Ruleswise, when Miko killed Shojo, why did she fall?

[hamishspence]

There are 3 normal reasons for an act causing a paladin to fall.

The act was a gross breach of the paladin's code.

The act was the final act that led to the paladin changing alignment.

The act was an evil act.

(While some people read the PHB description to literally mean: "only willful evil acts cause paladins to fall", others read the description in the Atonement spell, as allowing for other evil acts (committed under magical compulsion, or committed unwittingly) as allowing paladins to fall as well.)

Of these three categories- which do you think fit Miko best? And do you consider more than one to be fulfilled?

I think all 3 apply- it was a gross breach, an evil act, and the last straw that changed her alignment from Lawful Good to some other alignment- possibly Lawful Neutral or True Neutral.

[Snake-Aes]

There are 3 normal reasons for an act causing a paladin to fall.

The act was a gross breach of the paladin's code.

The act was the final act that led to the paladin changing alignment.

The act was an evil act.

(While some people read the PHB description to literally mean: "only willful evil acts cause paladins to fall", others read the description in the Atonement spell, as allowing for other evil acts (committed under magical compulsion, or committed unwittingly) as allowing paladins to fall as well.)

Of these three categories- which do you think fit Miko best? And do you consider more than one to be fulfilled?

I think all 3 apply- it was a gross breach, an evil act, and the last straw that changed her alignment from Lawful Good to some other alignment- possibly Lawful Neutral or True Neutral.

All of them at the same time, and for a petty and egotistical reason. She killed her legitimate lord. She killed an innocent man. She did so because she kept jumping to conclusions using faulty logic that bends the world around her and what she wants to believe in.

Personally I really dislike most stuff about paladins and alignment tricks in the core material, because they are perfect material for players being dumb about alignments.

[magic9mushroom]

For the record, I consider it to be a gross breach of her Paladin's Code, not an Evil act (though a Chaotic act) and her alignment to still be Lawful Good afterwards.

(This is a splinter from another thread where I've been arguing this)

[SadisticFishing]

Err.. not an evil act? How? It was murder. Flat out.

All three, but most definitely the Evil act bit. Last straw of alignment is hard to argue, as we haven't seen many of the straws. Gross violation is extremely likely, as she killed her liege.

[Kish]

I think Haley's wise to be so conservative about what knowledge she's claiming here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0524.html).

That is, we know "killing their defenseless liege lord" fits at least one of the categories that will make a paladin Fall, and that's the limit of our actual knowledge. It might fit any of the three, or it might fit two at once, or all three.

Shojo was a lot of things, but "innocent" isn't one of them. Nor (to make a feeble attempt at preempting something else people have said about him in previous threads like this one) is "harmless." If Miko had stayed sane and let Hinjo handle the situation, Shojo would have spent the rest of his life, such as it was, in prison.

[magic9mushroom]

Err.. not an evil act? How? It was murder. Flat out.

Miko had good reason to conclude that he was Evil and working with Xykon, and also had good reason to conclude that he was likely to rig his own trial.

She was wrong, of course, but acts which cause evil inadvertently aren't Evil acts.


All three, but most definitely the Evil act bit. Last straw of alignment is hard to argue, as we haven't seen many of the straws. Gross violation is extremely likely, as she killed her liege.

Gross violation is all but explicit ("must respect legitimate authority"). I summarised all of Miko's actions before and after Falling here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8330186&postcount=186) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8340294&postcount=232). She appears to be LG after falling, and was well into LG before falling.

[Saph]

The act was a gross breach of the paladin's code.

The act was the final act that led to the paladin changing alignment.

The act was an evil act.

Of these three categories- which do you think fit Miko best? And do you consider more than one to be fulfilled?

Definitely a gross breach, definitely an Evil act. As the Giant mentioned in the book commentary, Hinjo's reaction was that of someone who believed in the law, while Miko's reaction was that of someone who believed herself above the law.

Not sure about the alignment change. I've always thought that alignment changes are gradual rather than sudden, and it's possible to commit an Evil act without changing alignment, so I wouldn't want to commit myself on that one.

[TheYoungKing]

As I believe I've said before, Miko skirted the edge between LG and LE- she completely skipped Lawful Neutral.

[magic9mushroom]

Definitely a gross breach, definitely an Evil act. As the Giant mentioned in the book commentary, Hinjo's reaction was that of someone who believed in the law, while Miko's reaction was that of someone who believed herself above the law.

Not sure about the alignment change. I've always thought that alignment changes are gradual rather than sudden, and it's possible to commit an Evil act without changing alignment, so I wouldn't want to commit myself on that one.

Ignoring the law is Chaotic, not Evil. It was most certainly a Chaotic act.

[TheYoungKing]

The Law of the Land is not necessarily Lawful. Even a Lawful character may defy authority.

[hamishspence]

If Miko had stayed sane and let Hinjo handle the situation, Shojo would have spent the rest of his life, such as it was, in prison.

For what? Lying to his own subordinates? Rigging a trial?
Both are well within the bounds of what might be expected of a monarch.



She was wrong, of course, but acts which cause evil inadvertently aren't Evil acts.

PHB Atonement spell seems to differ. There is such a thing as "unwitting evil acts"

BoVD also mentions "killing someone through gross negligence" as the sort of act which should "probably" cause a Paladin to Fall.

Miko's act was somewhat worse than either of these- she killed Shojo on purpose. Based on a "glorified hunch".

[Saph]

Ignoring the law is Chaotic, not Evil. It was most certainly a Chaotic act.

Killing your defenceless liege lord who's 80-plus years old, offering no resistance, and who is the key person holding the city together when a huge Lawful Evil invasion force is scheduled to arrive in 24 hours is most definitely an Evil act.

So again:

• Gross violation of conduct: Yes.
• Willfully committing an Evil act: Yes.
• Shifting alignment: Possibly. Don't have enough evidence to know for sure. (Though her actions immediately afterwards in trying to kill everyone else in the throne room do kinda support this theory.)

[hamishspence]

DMG says alignment shifts are usually gradual, but also, that there are exceptions to the rule.

In this case, Miko's attitude- her growing obsession with the Order, might fall into the category of slow alignment movement- with the killing of Shojo being the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not sure about the alignment change. I've always thought that alignment changes are gradual rather than sudden, and it's possible to commit an Evil act without changing alignment, so I wouldn't want to commit myself on that one.
Miko’s always been about sticking to the letter rather than the spirit of Lawful Good. That’s an alignment change a long time coming. Any shift in alignment was far from sudden.


Ignoring the law is Chaotic, not Evil. It was most certainly a Chaotic act.
The reason why you ignore the law also places an act on the Good/Evil axis. You wouldn’t say a murderous rampage to satisfy some dark bloodlust is Chaotic but not Evil, would you?

Furthermore, ignoring an unjust law is not inherently Chaotic any more than following it is inherently Lawful.

So simply saying the act ignored a law doesn’t really say whether the act was Lawful, Chaotic, Good, Evil, or even Neutral with respect to either axis.

[magic9mushroom]

The Law of the Land is not necessarily Lawful. Even a Lawful character may defy authority.

Yes, a Lawful character may defy authority, but defying authority is inherently Chaotic. That's kinda the whole point of Chaos, after all.


Killing your defenceless liege lord who's 80-plus years old, offering no resistance, and who is the key person holding the city together when a huge Lawful Evil invasion force is scheduled to arrive in 24 hours is most definitely an Evil act.

Not if the expected result of leaving him alive is his betrayal of the city and the city falling more easily.


DMG says alignment shifts are usually gradual, but also, that there are exceptions to the rule.

In this case, Miko's attitude- her growing obsession with the Order, might fall into the category of slow alignment movement- with the killing of Shojo being the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

Wrong. I already linked the list of her actions before and afterward, and she looks pretty damn LG.

[factotum]

Yes, a Lawful character may defy authority, but defying authority is inherently Chaotic. That's kinda the whole point of Chaos, after all.


No, it isn't the whole point of Chaos. Someone who is Chaotic will tend to follow their own urges, but that doesn't mean said urges *have* to be contrary to the local authority just for the lulz. In fact, I'd argue that somebody who ALWAYS did the opposite of what authority told him to do was actually being rather consistent in his behaviour, and thus quite Lawful!

Basically, Law and Chaos have nothing to do with SECULAR law. If a Lawful character lives in a society where the local laws strongly disagree with his own personal code, he is at liberty to ignore those laws--and he will be no less Lawful because of it.

[magic9mushroom]

Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

:smallamused:

[Saph]

Not if the expected result of leaving him alive is his betrayal of the city and the city falling more easily.

Except that reasoning is completely and utterly wrong. And just as importantly, it was well within Miko's capacity to realise that it was wrong. Nobody held a gun to her head and forced her to kill Shojo: she chose to murder him of her own free will. She put her own pride and desire to hurt others above the good of the city, and as such she was one of the major causes of Azure City's destruction. As a result, she is now one of the most widely disliked characters in OotS, and for extremely good reason.

[hamishspence]

Somewhat limited, the SRD.

WoTC goes into more depth on Law & Chaos here:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a

explaining how it's quite possible for a Lawful character to be opposed to a particular authority's laws- and this doesn't make them any less Lawful.

[Magicyop]

Oh, pshaw. Miko sure was lawful good- but only to her own rules. Listen to some of the stuff she says! Her justification basically means that she can do anything she wants and it will be smiled on by the gods just BECAUSE she succeeded in doing it!

She expects that if the gods disagree with her, they would simply jump down from the sky and swipe at her with big rooster claws, which definitely seems un-god-like to me. She takes no effort to try and accept or understand morality itself, but deludes herself into the circular logic that anything she does is righteous BECAUSE she is successfully doing it(Why don't the gods just destroy Xykon, then, hmm?)

Miko may have believed herself LG until the end, but believing something doesn't make it true. All the places where you mentioned it seems good, or lawful, there always seems to be something wrong(in most cases). Something about the WAY in which Miko performs these acts just seems off to me, with little details that strike me as blatantly chaotic or evil.

[Procyonpi]

Miko had good reason to conclude that he was Evil and working with Xykon, and also had good reason to conclude that he was likely to rig his own trial.

She was wrong, of course, but acts which cause evil inadvertently aren't Evil acts.


I'm sorry, but in my view, accidentally committing evil acts because you didn't have enough information on the situation is excusable. "Accidentally" committing evil acts because you had an over-the top crazy interpretation of the situation that twists any conception of logic into total unrecognizably is not. Even if you concede that Miko could have suspected Shojo was in league with Xykon, it's quite a leap to say that the lawful good thing to do is to go vigilante and kill him without any solid evidence.

[hamishspence]

Miko may have believed herself LG until the end, but believing something doesn't make it true. All the places where you mentioned it seems good, or lawful, there always seems to be something wrong(in most cases). Something about the WAY in which Miko performs these acts just seems off to me, with little details that strike me as blatantly chaotic or evil.

Yes-

always referring to V as "Elf",

refusing to pay V anything after V asked to be paid for helping her in the quest she demanded her prisoners go on,

snapping aggressively at Elan when he asks what kind of samurai she is,

locking Belkar in solitary confinement on the excuse that Durkon's snoring would have given him "emotional distress",

her spiteful "you will suffer a terrible fate for choosing Evil over Good" warning to the Order after they protected Belkar from her,

and so on, do seem to suggest she's not as LG as she thinks she is.

[DeltaEmil]

always referring to V as "Elf"She couldn't tell Vaarsuvius' gender.


refusing to pay V anything after V asked to be paid for helping her in the quest she demanded her prisoners go on,The other members of the Order (sans Belkar, the Chaotic Evil psychopath) were okay with helping, and Vaarsuvius is technically in her custody.

snapping aggressively at Elan when he asks what kind of samurai she is, Good does not mean being nice, as Roy Greenhilt proves again and again. Also, Elan can be obnoxious.

locking Belkar in solitary confinement on the excuse that Durkon's snoring would have given him "emotional distress",And how is that not good or lawful if they put him away in solitary confinment by his own wish?

her spiteful "you will suffer a terrible fate for choosing Evil over Good" warning to the Order after they protected Belkar from herNothing wrong with being spiteful. The two Greenhilt-men were this towards each another in the celestial limbo.

and so on, do seem to suggest she's not as LG as she thinks she is.She's as lawful good as Roy is. She could have tried to be a better lawful good character, like Durkon. Roy should try too.

[lord_khaine]

Except that reasoning is completely and utterly wrong. And just as importantly, it was well within Miko's capacity to realise that it was wrong. Nobody held a gun to her head and forced her to kill Shojo: she chose to murder him of her own free will. She put her own pride and desire to hurt others above the good of the city, and as such she was one of the major causes of Azure City's destruction. As a result, she is now one of the most widely disliked characters in OotS, and for extremely good reason.

You mean, she chose to murder the Tyrant who was plotting the fall of the city by allying with the undead horror known as Xykon.


I'm sorry, but in my view, accidentally committing evil acts because you didn't have enough information on the situation is excusable. "Accidentally" committing evil acts because you had an over-the top crazy interpretation of the situation that twists any conception of logic into total unrecognizably is not. Even if you concede that Miko could have suspected Shojo was in league with Xykon, it's quite a leap to say that the lawful good thing to do is to go vigilante and kill him without any solid evidence.

Actualy, if she had been right about Shojo then it would have been the right thing to do.


always referring to V as "Elf",

So? its pretty clear the lag of respect was mutual.


refusing to pay V anything after V asked to be paid for helping her in the quest she demanded her prisoners go on,

Actualy, she newer demandet anyone else should help her, she said it was her duty to help the farmer, and Roy offered their assistance Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html)


snapping aggressively at Elan when he asks what kind of samurai she is,

This doesnt have anything to do about aligment.


locking Belkar in solitary confinement on the excuse that Durkon's snoring would have given him "emotional distress",

He asked for it.


her spiteful "you will suffer a terrible fate for choosing Evil over Good" warning to the Order after they protected Belkar from her,

Yes? she takes her job seriously, and they had just stopped her from killing a seriously evil bastard that only a moment ago had killed a innocent guard.


and so on, do seem to suggest she's not as LG as she thinks she is.

And so on yes indeed, of all the comics she have been part in, then the only one where she really doesnt act like a paladin is the one where she falls.

edit.

She's as lawful good as Roy is. She could have tried to be a better lawful good character, like Durkon. Roy should try too.

Yeah i agree, there are much better rolemodels for LG than either Miko or Roy, Durkon would be one of them, Hinjo is another.

[hamishspence]

The other members of the Order (sans Belkar, the Chaotic Evil psychopath) were okay with helping, and Vaarsuvius is technically in her custody.

Belkar was OK with helping as well. Either way though- it's like a police cop expecting that people they've arrested, help them fight other criminals.

A bit much.


He asked for it.

He asked for a room to himself while being put up in a hotel- not a dark cell to himself while being put in jail.


Nothing wrong with being spiteful. The two Greenhilt-men were this towards each another in the celestial limbo.

And the Deva points out to Roy that there is something wrong with it- he "enjoys lambasting his opponents a bit too much"

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Not if the expected result of leaving him alive is his betrayal of the city and the city falling more easily.
Given the “defensless” part of “defensless” liege, the actual expected result is that Shojo be arrested and taken somewhere he would be unable to engage in anything resembling betrayal.

[DeltaEmil]

And the Deva points out to Roy that there is something wrong with it- he "enjoys lambasting his opponents a bit too much"But lambasting is not enough that it is considered a negative point that might boot him (or his father) into another aligned plane of existance. Just like being grumpy or unfriendly is.
Now, abandoning a team-mate, letting a psychopath under your custody roam free (with a barely sufficient excuse why anybody should keep him instead of simply executing him for murdering innocent people), or killing an old and defenseless man are something that are examined by the beings of the celestial plane.

[magic9mushroom]

Yes-

always referring to V as "Elf",

I don't recall V actually telling Miko her name.


refusing to pay V anything after V asked to be paid for helping her in the quest she demanded her prisoners go on,

V is being Evil and specifically vindictive to Miko there.


snapping aggressively at Elan when he asks what kind of samurai she is,

I see no aggressiveness, only frustration.


locking Belkar in solitary confinement on the excuse that Durkon's snoring would have given him "emotional distress",

No, Belkar asked for solitary confinement on that excuse. Miko gave him what he asked for. That is a Good act.


her spiteful "you will suffer a terrible fate for choosing Evil over Good" warning to the Order after they protected Belkar from her,

Well, given general D&D-style afterlives, this is a fact.


and so on, do seem to suggest she's not as LG as she thinks she is.

She's not personable, but she has the best interests of others at heart, and a strong belief in honor. She's definitely LG.

[The Pilgrim]

1- Breach in the Paladin's code. That's unquestionable. Killed her liege and all that.

2- Alignment change: Unlikely, she keepts acting lawful and good after the fall - at least, after she calmed down from the murder-fall scene:
- She needs to build-up a justification to break from Jail despite it was obvious that the city was in chaos as all other inmates had escaped already.
- She prioritizes the fulfillment of her oath over her personal revenge desires.
- She sacrifices herself for the greater good.

3- Evil act: Possibly. Killing an unarmed octagenarian et all. Even through she had build-up a justification, it was based in false premises and fault logic. She was thus deservered the punishment, should learn to analize better. Not enough to imply a change of alignment, but a deviation from LG gross enough to justify losing paladinhood..

[hamishspence]

When Roy brings up the possibility of him killing Belkar in his sleep, the Deva says he shouldn't do that either.



V is being Evil and specifically vindictive to Miko there.


Expecting to be paid for your help is not Evil.

Trying to blow Miko up (if it had succeeded) would have been, though.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'm sorry, but in my view, accidentally committing evil acts because you didn't have enough information on the situation is excusable. "Accidentally" committing evil acts because you had an over-the top crazy interpretation of the situation that twists any conception of logic into total unrecognizably is not. Even if you concede that Miko could have suspected Shojo was in league with Xykon, it's quite a leap to say that the lawful good thing to do is to go vigilante and kill him without any solid evidence.

