not sure I'd make the enhancement bonus depend on whether you've spent charges on it.

Recharging batteries is good, but I'd just write it out as a straight DC where the character does one check, and that determines how many batteries he's recharged. DC 10 (or even 5) for one, +2 for each additional one.

Angelmaker
2010-04-21, 02:45 AM
An item with a daily power drains 10 charges per use of the daily power.
So itīs effectively a "use magic item daily", just that you can swap out the battery on a short rest, so it is available once more for the next encounter? How does that qualify for "cheaper"? Because, you know, itīs actually stronger than your normal use magic item daily. Iīm a bit puzzled here. :smallconfused:

Except for having to roll more dice on an extended rest for charging an arbitrarily high number of batteries: What good does it do? I donīt understand the purpose and just for adding a little bit of flair to your campaign, it seems mechanically unbalanced and bulky. Just in my humble oppinion, I might be wrong here of course or might have overlooked something.

Also: How does having those batteries affect your available daily item magic uses you have on epic/paragon/heroic tier and how do milestones work out in that system?


(DC 10 + 1/2 the level of the battery, +2 for each other battery the character has charged during the extended rest).
Seeing that a starting character ( this is just assuming your average arcana joe ) has +4 from INT and +5 from trained and +2 from race, he will make the check every single time when charging a "same level" battery. Why make any roll at all? Considering there are many simple way of increasing arcana checks, this seems like a bad design choice ( Making the use of many different batteries very efficient, if you have no limitations as with magic item daily uses. )

kieza
2010-04-21, 11:05 AM
A character trained in the Arcana skill doesn't need to make the check, they automatically recharge all the batteries they need to. It's only if there's nobody in the party that's trained that someone needs to make a check. Sorry if that was unclear.

The "cheaper" bit is because the actual item costs less; you can get a level 1 item for 60gp if you don't want a battery with it; so, if you have a bunch of items that you only use occasionally, you buy one battery and plug it into whatever item you plan on using. It's little different from a salve of power, just for item dailies instead of character dailies, which are by far more powerful.

The intention is for the battery to drain in about a day (that's why it's easy for a character with Arcana to recharge them every day); my campaign seldom goes beyond 5 encounters per day, so that's what I designed it around. Aside from being a fun bit of fluff, it also adds a little flexibility: do you want your enhancement bonus for a few more encounters, or would you rather have an extra use of an item daily?

Finally, I'm not sure how it'll interact with the limit on item dailies; frankly, I've been completely ignoring that restriction already.

Kurald Galain
2010-04-21, 11:18 AM
You can spend 2 more to get an extra use of the encounter power,
This I would recommend against: it is already easy to get low-level encounter items for cheap, that's not helped by having them activate twice or more per encounter.


An item with both properties, etc. and a daily power drains 1 charge for properties, etc. and 5 charges for the daily.
This I would also recommend against, simply because it lets you use the encounter power very often. Encounter item powers are generally more useful than daily item powers anyway.


But, a level 5 item would be 700gp, and you could buy extra uses of the daily or whatnot for 300gp, which might be unbalanced.
If your players want to be cheesy about it, then yes, this could be unbalanced. A possible answer is saying that it requires a few hours for an item to "attune" to the battery, which means that switching batteries requires an extended rest.

kieza
2010-04-21, 11:42 AM
People keep recommending against making encounters reusable with this...I personally don't think it's a problem, but I guess that it's just a blind spot with me. I'll take that bit out. (Perhaps say that it takes too long to recharge the capacitor or something.)

I don't think my players are going to be cheesy about it. Two of them aren't big into the optimization, one of them is but hasn't really got the hang of it (he never uses the Orb of Imposition, for one thing) and the fourth...well, I might have trouble with him, but he's been receptive to "Dude, you're overshadowing the rest of the group" before.

EDIT: I also gave some thought to how this interacts with that Artificer ability that recharges item dailies: it'll just recharge a battery.

Doug Lampert
2010-04-21, 11:56 AM
This I would recommend against: it is already easy to get low-level encounter items for cheap, that's not helped by having them activate twice or more per encounter.


This I would also recommend against, simply because it lets you use the encounter power very often. Encounter item powers are generally more useful than daily item powers anyway.


If your players want to be cheesy about it, then yes, this could be unbalanced. A possible answer is saying that it requires a few hours for an item to "attune" to the battery, which means that switching batteries requires an extended rest.

The batteries HAVE to be seriously inconvienent for adventurer types or EVERYONE will use them all the time if they are cheaper.

If you've trained arcana you can recharge an unlimited number automatically? Why include the restriction? Seriously, how many parties don't have ANYONE with trained arcana? And 4th edition only VERY rarely gives any benefit for training a skill beyond the simple +5 to the check, and EVERY case I can think of where it does the skill still needs to roll the check, it's just that being trained is required to even attempt it.

