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BobVosh
2010-04-21, 11:47 PM
I have never played a psion, and we needed a caster. The casting in this game is psions, and I wanted the more wizardy types (I.E. no psiwarrior, soulknife, etc).

So I want to know three things: which is more balanced, which is more fun and which is easier to learn?

Actually make that four: is there another class that is more fun, obviously all these questions are in your opinion.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-21, 11:55 PM
Psion is more powerful, but still weaker than the Big Five. Wilder gets fewer powers and no discipline powers at all (unless you take Expanded Knowledge) and its other features don't make up for the loss in versatility. But it really depends on what the power level of the campaign is. They both lose to Batman and CoDzilla, but they're both a lot stronger than most non-full-casters.

Fun is far too subjective for anyone to say. Personally I prefer the psion because I like having more options, but someone else might prefer the wilder's randomness. Pretty much any class can be fun if you play it right, so again it depends.

As far as ease of learning, again it's somewhat subjective, but the psion's lack of class features probably makes it easier overall.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-21, 11:57 PM
I have never played a psion, and we needed a caster. The casting in this game is psions, and I wanted the more wizardy types (I.E. no psiwarrior, soulknife, etc).

So I want to know three things: which is more balanced, which is more fun and which is easier to learn?

Actually make that four: is there another class that is more fun, obviously all these questions are in your opinion.Wilders tend to be a bit more powerful early on, but they're quickly overshadowed by psions (except in certain circumstances, such as a telepath in an undead-heavy campaign).

Psions get a wider array of powers and skills, and get bonus feats (which are good for psionic characters, since they tend to be very feat-intensive). They also get discipline powers, which tend to be more powerful in general (though a few are lackluster, like, say, burst, which sucks). They also tend to get more skill points and high Knowledge checks, due to a high Int.

Wilders are more powerful early on because AC and hp matter more in the beginning, and wild surge is great at level 1 (it doubles your ML, damage, duration, and everything!). Unfortunately, wild surge gets worse as you go along, since enervation gets closer and closer to 100% the more class levels you get. PrC out at the first opportunity. Also, their power selection is piss-poor, and most of the rest of their class features range from decent to icky.

I suggest psion, really. If you want wilder flavor, take Overchannel and head toward the anarchic initiate PrC (from Complete Psionic). This gives them wild surge, and their enervations suck a lot less than a wilder's (due to no pp loss, cuz they don't have ANY levels in wilder). That, and they qualify for the class more easily, due to actually having the prereq skills as class skills.

WTH, WotC?

They're both easy to learn, though you'll have more options to remember as a psion.

As for fun...who can say? I don't know what gives you your jollies, but my favorites are shaper and egoist.

So...yeah. Psion all the way.

Yukitsu
2010-04-21, 11:59 PM
I think wilders are more fun to play personally. Plus it's charisma based, which means thrallherd is a better option for a wilder than a psion.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 12:01 AM
I think wilders are more fun to play personally. Plus it's charisma based, which means thrallherd is a better option for a wilder than a psion.Several psion disciplines give Cha skills as class skills, so they're not that far behind, since they do give incentive to have a decent Charisma.

BobVosh
2010-04-22, 12:10 AM
So general consensus is: Psions are great, more versatility. However you don't really go wrong if you go wilder?

Oh I forgot to mention, I really don't plan on optimizing heavily...or for that matter really at all. I'm just going to go straight X. The table isn't set, but I'm not expecting the other players to optimize much.

If you think it will matter: my preference is to have a character with lots of options, but not really have on going effects that stack quickly to great power. Factotum, wizard, beguiler, and PF's summoner are some classes I liked. I can't really think of many that do that second bit that I didn't like, other than PF's inquisitor. It annoyed me a lot for some reason.

Draz74
2010-04-22, 12:10 AM
Yeah, Wilder is still a good class ... if you pick your Powers Known carefully.

Trekkin
2010-04-22, 12:16 AM
To add my two power points, Wilders are the better class for those who want to do a few things with a high potential for putting a lot of yourself into one power. It lets you go nuts with Energy (insert shape), but you won't have a large enough stable of powers to be truly versatile.

Psions tend to be more utilitarian in their final construction, and frequently defined by their discipline. You will have a larger stable of powers more restricted by the standard psionics rules than the wilder, and will branch out more into your discipline at your option. I find it's actually simpler, or at least more consistent.

