On the Origin of PCs or Start of Darkness?

[TheYoungKing]

I currently have enough money for ONE of the OoTS books. Seeing as I want as much exclusive content as possible, which of the two book only comics should I pick up?

[Shale]

Both are composed of high-grade, 200-proof exclusive content (warning: do not operate heavy machinery while reading Order of the Stick). Start of Darkness is by far the more relevant to the overall storyline, though.

[shadowkiller]

Origin is a fun read and gives some background on the Order. Start of Darkness ties in to the current plot and gives background on why some of the characters are doing what they are now. Also I think Start of Darkness is a bit better written.

[Herald Alberich]

Going solely by amount of content, Start of Darkness is longer and more packed with plot-significant backstory.

[JonestheSpy]

Origin is fun. SoD is just awesome on every level.

[The Wanderer]

In my opinion SOD is both a much better story and much more relevant to the plot.

Honestly, the only parts of Origin that I felt were new or actually deepened my understanding of the characters were the sections with Roy, Durkon, and how they met. Pretty much everything else could have been guessed ahead of time, even before some of it has since been covered in the comic. (Such as Haley's involvement with the Thieves Guild).

[Ancalagon]

Origins is good. Really, it's basically all the webcomic is. SoD is pure awesomeness, so if you can only get one, buy SoD.

Word of warning: if you come to OotS mostly for the giggles (yes, that audience exists as well), don't buy SoD. It's... different. It has many good jokes but it's more story than giggles and also pretty dark when compared to the rest of the webcomic (imagine a whole book of the darker moments of OotS and basically no light ones).

[hamishspence]

There's more than a few funny lines (mostly involving the MiTD and demon roaches) as well as lots of funny nods to other media, but in general, it does tend to be grimmer than the main strip.

[Procyonpi]

Origin is funnier, SoD has more relevant back story and some evil semi-epicness. take your pick.

[Cleverdan22]

I own both of them, and I definitely read Start of Darkness more. It's longer, and with recent plot developments, seems to be quickly becoming more important by far.

[sam79]

Personally, I prefer OtOotPCs; it is my second favourite of all the books and the cheapest too, so good value all round. But in terms of the maximum amount of exclusive content, SoD is bigger, both in terms of actual pages, and in terms of its scope and story.

It seems to be a widespread opinion (on this thread and the forum in general) that SoD is pure distilled awesomeness. I think this is to overstate the case somewhat and could raise expectations too high; but it is still very very good and well worth the asking price.

[OITS]

Origin is a fun read and gives some background on the Order. Start of Darkness ties in to the current plot and gives background on why some of the characters are doing what they are now. Also I think Start of Darkness is a bit better written.

That's exactly the point. OotPCs is a book full of fun, it's in the style of the first 200 strips (at least I'd say so), while SoD delivers almost vital information on Xykon (yeah, pun^^) and Redcloak. It shows you, that Evil does not equal evil and especially RC has far more depth than "Ooh, I want to kill all bad humans to make goblins the ruling race".

SoD if you like the story for the plot, OotPCs, if you miss the gags from the beginning.

[Fallbot]

Jumping on the SoD bandwagon. On the other hand, I bought SoD first, and was slightly disappointed that, when I finally got it, OtOoPCs wasn't as deep or epic. Don't get me wrong, it's still a good read, it just doesn't have the same wow factor, so it might be better to read it first.

[Gift Jeraff]

Completely ignoring plot, I actually found SoD funnier, but then again I'm partial to Xykon, the demon roaches, and Elan (who, along with V and Belkar, doesn't really have much screen time in Origins). I would only recommend Origins over SoD if Durkon is your favorite character.

[Meg]

I'd get Start Of Darkness if I could only get one. It's a bit better written, and really adds to the plot of the story. Unfortunately, I had the end spoiled for me, so the effect was diminished, but I still loved it. It can stand on its own, (with a bit of explanation, granted) and I used it to introduce my siblings to OOTS. It is significantly darker than the main comic though, and MUCH sadder.

[FoE]

Origins is a nice read. SoD is an essential read.

[Morthis]

Definitely SoD. OtOoPC's is good, I think it's worth the money, but SoD blows it out of the water.

Reading OtOoPC's, you'll get a fun comic similar to the online ones. You'll learn some backstory about the characters, but it isn't really relevant to the story, just interesting information. Anything relevant to the story relating to the order has already been said in the main comic as well.