True that, Miko's conclusions were based on her own assumptions that the Order of the Stick were evil and working with Xykon. If you take these to the Nth degree, as Miko did...

I have to say, Miko's fall is still one of my favourite moments of OOTS.

[Morthis]

You mean, she chose to murder the Tyrant who was plotting the fall of the city by allying with the undead horror known as Xykon.

This was her own speculation, based on limited evidence. It's not as if she was presented with flawed evidence and drew the wrong logical conclusion, she had little evidence and simply filled in the gaps with whatever she wanted to believe. She was essentially overreacting based on limited evidence. In what way is that not evil?


Actualy, if she had been right about Shojo then it would have been the right thing to do.

But she wasn't right, which goes right back to actually having enough evidence to draw a strong conclusion before committing murder. She was overzealous and righteous, and because of that she was willing to commit an act that she knew to be very evil if she was wrong. I don't think that she at any point even considered the possibility she might be wrong.

[Werewindlefr]

You mean, she chose to murder the Tyrant who was plotting the fall of the city by allying with the undead horror known as Xykon.
She chose to kill Shojo over listening to any evidence of his innocence. Point is, he was innocent, and there was plenty of evidence for it. And she didn't have any evidence backing up her own assumptions. Killing people out of mere suspicion is evil.


I don't think that she at any point even considered the possibility she might be wrong.Which is a rather classic reason for a fall towards evil.

[DeltaEmil]

When Roy brings up the possibility of him killing Belkar in his sleep, the Deva says he shouldn't do that either.Cutting his throat in his sleep is not the only way of executing him (although Roy is being a hypocryte again, as he had no problem in beheading sleeping goblins :smallamused: - but then again, they were green and had fangs, while Belkar does not), and Roy is quick in pulling the wool over the Deva.

[Kish]

But she wasn't right,
Miko is Mace Windu!

[TriForce]

why she fell? easy.

first of all, killing a person who is no direct threath to you is against the paladin code, regardless of his alignment. miko killed shojo while he was unarmed and didnt do anything that would make it seem miko was in any danger whatsoever.

also, executing someone who broke the law in a minor way ( fraud and lies are usually not punishable with death) while refusing to let the normal justice system judge him is a VERY chaotic act. in a place where the judges are on the payroll of a evil tyrannical overlord thats excusable ( but even then the paladin shouldnt like it) but in AC, this was not the case, even if shojo was corrupt, he didnt have the entire justice system in his pocket, so any trail could be expected to be fair. again, against the paladin code and a chaotic thing as a extra.

perfectly logical reasons for miko to fall. i honestly cant see why this is even debatable, even on this forum

[Jagos]

Yep, Jedi logic helps in ALLL situations.

[Ancalagon]

i honestly cant see why this is even debatable, even on this forum

I asked myself the same... ESPECIALLY in a thread started by someone who has probably seen AND debated all possible standpoints, views, arguments...

I simply don't get what the purpose of this thread is but to repeat what has been said countless times. Now, if someone new joins that debate it's understandable... but someone old re-starting it? I'm simply not getting it.

Must be "argument for the sake of argument" - and if that's what is ones personal entertainment, then it's fine. But right now, it's more philosophical and does not any practical purpose. It's like those chinese monks who sweep the leaves in a forest...

[hamishspence]

I asked myself the same... ESPECIALLY in a thread started by someone who has probably seen AND debated all possible standpoints, views, arguments...

I simply don't get what the purpose of this thread is but to repeat what has been said countless times. Now, if someone new joins that debate it's understandable... but someone old re-starting it? I'm simply not getting it.

It was an attempt at moving the Miko debate out of the Eugene thread and into a thread of its own.

Not so much "should Miko have fallen?" as "Of the 3 reasons why paladins fall, which fit Miko best"- (with the possibility allowed for, that multiple reasons fit).

[Wymmerdann]

Magic9mushroom and Lord Khaine


The term that gets thrown around when someone attempts to hide evil acts behind recklessness is that they "ought reasonabely to have known"; that is, that there is an objective moral standard for common sense. This can be mitigated by mental deficiencies and such, but Miko's claim for such would be laughed right out of court.


Miko "ought reasonabely have known" that Shojo was not in league with Xykon. Furthermore, even if she did she "ought reasonabely have known" that Shojo was not an immediate threat and that a lawful trial, even if held by an assembly of the Saphire Guard's Paladins rather than *tainted* courts would be possible and representative of a fair rather than arbitrary adjudication. Unlike, for instance, Darth Sidious, Shojo could not shoot lightning from his hands and could have provided no physical threat once arrested.

Coupled with her growing obsession with the Order and her festering arrogance, Miko's appeals to the gods rely on a deluded sense that she is special. Such foolishness would not exculpate her from the charges as they do not constitute a mental deficiency. By *assuming* that the gods approve of her actions simply because they are allowed to occur severs any legitimate claim to a divine authority. She "ought reasonabely to have known" that her actions were not ordained or empowered by the gods in any way.

Thus Miko's assassination lacks any justification or excuse. She ought reasonabely to have known that Shojo was innocent or at least deserved a trial. She ought reasonably have known that to execute a man most likely innocent of the charges she sought to lay was an usurpation of an as-of-yet-undisproved authority without justification. To rebel against a legitimate authority (in the sense of the legal system of Azure system *and* the hierarhy of the Saphire Guard) is chaotic. A paladin may only have excuse to rebel against an authority if it is illegitimate, which Shojo's was of yet, not reasonabely conceived to be.

Furthermore, without legal prescription, Miko's execution of Shojo is tantamount to murder. Given her recklessness, her excuses and justification cannot mitigate this. Murder of an unarmed and non-agressive person without legal authority cannot be classified as anything but evil.

Thus Miko's act was chaotic evil.

Furthermore, as noted by others, it represented the culmination of long term character development and in that sense was systematic rather than idiosyncratic. In that sense it cannot be waived of as a single *act* or an ethical outlier, but rather indicative of Miko's alignment at the time she committed the act. (She was not, for example, engaged in a whole bunch of legitimately lawful good quests when she killed Shojo that would mitigate her entire character being smeared with the characterisation of a single action.

Ergo, in the few seconds after she killed Shojo, Miko would be best characterised as, at best Neutral Evil, but more reasonabely, Chaotic Evil.

Given the above argument, I am hard pressed to find a reason why she does not fulfill all three requirements for a fall indicated earlier.

[hamishspence]

Nice. Sums up my feelings on the issue pretty well.

[Optimystik]

Did we already link The Giant's forum commentary (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8081896#post8081896) on Miko's act?

He specifically refers to her murder of Shojo as "executing the legal ruler of their nation on a glorified hunch." His assessment makes it clear that he didn't consider Miko to have had nearly enough proof to make such a drastic judgment. He also says she "screwed up THAT much."

So to answer hamish's original question - I think Miko would have fallen for killing Shojo, even if her record had been previously spotless. The fact that it wasn't only makes matters worse.

[Procyonpi]

Actualy, she newer demandet anyone else should help her, she said it was her duty to help the farmer, and Roy offered their assistance Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0211.html)


Actually if she had been right about Shojo - proposition for which there was not enough evidence for any reasonable person to have jumped to - killing him still would have been wrong. If you recall, Hinjo was placing him under arrest...

[Yendor]

Actually if she had been right about Shojo - proposition for which there was not enough evidence for any reasonable person to have jumped to - killing him still would have been wrong. If you recall, Hinjo was placing him under arrest...

...and even if you accepted that Shojo was no longer a legitimate authority, Hinjo, as heir to both the throne and leadership of the Sapphire Guard, was, and his explicit wishes were ignored.

[Dark Matter]

Multiple people have mentioned "good" doesn't have to mean "likable". This is true... but normally this applies to low Chr characters.

Eugene probably has low Charisma. It's the traditional dump stat for a wizard. He's not physically attractive, he's abrasive, he didn't (couldn't?) get married until he'd gotten age adjustments to his Chr, etc.

If Charisma is his dump stat, we can't hold it against him when evaluating his alignment.

Miko has a high Charisma. Ignoring that Chr is important for Paladins, she's physically attractive (witness Roy), she can lay on hands, etc. And for all that her fellow Paladins can't stand her. She's Lawful Stupid, vengeful, full of pride, unstable, uses her "Detect Evil" as a license to kill, and has problems interacting with Chaotic people. None of these things are "good" and many of them are associated with "evil". The list goes on too...


408: Miko is sitting there confused when Roy starts whacking her with his sword. She fights back. After a large amount of taunting from him, she stuns him and runs off. Nothing really alignment-related.She actively blames Roy for her fall/murder. Refusing to accept responsibility for your own misdeeds and mistakes is probably evil.


409: Miko attempts to execute Belkar. Hinjo stops her. After an argument, Miko attacks Hinjo and is close to killing him when Roy smacks her across the room and Miko falls unconscious. The former is Chaotic Good, the latter is Evil.Belkar is standing there, unresisting and helpless with the mark of justice preventing him from doing anything. As vile as he is, it's still attempted murder and we have to assume motivated by revenge.

For that matter her earlier attempt to "execute" him in the thrown room probably would also have been murder. He's defeated, there's no need to kill him and several reasons not to. Granted, Belkar was actively trying to make her fall, but that's besides the point. Further when she leaves she basically swears vengeance on the OOTS.


419: Miko wakes up in jail. Threatens to kill Belkar upon his taunting of her. Snaps Sabine's neck upon the latter offering Blackguardhood and making sexual passes. The former is not really alignment-related, the latter is Good.Good? All of this is evil. Roy got taken to task in heaven for taunting people. Threatening to murder someone is evil. Physically assaulting someone for making a pass is also evil.

Through our long viewing of Miko, Giant managed to put us into her head. We know who she is, we know why she does the things she does. But us understanding her doesn't make her actions more "good". Redcloak is a good example on why understanding why someone is the way he is doesn't make him less evil.

I wouldn't be shocked at Miko ending up in the LG-heaven... but she was clearly a lot more Lawful than she ever was Good. Personally I think she'd be a lot more comfortable in LN's heaven with the rest of the Lawful-Stupid people.

Or to answer the 3 questions from the first post: All of them.

[Procyonpi]

Miko has a high Charisma. Ignoring that Chr is important for Paladins, she's physically attractive (witness Roy), she can lay on hands, etc. And for all that her fellow Paladins can't stand her. She's Lawful Stupid, vengeful, full of pride, unstable, uses her "Detect Evil" as a license to kill, and has problems interacting with Chaotic people.

Not to mention assuming her detect evil is malfunctioning when it doesn't fit her pre-concieved view of the world, and then killing anyways...

[The Pilgrim]

Coupled with her growing obsession with the Order and her festering arrogance, Miko's appeals to the gods rely on a deluded sense that she is special. Such foolishness would not exculpate her from the charges as they do not constitute a mental deficiency. By *assuming* that the gods approve of her actions simply because they are allowed to occur severs any legitimate claim to a divine authority. She "ought reasonabely to have known" that her actions were not ordained or empowered by the gods in any way.

There is an anachronism here. The panels in wich Miko justifies herself in this way came after Shojo's assasination. They where Miko's way to rationalize her murdering and later her jailbreak in his LG conciousness.


To rebel against a legitimate authority (in the sense of the legal system of Azure system *and* the hierarhy of the Saphire Guard) is chaotic. A paladin may only have excuse to rebel against an authority if it is illegitimate, which Shojo's was of yet, not reasonabely conceived to be.

Shojo had proven to be acting above the Law, lying everyone and working behind the back of the Paladins. Thus deposing him was justified, and Hinjo was Ok with it. More than that, Hinjo was the first to propose that Shojo had to be deposed.*

Miko wasn't, on the other hand, rebelling against the hierarchy of the Saphire Guard. Since, lacking Shojo, she WAS the highest Shappire Guard officer in the room - and possibly the City.

*For instance, someone arged that by murdering Shojo, Miko had undermined Azure City's defenses. Well, Hinjo's plan was to throw Shojo into the dungeon and judge him AFTER the battle, so "Shojo removed from the board right before the battle" would have happened anyway.


Ergo, in the few seconds after she killed Shojo, Miko would be best characterised as, at best Neutral Evil, but more reasonabely, Chaotic Evil.

Miko was guilty of the crime. But being found guilty of a crime does not make you automatically evil.

Miko thought Shojo was a traitor, thought that Azure City's Legal System couldn't be trusted since Shojo had rigged it, and thought that as the highest-ranking officer of the Shappire Guard, she had the right to trial, sentence and execute Lord Shojo on the spot.

Clrearly she was wrong. She commited a crime. And she was guilty. But still that doesn't necessary turn her into an non-lawful, evil character.

[DeltaEmil]

She tried to kill Roy, because he detected as evil. Also, her investigation claim that the bald warrior-guy was humiliating a dwarven smith, stomped on a flumph (a good monster), threw a little animal into the mouth of a troll-monster and destroyed a gate that maintains the fabric of reality.
But it's a webcomic, so hilarity ensues when it turns out that it's all a misunderstanding.

[derfenrirwolv]

Because the D&D world is not mired in existentialism. There is an outside, objective deciding force or entity that decides if what a paladin does is evil or not (the gods, the dm, or the author) It doesn't matter if the paladin THOUGHT she was doing the right thing. If she didn't DO the right thing she gets nailed.



Two probable reasons. Either one would be enough to fall but imho she hit both at the same time

1) Commiting an evil act, namely slaying her (relatively) innocent liege lord down. Despite what people like to pin on him, Shojo wasn't evil, wasn't out to destroy azure city, and was only guilty of violating an oath that was keeping him from trying to save the world.

2) Her alignment likely shifted at this point from Lawful good to lawful neutral. She had been on a slow, steady decline away from good, barely meeting the criteria, for some time and her time with the order probably gave her a nice push. It IS possible for a single act to change your alignment, and since she had only barely qualified as good before, its no surprise that this would not only tip her over but catapult her over.

[hamishspence]

Shojo had proven to be acting above the Law, lying everyone and working behind the back of the Paladins. Thus deposing him was justified, and Hinjo was Ok with it. More than that, Hinjo was the first to propose that Shojo had to be deposed.*

After Miko's accusations of treason- conspiring with Xykon, etc, Hinjo does propose putting him under arrest- but it's not clear whether he would have been restored to the hereditary role of ruler of the city, had he been tried and found innocent on those particular charges.

We know from War & XPs that even rulers can be tried for crimes- but if the crimes are minor, can the ruler retain their position?

[DeltaEmil]

Why would she be neutral instead of good?
Then again, people also claim that Vaarsuvius must be evil after the stunt with the fiends, or that Belkar ought to be neutral instead of evil.

[Dark Matter]

Shojo had proven to be acting above the Law, lying everyone and working behind the back of the Paladins. Thus deposing him was justified, and Hinjo was Ok with it. More than that, Hinjo was the first to propose that Shojo had to be deposed.*We don't know if the government answers to the order of paladins or the other way around. Considering that Shojo isn't a paladin, I'd suspect the later... but this might also be a mix. I.e. he's in charge but they're a sort of Praetorian guard.

And him not being a Paladin is interesting from a number of stand points. It means that he might be able to work behind their backs without breaking the law. It also means that lying to everyone might actually also be legal.

The only thing he did that we have good reason to think was "illegal" was fixing the trial... except since the charges might have also been trumped up by him, it's not even clear that this was all that bad.

Hinjo pointed out that the only thing the Guard had against Roy was breaking an oath that he never made. It's possible that if we'd had a chance to hold Shojo's actions up under a microscope something similar could have been determined. This is part of what made Miko so nuts. She killed him in no small part because he wasn't lawful, but in her world to be un-lawful is the same as being "evil".

[hamishspence]

Why would she be neutral instead of good?
Then again, people also claim that Vaarsuvius must be evil after the stunt with the fiends, or that Belkar ought to be neutral instead of evil.

In V's case, possibly because Familicide, having killed 1/4 of an intelligent species, may qualify as genocide- a act so evil, in BoVD, as to be capable of leaving serious permanent effects on the world.

The Giant also characterizes it as genocide in DStP.

In Belkar's case, it's a bit harder to understand given the amount of evidence of his evilness.

For Miko to be Neutral instead of Good after Falling, is not that implausible.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, those debates would be a lot more simpler if people simply admited "I hate Miko and thus I find fitting to label her as Evil".

Same happens with Vaarsuvius. Most of us were disgusted by the Familicide affair and thus found convenient to label hir as "Evil". I fell to it for a while, too.

Same happens with Belkar. Some find him funny and like him, thus do not want to have him labeled as "evil".

Same happens with all characters, and real persons. If we like them, we tend to judge them lightly. We overlook and justify their screw-ups and negative traits, and overrate their positive ones. If we dislike them, we judge them as harsh as we can. We neglect their positive traits and overrate their negative ones.

I don't like Miko. She was a character designed to be hated, after all. Rich made her to show how a Paladin must not be played. I have suffered similar Paladin types, too. Most of us have. Some even may have played as them.

However, wanting to label as "Evil" a character we don't like, is going too far.

[LuisDantas]

There are 3 normal reasons for an act causing a paladin to fall.

The act was a gross breach of the paladin's code.

The act was the final act that led to the paladin changing alignment.

The act was an evil act.

It was clearly and evil act, regardless of how much she could be excused for sincerely believing that Shojo was evil. After all, she had no reasonable claim to act as judge and executioner.

I don't particularly believe she changed alignment at that time. It would be too much of a coincidence, frankly. Alignment change is a deep-seated event and I don't see it happening that instantly. For all I know she had been True Neutral for years already before even meeting the Order of the Stick, and was only playing nominally good behavior out of habit and lack of sufficient provocation to do otherwise. In fact, I personally think that is the most natural reading of the comics.

Of course, that goes against the rule that "Paladins must be LG", but I don't see that as a real problem. Rules are often over-ruled by narrative convenience and by world-specific needs, and I feel that both exceptions apply here. The 12 Gods are simply not too strict about their Paladin's alignments, or perhaps they are too attached to their subject's past achievements and react slowly when their aligment change, far as I can tell.