In short, I second/third Psion for learning the system. It saves you pondering whether or not to surge and you can be versatile enough to blast, control, and buff in the same character.

Incidentally, if you mean to say that there are no nonpsionic casters in your group, how are you healing? I would recommend a Life Domain Ardent if your group has trouble in this regard.

BobVosh
2010-04-22, 12:33 AM
Uh, I haven't considered healing really. Its a strange game as we are using D20 for combat as its the one system we all know, but most other things are covered by the other rule set. So its mainly free form out of combat, utility will be nice as we can just have our character do it, but not essential.

TBH I'm not sure how much it is going to work, but I am also building a NPC psion-type, and wasn't sure which works better.

Zaq
2010-04-22, 12:38 AM
It's easy to screw yourself over as a wilder, but if you pick your powers known well, then they're very useful. (Protip: EK: Astral Construct is TOTALLY WORTH IT.) Just look at every power and ask yourself "will I be using this in every fight, or at a BARE MINIMUM every day?" If the answer is no, don't take it. The same goes for feats: Ask yourself, "is this better than Expanded Knowledge?"

Generally speaking, a wilder needs powers that augment well and scale with level... but don't be afraid to take one or two that don't, if they're just that good. (Dimension Door is a rare example.)

It's a lot harder to screw up a psion. They can take bad powers too, but they at least have a lot more wiggle room. Wilders are by no means weak... just limited.

Trekkin
2010-04-22, 01:03 AM
Indeed. If you want to stretch your creativity and see how many ways you can use a few powers, the Wilder is an excellent challenge. As they say, when all you have is a knife, you'll find a way to stab all your problems.

The Ardent has a stable of powers intermediate between the two extremes, and they are usefully divided into domains. They're rather like clerics, really (they also get armor proficiencies, so if you want to, say, stuff one in Mechanus Gear armor from the Planar Handbook and make a walking tank, there is less of a problem).

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 01:09 AM
With wilders, you'll want to PrC out the moment you're able to do so, as enervation sucks away more and more power points the longer you stay in; not to mention that you have a higher chance of enervating.

...Of course, wild surge is the entire reason you'd really want to be a wilder, which you give up if you PrC out (which is horrible).

Frankly, I don't like wilders. I think they're badly designed on a number of levels, not the least of which is because it has class features penalties that get worse as you level, rather than better, and the other class features are lackluster, at best. If you do become one, grab the ACF that grants you Expanded Knowledge (educated wilder). You'll need it. That, or the mantled wilder. Or both! They're from The Mind's Eye (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a).

Psions and psychic warriors are great (especially psions), but that's my subjective opinion, of course. I'd never play a wilder if I could help it (and I can).

Pluto
2010-04-22, 01:22 AM
Without the Educated Wilder variant, the lack of discipline-specific powers is a huge turn-off.

BobVosh
2010-04-22, 05:27 AM
So any pittraps, and what discipline should I look into?

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 05:36 AM
Pit trap - not taking a level of Factotum and then PrCing into Anarchic Initiate at the first opportunity.

Seriously. Do it. You'll thank me.

(I would also suggest being human and taking Able Learner, unless you have a lot of skill points to burn on cross-class skills.)

Edit: That is, if you're playing a Wilder. If a Psion... ignore that bit about Factotum and just PrC into Anarchic Initiate at the first opportunity. :smallwink:

Quirinus_Obsidian
2010-04-22, 05:36 AM
Depends on the play style. If you want to go massive blaster, Kineticist. If you want to be utilitarian; I think Egoist may be good; that is where all the good buffs are. Shaper is always nice for the Astral Construct; but in general the rest of the discipline powers are not that great. My personal favorite is Telepath. :smallcool:

As "un-optimized" (what the fap that means... I dunno) as it is, every good group needs someone that can drop tons of d6's on enemies; the "blaster" type. Which is why Psion is a good way to go. Wilder is great for a nova type thing, or someone that likes to base their character off of CHA.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 05:38 AM
No, every group needs someone who can deal damage. Straight +x to damage is far better than xd6 energy damage. If you want a damage dealer, use a Psychic Warrior and abuse charging Power Attacking Psionic Lion's Charge Shock Trooper. :smallwink:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 07:39 AM
I think when built correctly a wilder can be a better dmg dealer then a psiwarrior though thats mainly IMO.