Reading SoD, you'll get a much darker comic, and if you haven't read any of the spoilers on the forum, you'll probably be shocked by some of the events that happen. SoD will give you a much greater understanding of the villains, and why they act the way they do. Much of the story from SoD has never been explained in the main comic. For example, we know Xykon ranks above RC in team evil, but we don't know why. After SoD, you will know why, because there's quite a story to that.

[derfenrirwolv]

Definitely start of darkness.

OOPC's is like extra strips you haven't seen before. SoD is great googly moogly strips you haven't seen before, that will make you say "THAT'S why redcloak does all this stuff..."

[Dust]

It probably boils down to who you want to see in the book. Origins is the heroes we know and love, SoD revolves around the villains we love to hate.

[Danne]

Origin is fun. SoD is just awesome on every level.

You took the words right from my mouth.

If you have to choose, get SoD. Origin is a great read, so get that at some point if you can. But if it's one or the other, get SoD.

Edit: Also, Origin is older than SoD. It's a lot of fun, but it's also more rough around the edges. SoD was written after Rich had a few books under his belt. It's more polished, not quite so choppy. They're both great, but SoD is better.

[Dr.Epic]

Go with SoD.

[Studoku]

Another vote for SoD.

While Origins is funny, you're not missing out on anything by not reading it. SoD, on the other hand, offers a lot of backstory about Xykon and Redcloak and explains a lot of what Redcloak does in the online strip.

[Water-Smurf]

SoD is longer, better-written, and has more plot-relevant content. It gives you a deeper and more thorough understanding of Xykon, Redcloak, their motives, and the true nature of the dynamic between them. It will also make you feel depressed, angry, and sickened for weeks afterwards. I'm getting a little sick to my stomach just thinking about it (and I've developed a craving for fluff and Xykon's marrow since reading it).

OtOoPCs is lighter, and it's reminiscent to the style of the early comics--jokes every page or so, but a little thin on plot. It reveals a bit about Durkon and a taste of Roy, but other than that, it's not particularly relevant to anything. But it also leaves you with a nice feeling afterwards. It makes you smile, and though it's not memorable, it leaves a general happy impression that won't make you toss and turn for nights on end wondering at the morality of 'means to an end' and where the line between noble crusader and selfish refuse-to-be-wrong avenger is drawn, or if it's there at all. (God, I lost so much sleep to that...)

The point is, those are the pros and cons. Don't get one of the books based just on what people suggest, because it's really up to you how you want to feel after reading it. On one hand, you can feel depressed, wrathful, and conflicted, but in awe for weeks on end, or you can feel giggly and cheerful for about half an hour and then forget about it. Choose based on that.

[TheYoungKing]

Did... did I find something the GiTPers can agree on?

[Torick]

I agree largely with what's been said.

Origin is a lighter read - there's lots in the way of fourth-wall humor, pop culture references and generic D&D cracks, much in the style of the regular strip (particularly early on). It gives some character development to Durkon (who, in the regular strip, is one of the less-developed characters, and could use the backstory) and his relationship to Roy, but mostly it's just a backwards-extension to the regular strip - a true prequel, of sorts.

But, having bought them both at the same time myself, I simply value SoD far, far more than Origins. SoD, while sparser on the one-liners (or one-strippers, perhaps), gives an immense depth to the story and a glimpse into just how much thought has been put into it. Not only does it provide backstory to the villains (Redcloak's backstory is simply breathtaking, and more than a little thought-provoking), it provides a backstory for the primary plot elements themselves: the gates, the Plan, the Order of the Scribble, et cetera.

While I would fully recommend getting both of them (Origins is entertaining in the same way the regular strip is entertaining, though you won't learn a whole lot you didn't already know about the characters and story), SoD is the one you want to go for if you're only getting one.

[denthor]

Did... did I find something the GiTPers can agree on?

Yes since the majority of us are gamers we tend to like the darker material.


Water Smurf was by far the most informative of us. Start of Darkness is my choice and I own both.

Miko's commentary is a must read before you start the book in my opinion. There are dark deeds done and favorite icons of the comic world killed off and a scorned lover in a volcano. Bonus material includes the death of Paladins a good time is had by all. It also explains the current wrong eye joke that is now being used.

But evil does win and go unchecked it that book so be warned you poor misguided spawn of the pit there is no ransom for you should you even glance at the pages with in this tome Start of Darkness.