And yes, it was indeed a gross breach of the Paladin's code to kill Shojo in the spot. Then again, Miko had only the slightest of claims to even understanding the basics of that code to begin with.

She was lucky to not have commited some other such serious breach of the Code earlier. I guess that she realized that subconsciously and for that reason she was often so uptight and inflexible; deep down she realized that left to her own, spontaneous behavior she would simply not remain a Paladin for long. Heck, she even called that inflexibility of hers a "class feature".

[Procyonpi]

In V's case, possibly because Familicide, having killed 1/4 of an intelligent species, may qualify as genocide- a act so evil, in BoVD, as to be capable of leaving serious permanent effects on the world.

The Giant also characterizes it as genocide in DStP.

In Belkar's case, it's a bit harder to understand given the amount of evidence of his evilness.

For Miko to be Neutral instead of Good after Falling, is not that implausible.

People think Belkar is Neutral because:
1. He's Funny. And of course funny people CAN'T be evil.
2. A lot of people play their supposedly Chaotic Neutral characters like Belkar. They figure that since they're a PC they can get away with just about anything. Of course, such behavior is pretty objectively chaotic evil, but that doesn't stop them.

[LuisDantas]

Well, those debates would be a lot more simpler if people simply admited "I hate Miko and thus I find fitting to label her as Evil".

By the same token, they would also be a lot simpler if Miko's advocated did not insist on claiming that we have little or no reason to think so. Since they do, we must keep reminding them of our reasons.


In V's case, possibly because Familicide, having killed 1/4 of an intelligent species, may qualify as genocide- a act so evil, in BoVD, as to be capable of leaving serious permanent effects on the world.

The Giant also characterizes it as genocide in DStP.

What distresses me is that the Giant even had to mention the matter. The webcomics itself was clear to the point of actually depicting unhatched eggs being destroyed by Familicide.


Cutting his throat in his sleep is not the only way of executing him (although Roy is being a hypocryte again, as he had no problem in beheading sleeping goblins :smallamused: - but then again, they were green and had fangs, while Belkar does not), and Roy is quick in pulling the wool over the Deva.

Belkar was not knowingly working as a soldier for a Lich bent on world domination, now was he? :smalltongue:

[Godskook]

Miko had good reason to conclude that he was Evil and working with Xykon, and also had good reason to conclude that he was likely to rig his own trial.

No she didn't.

[The Pilgrim]

After Miko's accusations of treason- conspiring with Xykon, etc, Hinjo does propose putting him under arrest- but it's not clear whether he would have been restored to the hereditary role of ruler of the city, had he been tried and found innocent on those particular charges.

Well, it's doubtful he had been allowed to retain rule of the City after admiting to have been faking a mental illness to fool everyone for decades. And after admiting to have been bending the rules and working above the Law, including sending one of his minions to perform an illegal detention and then rigging a trial by making everyone think the jury was a being of pure Law and Good, when it was in fact the accused's father.

Also, knowing the power that nobles like Kubota had in the city, it's doubtful they had allowed him to rise back.

Anyway, that's matter for another debate.

[Dark Matter]

Why would she be neutral instead of good?Because she always seemed to be a lot more concerned with the letter of the law rather than it's effects. Any violation of the law, be it ripping off a mattress tag or fixing a trial, is evil by definition.

That's not LG, that's LN.

[The Pilgrim]

We don't know if the government answers to the order of paladins or the other way around. Considering that Shojo isn't a paladin, I'd suspect the later... but this might also be a mix. I.e. he's in charge but they're a sort of Praetorian guard.

They are two different things. In fact the existence of the Shappire Guard is not official. Shojo is the ruler of the city and also the head of the Shappire Guard, but that's all.


And him not being a Paladin is interesting from a number of stand points. It means that he might be able to work behind their backs without breaking the law. It also means that lying to everyone might actually also be legal.

The only thing he did that we have good reason to think was "illegal" was fixing the trial... except since the charges might have also been trumped up by him, it's not even clear that this was all that bad.

So, illegal detention followed by rigging a trial. You know, Nixon had to quit for less than that.

[k_bukie]

Roy was judged good in the afterlife because he was trying to do the right thing.

Miko fell because she was doing what she thought was right, which is not the same thing, and an important distinction. Doing what you think is right is not necessarily a good act.

[hamishspence]

So, illegal detention followed by rigging a trial. You know, Nixon had to quit for less than that.

Shojo isn't an elected official- he's a hereditary monarch.


They are two different things. In fact the existence of the Shappire Guard is not official. Shojo is the ruler of the city and also the head of the Shappire Guard, but that's all.

The existance of the Sapphire Guard as an organization dedicated to protecting the gates isn't official.

However, in War & XPs, paladins violating the borders of other nations are referred to as "members of the Lord's staff"

So paladins as part of Shojo's staff may be official, even if the organization itself isn't.

[The Pilgrim]

Roy was judged good in the afterlife because he was trying to do the right thing.

Miko fell because she was doing what she thought was right, which is not the same thing, and an important distinction. Doing what you think is right is not necessarily a good act.

If Roy had been a Paladin, he would have fallen long ago.

Since the moment he allowed an Evil character into his party, for instance.

Or when he lied to some party members to enlist them in the Quest fo the Starmetal.

Or when he left Elan to the Thieves (through he may have attoned later, since he acknowelded his fault and worked to correct it)

Or when he faked to be a King.

Or when he learned that the Lord of the City was a liar who was fooling everyone and had rigged his trial, and was ok with it and willing to work for him.

Paladins have higher standards than regular LG characters. That's why they are Paladins, after all.

[The Pilgrim]

The existance of the Sapphire Guard as an organization dedicated to protecting the gates isn't official.

However, in War & XPs, paladins violating the borders of other nations are referred to as "members of the Lord's staff"

So paladins as part of Shojo's staff may be official, even if the organization itself isn't.

Sure. That would be the easier way to justify their presence near the Monarch, and the authority he confers them.

However, quite possible they had no official status beyond that. I mean, legally speaking a new Lord could dismiss them all and hire a new bodyguard.

[hamishspence]

Which is one of the reasons I think lying to them, may not have been a crime under Azure City law. Even faking senility- given that he remained in power- so being senile is not something can be be removed for.

The arrest of the Order was "on behalf of the Sapphire Guard" rather than "on behalf of the city"- making me wonder if it's a case of all the Sapphire Guard's activities only being "legal" because they are sanctioned by the city Lord, rather than any intrinsic authority the Sapphire Guard has.

If the Lord can sanction such things (intrusions into the territory of other nations, arrest and detention of foreign nationals) maybe, despite the fact that "the ruler is not above the law" it would be very hard to charge Shojo with anything short of direct treason against the city.

[Coplantor]

Well, those debates would be a lot more simpler if people simply admited "I hate Miko and thus I find fitting to label her as Evil".

Same happens with Vaarsuvius. Most of us were disgusted by the Familicide affair and thus found convenient to label hir as "Evil". I fell to it for a while, too.

Same happens with Belkar. Some find him funny and like him, thus do not want to have him labeled as "evil".

Same happens with all characters, and real persons. If we like them, we tend to judge them lightly. We overlook and justify their screw-ups and negative traits, and overrate their positive ones. If we dislike them, we judge them as harsh as we can. We neglect their positive traits and overrate their negative ones.

I don't like Miko. She was a character designed to be hated, after all. Rich made her to show how a Paladin must not be played. I have suffered similar Paladin types, too. Most of us have. Some even may have played as them.

However, wanting to label as "Evil" a character we don't like, is going too far.

So we call evil those characters we dont like? OK, take my example, I loved the Miko charactern and V is probably my favourite OotS character, and story wise I loved the familicide moment, it was a very inresting moment in the character development.

Yet I have no problem saying that after all, Miko commited evil acts and moved to LN or probably even LE. V is clearly not good and never was, it was LN from the start and after contemplating his slow but increasing aproach to LE (familicide was EVIL! not evil) after the pact with the devils, started to atone and now is back in LN grounds.

Belkar is evil, the comic relef, but evil.

[hamishspence]

Yes- the closest thing to evidence that V was ever good, was strip 11 (where V is "overwhelmed by pure evil"- suggesting that V was sickened by unholy blight, which only happens to Good characters)

Still, this can be taken as being before the characters started to develop.

Aside from that, V's outlook has always seemed more Neutral than Good.

I'm not so sure about the Law/Chaos axis- cases can be made for either.

[Coplantor]

Indeed, after checking my post I realized I'm not entirely sure about his lawfulness, but I'll just go with it untill further investigation is done. To the geek cave!

[BRC]

Paladins are held to a much higher standard than most classes, you need to remember that.

When killing Shojo Miko stepped clearly outside the bounds of Lawful alignment. Yes, alignment is not absolutes, but for paladins, it tends to be.

Calling the Order minions of Xykon: Nothing wrong with that, she was mistaken, but as the Deva said, it's the effort that coutns.

Accusing Shojo: See Above.
Killing Shojo: Highly Chaotic, she took justice into her own hands unnecessarily. She could just as easily had Shojo taken to the magistrates, instead, she killed him. There was no reason except that she did not trust the laws of Azure City, hence, Chaotic.


Also, as the most powerful paladin in the Sapphire Guard, she would certainly know that the Gate was on Shojo's throne (in fact we see later that she knows exactly that). By attacking Shojo on his throne, she was risking hitting, and therefore destroying, the Gate.

[The Pilgrim]

So we call evil those characters we dont like? OK, take my example, I loved the Miko charactern and V is probably my favourite OotS character, and story wise I loved the familicide moment, it was a very inresting moment in the character development.

Yet I have no problem saying that after all, Miko commited evil acts and moved to LN or probably even LE. V is clearly not good and never was, it was LN from the start and after contemplating his slow but increasing aproach to LE (familicide was EVIL! not evil) after the pact with the devils, started to atone and now is back in LN grounds.

Belkar is evil, the comic relef, but evil.

Miko was LG from the start and this is unquestionable: She was a Paladin. We can agree that she was LG with strong LN tendencies, but still LG.

Also, Miko couldn't possibly have fallen to LE, or any Evil aligment, after her Fall. She self-sacrified herself, and an Evil character would have never did so under any circunstance. A LN would have if Honor required it, but not an Evil.

So, in my opinion, the debate should be narrowed to two points:
- How strong was Miko's LN tendency before the Fall - while still being LG. Not much to debate here, really, it's clear and we even have Word of God that Miko had strong LN tendencies.
- If, after the fall, Miko was still LG, or had moved to a neutral aligment (in any or both axis), possibly (through not necessary) with G tendencies due to her self-sacrifice.

V, I was inclined to think it had moved to evil, or strong evil tendencies, after the Splice and the Familicide. However, in sight of hir posterior character developement, I think it is closer to Good than ever (wich doesn't means it is a Good character now).

[RMcMurtry]

Miko nearly fell before, at the end of the trial, had she killed the defenseless Belkar. The Giant said as much in W&XP.

[LuisDantas]

Miko was LG from the start and this is unquestionable: She was a Paladin. We can agree that she was LG with strong LN tendencies, but still LG.

Except that this is indeed very questionable. We don't even know that the 12 Gods (one of which isn't even Good) make a point of actually demanding their Paladins to be LG themselves. They may simply not follow standard D&D restrictions.

And it is not like we had someone reading Miko's alignment either. Her Paladinhood, in and of itself, is slight and questionable evidence. If that.

Miko was TN all the way. In all her known appearances, including perhaps any flashbacks.

She was likely LG once upon a time, at the very beginning, but she is just not the kind of person who knows how to keep an alignment once temptation presents itself.

[Morthis]

Well, those debates would be a lot more simpler if people simply admited "I hate Miko and thus I find fitting to label her as Evil".

I'm sure it has absolutely nothing to do with her killing Shojo, no not at all, clear LG act if ever I saw one.

I mean I agree Miko most certainly wasn't evil before her fall, and I doubt she was after. However, pretending that killing Shojo was not an evil act is just ridiculous.

[doodthedud]

Yes- the closest thing to evidence that V was ever good, was strip 11 (where V is "overwhelmed by pure evil"- suggesting that V was sickened by unholy blight, which only happens to Good characters)

Still, this can be taken as being before the characters started to develop.

Aside from that, V's outlook has always seemed more Neutral than Good.

I'm not so sure about the Law/Chaos axis- cases can be made for either.

V has the best interests of the world at heart, but hates laws that get in his way, that strikes me as NG, not LN

[Dark Matter]

So, illegal detention followed by rigging a trial. You know, Nixon had to quit for less than that.Yeah, but the abused party here in the OOTS... and if they want to screw him over they could have just let it be known that he wasn't senile.

The core of what he did was abuse the process. I.e. he fixed the trial to let an innocent party off, but that's still fixing the trial and if he can do it at all then it's a problem in general.


At first, she did. Later on she charged at Belkar again, presumably with killing intent. It is hard to compare the two situations, however, since on the one hand she had just lost her Paladinhood, and on the other hand she seemed sincerely convinced that Belkar was in questionable cahoots with Shojo at that point.Admittedly Belkar (with good reason) brings out the worst in people, but neither of those incidents translate into her being "good", just the opposite. Someone said that Giant has mentioned in War&XP that if she'd have killed Belkar the first time she would have fallen.

[TheYoungKing]

Well, those debates would be a lot more simpler if people simply admited "I hate Miko and thus I find fitting to label her as Evil".

Same happens with Vaarsuvius. Most of us were disgusted by the Familicide affair and thus found convenient to label hir as "Evil". I fell to it for a while, too.

Same happens with Belkar. Some find him funny and like him, thus do not want to have him labeled as "evil".

Same happens with all characters, and real persons. If we like them, we tend to judge them lightly. We overlook and justify their screw-ups and negative traits, and overrate their positive ones. If we dislike them, we judge them as harsh as we can. We neglect their positive traits and overrate their negative ones.

I don't like Miko. She was a character designed to be hated, after all. Rich made her to show how a Paladin must not be played. I have suffered similar Paladin types, too. Most of us have. Some even may have played as them.

However, wanting to label as "Evil" a character we don't like, is going too far.

I like Vaarsuvius. He still slipped into Evil with Familicide.

I liked Miko. She was definitely Lawful Evil by the End.

I like Belkar. He's definitely Chaotic Evil. Whether his actions may trend him in to Chaotic Neutral is hard to tell.

[hamishspence]

Also, Miko couldn't possibly have fallen to LE, or any Evil aligment, after her Fall. She self-sacrified herself, and an Evil character would have never did so under any circunstance. A LN would have if Honor required it, but not an Evil.

Two words. Darth. Vader.

After all, Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

[RMcMurtry]

Miko wasn't, on the other hand, rebelling against the hierarchy of the Saphire Guard. Since, lacking Shojo, she WAS the highest Shappire Guard officer in the room - and possibly the City.


No, she wasn't. She was the most POWERFUL member of the Sapphire Guard, but Shojo was still the lawful commander of the Guard. And after Shojo's murder, Hinjo was. As Shojo once told Roy, "I am commander of the paladins of the Sapphire Guard by virtue of my inheritance, not merit. I command the paladins... I have never claimed to be one."

[Gitman00]

Except that this is indeed very questionable. We don't even know that the 12 Gods (one of which isn't even Good) make a point of actually demanding their Paladins to be LG themselves. They may simply not follow standard D&D restrictions.

I don't think this is an assumption we can make at present. We know that the OOTSverse works according to D&D 3.5, and there is simply no evidence that the 12 Gods work contrary to that beyond an alternate interpretation of Miko's alignment. And with no evidence, we must fall back on what we know, namely that in D&D 3.5, paladins must be Lawful Good.

Now, what I can see is that she may have been Lawful Neutral in mindset, but she continued to do good acts out of habit, duty and pride, so her alignment remained Lawful Good.

[Mastikator]

Miko was always treading on the line between LG and N, and the final act pushed her all the way to evil.
The undeniable proof that she in fact was evil after murdering Shojo was that Roy's sword activated against her. A sword that only activates against evil creatures.

QED Miko is evil.

[hamishspence]

It said "deadly green energy that is particularly harmful to the undead"

so we can't be sure it's anti-evil.

Still, it flared up vs Xykon, Sabine, and Miko.

[Ancalagon]

A sword that only activates against evil creatures.

Where did you get that? We know it does special damage vs. undead. The "green glow" is something we have no idea about. I always assumed it was tied to Roy's rage.

Miko surely did not shift her alignment to evil (even if she did a very evil act), that'd be against everything and anything she has been in the comic. Remember: she did her evil act because she wanted to be "good" and "do the right thing".

[k_bukie]

If Roy had been a Paladin, he would have fallen long ago.

Since the moment he allowed an Evil character into his party, for instance.

Or when he lied to some party members to enlist them in the Quest fo the Starmetal.

Or when he left Elan to the Thieves (through he may have attoned later, since he acknowelded his fault and worked to correct it)

Or when he faked to be a King.

Or when he learned that the Lord of the City was a liar who was fooling everyone and had rigged his trial, and was ok with it and willing to work for him.

Paladins have higher standards than regular LG characters. That's why they are Paladins, after all.

However, my point was irrelevant to paladin/non paladin. My point was to point out the difference between actually being good and thinking you're being good.

[Mastikator]

Where did you get that? We know it does special damage vs. undead. The "green glow" is something we have no idea about. I always assumed it was tied to Roy's rage.

Miko surely did not shift her alignment to evil (even if she did a very evil act), that'd be against everything and anything she has been in the comic. Remember: she did her evil act because she wanted to be "good" and "do the right thing".

She has never shown any hint of wanting to do the right thing. She wants to kill, and she uses clever tricks to make it count as good for the circumstance.
When she first encountered the order, she said that they must surrender and be taken to a trial that will kill them, or die right away. Then when Roy responded with wanting an explanation, she interrupted him and started fighting, acting as if she interpreted that as a "I defy you", even if it obviously was not.
And that's just for starters. She was always interested in killing and causing mayhem, she is more like Belkar than anyone, except at least he has a sense of humor (though twisted it may be).

At her death, Soon even explained that she was only technically good and lawful, but not in spirit and not deserving of atonement.

[Ancalagon]

Very apprently all those things you cite were not evil. Or she had fallen much earlier.

[Darakonis]

There are 3 normal reasons for an act causing a paladin to fall.

The act was a gross breach of the paladin's code.

The act was the final act that led to the paladin changing alignment.

The act was an evil act.

(...)

Of these three categories- which do you think fit Miko best?

None! Miko is perfect! Rich is misinterpreting his own story! Miko is beyond reproach!

Miko is the epitome of a true Paladin: superior beings that--for the greater good--must rid the world of a certain type of people and enforce their worldview on the unenlightened masses--for the greater good.

If this happened in the real world, no one would consider it evil!

Oh, wait...

Peace,
-Darakonis

[The Pilgrim]

No, she wasn't. She was the most POWERFUL member of the Sapphire Guard, but Shojo was still the lawful commander of the Guard. And after Shojo's murder, Hinjo was. As Shojo once told Roy, "I am commander of the paladins of the Sapphire Guard by virtue of my inheritance, not merit. I command the paladins... I have never claimed to be one."

No, when Hinjo and Miko found about Shojo's deals, Miko claimed to be the highest RANKING, not the most powerful (wich she was also). If we belive her statement, she therefore had more authority than Hinjo to order the detention of Lord Shojo and to submit him to trial. She didn't failed to act lawful because she didn't follow Hinjo's orders, because she outranked him. And Shojo had proven to be a corrupt authority and Hinjo agreed with it.

She fails to act lawful there because she submits Shojo to a summary trial and decides to become prosecutor, judge, jury, and executioner. Hinjo on the other hand wants to submit him to a proper trial when things have cooled down, wich is proper lawful behaviour.

Note also that the detention, or death, of Shojo didn't automatically turn Hinjo into the proper, legal Lord of Azure City and thus commander of the Shappire Guard. That's what the crowning ceremony was for.

[The Pilgrim]

Miko was always treading on the line between LG and N, and the final act pushed her all the way to evil.
The undeniable proof that she in fact was evil after murdering Shojo was that Roy's sword activated against her. A sword that only activates against evil creatures.

QED Miko is evil.

No, Roy's sword acrivates when Roy is in RAGE.

And an Evil character would have never self-sacrified itself in the Throne Room, like Miko did.

[The Pilgrim]

Two words. Darth. Vader.

After all, Even Evil Has Loved Ones.

Well, if there is a way to mess a debate even more than citing Miko, it's Star Wars! :smallbiggrin:

I think it's pretty clear in Return of the Jedi that Darth Vader redeemed himself with that act. That's why he appears later as a Ghost alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan. He escaped the clutches of the Dark Side and was no longer Evil.

[Zevox]

I'm with the OP - it was all three. Gross violation, check; she just killed her Order's Lord. Evil, check; it was flat-out murder of unarmed and defenseless individual, and there's no way anyone could convince me that that isn't evil. Alignment change, I'd say so; I'm of the opinion that she was always borderline Lawful Neutral, and this pushed her over the edge. And a decent ways towards True Neutral at that, given it was also quite the chaotic act: "taking the law into her own hands" and acting as judge, jury, and executioner and all that.

Zevox

[Gitman00]

No, Roy's sword acrivates when Roy is in RAGE.

And an Evil character would have never self-sacrified itself in the Throne Room, like Miko did.

I dunno, I always assumed it was critical hits that activated it. Due to dramatic conventions, these usually happen when Roy is enraged.

[Querzis]

And an Evil character would have never self-sacrified itself in the Throne Room, like Miko did.

Of course they could. The villain sacrificing himself at the end is one of the oldest tricks in the books. I bet ten bucks Redcloak will do this eventually.

Anyway, she was always more LN then LG, she only remained LG because the sapphire guards always sent her alone against the evil guys, if she would have been in groups with other pally, I'm quite sure she would have killed one of them sooner or later for not being lawful enough too. Miko killed Shojo because he was chaotic, not even because she thought he was evil. For her, chaos=evil, if thats not LN I dont know what it is.

[TheYoungKing]

No, Roy's sword acrivates when Roy is in RAGE.

Roy is a straight Fighter. Gender belt jokes notwithstanding.

[Kish]

At her death, Soon even explained that she was only technically good and lawful, but not in spirit and not deserving of atonement.
Except for the part where all those lines are in the secret bonus strips that also explain that Roy's sword only activates against evil creatures.

[The Pilgrim]

I dunno, I always assumed it was critical hits that activated it. Due to dramatic conventions, these usually happen when Roy is enraged.

Could be, certainly.

[Dark Matter]

Except for the part where all those lines are in the secret bonus strips that also explain that Roy's sword only activates against evil creatures.Ouch!!! And I was thinking she fell just to LN or so.

But Belkar was right, she fell so hard she left cracks on the floor.

I think this means she picked up some bad karma from not only murdering her leader, but also from the whole "right before the dark army's invasion" thing as well.

It was just one evil act, but it might have been larger than the combined total of everything "good" she'd ever done before.

[The Pilgrim]

Of course they could. The villain sacrificing himself at the end is one of the oldest tricks in the books.

...as an act of redemption.

[The Pilgrim]

Ouch!!! And I was thinking she fell just to LN or so.

But Belkar was right, she fell so hard she left cracks on the floor.

I think this means she picked up some bad karma from not only murdering her leader, but also from the whole "right before the dark army's invasion" thing as well.

It was just one evil act, but it might have been larger than the combined total of everything "good" she'd ever done before.

I suggest to cast "Detect Sarcarsm" on Kish's assertion. :smallwink:

[Dark Matter]

I suggest to cast "Detect Sarcarsm" on Kish's assertion. :smallwink:My books pre-date Roy's sword's "greeness". Is there something which says it only goes green on evil creatures?

It's clearly not just the undead since we've also got Sabine.

[doodthedud]

My books pre-date Roy's sword's "greeness". Is there something which says it only goes green on evil creatures?

It's clearly not just the undead since we've also got Sabine.

"Particularly harmful against undead" but not only against them.

[Kish]

My books pre-date Roy's sword's "greeness". Is there something which says it only goes green on evil creatures?
No. As The Pilgrim suggested, I was being sarcastic.

[Dark Matter]

And an Evil character would have never self-sacrified itself in the Throne Room, like Miko did.The previous red-cloak did. He also said he hit the evil-radar.

Then we have Khan from the 2nd StarTrek movie.

Villains self-sacrifice when their hate (or pride) is larger than their desire to stay alive.

Occasionally we also see it if something they care about is at risk (typically their family), although granted, that's usually portrayed as "redemption".

Tony Soprano might take a bullet to protect his daughter.
If he dies then he might have a dying speech about reforming.
But if he lives then he's going to do something really nasty to whoever pulled the trigger.

[Ancalagon]

Roy is a straight Fighter. Gender belt jokes notwithstanding.

He is. But it seems to be a feature of the sword.

It cannot activate due to evil, as Miko was not evil. But in all three cases he was angry and we never saw it happen when he was not angry, so the critical-theory is dead.

[BRC]

And an Evil character would have never self-sacrified itself in the Throne Room, like Miko did.
Alignment is indicated by Actions. It does not dictate actions.
Miko didn't kill Shojo because she was evil, her alignment shifted to evil when she killed Shojo.

Or kind of. Alignment is a messed up system anyway.

[Ancalagon]

Alignment is indicated by Actions. It does not dictate actions.
Miko didn't kill Shojo because she was evil, her alignment shifted to evil when she killed Shojo.

Who said the alignment shifted? She commited an evil act but one evil act does not have to make you evil. Especially if you commit that act out of good intentions (as mislead as she was, she DID have good intentions!)

[Procyonpi]

None! Miko is perfect! Rich is misinterpreting his own story! Miko is beyond reproach!
-Darakonis

lol. It's funny how polarizing Miko is, isn't it?

[Ancalagon]

lol. It's funny how polarizing Miko is, isn't it?

No, those who don't agree with my position are simply and plainly wrong and fail to simply admit that!!1 ;)

[Gitman00]

He is. But it seems to be a feature of the sword.

It cannot activate due to evil, as Miko was not evil. But in all three cases he was angry and we never saw it happen when he was not angry, so the critical-theory is dead.

Meh, it's still ambiguous. Because it's a work of fiction and not an actual D&D campaign, critical hits happen when dramatically appropriate, not according to random die-rolls. It might be anger-induced, it might happen on a critical hit, it might be something else entirely. Roy cut off the blacksmith when she was explaining it, so we may never know.

[The Pilgrim]

The previous red-cloak did. He also said he hit the evil-radar.

Then we have Khan from the 2nd StarTrek movie.

Villains self-sacrifice when their hate (or pride) is larger than their desire to stay alive.

Occasionally we also see it if something they care about is at risk (typically their family), although granted, that's usually portrayed as "redemption".

If my memory serves, Khan was mortally wounded anyway and only "self-sacrifices" to take the good guys with him. So... If Miko had killed herself in order to take the Order with her, your example might qualify.

Instead, she gave her life to avoid a Gate falling into Evil hands. There where no such strong emotions like "killing her hated ones" or "saving her loved ones" involved. She understood that fulfilling her duty involved self-sacrificing herself to destroy the Gate, and went for it. LG or LN at most.

[TheYoungKing]

I think it's pretty clear in Return of the Jedi that Darth Vader redeemed himself with that act. That's why he appears later as a Ghost alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan. He escaped the clutches of the Dark Side and was no longer Evil.

Until the digital edit.

Then his ghost was pure evil.

[DeltaEmil]

What digital edit? There was no digital editing of "Star Wars", "Star Wars: The Empire strikes back' and "Star Wars: Return of the Jedi".

Lalalalala... :smallsigh:

[Querzis]

Instead, she gave her life to avoid a Gate falling into Evil hands.

No she did it out of pride. She thought she was on a divine mission and could do no wrong. She destroyed the gate despite the fact that one look around should have been enough to tell that Soon was about to destroy the last threat to the gate. She did it because she thought she was the most important person around, the chosen of the gods, and that there could be no other reason why the gods would have brought her to the throne room.

[The Pilgrim]

Until the digital edit.

Then his ghost was pure evil.

Point taken.

Damn it, Lucas.

[The Pilgrim]

No she did it out of pride. She thought she was on a divine mission and could do no wrong. She destroyed the gate despite the fact that one look around should have been enough to tell that Soon was about to destroy the last threat to the gate. She did it because she thought she was the most important person around, the chosen of the gods, and that there could be no other reason why the gods would have brought her to the throne room.

Nothing of this contradicts having a LG alignment, actually.

[Dark Matter]

If my memory serves, Khan was mortally wounded anyway and only "self-sacrifices" to take the good guys with him. Khan lived a long time after he hit the switch, and he even took a long time to pull the switch.

The problem with saying 'only good guys self sacrifice' is many bad guys consider themselves good guys.

Further it's not even relevant for a Miko discussion since we're not sure if she knew the explosion was going to be that big. Personally I'd thought the big-bang from the previous one was from that rune. Further in SOD...The explosion was a lot less.

[The Pilgrim]

None! Miko is perfect! Rich is misinterpreting his own story! Miko is beyond reproach!

Well, do you know what really puzzles me when people argues that Miko was LE (or even LN)?

That it totally kills the Author's purpose about this character.

Rich conceived Miko to be an example of how a Paladin shouldn't be played. More so, as an example of how the LG aligment, and the whole alignment system, shouldn't be understood.

By saying that the problem with Miko is that she was just LE (or LN), is to submit the whole matter to disneyfication. Suddently, the problem stops being that Miko was "playing" her class and aligment wrong. The problems stops being that she was taking the aligment as a closed jacket. No, the problem suddently becomes that she was just "playing" a different alignment all along!

But, no! Miko was LG the whole time. The greatness of her history is that it shows how you can be playing a LG and still screw up Epically doing much more harm than good for understanding the alignment system wrong.

[Procyonpi]

Until the digital edit.

Then his ghost was pure evil.

Uggh... Hayden... Cristensen... Makes... Me... So... ANGRY!

[veti]

Miko had been seen chafing against her orders before. When Shojo ordered her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0290.html) to bring the OOTS in alive, she sighed, but accepted the order. More tellingly, when he instructed her to stop fighting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html) in the throne room, she was seriously unhappy about it - but still accepted the order. :miko: "For I am a paladin..." - and paladins, whatever else they do, follow orders.

When she overhears Shojo, she has three choices. The Lawful Stupid option would be to pretend nothing had changed, and keep taking Mr Scruffy's orders as relayed by Shojo. The Lawful Reasonable option is presented explicitly by Hinjo - to follow proper procedures in accordance with the rules of her order. She rejects both of these, in favour of the Chaotic option - "do what you think is best, regardless of any legal framework or rules". It's the first time she's ever directly, deliberately broken a lawful order.

In my opinion, it's that aspect - wilfully breaking a direct order - that ensures her Fall. The moment she does that, the Twelve Gods know for sure that she can't be trusted with paladin powers, so they revoke them. Simple as that.

[Deme]

Well, do you know what really puzzles me when people argues that Miko was LE (or even LN)?

That it totally kills the Author's purpose about this character.

Rich conceived Miko to be an example of how a Paladin shouldn't be played. More so, as an example of how the LG aligment, and the whole alignment system, shouldn't be understood.

By saying that the problem with Miko is that she was just LE (or LN), is to submit the whole matter to disneyfication. Suddently, the problem stops being that Miko was "playing" her class and aligment wrong. The problems stops being that she was taking the aligment as a closed jacket. No, the problem suddently becomes that she was just "playing" a different alignment all along!

But, no! Miko was LG the whole time. The greatness of her history is that it shows how you can be playing a LG and still screw up Epically doing much more harm than good for understanding the alignment system wrong.

Reading the commentary in War and XPs, I got the implication that she did shift alignment after the Shojo thing -- but not because of the Shojo thing alone, so much as the fact that the Shojo thing happened after years of being LG and a Paladin the wrong way. He mentioned that it was just dramatic convienence that the big shift happened now, over such a big thing, than over something minor. So I think she wasn't LG the whole time, but she was LG up until the Shojo thing -- she was just so bad at it that a single significant act could make the difference, and that she never really noticed how close she came to the edge or how far over it she went, because she didn't understand what being LG should be.

[Acero]

He is. But it seems to be a feature of the sword.

It cannot activate due to evil, as Miko was not evil. But in all three cases he was angry and we never saw it happen when he was not angry, so the critical-theory is dead.

How so? Nothing states that Roy didn't roll a 20......
:smallsigh:

[RMcMurtry]

Up until she killed Shojo, I'd agree that she was LG--but, as the Giant notes, skating on the edge. In that act, however, she shifted. The act was chaotic evil--rebelling against legitimate authority and murdering a defenseless old man. I don't think she dropped all the way to evil, though she was certainly on her way. Sabine sensed it. At the time of her death, I think she was LN. Possibly TN.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Ignoring the law is Chaotic, not Evil. It was most certainly a Chaotic act.Killing an unarmed and defenseless old man isn't just against the law, it is an evil act.

But really: Does it matter? Miko fell because Rich wanted to illustrate a Paladin falling within his story. In any given D&D game she may have fallen earlier or later, depending on how the GM ruled on her actions. The Paladin rules basically just suck across the board, they invite GMs to invoke them, and this leads to a very lame role play experience for all.

[Procyonpi]

Killing an unarmed and defenseless old man isn't just against the law, it is an evil act.

But really: Does it matter? Miko fell because Rich wanted to illustrate a Paladin falling within his story. In any given D&D game she may have fallen earlier or later, depending on how the GM ruled on her actions. The Paladin rules basically just suck across the board, they invite GMs to invoke them, and this leads to a very lame role play experience for all.

It was more than just wanting to illustrate a paladin falling. Miko's character was specifically created as an example of how NOT to play a Paladin, and had been intended to fall from the very beginning. (looking for the link to that post right now)

[BillyJimBoBob]

The problem with saying 'only good guys self sacrifice' is many bad guys consider themselves good guys.The issue with this is that it applies very well in real life. And not at all in D&D, where alignment is a measurable attribute. In D&D even trivial magics will completely erase the common trope of the evil character who thinks that he is doing good while actually serving an evil end.

Miko had access to magics which would have given her the insight necessary to act differently, and correctly. This is why she fell. She had clear alternatives and chose to ignore them.

[BillyJimBoBob]

It was more than just wanting to illustrate a paladin falling. Miko's character was specifically created as an example of how NOT to play a Paladin, and had been intended to fall from the very beginning. (looking for the link to that post right now)I do not disagree with Rich's illustration of a Paladin falling. I just think that the issue is terribly vague within the D&D rules and that it invites conflict in should be a fun pastime for the players and the GM.

[Scarlet Knight]

I just think that the issue is terribly vague within the D&D rules and that it invites conflict in should be a fun pastime for the players and the GM.

In practical use, the vagueness allows the DM flexibility to adjust the rule to his game, whether for plot hook purpose or to keep a player in line.

[Torick]

For the record, I consider it to be a gross breach of her Paladin's Code, not an Evil act (though a Chaotic act) and her alignment to still be Lawful Good afterwards.

(This is a splinter from another thread where I've been arguing this)

I agree completely.

From Miko's standpoint, she just witnessed her lord admitting to a whole lot of shady business, and she was probably legitimately acting on the notion that she was saving Azure City from its corrupt leadership.

Problem is, that's Chaotic Good - a Paladin's on shaky ground when they decide the back out on their oaths on the basis that circumstances have changed (perhaps particularly so when they happen to be bizarrely wrong).

[LuisDantas]

Where did you get that? We know it does special damage vs. undead. The "green glow" is something we have no idea about. I always assumed it was tied to Roy's rage.

Miko surely did not shift her alignment to evil (even if she did a very evil act), that'd be against everything and anything she has been in the comic. Remember: she did her evil act because she wanted to be "good" and "do the right thing".

Uh... so did Redcloak. Repeatedly.

People usually turn evil while wanting to "do the right thing", I'm afraid.

[LuisDantas]

No, when Hinjo and Miko found about Shojo's deals, Miko claimed to be the highest RANKING, not the most powerful (wich she was also). If we belive her statement, she therefore had more authority than Hinjo to order the detention of Lord Shojo and to submit him to trial.

I don't think even Miko herself made such a claim, which is also in direct contradiction of several strips that recognize that the political authority of Azure City went from Shojo to Hinjo, not Miko.

In fact, even Miko herself recognized Hinjo's authority, albeit just for a few moments.



She didn't failed to act lawful because she didn't follow Hinjo's orders, because she outranked him. And Shojo had proven to be a corrupt authority and Hinjo agreed with it.

What are you basing these claims on? Not #406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), I hope. Nor in any other strips that I know about. Miko wanted to believe that she was favored by the 12 Gods above Hinjo and, well, anyone else. And she apparently was the highest-level Azure City Paladin at that time.

But that is all. She was quite outside the political system of Azure City, and in fact was consistently portrayed as one of Shojo's subjects, much like O-Chul and even Hinjo himself. I just don't see how one could conclude that she outranked Shojo in a political sense. Even her own claim was a theological one, not a political one.

[LuisDantas]

He is. But it seems to be a feature of the sword.

It cannot activate due to evil, as Miko was not evil. But in all three cases he was angry and we never saw it happen when he was not angry, so the critical-theory is dead.

Again, we do not know that Miko was not evil, particularly after her fall. She probably was not worse than Chaotic Neutral, if only because with so many Paladins around she would probably eventually be targeted by a Detect Evil gone amiss, but not even that is quite certain.

As for the Greenhilt Greatsword, so far we simply do not know what exactly activates the green flame effect. It is supposed to be particularly effective against undead, and it activated against Xykon (and to a lesser extent, also against Miko and Sabine), but we lack enough data to decide whether that is due to critical hits, Roy's anger, presence of an Evil opponent or something else. It may even be a purely random effect; the swordsmith certainly did not claim otherwise.

[The Pilgrim]

What are you basing these claims on? Not #406 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0406.html), I hope. Nor in any other strips that I know about.

Says so specifically in the third panel of the strip you just linked, counting backwards from the Last. Thanks for saving me the bother to link it myself.

What part of "as the highest-ranking paladin of the Shappire Guard, I find you guilty of Treason" did you fail to understand? Gosh, that sentence alone is good grounds to claim Miko was still playing Lawful.

Also, nowere in that strip or the following others, does Miko acknowelde Hinjo as her superior, like you claim.

[Dark Matter]

Again, we do not know that Miko was not evil, particularly after her fall. She probably was not worse than Chaotic Neutral, if only because with so many Paladins around she would probably eventually be targeted by a Detect Evil gone amiss, but not even that is quite certain.It wouldn't matter if she were evil. Normal Paladins don't run around killing everything that hits the radar as evil, and Miko was in a cell for the period of time when it mattered. Further Miko, as a freshly fallen Paladin who didn't want to do evil, would be a prime candidate for redemption.

[DeltaEmil]

Normal paladins kill goblin children, or try to get their dwarven cleric party member get killed because they don't like their attitude, and want to kill orcs visiting a rock concert because it brings xp, booting their fighter out for denying them such, or abandon their bardic squires, or kill an old man.

Normal as in, the norm so far in any Order of the Stick-strip.

[Mastikator]

Very apprently all those things you cite were not evil. Or she had fallen much earlier.

No. Because like I also said, she created a situation where she could claim plausible deniability and get away with defying her master's direct orders.
All so she could get the pleasure of killing them herself.

Later in the comic, before her fall, she even admitted to praying for the opportunity of killing the order with her bare hands, and fantasizing about their blood splattering over her face. Because it would feel so great.

[veti]

No. Because like I also said, she created a situation where she could claim plausible deniability and get away with defying her master's direct orders.

Defying Shojo's orders was one thing - at that point, she had plausible reason to hold him in grave suspicion. That was fair enough. But she also defied the rules and procedures of her own order, which she was sworn to uphold even if its head was personally disgraced. Hinjo pointed out the correct thing to do next, but she ignored him. It's kind of like if a president is impeached, that doesn't mean "there are no laws and everyone can suddenly do whatever seems best to them".


Later in the comic, before her fall, she even admitted to praying for the opportunity of killing the order with her bare hands, and fantasizing about their blood splattering over her face. Because it would feel so great.

Err... when? I can't find that bit at all.

[Zevox]

Err... when? I can't find that bit at all.
I believe he was referring to her parting comment in comic 285 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html), at the end of the trial.

Zevox

[hamishspence]

The issue with this is that it applies very well in real life. And not at all in D&D, where alignment is a measurable attribute. In D&D even trivial magics will completely erase the common trope of the evil character who thinks that he is doing good while actually serving an evil end.


Several D&D sourcebooks contain examples of this trope, so "trivial magics" can't completely erase it.

Usually, the evil character in these cases is a bit Miko-esque- refusing to admit they have fallen, thinking that it's all just a test by the gods.

Michael Ambrose in Tome of Magic is the most notable example.



I think it's pretty clear in Return of the Jedi that Darth Vader redeemed himself with that act. That's why he appears later as a Ghost alongside Yoda and Obi-Wan. He escaped the clutches of the Dark Side and was no longer Evil.

That's the point. I think of it as: Vader was an Evil character, who committed an act so good (self-sacrifice to destroy another evil being and save the galaxy from him) as to change his alignment- making him no longer Evil.

But he was still an Evil character committing an act of self-sacrifice.

[Ancalagon]

How so? Nothing states that Roy didn't roll a 20......
:smallsigh:

Stop your smallsighing. If you want to annoy me, don't pretend you want to talk about some topic.

Theory A) The green glow is activated by criticals and the plot makes sure those criticals are rolled ONLY in cases when Roy makes his rage-strike vs. a special opponent and also makes sure we do not see ANY other criticals on his side as well, as that would ruin the plot-impact of those strikes.
We have no support for that theory but that it would be an "explanation"; we have the counterarguement that it's unlikely Roy suddenly lost his ability to strike criticals in normal fights.

Theory B) The sword does a special attack when the wielder wants it (activates it willingly) or is somehow activated in a special condiation (rage, in this case).
We have it on good theory that Roy was in all cases pretty ragy when the green glow appeared and it only appeared when he was "emotionally involved".

I find Theory A) much worse than Theory B). Please explain to me why Theory A) is more likely than Theory B). Maybe you can convince me so I understand why my approach is so stupid that you even have to address me with a :smallsigh:.

[LuisDantas]

Says so specifically in the third panel of the strip you just linked, counting backwards from the Last. Thanks for saving me the bother to link it myself.

What part of "as the highest-ranking paladin of the Shappire Guard, I find you guilty of Treason" did you fail to understand? Gosh, that sentence alone is good grounds to claim Miko was still playing Lawful.

Also, nowere in that strip or the following others, does Miko acknowelde Hinjo as her superior, like you claim.

And to boot, the previous panel has Miko herself explicitly claiming that "The Laws have no meaning (...)" and that "Only Honor and the laws of the gods matter now". Her claim is, in many ways, akin to that of a psychopath who believes himself to have been ordered by God to kill people.

That is why I linked to #406. Because it makes abundantly clear that Miko is creating a fantasy in an attempt to justify her deeds. No one else ever hinted that she could outrank Shojo in a legal matter, be it before or after that incident. Nor would such a claim fit with anything else that we have learned about how Azure City works. Heck, it was Shojo himself who ordered Miko around all the time. So much for "outranking".

She was indeed playing Lawful Good, to be sure. Miko was very adept at self-deception. The most natural interpretation of her whole career is that she has been lying to herself about her alignment for years, with great success.

[LuisDantas]

It wouldn't matter if she were evil. Normal Paladins don't run around killing everything that hits the radar as evil, and Miko was in a cell for the period of time when it mattered. Further Miko, as a freshly fallen Paladin who didn't want to do evil, would be a prime candidate for redemption.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are attempting to say. You're defending the case for Miko being capable of redemption, I suppose? I don't see how. As Soon all but explicitly said, she was not even trying to admit that she needed redemption.

[pjackson]

The Paladin rules basically just suck across the board, they invite GMs to invoke them, and this leads to a very lame role play experience for all.

No they don't.
IME they are easy and fun to keep. So much so that I often follow them even when not playing paladins, or even D&D.
I know there are players who they don't suit. Particularly the sort of player who always chooses to play Chaotic Neutral and uses that to justify doing anything he feels like. Such players of spoil the game for me.

The rules are also fairly close to the source that inspired the class - Three Heats and Three Lions by Poul Andersson.

[hamishspence]

I've read that. One of the things I liked was the guys method of dealing with a family of suspected werewolves- don't just "kill them all to be safe" but investigate.

Even when the werewolf in the family is identified, the hero is aware that, in this case, the monthly transformation only works in a high-magic area- send the werewolf away from it, and she'll not be a danger to others. So he has her sent away from the region, rather than killed.

[RMcMurtry]

Killing an unarmed and defenseless old man isn't just against the law, it is an evil act.

But really: Does it matter? Miko fell because Rich wanted to illustrate a Paladin falling within his story. In any given D&D game she may have fallen earlier or later, depending on how the GM ruled on her actions. The Paladin rules basically just suck across the board, they invite GMs to invoke them, and this leads to a very lame role play experience for all.

If what's fun for the player is being able to do what he wants when he wants with no restraints other than his own internal logic, paladin really isn't the class for him. For that matter, she'd probably have more fun with a chaotic character. For a player that's willing to accept the requirements of the class, paladin can be very rewarding.

[KiwiImperator]

My understanding of the affair was that Miko was a creature accustomed to seeing the world in black and white, thrust into a full-color situation, and forced to make decisions based on subtle ethical dilemmas she had never seriously encountered. A Paladin finds something evil doing something evil... And kills it. Simple as that. They don't hold trials for goblins, why hold them for tyrants? If she had been RIGHT about Shojo, then she would've just been doing her job as usual. Her mistake was that Shojo wasn't Evil, he was just Chaotic.

[hamishspence]

My understanding of the affair was that Miko was a creature accustomed to seeing the world in black and white, thrust into a full-color situation, and forced to make decisions based on subtle ethical dilemmas she had never seriously encountered. A Paladin finds something evil doing something evil... And kills it. Simple as that. They don't hold trials for goblins, why hold them for tyrants? If she had been RIGHT about Shojo, then she would've just been doing her job as usual.

That's the thing though- do paladins work that way? Is a paladin entitled to kill anyone they believe to be doing evil, without a trial?

[Ancalagon]

That's the thing though- do paladins work that way? Is a paladin entitled to kill anyone they believe to be doing evil, without a trial?

Simple answer: no.

That's a common misconception of how paladins work - and Rich used Miko to show such a badly-played paladin and constrasted that with "well played" paladins as Hinjo and O-Chul.

That we even have to discuss about that after people read this comic shows that some people don't get it. And won't ever get it as Rich made the point in a much better and clearer way as we here in such a discussion could.

It's as much about paladin's as it is about the players who play paladins (in the wrong way).

[hamishspence]

It may partly be due to changes in the way Detect Evil works.

In editions prior to 3.0, a creature could be evil without pinging on Detect Evil. In these cases, only Know Alignment would show them as evil.

Beings that pinged on Detect Evil were always monsters, or exceptionally villainous members of player races.

This might be how "Detect = Smite" came into being.

In 3.0 and 3.5, they dropped this- but some players still seem to assume it's like 2nd and 1st ed- if it pings, it's "fair game"

In Basic D&D, Detect Evil only detected hostile intent. If your enemy was a hero who has been lead to believe you are a villain, that hero would detect as Evil to you.

[The Pilgrim]

And to boot, the previous panel has Miko herself explicitly claiming that "The Laws have no meaning (...)" and that "Only Honor and the laws of the gods matter now". Her claim is, in many ways, akin to that of a psychopath who believes himself to have been ordered by God to kill people.

Except that in the OOTS universe they have material proof that the Gods exist, so you can be actually following their orders.

She claims that the Laws of the city have no meaning (since they are corrupt), and the next statement implies she still cares for Laws - of the Gods, who obviously override the laws of a City. Caring for Honor and City laws is pretty Lawful in my book.


That is why I linked to #406. Because it makes abundantly clear that Miko is creating a fantasy in an attempt to justify her deeds.

Wich would be very informative in a debate about mental stable vs insane, but means little in a debate about Lawful vs Chaos and Good vs Evil... except for the part that it proves she needs to rationalize her deeds in order to make them justified from a LG point of view.


No one else ever hinted that she could outrank Shojo in a legal matter, be it before or after that incident. Nor would such a claim fit with anything else that we have learned about how Azure City works. Heck, it was Shojo himself who ordered Miko around all the time. So much for "outranking".

Oh, and Hinjo outranked Shojo? Because Hinjo, like Miko, assumed he had the authority to depose Shojo and have him sent to jail on the spot.

We where speaking about Miko-Hinjo, and strip 265 gives proof that Miko outranked Hinjo.


She was indeed playing Lawful Good, to be sure. Miko was very adept at self-deception. The most natural interpretation of her whole career is that she has been lying to herself about her alignment for years, with great success.

No. Because she was a Paladin, she was LG. If she had been LN deluding herself as LG, she would never have made it to Paladin for starters.

[The Pilgrim]

By the way, this strip 265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) proves that Miko outranked Hinjo.

She had therefore not to follow orders from him, but the other way around.

[Ancalagon]

In editions prior to 3.0, a creature could be evil without pinging on Detect Evil. In these cases, only Know Alignment would show them as evil.

The other use is much better, I think. But that's not the point. Even "Know Alignment" would show a being as being evil - and that's not changing the basic fact a paladin should not be "evil = smite". And I bet there have been groups around even in 2nd where a paladin has not been the simple, brainless smiter that many people seem to think he is.

The name of the ability that lets you detect some being or person has an evil alignment does not change the questions that arise from that.

[The Pilgrim]

Simple answer: no.

That's a common misconception of how paladins work - and Rich used Miko to show such a badly-played paladin and constrasted that with "well played" paladins as Hinjo and O-Chul.

That we even have to discuss about that after people read this comic shows that some people don't get it. And won't ever get it as Rich made the point in a much better and clearer way as we here in such a discussion could.

It's as much about paladin's as it is about the players who play paladins (in the wrong way).

There is little question (at least, right not) that Miko did wrong. What happens, is that people are trying to rationalize it by pretending that she was LN or LE, or TN or whatever. They don't seem to be able to understand that you can be LG and still screw up that big.

The point, as you say, is that she understood the class and alignment the wrong way, not that she had a different alignment.

[Ancalagon]

My summary to all this: An evil act out of good intentions is still an evil act (which makes a paladin fall) - but does not have to change your alignment.

[Saph]

There is little question (at least, right not) that Miko did wrong. What happens, is that people are trying to rationalize it by pretending that she was LN or LE, or TN or whatever. They don't seem to be able to understand that you can be LG and still screw up that big.

They understand just fine. What you don't seem to understand is that Miko had been skating on the edge of LG for a long time, as the Giant explicitly stated in his commentary.

A single Chaotic Evil act isn't generally enough on its own to stop you from being Lawful Good, but a really major Chaotic Evil act on top of a history of only barely staying within the boundaries of Lawful Good might be. We don't know for sure, but it's an entirely plausible theory (especially since Miko's actions immediately following her Fall were to attempt to kill everyone else in the room).

[hamishspence]

By the way, this strip 265 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0265.html) proves that Miko outranked Hinjo.

She had therefore not to follow orders from him, but the other way around.

Within the Sapphire Guard, Miko outranks Hinjo.

Within the Azure City political structure, Hinjo, as heir to the throne, outranks Miko.

If Hinjo were to arrest Shojo, one would expect that he would hold Shojo's power of authority, until Shojo is either acquitted, or the charges dropped.

Think of it as like a Prince being a lieutenant in the army- yes, they have to follow orders from the generals while the King is alive- but if the King is out of action for some reason (illness, being charged with a crime, etc) the Prince leapfrogs over the generals to become the Man In Charge.

[Dark Matter]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are attempting to say. You're defending the case for Miko being capable of redemption, I suppose? I don't see how. As Soon all but explicitly said, she was not even trying to admit that she needed redemption.I'm defending the idea that she might have been full blooded "evil" after her fall. Yes, the other Paladins could have figured it out from their senses; No, they would not have simply killed her for it.

[Dark Matter]

I've read that. One of the things I liked was the guys method of dealing with a family of suspected werewolves- don't just "kill them all to be safe" but investigate.

Even when the werewolf in the family is identified, the hero is aware that, in this case, the monthly transformation only works in a high-magic area- send the werewolf away from it, and she'll not be a danger to others. So he has her sent away from the region, rather than killed.A good book, but that's an example of the author putting in a simple and bloodless solution that only the hero can see.

Where it gets really messy is if the werewolf is an otherwise good person but there's no "low magic" zone.

[The Pilgrim]

They understand just fine. What you don't seem to understand is that Miko had been skating on the edge of LG for a long time, as the Giant explicitly stated in his commentary.

Wich is grounds to arge that she shifted from LG-leaning-to-LN to LN-leaning-to-LG after the Fall, but in no way that she shifted to evil.

[RMcMurtry]

It may partly be due to changes in the way Detect Evil works.

In editions prior to 3.0, a creature could be evil without pinging on Detect Evil. In these cases, only Know Alignment would show them as evil.

Beings that pinged on Detect Evil were always monsters, or exceptionally villainous members of player races.

This might be how "Detect = Smite" came into being.

In 3.0 and 3.5, they dropped this- but some players still seem to assume it's like 2nd and 1st ed- if it pings, it's "fair game"

In Basic D&D, Detect Evil only detected hostile intent. If your enemy was a hero who has been lead to believe you are a villain, that hero would detect as Evil to you.