Wilders are harder to play because you litteraly have to super specialise or blow most your feats on expanded knowledge

Yora
2010-04-22, 08:28 AM
With wilders, you'll want to PrC out the moment you're able to do so, as enervation sucks away more and more power points the longer you stay in; not to mention that you have a higher chance of enervating.

I just made some calculations up to 10th level.
As pp rise faster than pp loss by enervation, the percentual loss of pp gets increasingly smaller with every level. I don't know if it's good math, but I also multiplied this ammount by the chance for psychic enervation happening, and on average you lose between 1,3 to 1,8% of your pp total for every manifested power.
Could very well be that my math is flawed here, and I am not sure if you'd have to take into account that you manifest much more powers per day at higher levels. But I think the cost for using wild surge remains quite stable.
And Enervation Endurance can cut the cost by half. Though it might be a good house rule to make it a free bonus feat at 1st level.
Level|Wild surge|PP total|Loss of PP total|x Chance for Enervation
1|+1 (5%)|3|33%|1,65%
2|+1 (5%)|8|25%|1,25%
2|+2 (10%)|14|21%|2,1%
4|+2 (10%)|23|17%|1,7%
5|+2 (10%)|35|14%|1,4%
6|+2 (10%)|47|13%|1,3%
7|+3 (15%)|60|12%|1,8%
8|+3 (15%)|74|11%|1,65%
9|+3 (15%)|90|10%|1,5%
10|+3 (15%)|108|9%|1,25%
The last column should be the average loss of PP total every time a wilder manifest a power with maximum wild surge.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 09:30 AM
I think when built correctly a wilder can be a better dmg dealer then a psiwarrior though thats mainly IMO.

Wilders are harder to play because you litteraly have to super specialise or blow most your feats on expanded knowledge

Educated Wilders (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) get 5 free EK feats in exchange for their crappiest class feature. There's no reason not to take the ACF if it's allowed.

Lycan's Egoist is strong, but all those delightful buffs and form shifts can be dispelled. A Wilder, however, is a strong gish even with his protections stripped away - and Wild Surging before buffing makes them even harder to get rid of.

Enervation is rarely a problem. How often will you be surging past +2 or +3? 10-15% failure rate isn't much to worry about, especially once you add in daze immunity tricks or postpone enervation.

Kylarra
2010-04-22, 09:43 AM
4, not 5, but otherwise yes. Trade away a weird situational power for more powers known yesplz.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 10:21 AM
I'm getting the two psionic threads confused - Lycan's egoist build is in the "gish" one.

And thanks Kylarra, my mistake.

Yora
2010-04-22, 10:24 AM
Trading an ability that doesn't help you at all, for increasing your powers known by +50%. And limited powers is supposed to be the class weakness.

I would use it as a standard class feature instead of an alternate one.

Ecalsneerg
2010-04-22, 11:13 AM
I find Wilder make a decent sort of rogue/gish/something-style class. With d6 HD, armour proficiencies and 3/4 BAB, they've got a slight advantage over Psions in that regard. And Elude Touch is quite nice.

sreservoir
2010-04-22, 11:17 AM
have you considered erudite? that way you don't get screwed over by bad powers-known choices. (if you run into bad UP/D choices, you might be useless for the rest of the day, though.)

and since you "need a caster", being able to cover arcanist with spell-to-power is occasionally useful.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 11:22 AM
I find Wilder make a decent sort of rogue/gish/something-style class. With d6 HD, armour proficiencies and 3/4 BAB, they've got a slight advantage over Psions in that regard. And Elude Touch is quite nice.

Also shield proficiency - neither of which interfere with their casting. :smallwink:

Elude Touch also lets them add their Shield, Armor and Natural AC back onto their Touch AC (assuming their Cha is high enough; and why wouldn't it be?)

They are frequently underestimated.

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 11:26 AM
have you considered erudite? that way you don't get screwed over by bad powers-known choices. (if you run into bad UP/D choices, you might be useless for the rest of the day, though.)

and since you "need a caster", being able to cover arcanist with spell-to-power is occasionally useful.

