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Merk
2010-04-21, 09:29 PM
Hi,

I'll be playing a human beguiler in a game of Pathfinder soon and wanted some advice on how to give this guy options. Specifically, I'm looking for advice on feats, dips, and prestige class ideas; ideally ones that 1) advance beguiler casting, 2) give him things to do besides beguile and skillmonkey (such as deal damage), 3) expand (or effectively expand) his spell list. Here's some context:

My teammates consist of a druid (a newer player), an aasimar paladin, a crusader with homebrew disciplines, and a monk that bought off some LA. The campaign seems to slightly favor undead creatures, and is low-magic and low-magic item. Spellcasting is changed: the spellpoint system from UA replaces the vancian system, but spellpoints refresh each week rather than each day.

This is his current build:

Human level 5 Beguiler

STR 8 -1
DEX 12 +1
CON 13 +1
INT 18 +4
WIS 7 -2
CHA 12 +1

Feats:
H - Keen Intellect
1 - Darkstalker
3 - Obtain Familiar [Rat; this is for flavor]
5 - Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt)

Planned so far: mindbender dip at 6 at mindsight at 7.

EpicEvokerElf
2010-04-21, 10:48 PM
You want this. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2322.0)

Kosjsjach
2010-04-21, 10:50 PM
Versatile Spellcaster from Races of the Dragon is a pretty sweet feat for Beguilers, in no small way because it arguably lets you burn 2 slots of the highest spell level you can normally cast to fuel a spell of a level higher. For example, as a 5th-level Beguiler with 18 Int, you have 5 2nd-level spell slots. By expending two, you could cast any 3rd-level Beguiler spell.

Arguably.

Really, though, I think you're pretty set with what you have already... you're apparently the de facto trapmonkey; some Longspoon Thieves' Tools (Dungeonscape) would serve you well (as well as ranks in Search and Disable, if you haven't invested already).

EDIT: I re-read the part about the spellpoints variant. Don't know how Versatile Spellcaster would interact with that, so I guess my earlier advice is useless.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-21, 11:23 PM
Yeah, there's really not a lot of bad going with Beguiler. It's a skillmonkey battlefield control mage. What I'd suggest is to look over that spell list, look over the Guide as linked above, and really, really fall in love with your role. You're the rogue/spymaster out of combat, investing heavily in diplomancy and illusions, and you play as a conjurer/illusionist on the battlefield, confusing enemies and limiting their options while your party takes them to pieces. You're basically the dude every party wants around to make their job of killing baddies and winning rewards easier.

Make your Advanced Learning count with extremely versatile spells- Shadow Conjuration/Evocation, for instance. Don't fall prey to the trap that is Feinting in melee- it's great in theory, but it puts you in melee range, and that's a place you will never want to be. Instead, get as many bonuses to Hide and stealth skills as you can, and inflict grievous debilitating spells from the shadows. Pick up Complete Scoundrel to really get your skills to pay off- you basically can invest 2 skill points to get an awesome near-feat, a.k.a. Skill Trick, all of which are situationally cool.

Finally- Never stop playing the situations. Beguilers are intelligent, deceptive and capable of bending all those around them to their will. Scheme all the time, keep a few tricks up your sleeve. The best moments in your career involve the party surrounded, captured, delivered some ultimatum from the BBEG... and you turn to the baddie's right-hand man, deliver some witty remark, and he orders all his soldiers to change to your side. Work toward that shining moment of awesome. It is the way of the Beguiler.

Frosty
2010-04-22, 02:14 AM
There's not a lot of reasons to PrC out of a beguiler other than a 1 level dip into Mindbender to get telepathy and delay Advanced learning. Well, unless you're going full-cheese with Rainbow Servant that is.

Doc Roc
2010-04-22, 02:16 AM
Can you make him a Beguiler (Class) Beguiler (Race)? :)

Frosty
2010-04-22, 02:24 AM
Can you make him a Beguiler (Class) Beguiler (Race)? :)

No, all the entirety of the Beguiler race must take Warmage and specialize in spells with the [Electricity] descriptor.

Beguiler:
http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e189/Celestialdragon100/84366.jpg

Doc Roc
2010-04-22, 02:26 AM
Really? I always liked the idea of a race with true-seeing favoring a class about illusions.

Frosty
2010-04-22, 02:31 AM
Really? I always liked the idea of a race with true-seeing favoring a class about illusions.

They wouldn't favor an illusion-heavy class because they wouldn' appreciate the utility of illusions. A race with True Seeing constantly active would think illusions to be fairly worthless in fact.

Warning found in owner's manual: Please remember to feed and water you Beguiler at least twice a day. Keep pesticides away from them as they tend to have allergic reactions to pesticides. Lastly, we bear no responsibility for any consequences should you introduce a Thunderstone to your Beguiler.

Doc Roc
2010-04-22, 02:33 AM
Or they wouldn't understand why everyone took them so seriously, and why no one was laughing when jimmy ran into the hidden pit chasing the image of his childhood sweetheart.....