Minor edition quibble. In 1st and 2nd, "Detect Evil" detected, in normal humans etc., evil intent. It could also automatically detect powerful evil characters.

[hamishspence]

A good book, but that's an example of the author putting in a simple and bloodless solution that only the hero can see.

Where it gets really messy is if the werewolf is an otherwise good person but there's no "low magic" zone.

Yes- when there isn't this kind of solution, it can be tricky.

That said, while werewolves are listed as Always Chaotic Evil in the MM, some settings have populations that appear to break this rule. The Grey Wolf barbarian tribe in Faerun's Silver Marches region, or the lythari- elven werewolves.

On alignment- sometimes alignment change might be:

"the character wrote the wrong alignment on their sheet- the DM is simply correcting it"

Which can lead to logical problems when the character has powers based on their alignment.

At other times, it's personality development- over time, the character's personality has changed- and their alignment has changed to match.

Does Miko fit the former, or the latter?

I'd say the latter- she began her career as a paladin as LG- she moved into "border territory" between LG and LN and was there for a while- she finally moved out of LG entirely when she killed Shojo.

Whether she moved all the way to Evil is a trickier question- cases can be made for both an Evil and a Neutral Miko.

I am more skeptical of a Good Miko (though there is a possibility of it, I rate the probability pretty low.


Minor edition quibble. In 1st and 2nd, "Detect Evil" detected, in normal humans etc., evil intent. It could also automatically detect powerful evil characters.

I raised that possibility in another debate- the reply was: "evil intent can only be detected in already evil characters- a good character intent on doing some evil, will not register"

[RMcMurtry]

Wich is grounds to arge that she shifted from LG-leaning-to-LN to LN-leaning-to-LG after the Fall, but in no way that she shifted to evil.

We didn't see much of her after the fall and confrontation. I think, given her rants, that she was well on her way to an Evil alignment, even if she was still couching it in good terms. The evidence she's actually made it is limited to Sabine's interest. How interested would Sabine have been if Miko hadn't reached Evil?

[hamishspence]

Minor edition quibble. In 1st and 2nd, "Detect Evil" detected, in normal humans etc., evil intent. It could also automatically detect powerful evil characters.

For those that are interested, this was the original post that said "Evil intent on it's own, is not enough"



No, I said that active intent was additionally required, not that active Evil intent could, by itself, qualify as Evil.
To elaborate, the following is from the AD&D (1st ed) DMG, page 60 in my printing:

DETECTION OF EVIL AND/OR GOOD
It is important to make a distinction between character alignment and some powerful force of evil or good when this detection function is considered. In general, only a know alignment spell will determine the evil or good a character holds within. It must be a great evil or a strong good to be detected. Characters who are very strongly aligned, do not stray from their faith, and who are of relatively high level (at least 8th or higher) might radiate evil or good if they are intent upon appropriate actions. Powerful monsters such as demons, devils, ki-rin and the like will send forth emanations of their evil or good. Aligned undead must radiate evil, far it is this power and negative force which enables them to continue existing. Note that none of these emonations are noticeable without magical detection.


Look at what it says there:
The spell does not detect character alignment!
Another spell does, but detect evil/good does not, unless:
1. The character is very strongly aligned
2. The character does not stray from their faith
3. The character is relatively high level (minimum 8th)
4. The character is intent upon approriate actions
At which point they might radiate an alignment aura.

What does the spell work on?
"demons, devil, ki-rin, and the like"
You know, outsiders, and a magical beast that should be an outsider.

It would take an epic level amount of parsing to somehow construe that a character type, which would include non-player characters, could somehow possibly detect as Evil according to those above requirements and still somehow not have committed enough Evil, including being in the frame of mind to perpetrate additional such acts, that they are on the level of an appropriately aligned outsider, a creature that is effectively formed of an alignment, does not, by any reasonable standard, in fact, deserve immediate death, or reasonable smiting equivalent thereof.

Fred the brutish thug, who actually pets puppies and kittens every third Sunday, does not rape every woman he leers at, only casually worship the local deity of brutal thuggery, and is a paltry 2nd level punk, does not radiate a detectable aura of Evil.

Dave the sociopathic devotee of the deity of torture porn, who haunts the internet seeking virgin catgirls so he can sacrifice them (drinking their blood not optional), who steals pennies from beggars, and makes demons edge away just in case he gets in a mood, who is, right at this moment, planning to do something unspeakable (no, I won't tell you what it is, it's unspeakable!), and unleashes 5th level spells of utter death for casual amusment, does just manage to radiate such a detectable aura of Evil.

That is the AD&D requirement for Evildar to function.
Again, on that basis, I find it impossible to construe that anyone who does detect as Evil, by that standard, is not deserving of instant death.

[The Pilgrim]

Within the Sapphire Guard, Miko outranks Hinjo.

Within the Azure City political structure, Hinjo, as heir to the throne, outranks Miko.

If Hinjo were to arrest Shojo, one would expect that he would hold Shojo's power of authority, until Shojo is either acquitted, or the charges dropped.

Think of it as like a Prince being a lieutenant in the army- yes, they have to follow orders from the generals while the King is alive- but if the King is out of action for some reason (illness, being charged with a crime, etc) the Prince leapfrogs over the generals to become the Man In Charge.

Yes, but the General is the guy with the authority to depose the King, not the Prince.

We have a clear example of what position occupied Miko and Hinjo respective to one another in the Shappire Guard structure. But we don't know how it worked in the civil political structure. Wouldn't make much sense that Hinjo was second-in-command in the Political Arena and only third (or lower) in command in the Shappire Guard.

What we know is that Azure City is not an absolutist monarchy, but more like an elective one. In fact we have never seen neither Shojo not Hinjo adressed as Kings, just as Lords, so Azure City might not be a monarchy at all. The ruler is almost a king, but is just a primus-inter-pares and any other noble house can claim the throne if they gather enough support from the other noble houses.

In a system like that, the death/detention of the Lord doesn't turn his Heir automatically into the highest authority. He needs to be acclaimed by the noble houses first. Until then, in historical early feudal monarchies there was some sort of official (chancellor, seneschal, whatever you name it) who took over formaly until the paperwork had been fulfilled (ie until the Heir manages to convince the nobles to acclaim him). We don't know how it worked in Azure City, but having so strong laws, chances are good that there is some sort of "interim" institution that takes care if such an event arises.

Of course, that's all speculation. The fact that Miko outranked Hinjo in the Sapphire Guard is not.

[Hardcore]

do not seem to actually have been a question at all. If I understand correctly, what was said on another thread, it would not have mattered if Shojo sacrificed children to the darker gods, and Miko being the embodiment of pure good and lovely personalities, she would still fall. Simply because killing her liege lord went against her code of conduct. That is hardly fair, is it?

[The Pilgrim]

We didn't see much of her after the fall and confrontation. I think, given her rants, that she was well on her way to an Evil alignment, even if she was still couching it in good terms. The evidence she's actually made it is limited to Sabine's interest. How interested would Sabine have been if Miko hadn't reached Evil?

The same the IFCC had in V despite it had not reached Evil. Chance to make someone fall even further. Turns out Miko refused.

[hamishspence]

In War & XPs, it clarifies (in the back of the book) that Azure City is indeed a hereditary system of rule- Shojo got the throne through inheritance.

It's also referred to as a monarchy.

That said, even after Shojo's death and before crowning, Hinjo behaves as a ruler. Which is fairly normal with hereditary monarchies. The King is dead, long live the King- even before the coronation ceremony.

The New Lord In Town is the name of the strip where Hinjo starts acting like one- before crowning.

Remember that The Sapphire Guard may not have any authority in itself- according to Hinjo, the populace don't know the organization exists.

In this case, Hinjo would be taking orders because he's a member of the organization- not because they have any legal right to command him.

[Snake-Aes]

She swore the oath. She knew what she was going to get into. Yeah it's fair.


And if you actually read that thread, you'd see the plentiful of reasons on why her act was fallworthy.

[Dark Matter]

The same the IFCC had in V despite it had not reached Evil. Chance to make someone fall even further. Turns out Miko refused.The IFCC has very little interest in whether or not V falls. They'd take a fall, but what they're really interested in is the Snarl.

Miko's refusal was interesting because she didn't say "no", she physically attacked Sabine. That's an odd way of claiming you'll never be evil.

It reminds me of Byron's "Don Juan's" best known passage: "A little still she strove, and much repented, and whispering 'I will never consent,' consented. . . . "

[hamishspence]

I can think of circumstances where killing the liege lord probably shouldn't cause a Fall (the liege lord has just started blasting innocents with deadly magic and the only way to stop them is to kill them).

Aside from that, not sure. Paladins have multiple imperatives to follow- and occasionally they will conflict. In which case, it's up to the DM to decide what the most important imperative is.


And if you actually read that thread, you'd see the plentiful of reasons on why her act was fallworthy.

The question seemed to be "shouldn't there be circumstances where killing the liege lord wouldn't cause a fall"

I'd say such circumstances could in fact exist.

[Snake-Aes]

I can think of circumstances where killing the liege lord probably shouldn't cause a Fall (the liege lord has just started blasting innocents with deadly magic and the only way to stop them is to kill them).

Aside from that, not sure. Paladins have multiple imperatives to follow- and occasionally they will conflict. In which case, it's up to the DM to decide what the most important imperative is.



The question seemed to be "shouldn't there be circumstances where killing the liege lord wouldn't cause a fall"

I'd say such circumstances could in fact exist.Right. Yeah, they could. If Shojo had actually done anything worth execution, AND Miko's reasons to kill him were Shojo's deeds, then she wouldn't fall. She could get on the bad side of the entire nation, but she wouldn't fall.

[hamishspence]

Unless the DM is going with "helpless enemies must be tried first"

[Snake-Aes]

Unless the DM is going with "helpless enemies must be tried first"

That is variable. On the case of a lord like Shojo, it should be like that. Hinjo even stated that. Sometimes it isn't practical to do so, though. Like wilderness, or the lack of a society to try the guy, but those are rare.

[hamishspence]

Agreed.

Though I personally don't think Kubota's case fitted into wilderness, or lack of society.

[Snake-Aes]

Agreed.

Though I personally don't think Kubota's case fitted into wilderness, or lack of society.

No, it didn't. his Society was right there with him and even if it WAS the case, if V was a paladin V would fall, due to the petty reasons. Killing for convenience is evil, after all.

[hamishspence]

Yes- generally motive matters unless the victim was a fiend (what with BoVD's "killing a fiend is always good")

Personally I'd say a sufficiently bad motive ("So I can conquer reality unhindered by that fiend") should downgrade even fiend-killing to Neutral or worse- devils killing demons in the Blood War, for example.

Aside from that though, non-evil characters should be careful of the reason's why they are killing an evil being- and be sure that the context warrants killing rather than arresting.

[Snake-Aes]

Generally I don't accept "Always" types of deeds. You just gave an example of why :p

If you played Heroes of Might and Magic 4, you'll remember this: King Gavin Magnus' ultimate goal in the campaign is to achieve eternal world peace. Through mental domination of all living beings. Yay evil deeds!

[hamishspence]

Yes- I do think Monte Cook overdid "fiend-killing is always good- allowing fiends to live is always evil"

Quite a lot of writers appear to have dumped this. Dungeon's Savage Tide adventure path requires the party to forge an alliance between fiends and celestials. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits stats out a fiend type, of which 10% are Neutral or Good, despite their Evil subtype. And so on.

Savage Species, in its "Chaotic/Accepting" viewpoint (one of four possible world types) suggested that "even the foulest tanar'ri is really the victim of its own psychoses"

[The Pilgrim]

In War & XPs, it clarifies (in the back of the book) that Azure City is indeed a hereditary system of rule- Shojo got the throne through inheritance.

It's also referred to as a monarchy.

That said, even after Shojo's death and before crowning, Hinjo behaves as a ruler. Which is fairly normal with hereditary monarchies. The King is dead, long live the King- even before the coronation ceremony.

The New Lord In Town is the name of the strip where Hinjo starts acting like one- before crowning.

You have a point. But it happens after Shojo's death anyway. Prior to it, Hinjo wants to bring Shojo to civil trial (he doesn't claims to have the power to judge him himself), and he doesn't attemp to pull rank to stop Miko from murdering Shojo.


Remember that The Sapphire Guard may not have any authority in itself- according to Hinjo, the populace don't know the organization exists.

True. The Shappire Guard and the City's hierarchy are two diferent structures.


In this case, Hinjo would be taking orders because he's a member of the organization- not because they have any legal right to command him.

But Miko happens to outrank Hinjo in the Sapphire Guard hierachy. In strip 265 she commands Hinjo around, rather rashly. Hinjo takes it (yet not happy about it) and treats her with the respect deserved for a superior (despite he doesn't like her).

We don't know how it worked in the City hierarchy, but it's apparent that for Miko the hierarchy of Sapphire Guard overruled that of the City.

[hamishspence]

We don't know how it worked in the City hierarchy, but it's apparent that for Miko the hierarchy of Sapphire Guard overruled that of the City.

I wouldn't be surprised if all SG felt that way, even if their hierarchy has no official powers:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

"The gods are not limited in their jurisdiction, therefore neither are we"

is a pretty arrogant credo.

Once Miko decided that the gods wanted her to kill Shojo, the end result was pretty inevitable.

[Jagos]

I'm defending the idea that she might have been full blooded "evil" after her fall. Yes, the other Paladins could have figured it out from their senses; No, they would not have simply killed her for it.

No. She flat out turned down Sabine's offer to be a Dark/Blood knight or what haves. Mainly, she was a "good" paladin, and not a people person. If given more time, she could have changed to good or evil, which is speculation. But at least before her fall, she wanted to do the right thing albeit her own way.

[hamishspence]

This trait isn't unique to Good or Neutral characters.

A few Evil characters are of this sort of type- committing atrocities "for the greater good"- but utterly opposed to fiendish evil.

Fallen paladins who believe their actions to be justified, might slip all the way into Evil while still carrying on "the fight against evil" with exceptionally ruthless methods.

While turning Sabine's offer down might suggest non-evilness, it isn't proof of it.

[Dark Matter]

No. She flat out turned down Sabine's offer to be a Dark/Blood knight or what haves.True, but she turned down the offer in a way that wouldn't be out of character for Belkar.


But at least before her fall, she wanted to do the right thing albeit her own way.We could say much the same about Red Cloak.

Having said that, yes, before the fall she was at least nominally good. Afterwards... I don't know. There's something of the "Preacher's Kid" syndrome in this. I.e. kid raised with really strict rules moves away from dad and then without rules he/she runs wild. Finding out that Shojo was Chaotic was devastating. He'd written the rules, she'd served him for her adult life, he'd been one of her lynch-pins. If he was without rules then every part of her life, all her rules, were suspect.

Thus she went from Lawful-stupid to Chaotic-Confused and good-ish to prideful-self-delusion. However she still defined herself as being LG... but there was a serious disconnect between her "wanting to be LG" and her "wanting to do LG actions".

And then she died, and thus presents the Deva up in LG-heaven with a mess. Do you base where to put her on her final behavior? A sum total of her life? Does she get extra bad karma for her murder (perhaps) opening the door to the army of evil? Same question for saving Xykon and RC from Soon?

I'm not impressed by the whole "she didn't want X to happen" argument because she had all the relevant facts and just put them together so she could do what she wanted to. My personal inclination would be to dump her into the LN-heaven and let her obey and/or enforce strict/pointless rules.

[hamishspence]

My personal inclination would be to dump her into the LN-heaven and let her obey and/or enforce strict/pointless rules.

Which one? There are three- Arcadia, Mechanus, and Acheron.

Acheron, as a Lower Plane (without actually having the "mildly evil aligned" trait) might work if you think Miko was close to the LN/LE border.

Arcadia might work if you think Miko was still basically fairly good-hearted (just not Good-aligned any more).

[Wymmerdann]

But Miko happens to outrank Hinjo in the Sapphire Guard hierachy. In strip 265 she commands Hinjo around, rather rashly. Hinjo takes it (yet not happy about it) and treats her with the respect deserved for a superior (despite he doesn't like her).

Not definitive. Hinjo takes it, but that might just be because its easier than arguing with stick-up-her-butt Miko.

Anyway it doesn't matter because being the highest ranking Paladin is irrelevant; the Saphire Guard, like Azure City has a hereditary rulership.

So Miko has to obey Shojo. She chooses not to. I'll ignore the validity of that choice because it can be debated ad nauseam. The point is, in Miko's little brain, once Shojo becomes an illegitimate authority, Hinjo should immedietely take over. When she says she's executing him because she's the highest ranking authority within the order, she's wrong. If Shojo is an illegitimate authority, Hinjo becomes legitimate, and she directly acts against his orders.

Also, Pilgrim you're drawing too tall a bow on Rich's intentions. Yes he meant to show a LG Paladin played badly, but surely (within Rich's universe) a Paladin played badly could fall and change alignment. Indeed surely that would be the probable conclusion. Otherwise someone could say "Oh no this isn't a Paladin played badly, because she fell, which means she wasn't a Paladin at all".

Fair call on picking the anachronism but my early argument still stands. Just because she justified herself later doesn't mean that that justification can't be refuted ahead of time (ie, when Shojo was assassinated).

[ColourDeaf]

I think a point that's being somewhat ignored is the higher accountability to which Paladins (above normal LG people) are held. They answer directly to the gods and the god's will. The Azure Guard were founded as a Paladinic order to protect Azure city and (by logical extension) the people, particularly those who rule. This is therefore the will of the gods that they respect those tenets by which the order was founded. By killing Shojo, and thereby defying the tenets of the order's foundation, she directly and flagrantly opposed the will of the gods themselves.

Is it an alignment change? Not sure.

It's pretty solid reasoning for a Fall, though

[hamishspence]

Technically they were founded to protect their gate- any other roles that they take on are secondary to the main role.

[The Pilgrim]

True, but she turned down the offer in a way that wouldn't be out of character for Belkar.

Neither for Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)

[The Pilgrim]

Does she get extra bad karma for her murder (perhaps) opening the door to the army of evil?