Yes, the most broken ability in the entire game is only occasionally useful.

sreservoir
2010-04-22, 11:33 AM
Yes, the most broken ability in the entire game is only occasionally useful.

it's not that bad without outright abusing it. it still doesn't scale automagically, it's still limited by UP/D, and you can't pull off metamagic shenanigans as easily. the premise of erudite is probably more broken in and of itself. it's just that there are a lot more badly-written spells than powers.

(I mean, archivist can do most of that.)

(you know, I think tainted spellcasting might be a tad more broken.)

really, it's mostly the spells that are broken, not the ability. it's broken in the same way as wizard.

2xMachina
2010-04-22, 11:37 AM
And you pay XP per spell known. It's not much, but if you want a bunch, you'll feel it.

Draz74
2010-04-22, 11:38 AM
Yes, the most broken ability in the entire game is only occasionally useful.

Manipulate Form? :smalltongue:

herbe
2010-04-22, 11:45 AM
In my oppinion,Psion is stronger variant of Sorcerer while Wilder a weaker variant.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-22, 11:51 AM
In my oppinion,Psion is stronger variant of Sorcerer while Wilder a weaker variant.

With ACF's, Wilders can hold their own.

sreservoir
2010-04-22, 12:00 PM
incidentally, you could use the spell points variant.

I've seen someone try a power slots homebrew project, but that didn't end well.

Samb
2010-04-22, 12:45 PM
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4368.0

wilder handbook written by yours truly.

Wilder is a Gish class, no it's and or buts about it. If your party needs a dedicated caster then go psion because a wilder has very few powers to go around. The exceptions are a wilder/cognition > telepath and shifter wilder = or > egoist. Cognition thief gets up to 9th level telepath powers as well as PLAs making them strictly better than a telepath, a shifter wilder gets access to all egoist powers but has wild surge.

The people who say "wild surge gets worse as you level" don't have their facts and/or math correct. I would take a look at the link I provided for a more academic look at wild surge and take the advice of some skeptics with a grain of salt. Wild surge is awesome and better than overchannel is every way, anyone who tells you otherwise plainly didn't bother doing the math or remember that wild surge provides free augmenting PP to offset ennervation.

If research or permenant tattoos is allowed by your DM then wilder is a no brainer and just plain better than a psion. The imterperptation I get from research is that only psions can duplicate other preexisting powers while all psi classes can only make new powers, with DM consent of course.

Edit: if you guys use Untapped potential then the Meanad wilder eliminates the chance of dazing with ennervation. Like educated ACF, this is a must for wilders.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 12:57 PM
My suggestion: go with this combo

Race: Synad
Class: Spell-to-Power Erudite 7/Ur Priest 3/Eldritch Theurge 7/Arch Psion 3

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 12:57 PM
As Samb noted: Wild Surge both raises the ML cap and pays the augment bill for you. Overchannel just raises the cap, then slaps you in the face and sticks you with the check.

Anarchic Initiate is nice but not necessary by any means. If you're never going to WS past +3 anyway there's no reason to take a PrC that advances WS further. Go with Meditant, Crystal Master, Slayer and/or Sanctified Mind instead.

EDIT:


My suggestion: go with this combo

Race: Synad
Class: Spell-to-Power Erudite 7/Ur Priest 3/Eldritch Theurge 7/Arch Psion 3

1) I think you meant Psychic Theurge;
2) Your combo is unfortunately MAD (Wis from UP, Int from Erudite)
3) Arch Psion is 3.0 and cannot be converted due to missing feats without rule 0.

Samb
2010-04-22, 02:00 PM
Since someone mentioned sancitfied mind and synad.....

Sanctified mind is a psionic PrC found in LoM that gives full BAB and allows you ignore stun and daze effects equal to your class levels per day. Wilder get ennervated? No she didn't! This PrC was not made to kill aberrations, it was made for wilders to kill everything else.

Synad gains great bonuses on saves and can add +2 on any d20 roll once per day. The real gem of this race is multitask which lets you get an extra mental swift action. Say your wilder gets dazed from ennervation, use multitask to manifest temporal acceleration (and link it for moar cheese) and profit.

Advanced tattoos:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4319.0

A few permanent tattoos of psyreforms will make a psion's main advantage of more powers a moot point. Psyreform in battle as a swift action without XP costs. If your DM allows it, you should stop asking "psion VS. Wilder" and just go wilder.