BA Ha ha ha ha


Thus you have been warned...

[Magicyop]

Origin is more lighthearted, also much shorter. Both are very nice, but SoD first, no question. It has a lot of content, a lot of insight into various characters, and it's really cool. Origin is mostly jokes and stuff, SoD is a little darker and deeper with still a lot of funny. Xykon after he first becomes a lich is hilarious.

[Faramir]

Origin is funnier, SoD has more relevant back story and some evil semi-epicness. take your pick.

This is the point I was going to make.

I definitely laughed more when reading Origin. There's definitely more information that helps with understanding the plot in SoD.

[Nimrod's Son]

Did... did I find something the GiTPers can agree on?
Pretty much. There's just no contest between the two, really. Origin is amusing but utterly non-essential; SoD is probably the best single book of the entire series.

[Giggling Ghast]

Be warned: if you were a Xykon fanboy, SoD will likely do nothing to endear the character to you. Rich did a good job showing that Xykon has always been a monster, even before he became a lich.

[The Pilgrim]

Well, the only thing I can say in defense of OtOoPCs is that most of the information in SoD has already been spoiled in the forums.

But, still... I agree with everyone, SoD if you care more about the plot, OtOoPCs if you care more about the laughts.

[TheYoungKing]

Be warned: if you were a Xykon fanboy, SoD will likely do nothing to endear the character to you. Rich did a good job showing that Xykon has always been a monster, even before he became a lich.

I like that he's a monster.

[Conuly]

Be warned: if you were a Xykon fanboy, SoD will likely do nothing to endear the character to you. Rich did a good job showing that Xykon has always been a monster, even before he became a lich.

I did feel kinda bad for Xykon in parts. Not, you know, bad like "Aw, I understand him, he's just misunderstood!" because he's still an evil monster and always bad, but bad like "Wow, even though he's evil, everybody else is still a jerk to him, they don't even think he's clever enough to see that they're insulting him at every turn."

Which is why I don't join in the "Xykon is So STUPID!" bashing that people occasionally have around here. SoD has taught me that people who do that have a funny way of ending up dead.

[Thanatosia]

And yet another +1 for SoD.

Water-smurf laid out the pros and cons better and more succintly then I ever could, her post is probably the one to refer to when making your decision.

[Giggling Ghast]

I like that he's a monster.

Well then, SoD is for you! He pulls off some of his most depraved acts in that book, the rubber ball of insanity notwithstanding.

[Kranden]

Theres nothing in Origin that will really give you a deeper understanding of a character. But in SOD it will really allow you to understand and relate to redcloak like you never have before.

[LuisDantas]

Did... did I find something the GiTPers can agree on?

It seems that you did. Shame on you. :smalltongue:

[Morty]

Did... did I find something the GiTPers can agree on?

I wouldn't know, there might be some people out there who don't like SoD for focusing on villains while the spotlight should be on heroes and for giving Redcloak a lot of depth so that he's not just an evil cleric to be stomped by heroes.

[pita]

Here's my problem with Start of Darkness...
In the introduction to OtOoPC, the Giant says that the reason he didn't give Belkar a tragic backstory is that it would make his actions in the strip not funny any more, but sad. He forgot that lesson for SoD. I can't read jokes from Redcloak from the first 200 pages. They just depress me.
Also, I would recommend reading OtOoPC first, because a scene in it is expanded upon in SoD, and it just makes more sense.

[Kish]

I don't think he forgot the lesson. Rather, Redcloak is meant to be primarily a serious/tragic character, and Belkar's almost entirely a humorous one.

[Blas_de_Lezo]

I've purchased both and I recommend you getting both sooner or later. However, answering your question, I have so much fun reading SoD!! :smallamused:

[jidasfire]

While it's hard to refute that Start of Darkness has a greater emotional impact and more impact on the story as a whole, I think it's a bit premature to say that Origin of the PCs is completely without merit in that regard. After all, we learn a great deal about Haley, Durkon, and particularly Roy. Haley's Thieves Guild subplot came into fruition (or mostly anyway) in the last book, and we learned of Durkon's big overhanging plot. On top of this, we get to see his development to the character he is today. Finally, we get to see why Roy is a worthy hero and leader, and why he has such a dysfunctional group of heroes at his back.