Shojo was out of the game from the moment Hinjo and Miko discovered his ploy. Should Miko hadn't killed him, he would have been sent into jail by Hinjo. Wich would have surely provoked the same or even more problems to the political stability of Azure City.

Not to mention that Shojo could have been resurrected, and he choose not to be on his own will - because he was gonna be thrown into jail anyway.

[The Pilgrim]

Anyway it doesn't matter because being the highest ranking Paladin is irrelevant; the Saphire Guard, like Azure City has a hereditary rulership.

So Miko has to obey Shojo. She chooses not to. I'll ignore the validity of that choice because it can be debated ad nauseam. The point is, in Miko's little brain, once Shojo becomes an illegitimate authority, Hinjo should immedietely take over. When she says she's executing him because she's the highest ranking authority within the order, she's wrong. If Shojo is an illegitimate authority, Hinjo becomes legitimate, and she directly acts against his orders.

No. Miko as the second in command is the one with the most authority to decide whenever Shojo has to be sent to jail and submited to trial for treason or not. Once that matter is settled, and Hinjo takes the throne, he then becomes the Big Guy, but before that he is just another paladin below her rank. Miko choose to kill him on the spot, wich is the arguibly unlawful behaviour. But it is not to discard Hinjo's opinions about the matter, because Hinjo has no authority over her.

I mean, when your father dies, you do not become the legal owner of his propierties until the notary has read the Will, you have claimed before the administrative authorities to be the heir, and you have been legally proclaimed as it.

[Ancalagon]

No. Miko as the second in command is the one with the most authority to judge whenever Shojo has to be deposed for treason or not. Once that matter is settled, and Hinjo takes the throne, he then becomes the Big Guy, but before that he is just another paladin below her rank.

I mean, when your father die, you do not become the legal owner of his propierties until the notary has read the Will, you have claimed before the administrative authorities to be the heir, and you have been legally proclaimed as it.

All that works differently based on circumstances, organisation, culture, persons involved etc. You cannot claim this or that.

But I find it likely that the "heir to the throne" has a very, very important word in those matters. Once Shojo was "not in power anymore for whatever reason", Hinjo suddenly would have gotten a lot of attention. Does it outweight the word of the highest ranking member of the Sapphire Guard? Maybe? Probably? Surely?

I say "yes".

Especially if you consider that the nobles - who also played a very major role back then in Azure City - would be able to ignore some military leader of Shojo's Paladins but surely not the heir to the throne. Remeber that the Sapphire Guard had no real official power in Azure City. All the direct power they had were executed through the commander of the Guard who also happened to be the Lord of the City.

[The Pilgrim]

All that works differently based on circumstances, organisation, culture, persons involved etc. You cannot claim this or that.

But I find it likely that the "heir to the throne" has a very, very important word in those matters. Once Shojo was "not in power anymore for whatever reason", Hinjo suddenly would have gotten a lot of attention. Does it outweight the word of the highest ranking member of the Sapphire Guard? Maybe? Probably? Surely?

I say "yes".

Especially if you consider that the nobles - who also played a very major role back then in Azure City - would be able to ignore some military leader of Shojo's Paladins but surely not the heir to the throne. Remeber that the Sapphire Guard had no real official power in Azure City. All the direct power they had were executed through the commander of the Guard who also happened to be the Lord of the City.

Quite probably.

But the point is, who had more authority at the Throne Room, at that moment?

Both Miko and Hinjo agreed to depose Shojo. That was a fair decision, given that Hinjo didn't lose paladinhood for it. In fact, Hinjo made the first move.

Stupid decision, by the way, I'm still uncertain under wich authority did Hinjo decide that just because his Uncle has been lying to him, he could depose the old man and throw him into the dungeons. The trial would have been funny; I accuse my Uncle of violating Azure City's Law because he faked a mental illness in order to avoid getting killed by the nobles and lied to the members of an organization that officialy doesn't exists. But not the point of this debate.

So, between Miko and Hinjo, at that moment, who had more authority? Miko outranked Hinjo in the Sapphire Guard so it's natural to her to assume the lead. This is not unlawful behaviour. Add pride, delusions of grandeur, chosen by the Gods and all that to her motivations, but it doesn't change the lawfulness of it. She then proceeded to use her authority in an unlawful way, and that's when she screwed from a law-chaos point of view.

Hinjo, in that strip, has a chance to speak to Miko after she has raised her accusations and she has clearly refused to submit Shojo to trial. Hijo tries to convince her to follow his proposed course of action, but in no moment of that conversation Hinjo looks like he has assumed to be the New Lord in Town, neither attemps to pull rank on Miko. He seems to treat her as his equal, at least.

After the murder and fall... another history. She was in shock after the fall, and it should be noted that it's Roy who attacks her when she is still trying to understand what happened, pulling her into rage mode.

[Ancalagon]

It was not a matter or "rank". It was a situation where it is unclear who had the authority. Did Miko had it to dispose, alone!, her liege whom she was sworn to?
Or was it Hinjo who was the heir to the throne?

I think the "authority" to make that call and to decide how it got handled was Hinjo's. But it was not about that.

It was plainly about who took that authority. And that was Miko. She simply seized that authority and did not care if she should have it or not.
Sometimes, things simply don't follow the rules - and in this case we do not even know if there are any. But if I had to decide, I said Hinjo had a much more valid claim than Miko.

[Lecan]

Right. Yeah, they could. If Shojo had actually done anything worth execution, AND Miko's reasons to kill him were Shojo's deeds, then she wouldn't fall. She could get on the bad side of the entire nation, but she wouldn't fall.

She probably would have still. Hinjo stated quite clearly that Shojo had been entitled to a trial to prove his guilt or innocence. Miko ignored the laws she was supposed to uphold.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, I suppose unless Rich issues a manual for "Azurite Law 101", we can't come to a definitive answer on this one.

[Lecan]

Well, I suppose unless Rich issues a manual for "Azurite Law 101", we can't come to a definitive answer on this one.

Well, Hinjo called Miko a murderer. I believe as a Paladin and heir apparent to the throne he would be at least passingly familiar with the laws, who gets to execute people accused of breaking them and when said execution should occur on the act-trial-punishment timeline.

Edited to add: Shojo's crimes (at least as appeared in the comic) included tampering with the justice system (the OotS trial) and falsifying records (Linear Guild's arrest/incarceration). He MAY have been charged with conspiracy to betray the city, but that would likely have been dismissed due to overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It is possible that some charges could be brought up around lying to city officials and misuse of power, but that isn't as likely.

The main damage would be to the Sapphire Guard. If Xykon hadn't been approaching, would Hinjo's command be followed? Miko may even have been able to assume control of the Guard (she was the most powerful of them) given a lack of clear direction from Soon or the 12 Gods.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, Hinjo called Miko a murderer. I believe as a Paladin and heir apparent to the throne he would be at least passingly familiar with the laws, who gets to execute people accused of breaking them and when said execution should occur on the act-trial-punishment timeline.

I never contested that Miko's execution of Shojo was non-lawful. I, in fact, labeled it as that.

[Lecan]

I never contested that Miko's execution of Shojo was non-lawful. I, in fact, labeled it as that.

I apologize, then, I must have mistaken what you were talking about :)

[hamishspence]

Edited to add: Shojo's crimes (at least as appeared in the comic) included tampering with the justice system (the OotS trial) and falsifying records (Linear Guild's arrest/incarceration).

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0404.html

While O-Chul appears to be uncomfortable with it, he does obey. As Shojo put it "Their very existance is now a state secret"

So this may not be a crime. Rulers of Azure City might have wide discretionary powers.

[Dark Matter]

Neither for Roy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0355.html)Roy was actively in combat with Sabine and she was trying to distract him from Nale's dire plans. Him throwing her out the window was an attempt to haul her off to jail (which the cops botched).

Miko wasn't trying to restrain the all-ready-in-jail Sabine.

Miko breaking Sabine's neck for making a pass at her was more on a par with Belkar pulling out knives during a barroom brawl. Or for that matter, what would Belkar do in a bar if a gay-guy hit on him? I'm guessing he'd knife him... or break his neck.


Shojo was out of the game from the moment Hinjo and Miko discovered his ploy. Should Miko hadn't killed him, he would have been sent into jail by Hinjo. Wich would have surely provoked the same or even more problems to the political stability of Azure City.

Not to mention that Shojo could have been resurrected, and he choose not to be on his own will - because he was gonna be thrown into jail anyway.Shojo has been doing the king thing for the last 47 years. He knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally) and has decades of favors, blackmail, etc to call on. If there's anyone who can bring the nobles in line during the war, it's him. He might even be able to do this even if Hinjo is king, with him presumably whispering advice, perhaps even from jail.

Imagine those ninjas trying to take out Red Cloak or that super-poison being used against Red Cloak. Imagine the army having more troops because the nobles lend their personal armies. Imagine one noble mage casting "Wall of Stone" to repair that gap. Or for that matter, imagine Quar calling in his favor and dropping that Pit Fiend into the goblin army.

Killing Shojo was a HORRIBLE thing from the stand point of defending the city because Hinjo's leadership was second rate. The army didn't fall apart, but the city wasn't exactly unified either and that could have tipped the scales.

Worse, this was a very predictable result from killing Shojo. It's on a par with Elan dying because he was left to fend for himself at the bandit camp. Did Roy actively wish Elan dead? No, but if he'd died it would have been a mark on Roy's soul. The same logic implies that the fall of the city is, at least partially, a mark on Miko's soul.

[Ancalagon]

It's on a par with Elan dying because he was left to fend for himself at the bandit camp. Did Roy actively wish Elan dead? No, but if he'd died it would have been a mark on Roy's soul. The same logic implies that the fall of the city is, at least partially, a mark on Miko's soul.

While I fully agree to the rest of your post, this part is wrong. The difference? One of those actions had consequences while the other was fixed by the person who was central to it before it could have bad consequences. It was a pretty close thing, given that they party was already hanging from the gallows but Roy *did* rescue the day.

There is another difference between "going away when you should not" and "actively splitting someone with your sword".

[Gitman00]

Miko breaking Sabine's neck for making a pass at her was more on a par with Belkar pulling out knives during a barroom brawl. Or for that matter, what would Belkar do in a bar if a gay-guy hit on him? I'm guessing he'd knife him... or break his neck.

:belkar: "You want me to penetrate you? *stab* Done." :smallbiggrin:

[DeltaEmil]

Roy was actively in combat with Sabine and she was trying to distract him from Nale's dire plans. Him throwing her out the window was an attempt to haul her off to jail (which the cops botched).

Miko wasn't trying to restrain the all-ready-in-jail Sabine.

Miko breaking Sabine's neck for making a pass at her was more on a par with Belkar pulling out knives during a barroom brawl.It also involved trading her soul to the forces of the underworld and becoming a Black Guard, a champion of ruin and evil. Snapping Sabine's neck (she got better) shows that Miko's still loyal to the forces of good/the southern pantheon, no matter how delusional about her own importance she was.

The only thing people might miss is some kind of Sabine x Miko action, but it's a stick figure webcomic, so yeah...

[Kish]

Miko breaking Sabine's neck for making a pass at her was more on a par with Belkar pulling out knives during a barroom brawl. Or for that matter, what would Belkar do in a bar if a gay-guy hit on him? I'm guessing he'd knife him... or break his neck.
I don't think homophobia is one of Belkar's many failings. Remember when he was hitting on Roy? I suspect he'd probably just tell the gay man he wasn't interested. (Unless, of course, he'd already been planning to randomly stab the next person who spoke to him.)

[The Pilgrim]

Shojo has been doing the king thing for the last 47 years. He knows where the bodies are buried (perhaps literally) and has decades of favors, blackmail, etc to call on. If there's anyone who can bring the nobles in line during the war, it's him. He might even be able to do this even if Hinjo is king, with him presumably whispering advice, perhaps even from jail.

Imagine those ninjas trying to take out Red Cloak or that super-poison being used against Red Cloak. Imagine the army having more troops because the nobles lend their personal armies. Imagine one noble mage casting "Wall of Stone" to repair that gap. Or for that matter, imagine Quar calling in his favor and dropping that Pit Fiend into the goblin army.

Killing Shojo was a HORRIBLE thing from the stand point of defending the city because Hinjo's leadership was second rate. The army didn't fall apart, but the city wasn't exactly unified either and that could have tipped the scales.

Worse, this was a very predictable result from killing Shojo. It's on a par with Elan dying because he was left to fend for himself at the bandit camp. Did Roy actively wish Elan dead? No, but if he'd died it would have been a mark on Roy's soul. The same logic implies that the fall of the city is, at least partially, a mark on Miko's soul.

Still it was Shojo's decission to NOT resurrect. A decission taken because Hinjo was going to send him straight to the Bucket. If Hinjo had swallowed his lawfulness, we would have got Lord Shojo for the battle.

I mean, it's all the faul of two stupid Lawful characters who thought that Shojo's petty lies were more important than the safety of the City. Miko at least has the excuse of being a fanatical, delusional, half-witted, wrathful hag. But Hinjo looks like the reasonable type. What's his excuse?

[hamishspence]

Still it was Shojo's decission to NOT resurrect. A decission taken because Hinjo was going to send him straight to the Bucket. If Hinjo had swallowed his lawfulness, we would have got Lord Shojo for the battle.

That's why Belkar thought he wouldn't Resurrect- it is possible (albiet unlikely) that there was some other reason we never got to see.

On Mark of Justice- in a Don't Split the Party bonus strip, we see Sangwaan present, and advising Shojo, when he decides to use it:
"I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

So, legal or otherwise, Shojo wasn't the only Sapphire Guard member who knew about it.

[NerfTW]

Or for that matter, what would Belkar do in a bar if a gay-guy hit on him? I'm guessing he'd knife him... or break his neck.

He'd probably just accept it as a compliment, just like any sane person who isn't a homophobe. Shockingly, it does not hurt to be complimented on your looks.

[Dark Matter]

While I fully agree to the rest of your post, this part is wrong. The difference? One of those actions had consequences while the other was fixed by the person who was central to it before it could have bad consequences. It was a pretty close thing, given that they party was already hanging from the gallows but Roy *did* rescue the day.

There is another difference between "going away when you should not" and "actively splitting someone with your sword".Add to that list the difference that if Roy's misdeed went wrong, Elan would die and that's it. Miko was playing god with the city.

It's not hard to see a set of rules which put a ton of evil on Miko for that while Roy only got a mild rebuke. This doesn't mean that the Devas are in fact working under those rules... but it's possible.


...If Hinjo had swallowed his lawfulness, we would have got Lord Shojo for the battle. I mean, it's all the faul of two stupid Lawful characters who thought that Shojo's petty lies were more important than the safety of the City. Miko at least has the excuse of being a fanatical, delusional, half-witted, wrathful hag. But Hinjo looks like the reasonable type. What's his excuse?Hinjo's excuse?

First, he wasn't the one to kill Shojo (nor did he want it to happen and if he'd been closer he presumably would have prevented it just like he did Belkar's murder).

Second, he gave the "arrest" order before he knew about the whole "army of darkness" thing. He also stated the second was more important than the first.

Third, at a guess the only reason he was even continuing with the arrest was because Miko was so dead set Shojo was with Xykon. She'd just informed everyone about the army so she clearly knew more about what was going on than he did... and Shojo had just admitted to a lot. It was reasonable to bring in a Cleric with Zone of Truth (or some other detect lies thing) to find out what the deal was.

If Hinjo had his way, Shojo probably would have been running things for the war.

[The Pilgrim]

If Hinjo had his way, Shojo probably would have been running things for the war.

Most likely would have been kept in a dark cell. Still, it was Shojo's decision to not resurrect.

[Kish]

If Hinjo had his way, Shojo probably would have been running things for the war.
Or, at least, advising Hinjo from inside prison. Not coming back to anything other than rule was Shojo's choice.

[The Pilgrim]

That's why Belkar thought he wouldn't Resurrect- it is possible (albiet unlikely) that there was some other reason we never got to see.

I suppose Shojo was killed so hard that his soul didn't dare to resurrect.

No, wait, that would have been if O-Chul had killed him (+1 circunstance bonus for having been forced to wipe cat sh*t for years). But Miko is not a tenth as badass as him, so not likely.


On Mark of Justice- in a Don't Split the Party bonus strip, we see Sangwaan present, and advising Shojo, when he decides to use it:
"I see him saving your nephew's life. Twice."

So, legal or otherwise, Shojo wasn't the only Sapphire Guard member who knew about it.

Never made that claim myself. (Sorry if you were answering another member)

[hamishspence]

Never made that claim myself. (Sorry if you were answering another member)

sorry- wrong thread, I was thinking of:


Lord Hinjo's words (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0420.html): The Mark of Justice is not part of Azure City's legal system. Lord Shojo worked above the Law every time he used it. Lord Hinjo is not legally bounded to even remove it from Belkar.

So I'm not sure if Shojo putting the Mark on Belkar was illegal or not. it isn't part of the justice system- but it may be within his powers as ruler and Sapphire Guard Leader to do it.

[Dark Matter]

Or, at least, advising Hinjo from inside prison. Not coming back to anything other than rule was Shojo's choice.True... sort of. The world looks very different when you're dead. Could Roy have been raised while he was playing blocks with his brother? Between his age and everything else, Shojo had lots of reasons to move on and not many to stay.

[Snake-Aes]

So I'm not sure if Shojo putting the Mark on Belkar was illegal or not. it isn't part of the justice system- but it may be within his powers as ruler and Sapphire Guard Leader to do it.

I'm fairly sure Hinjo included the Sapphire Guard in the legality of the Mark. Otherwise he could just order it off(or not) as told in the codex.

[hamishspence]

I'm fairly sure Hinjo included the Sapphire Guard in the legality of the Mark. Otherwise he could just order it off(or not) as told in the codex.

He emphasised that he wasn't legally bound to remove it.

"the act of my uncle, working above the law" may simply be a case of Shojo not being bound by most normal legal restrictions.