An adventurer uses his items more and harder than ANYONE else, if he doesn't drain batteries far faster than he can charge them then who will? If an adventurer can even come CLOSE to being able to recharge fully overnight then there's no disadvantage at all to these items for most people and they'll be the only ones that exist. (Yes little Johny centuries ago people used to make items by another method, but that's been obsolete ever since the great discovery that batteries never actually drain...)

The rules have to be set up so that an adventurer doesn't consider having this type of item a very good idea but considers it a REAL sacrifice made for the cost reduction.

I'd simply say the item is charged or uncharged. If charged then a single user may "activate" the item as a minor action, and the item acts as a normal item for that character for the rest of the day (or till the activating character takes an extended rest, whichever comes first).

At any short rest spend a daily item use and ATTEMPT to recharge any one item. This allows you to roll arcana against a DC of 15 + the item's level, on a success you recharge it.

The average soldier with three primary items made this way can activate them all in one round (using all three actions as minors to activate items), but it will take him about 10 days to fully recharge those items. Not a big problem. The average soldier doesn't see serious action every day, or even every 10 days, or he's dead long long ago. Being able to fully use his items only every 10 days isn't a really big problem if the items are noticably cheaper that way, the army can own a "training set" of normal items if they want people to have active items for training, that plus one or two spare sets for emergencies and they're covered pretty well. But an adventurer the items are quite nearly "one day per adventure and you need downtime to reset".

kieza
2010-04-21, 01:37 PM
The entire point is that battery-based items ARE replacing traditional items in most functions: they're cheaper, unless you use them near constantly, they can be mass-produced for armies and other large-scale groups, and they're fairly easy to keep charged day to day. But traditional items are still out there, because there are some enchantments that people want to be constantly working: if you're afraid of assassins, you want your armor to always be on, not just when you know there's something to be afraid of. If you have a magical lamp that reveals the invisible, you want it to function whenever you need it, not just when you know to look for something. If you want a magic carpet on which to travel, you probably want it to work more than 25 minutes a day. If you want your Arcana-boosting eyeglasses to work while you spend hours researching your next expedition, you need a traditional item. It's a case of situational effectiveness: each type of item has its purpose.

Yakk
2010-04-21, 03:46 PM
So, a huge swath of items are cheaper and just as effective.

Some items are both cheaper and more effective, because daily powers are now (effectively) encounter powers (by swapping batteries)

Some items, like defensive items, you are going to want to have them at full power all of the time.

On top of the above large power-up (I mean, daily powers on a per encounter basis?)

Note that there are a handful of "single-use" items, like sharpening stones that enchant your blade. That model might be better for armies, where the majika batteries are the 'sharpening stone' that you insert into the sword to make it magical.

kieza
2010-04-21, 04:00 PM
Okay, let me clarify something: items are, technically, cheaper, because part of their cost is split off into the battery. But, an item/battery combination is exactly the same cost as a typical item, and roughly as effective. You can buy more items and have more variety by not buying a battery with each one, but that means you'll have to spread the batteries you have among them. You can also buy more batteries than items, gaining extra uses of dailies for less than an entire extra item, but that gets expensive quickly, and probably leaves you with a smaller variety of equipment.

I also would like to reiterate that I don't really have problems with powergaming in my group; if I introduce this, the reaction will probably vary from mild interest to one guy buying a spare battery in case he really needs to use his Berserking Longsword more than once in a day.

Angelmaker
2010-04-26, 07:02 AM
Okay, let me clarify something: items are, technically, cheaper, because part of their cost is split off into the battery. But, an item/battery combination is exactly the same cost as a typical item, and roughly as effective. You can buy more items and have more variety by not buying a battery with each one, but that means you'll have to spread the batteries you have among them. You can also buy more batteries than items, gaining extra uses of dailies for less than an entire extra item, but that gets expensive quickly, and probably leaves you with a smaller variety of equipment.

I also would like to reiterate that I don't really have problems with powergaming in my group; if I introduce this, the reaction will probably vary from mild interest to one guy buying a spare battery in case he really needs to use his Berserking Longsword more than once in a day.As mentioned and as you clarified: If you ARENīt concerned about daily magic item uses and allow batteries to be changed, to change daily item uses into encounter item uses, then you WILL have an increase in power level.

If you ARENīt concerned about this, because you and your players can handle it ( your players not being abusive munchkins and you handle the encounter balance ) - then fine. I can see becoming this a nice kind of fluff.

BUT mechanically, itīs unbalanced, for all itīs worth, for the points pointed out. The battery powered devices simply ARE better. Instead of having to rely on different properties, you can just recharge your favourite power as often as you like.

Damn: Havenīt been active on this board for maybe 3 days and this thread is on page 4 or even 5. Feels like thread necromancy. :smallsigh:

Anyway, have fun, test it out and if youīd be so kind as to report how it played out, Iīd for one be interested in hearing of it. Thanks.