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KurtKatze
2010-04-22, 02:55 AM
Hi guys,

atm we are making new characters for a campaign soon to start. One of my freinds wanted to take the "deflect magic?" ACF from PHB 2 for his 5th level scout. I already told him, that i find that option somewhat bad compared to evasion.

To the point:

It states that spells which deal dmg and need a to hit roll are subject to this ability. Now, ray of enfeeble and ray of clumsiness do not deal ability dmg but bestow an ability penalty... so i wonder if they are subject to the deflect ability. Same question occurs with chain spell and the reflex save of the second target for half dmg. They only get the save if the spell deals damage.
So what about enervation, ray of enfeeble and ray of clumsiness?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Superglucose
2010-04-22, 02:57 AM
The answer is "no."

BobVosh
2010-04-22, 03:23 AM
Nope, also see the Simple Q&A D&D 3.5 (by RAW) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148242).

Dr Bwaa
2010-04-22, 03:29 AM
The answer is "no."

To elaborate (not that I can find what page this ACF is on...), it sounds like that only kicks in against things that "do damage," right? That ONLY means "damage." Not "ability drain" or "level drain". Just regular old damage (and fire/cold/sonic/etc damage I assume). This would apply against things like Orb of Acid and the like, but not an Empowered Maximized Twin-ray Enervation.

So, the question you're trying to ask is "is 'damage' the same as 'ability damagedrain'?" and the answer to your question is indeed no.

EDIT: Fixed my silliness (and a couple typos)

taltamir
2010-04-22, 05:32 AM
So, the question you're trying to ask is "is 'damage' the same as 'ability damage'?" and the answer to your question is indeed no.

he specifically pointed out that ray of enfeeblement /clumsiness do NOT deal ability damage, but apply an ability PENALTY which is a different thing

So there are several questions:
1. Does ability damage count - no
2. Does ability penalty count - no
3. Does level drain count - no
4. Does elemental damage count - I think it does
5. Does untyped damage count (eg, disintegrate) - I think it does

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 05:41 AM
Ability damage is damage. Anything that counts 'damage' also counts ability damage - sneak attacking, for instance.

Ray of Enfeeblement doesn't deal ability damage. But a ray spell that deals ability damage? Perfectly acceptable.

Runestar
2010-04-22, 06:19 AM
To make a weak ability that little bit better, I would propose a simple rule.

Does the effect of the spell get doubled on a crit? If yes, it is damage. :smallamused:

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 06:21 AM
To make a weak ability that little bit better, I would propose a simple rule.

Does the effect of the spell get doubled on a crit? If yes, it is damage. :smallamused:

Yes, exactly. Any spell that needs a to-hit roll and deals something with 'damage' in the name doubles the damage on a critical hit. Which is why it's damage. :smallwink:

You're not proposing a new rule. That's... how weaponlike spells work, as per Complete Arcane.

(Sneak attacks add hit point damage to ability damaging spells, though. Negative energy damage, if you're wondering.)

KurtKatze
2010-04-22, 02:18 PM
Ahh, very nice thank you guys^^ I see an argument about that coming with our dm ^^ especially about the ability penalty and chain spell, so of course he can use fiat but at least this backs my reading of the rules up :)