Monarchial fiat, in other words.

[Snake-Aes]

He emphasised that he wasn't legally bound to remove it.

"the act of my uncle, working above the law" may simply be a case of Shojo not being bound by most normal legal restrictions.

Monarchial fiat, in other words.

Which is my point precisely.

[hamishspence]

Probably, (like jailing the Linear Guild as a "state secret"), doesn't qualify as something he can be jailed for, though.

[Dark Matter]

Probably, (like jailing the Linear Guild as a "state secret"), doesn't qualify as something he can be jailed for, though.A trio of seriously evil, seriously dangerous, seriously murderous types... one of whom is a for-real demon and the other two cop-killers who are consorting with her?

Yeah, I think Shojo can defend his move to jail them without too much trouble.

[Snake-Aes]

A trio of seriously evil, seriously dangerous, seriously murderous types... one of whom is a for-real demon and the other two cop-killers who are consorting with her?

Yeah, I think Shojo can defend his move to jail them without too much trouble.

Not until it was proved that Nale attempted murder.

[hamishspence]

A ruler can jail people for short periods without trying them- but if the period lasts too long it smacks of tyranny.

Roy's testimony is probably enough for Shojo to jail them for said short period before any charges are brought.

As it is, Nale was only in jail one day before Shojo was murdered.

[LuisDantas]

It also involved trading her soul to the forces of the underworld and becoming a Black Guard, a champion of ruin and evil. Snapping Sabine's neck (she got better) shows that Miko's still loyal to the forces of good/the southern pantheon, no matter how delusional about her own importance she was.

How is that so? Even all-out Evil people will often have no desire to become standard-bearers for Evil. And many people who think of themselves as "not evil" will in fact be evil.

At most, we can learn that Miko does not think of herself as a champion of evil, which is of course true.

[LuisDantas]

Still it was Shojo's decission to NOT resurrect. A decission taken because Hinjo was going to send him straight to the Bucket. If Hinjo had swallowed his lawfulness, we would have got Lord Shojo for the battle.

Maybe so. Then again, maybe not. Who knows what reason Shojo may have to not want to come back to life?

It is also less than clear that Shojo's return would be at all beneficial to the siege situation. After all, his scheme was already exposed and there was no time to convince anyone that he has good reasons to do what he did.

For that matter, it is not safe to bet that Shojo had good reasons to begin with. He claimed to, but for all we know he may have lied shamelessly.


I mean, it's all the faul of two stupid Lawful characters who thought that Shojo's petty lies were more important than the safety of the City. Miko at least has the excuse of being a fanatical, delusional, half-witted, wrathful hag. But Hinjo looks like the reasonable type. What's his excuse?

It was Shojo who decided not to ressurrect. Hinjo did not forbid him to, and in fact attempted to make that happen. It is unfair to blame him for a refusal that is not his.

[hamishspence]

He might have lied about Meat Loaf Day, but the behaviour of the nobles (sending ninjas after Hinjo the moment he does something they disagree with) does seem to suggest he was telling the truth- attempted assassinations were a problem that needed to be solved.

[Dark Matter]

And many people who think of themselves as "not evil" will in fact be evil. At most, we can learn that Miko does not think of herself as a champion of evil, which is of course true.I agree with this fully.


Not until it was proved that Nale attempted murder.I didn't say "attempted". Nale killed all those people (including the chief of police) over in... was it Cliffport? Thog killed some police while resisting arrest. And then Elan escaped from jail which means the cops think Nale did that too.

You can argue they're only "wanted" for these crimes, but considering they're guilty and the Paladins don't have any qualms about using magic to confirm this, I don't see any problems.

[Snake-Aes]

I agree with this fully.

I didn't say "attempted". Nale killed all those people (including the chief of police) over in... was it Cliffport? Thog killed some police while resisting arrest. And then Elan escaped from jail which means the cops think Nale did that too.

You can argue they're only "wanted" for these crimes, but considering they're guilty and the Paladins don't have any qualms about using magic to confirm this, I don't see any problems.

Those happened outside of Azure City, so at best the paladins would escort him back to Cliffport. Otherwise, I think they wouldn't mind a preemptive arrest until the accusations are confirmed.

[NerfTW]

The problem with letting Nale go is that he knew about Shojo's ruse. He would have blabbed to the first Paladin he saw treating Shojo like a senile old man. He also knew about the gates, and could pose a threat to them.

While you could argue that knowing Nale knows about the gates would have resulted in the Paladins executing him, to reveal that information would require revealing that Shojo wasn't senile and had told the Order about the gates. Also, the whole "Nale might just be raised by an unknown companion" issue.

Nale was a threat to the safety of the gates and to Shojo's ruse. Sending him back to Cliffport, a city that he knows couldn't even hold Elan and Thog would be the worst possible course of action.

[DeltaEmil]

How is that so? Even all-out Evil people will often have no desire to become standard-bearers for Evil. And many people who think of themselves as "not evil" will in fact be evil.

At most, we can learn that Miko does not think of herself as a champion of evil, which is of course true.What exactly do you disagree about? She was still loyal to the forces of good. What she thinks of herself (an infallible avenger of justice who pays fealty to no-one except the gods, who clearly must have made some kind of minor mistake or made her fall for some kind of test in her mind) is not really relevant. She chose to refuse the offer of a demon to become a black guard.

[LuisDantas]

Except that in the OOTS universe they have material proof that the Gods exist, so you can be actually following their orders.

That might matter if she were not deluding herself, I guess.


(...) Which would be very informative in a debate about mental stable vs insane, but means little in a debate about Lawful vs Chaos and Good vs Evil... except for the part that it proves she needs to rationalize her deeds in order to make them justified from a LG point of view.

Yes, it is a consensus that she claims to be LG. And probably believes in that, too. Most of the time, anyway.



Oh, and Hinjo outranked Shojo? Because Hinjo, like Miko, assumed he had the authority to depose Shojo and have him sent to jail on the spot.

We where speaking about Miko-Hinjo, and strip 265 gives proof that Miko outranked Hinjo.

Nothing to add here. Others have refuted this well enough.


No. Because she was a Paladin, she was LG. If she had been LN deluding herself as LG, she would never have made it to Paladin for starters.

Because there is not possibly such a thing as deviating from standard D&D rules in a webcomics, nor is it possible for someone to change alignment, right?

[LuisDantas]

What exactly do you disagree about? She was still loyal to the forces of good.

I don't think so. In fact, I don't think she ever was. Miko has only shown loyalty to her own misconceptions, I fear.


What she thinks of herself (an infallible avenger of justice who pays fealty to no-one except the gods, who clearly must have made some kind of minor mistake or made her fall for some kind of test in her mind) is not really relevant.

What? It is completely relevant, crucial even. It makes the difference between Miko being a deluded fool or a true Paladin.


She chose to refuse the offer of a demon to become a black guard.

Which proves basically nothing. Except that she isn't all-out evil. Perhaps.

[The Pilgrim]

Nothing to add here. Others have refuted this well enough.

I'm still waiting for a refutal to the evidence shown in strip 265, other than denial of the evidence ("that proves nothing")


Because there is not possibly such a thing as deviating from standard D&D rules in a webcomics, nor is it possible for someone to change alignment, right?

It's possible for someone to change alignment, but it takes more than a single act. It involves also a change in attitude. Of course, it's pointless to debate about this point with someone who states that Miko has always been Evil.

And if Rich had taken the step to revoke the "LG only" rule for Paladins, he should have stated it clearly since it's a radical change in the rules.

He has done the opposite, apparently. He settled the debate about the Goblin-Village-Massacre in SoD stating that most of the Paladins there lost their paladinhood after it. Regarding Miko, he stated she was on the veil of the LG alignment, but still inside it. At least until her fall.

[The Pilgrim]

I don't think so. In fact, I don't think she ever was. Miko has only shown loyalty to her own misconceptions, I fear..

The fact that the Author of the comic himself has stated that Paladin Miko was LG - walking on the border, but still - means nothing, of course. You know better than him.

[Zevox]

The fact that the Author of the comic himself has stated that Paladin Miko was LG - walking on the border, but still - means nothing, of course. You know better than him.
There is a difference between having a good alignment and being "loyal to the forces of good." I doubt Luis is arguing that Miko's alignment was never LG - nothing I've seen him say indicates that - but rather that Miko was never really loyal to anything but her own misconceptions of what it meant to be a Paladin, or perhaps more accurately to her notion of what it meant for her to be a Paladin, since the Giant remarked that her big problem was that she always considered herself in particular to be a special chosen instrument of her gods. She managed to be Lawful Good, if only barely, and a Paladin even with those misconceptions, for a while. But not forever. And her continuing belief in those misconceptions after her fall is not the same as being "loyal to the forces of good," which others argue she was.

Zevox

[Morithias]

Didn't Soon say she could visit windstriker in the afterlife? how could she spent time with a holy mount if she wasn't in heaven?

I'm pretty sure she was still good when she fell.

So I would say she fell due to violation of paladin code. The killing of an innocent.

Oh and Murder is 5 on the corrupt chart, but since no one except me uses that, I'll let you guys debate about it being evil.



Personally I am quite pleased and joyed about how so long after her sad death, my goddess is still having a profound effect upon these forums

[Zevox]

Didn't Soon say she could visit windstriker in the afterlife? how could she spent time with a holy mount if she wasn't in heaven?
The other way around - he would visit her as often as he could. And the ability to travel between planes does exist, you know.

Note also that Soon implied Miko's destination differed from the Sapphire Guard's. ("We will usher you to your destination as well.")

Zevox

[Morithias]

The other way around - he would visit her as often as he could. And the ability to travel between planes does exist, you know.

Note also that Soon implied Miko's destination differed from the Sapphire Guard's. ("We will usher you to your destination as well.")

Zevox

Hmm...I suppose that is correct. However there is one last problem...

the rules state that a person goes to the realm of their deity....so would not Miko end up in the afterlife of the holy patron who she followed?

I mean, I'm sure she worshiped the "12 gods" but I highly doubt she had the same respect for all of them. If you get my drift...

[Kish]

the rules state that a person goes to the realm of their deity...

Pardon? Which strip says that? What example do we have of any characters at all having their afterlives determined by the deities they worshiped rather than by their alignments? Obviously if Miko could simply pick which afterlife she wanted to go to she'd go straight to Celestia.

She's not in the same place as Windstriker, but she wouldn't be in any case, since he's not dead, and is probably another paladin's mount now. If she was still Lawful Good, she's somewhere in Celestia, just not as high on the mountain as she would be if she'd died a true paladin. If she was any other alignment then...etc. People will say that "she was obviously X alignment and therefore she is in Y." People will say that what Soon said about Windstriker visiting her as much as he is able proves she's in an upper plane (because Windstriker couldn't visit her in the Nine Hells) and that it proves that she's not in an upper plane (because there would be no limits on Windstriker visiting her in Celestia). At the end of the day, the information the comic's given us is simply not sufficient for anyone to know where she is.

[RMcMurtry]

And a living celestial creature probably has more freedom of movement than a mortal soul.

[Shale]

A living celestial creature who already plane shifts once a day.

Also, people go to different entrances to the afterlife based on their religion. Once they're judged, they go to the same place - we see an Azurite soldier climbing the mountain with Roy, for instance. And we already know how the Twelve Gods feel about Miko.

[BillyJimBoBob]

In practical use, the vagueness allows the DM flexibility to adjust the rule to his game, whether for plot hook purpose or to keep a player in line.Yes, the portion I bolded is exactly what I meant when I said that the existence of these rules "invites conflict in [what] should be a fun pastime for the players and the GM." Keeping a player in line should not require even a single rule, much less one which strips a character of their class abilities and leaves them mechanically nigh-useless and broken from the perspective of the players concept of the character.

[The Pilgrim]

The other way around - he would visit her as often as he could. And the ability to travel between planes does exist, you know.

Also a Celestial has other duties than spend 24/7 with her former assigned duty's soul. So may not be the other way aroud at all.


Note also that Soon implied Miko's destination differed from the Sapphire Guard's. ("We will usher you to your destination as well.")

Wich might mean "we are going straight into the Celestial realm while you have still to stand trial at the Deva".

[The Pilgrim]

People will say that what Soon said about Windstriker visiting her as much as he is able proves she's in an upper plane (because Windstriker couldn't visit her in the Nine Hells) and that it proves that she's not in an upper plane (because there would be no limits on Windstriker visiting her in Celestia).

It strikes me that people don't automatically see wich of these two statements makes sense and wich one makes no sense at all. But, well, forums would be a rather boring place if everyone agreed on things.

[NerfTW]

I really don't think she's in the nine hells. This would be considered manslaughter due to her emotional state in the real world.

She made an error in judgment. A very costly, very horrible error that could have been avoided had she not been so focused on the gods speaking to her directly. Keep in mind the evidence she had and what she heard Shojo saying. She was distraught. The difference between her and a proper paladin is that she acted on emotion. Fear, if you would. A proper paladin would have verified Shojo's apparent evil status before declaring a punishment.

While she's no longer a paladin for very good reason, my best guess is she's neutral now. Going straight to evil and the nine hells over a crime of passion seems a bit harsh, especially when we're all willing to forgive Roy for leaving Elan to what he assumed was death at the hands of bandits. Miko had far more evidence, although incorrect, that Shojo was a traitor.

[BillyJimBoBob]

Several D&D sourcebooks contain examples of this trope [an evil character who believes that he is good, and is also doing good], so "trivial magics" can't completely erase it.

Usually, the evil character in these cases is a bit Miko-esque- refusing to admit they have fallen, thinking that it's all just a test by the gods.

Michael Ambrose in Tome of Magic is the most notable example.Several D&D sourcebooks also contain contradictory rules and fail to be consistent even within their own pages. They were written by authors who needed to fill them with enough "cool stuff" so that they would sell, and studious adherence to the rules laid out in prior books would have been terribly inconvenient. It's no real surprise that some of these supplements introduce characters who violate the rules. I've heard tell of a Paladin Succubus... And how cool is that?!?

[Shale]

It's not a far step from a Good cleric succubus, and Fall-From-Grace worked pretty well.

[martinkou]

I really don't think she's in the nine hells. This would be considered manslaughter due to her emotional state in the real world.

She made an error in judgment. A very costly, very horrible error that could have been avoided had she not been so focused on the gods speaking to her directly. Keep in mind the evidence she had and what she heard Shojo saying. She was distraught. The difference between her and a proper paladin is that she acted on emotion. Fear, if you would. A proper paladin would have verified Shojo's apparent evil status before declaring a punishment.

While she's no longer a paladin for very good reason, my best guess is she's neutral now. Going straight to evil and the nine hells over a crime of passion seems a bit harsh, especially when we're all willing to forgive Roy for leaving Elan to what he assumed was death at the hands of bandits. Miko had far more evidence, although incorrect, that Shojo was a traitor.

She didn't make judgements. She's the kind of paladin who simply uses Detect Evil to do the judgement for her, and when she sees anything marked as evil she'll kill without question. Emotion clouded Miko's mind towards the OOtS - but what exactly was that emotion? From what I can see, she simply wanted to exact vengeance upon the OOtS, and particularly on Belkar, and then used "justice" as an excuse. She even went so far to justify her vengeance on Shoujo and Hinjo by thinking she's special to the Twelve Gods.

So, in summary, Miko is -

Someone who uses justice as an excuse to exact vengeance upon others
Someone who kills indiscriminately just because a spell marks somebody as evil
Someone who has a God complex, and thinks she cannot be wrong because she's special


Twisting the law to one's desires; generally bloodthirsty and cares nothing about more peaceful ways of solving problems; and when the law doesn't work the answer is more violence? That's exactly the definition of Lawful Evil. The only difference between Miko and a pit fiend is that Miko hasn't yet realized that she's evil and she's not actively exploiting other people, yet. But if Miko continues to live on with her God complex, I'm sure she'll do that pretty soon.

So, my verdict: Either the Acheron or the Nine Hells. Acheron seems to fit her more in my opinion.


It's not a far step from a Good cleric succubus, and Fall-From-Grace worked pretty well.

Fall-From-Grace is more like the opposite of Miko, actually. Fall-From-Grace was born a succubus but she wanted to be good. Miko in OOtS-verse is more like Trias - born a deva but went on the become The Betrayer. Dragging a whole gate town to Curst for the "greater good", standing in the Administrative Building smugly when it's done, organizing a host to attack the gate of Paradise... almost a mirror image of Miko.

[Parlity]

She's the kind of paladin who simply uses Detect Evil to do the judgement for her, and when she sees anything marked as evil she'll kill without question.

Someone who kills indiscriminately just because a spell marks somebody as evil


I've seen a similar statement from RMcMurtry. Why do you believe that?


I doubt Luis is arguing that Miko's alignment was never LG - nothing I've seen him say indicates that

He argued that Miko's alignment was never LG in a different thread. I'm guessing this is where the Miko conversation split off to. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148882

[RMcMurtry]

I've seen a similar statement from RMcMurtry. Why do you believe that?



He argued that Miko's alignment was never LG in a different thread. I'm guessing this is where the Miko conversation split off to. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148882

Because simply being evil does not warrant a death sentence.

[Shale]

I've seen a similar statement from RMcMurtry. Why do you believe that?

Because she said so? "They were Evil, so I killed them!" is the phrase she uses when talking with Belkar's lawyer.

[Parlity]

Because simply being evil does not warrant a death sentence.

That's not what I meant. Why do you believe that Miko does that? Dodging the question a little aren't you?

[Parlity]

Because she said so? "They were Evil, so I killed them!" is the phrase she uses when talking with Belkar's lawyer.

So her words mean more than actions. Why do actions not speak louder than words for Miko? What about her makes her an exception?

[Shale]

Her actions say that, barring direct orders to the contrary, Miko kills first and asks questions never once she's convinced that somebody is Evil. See: Her first meeting with the Order (in which she attempted to kill a defeated Roy in direct defiance of Shojo's orders, because he scanned Evil), her fight with Belkar, her attempt at gathering information...