Start of Darkness is an amazing story, and as far as being well-written, it's hard to top. But even so, I came out of it feeling angry and depressed. I was genuinely scared of Xykon for being such a monster, and I hated Redcloak for his cowardice. Origin of the PCs, while not as deep or whatever, made me smile, and made me care more about the heroes.

[Giggling Ghast]

I wouldn't know, there might be some people out there who don't like SoD for focusing on villains while the spotlight should be on heroes and for giving Redcloak a lot of depth so that he's not just an evil cleric to be stomped by heroes.

Instead we learned that he's a cold-blooded murderer who's willing to commit reprehensible acts just so that he doesn't have to admit face his guilty conscience.

[Danne]

Instead we learned that he's a cold-blooded murderer who's willing to commit reprehensible acts just so that he doesn't have to admit face his guilty conscience.

You are overly simplifying the matter. Redcloak, for all his faults, is not a monster. He's a well intentioned but overall very weak individual. He wants to better his people, but he gets so caught up in fulfilling his grand Plan that he fails to see that he's harming them instead of helping them. "The ends justify the means," and all that.

And he's a coward, who knows when he's done something unforgiveable and is horrified at himself, but is too afraid to face the consequences of his actions, even when that just makes things worse for everyone.

Redcloak is not a good person (though he seems to have started out as one) but he is far too complex a character to sum up with just "he's a cold-blooded murderer."

[factotum]

You are overly simplifying the matter. Redcloak, for all his faults, is not a monster. He's a well intentioned but overall very weak individual. He wants to better his people, but he gets so caught up in fulfilling his grand Plan that he fails to see that he's harming them instead of helping them. "The ends justify the means," and all that.


He KNOWS that this Plan of his has the potential to end up destroying the world along with all his people--utterly destroy, as well, because the Snarl annihilates souls. Yet he thinks this is OK because whatever goblin analogues appear in the next world will have a fairer time of it? Not to mention that Right-Eye's village proved that goblinoids and the other races could live together in harmony and reasonable prosperity, yet even with that +6 Clue Hammer to the head Redcloak still continues along his destructive path.

Frankly, I consider him to be worse than a cold-blooded murderer--most cold-blooded murderers presumably never hold the arrogant belief that they could kill EVERYONE IN THE WORLD!

[Morty]

Instead we learned that he's a cold-blooded murderer who's willing to commit reprehensible acts just so that he doesn't have to admit face his guilty conscience.

Which is still a significant step up from "a goblin cleric who wants to conquer the world for his evil god".

[Danne]

He KNOWS that this Plan of his has the potential to end up destroying the world along with all his people--utterly destroy, as well, because the Snarl annihilates souls. Yet he thinks this is OK because whatever goblin analogues appear in the next world will have a fairer time of it? Not to mention that Right-Eye's village proved that goblinoids and the other races could live together in harmony and reasonable prosperity, yet even with that +6 Clue Hammer to the head Redcloak still continues along his destructive path.

Frankly, I consider him to be worse than a cold-blooded murderer--most cold-blooded murderers presumably never hold the arrogant belief that they could kill EVERYONE IN THE WORLD!

Redcloak's god has given him a mission. Redcloak is willing to die (and kill, and worse than kill) for what he sees will, eventually, help his people. I never said Redcloak is a good person (he isn't) or that he wasn't suffering from delusions of grandeur (he is). I'm not even saying that I like Redcloak. (I don't. He's a coward and a traitor, and the ending of SoD sent him from "entertaining bad guy" to "cowardly traitor" pretty firmly in my mind.)

It's just too complicated to state, "Redcloak is X." It's more, "Redcloak is X, but he is also Y and Z, for ABCDE reasons, some of which are understandable even if that doesn't change the fact that X is a bad thing."

And in his defense,
he did seem ready to give it all up after the rescued Monster-san from the circus. I don't have my book with me, but he says something to the effect of, "Gee, you might have something here. Want to set me up another date with that cute goblin chick?" Only, of course, that's when Xykon came back, thus destroying that potential reality (because Redcloak is Xykon's bitch too weak to disobey the litch).

[cc_kizz]

I'm very curious about the Order's origins. I wanted to get it, but decided to get both (based on what I've read here). I didn't, however, as the site I visited had Start of Darkness on backorder. Bummer. Can't wait to read On the Origin of PCs, though. :-)

[Itamarcu]

I agree with most of the people. As a wise old Chinese man said (or was quoted, actually):

"All of the books are equal, but some of them are just more equal than the others".