BobVosh
2010-04-22, 03:21 AM
I always enjoyed Beguiler/Wizard/Ultimate Magus. Not amazingly optimized, but does have int synergy, along with you can spec and negate ench/illusion with out much of a hitch.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-22, 03:46 AM
The campaign seems to slightly favor undead creatures, and is low-magic and low-magic item. Spellcasting is changed: the spellpoint system from UA replaces the vancian system, but spellpoints refresh each week rather than each day.

From what I can tell you have only two options: Get Arcane Disciple for the Travel domain so you can teleport back to town, rest for six days, and teleport back to the adventure. Or, don't make a traditional spellcaster, go with something like Arcane Swordsage instead, because that spells/day become spells/week bit just hurts way too much.

Gnaeus
2010-04-22, 05:57 AM
You say low-magic item...

Does that involve a nerf on crafting feats? If not, you take craft arms/armor, get the druid to take craft wondrous items (because the druid will want to Natural spell at 6). Then then craft like crazy, aiming for permanent items or all the charged toys in MIC that cast their spells 2-3 times per day. Pretend that you are artificers.

Merk
2010-04-22, 06:54 AM
Oh dear. Beguiler Beguiler sounds hilarious, but it's probably too silly for this campaign.

The spellpoints/week thing is definitely a big disadvantage, but supposedly we can eat magic rocks to get some SP back, and even when out of SP, I'm still a rogue without sneak attack basically, which is nice.

Crafting feats would be really cool. It would probably make use of the magic rocks, so I'd have to decide whether not replenishing my SP store is worth making items (probably is).

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-04-22, 07:36 AM
Definitely make Eternal Wands of the most useful low level spells, such as Web and Haste. That will get you a few uses/day that you won't need to spend your weekly spell points on.

The 'magic rocks' part looks like it could be one of two things:

1. They're expensive enough that they don't trivialize the spell points/week change. Be careful not to spend any significant portion of your loot on them, and only use them when absolutely necessary.

2. They're cheap and easy to get, the spells/week change was intended to make the magic rocks an iconic feature of the game. The setting's economy is driven by these rocks, and they're affordable enough that most of the spell points you spend will have come from them rather than your weekly refill. Expect the plot of the game to be driven by a disruption in the supply of these rocks, and expect the cost of them to soar due to this turn of events.

In the case of (1) you should have them on hand just in case you need them, similar to potions and scrolls. Try to play conservatively, using your spell points only when necessary. Given that you're supposed to have four encounters/day, that would be 28 encounters/week. You may as well just not cast any spells at all unless it is absolutely necessary to do so, and save what you have for the more challenging/important battles. Magic items with a set number of uses/day will be seven times better in this case, so stock up on them.

In the case of (2) the rocks will be the primary source of regaining spell points, and the weekly recharge won't really matter all that much. Since this situation will surely result in the rocks becoming rare and expensive as the plot progresses, you should stock up on them while they're cheap, as long as they won't lose potency in storage. If they would, stock up on Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) to make everlasting magic rocks. Once they become rare and valuable, sell them at an inflated price and make a huge return on your investment.

Frosty
2010-04-24, 11:38 PM
Get reserve feats...lots of them.

Abd al-Azrad
2010-04-24, 11:56 PM
In the case of (2) the rocks will be the primary source of regaining spell points, and the weekly recharge won't really matter all that much. Since this situation will surely result in the rocks becoming rare and expensive as the plot progresses, you should stock up on them while they're cheap, as long as they won't lose potency in storage. If they would, stock up on Unguent of Timelessness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#unguentofTimelessness) to make everlasting magic rocks. Once they become rare and valuable, sell them at an inflated price and make a huge return on your investment.

There is metagaming, and there is taking advantage of the fact that you live in a narrated world to set yourself up for a future windfall, based on the knowledge that the narrative will likely require a specific, predictable calamity in order to be interesting/contrived. To summarize... niiice.

Interestingly, my advice for you doesn't really change much knowing the impact of spells per week rather than spells per day. Other than playing more conservatively with your magics, which... honestly, if you ever encounter a foe willing to go nova to beat you, call shenanigans. And teleport away, obviously. Nova is only a viable tactic when the opportunity cost is low (i.e. you don't expect to fight a significant foe for the eight hours you can stay in your Rope Trick). A spellcaster expending their ability to cast spells ought not to exist in this sort of world. The incentives are stacked too heavily against such a tactic. If they fail, their opponents have a whole week to track them down, likely using their reserves of magic to do things like gather more magic (raiding magic-stone supply houses, etc.). If they succeed, their other opponents (you never have just one) will have a week to track down their now-unprotected rears.

Really, I'm seeing weekly recharge as leading to a very different world than most D&D worlds. Arcanists working primarily from the threat of world-ending violence, and an endless charade of posturing and calling each others' bluffs. In such a world, a Beguiler, with their mastery of diplomancy, will do incredibly well.

Rixx
2010-04-25, 03:39 AM
There's not a lot of reasons to PrC out of a beguiler other than a 1 level dip into Mindbender to get telepathy and delay Advanced learning. Well, unless you're going full-cheese with Rainbow Servant that is.

"Yeah, around a couple of months ago I decided to try a brief stint in manifesting mysterious latent psionic powers."

Thespianus
2010-04-25, 03:45 AM
"Yeah, around a couple of months ago I decided to try a brief stint in manifesting mysterious latent psionic powers."
+1
:smallsmile: