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~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 07:59 AM
Why does Half-Elf suck? It qualifies for Elf and Human stuff... So why?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 08:04 AM
Why does Half-Elf suck? It qualifies for Elf and Human stuff... So why?

how many good things are elf or human only?

Mordokai
2010-04-22, 08:11 AM
Why does Half-Elf suck? It qualifies for Elf and Human stuff... So why?

You're thinking 4E. I can remember no such thing for half elves from 3.5. They were basically just humans without bonus feat and skill point, which made them sucky mechanically. Personally, I still liked the flavor.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 08:13 AM
You're thinking 4E. I can remember no such thing for half elves from 3.5. They were basically just humans without bonus feat and skill point, which made them sucky mechanically. Personally, I still liked the flavor.

actualy i belive races of destiny made them qualify for "human" stuff.
they had :
"Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf."

paddyfool
2010-04-22, 08:15 AM
This is what you get over a human:


•Immunity to sleep spells and similar magical effects, and a +2 racial bonus on saving throws against enchantment spells or effects.
•Low-Light Vision: A half-elf can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
•+1 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
•+2 racial bonus on Diplomacy and Gather Information checks.
•Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf.

- The skill bonuses are kind of nice... probably not worth as much as +1 skill point per level to any non-diplomancer build, mind you, but handy all the same.
- The rest, though is very meh. Immunities/resistances to some rather specific effects and an ability replicable by a cheap item is not equivalent to a feat.

Some people rebalance the half-elf by giving them the +1 skill point per level that humans get (ditto half-orc, alongside weapon familiarity with orcish weapons and maybe not taking the hit to Cha). That may be going a bit far, since you're then getting quite a bit in return for trading in a feat... but the race is still of much more limited use than human (it becomes a decent choice for a skillmonkey, but that's about it).

Mordokai
2010-04-22, 08:23 AM
actualy i belive races of destiny made them qualify for "human" stuff.
they had :
"Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-elf is considered an elf."

Which, in my mind, still doesn't equal to what half elves get in 4E. A free choice of every feat, item, paragon path and epic destiny available to human, elf and half elf.

Really, the elven blood was more of a flavor thing than anything else. It didn't came up all that often anyway (unless you had a petty DM who didn't like elves) and even less so, seeing people playing half elves were far and few between. In all my time I played 3.5 (two and a half years), we had one half elf character and I was the idiot playing it.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 08:27 AM
Which, in my mind, still doesn't equal to what half elves get in 4E. A free choice of every feat, item, paragon path and epic destiny available to human, elf and half elf.

Really, the elven blood was more of a flavor thing than anything else. It didn't came up all that often anyway (unless you had a petty DM who didn't like elves) and even less so, seeing people playing half elves were far and few between. In all my time I played 3.5 (two and a half years), we had one half elf character and I was the idiot playing it.

We actualy have a few in our games. Though i think its more for fluff reasons then mechanics. In my 10 yrs of 3.5 of playing i've played 1 and we have had atleast 6-10 of them in my groups.
Humans still beat them out in popularity in my group but i wouldn't say there the least played eaither... that goes to half orcs which even with my boosts no one wants to play.


edit:

and i agree the elf blood is mostly flavor. cept for a few PRC's its realy usless.

HunterOfJello
2010-04-22, 08:27 AM
Half-elves are the ugly children of two beautiful parents.


Humans are awesome. They work great with every class. They get a bonus feat and bonus skill points. Everybody loves extra feats at first level and extra skill points. They also have Favored Class: Any which can come in handy if you have a lame DM who actually enforces multiclassing rules. Finally, humans get Bonus Languages: Any which can be useful if you want your human radish farmer to be able to speak abyssal and infernal right off the bat.

Elves are alright at most classes and good at a few. Their +2 Dexterity is nice for many casters and rogue-type characters, but the -2 Constitution is harsh to deal with. Elves get weapon proficiencies with Elf weapons which constitutes a very nice list of 4 often-used weapons (this is useful for most casters). Elves also get an assortment of bonuses to all sorts of different skills and abilities: +2 to listen, spot and search, concealed door stuff, immunity to magic sleep, +2 vs. enchantment spells (very nice for characters with low will saves), low-light vision (which can come in handy) and more.

If you don't mind taking a hit to your hp from that -2 Con then Elves are a great race with lots of assorted benefits.


~~

Now we get to half-elves.

No matter what class you play, either a human or an elf will work as a better character than a half-elf.

Half-Elves get no stat adjustments. They inherit a few of the abilities that elves have, but they get the half-assed versions. The sleep and enchantment saves are the same as elves and then the bonuses to spot, listen and search are half of what elves get. Their only claim to fame is their +2 to Diplomacy and Gather Information.

From their human parents half-elves get Bonus Languages: Any, which is decent and a very slight plus. Then they get Favored Class: Any, which is only useful in campaigns that are bad in the first place.

~~

Overall Half-Elves are frowned upon because they end up playing like a super generic 0 abilities medium sized race. Their best feature is low-light vision, which can be obtained from several other core races that are going to work better. If the Half-Elves were given the bonus skill points that a Human gets and the bonus weapon proficiencies that an Elf gets, then they might be worthwhile for a few characters to play, but they don't get either of those or any decent abilities from their parents.

In the end, the Half-Elf is bland and featureless in a feature filled line-up of core races.

Foryn Gilnith
2010-04-22, 08:29 AM
No matter what class you play, either a human or an elf will work as a better character than a half-elf.
As a pedantic note, half-elves see quite a bit of use in diplomancy-focused builds. On the same note, I would argue that their +2 diplomacy is their best feature, as opposed to low-light vision.

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 08:29 AM
My favourite character so far was a half elf, but it would've been the same if I had no racial abilities since I dont think any of them ever had an impact on gameplay

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 08:31 AM
My favourite character so far was a half elf, but it would've been the same if I had no racial abilities since I dont think any of them ever had an impact on gameplay

half elf bards in perticular.

Mordokai
2010-04-22, 09:00 AM
Half-elves are the ugly children of two beautiful parents.

Correction. They are the beautiful children of two beautiful parents.

And half elves are my favourite part of 4E. No longer a poster child, they are now truly at their best. Whatever human or elf can do, half elf can do it to and do it better. They finally made half elves the best race of them all... at least as far as I'm concerned. In 3.5, they were just flavorful. Now, they are also powerful. And I'm loving it.

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 09:03 AM
And back in 2nd ed it was the only race besides humans who could be bards, and had no level cap.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-22, 09:06 AM
This is what you get over a human:



- The skill bonuses are kind of nice... probably not worth as much as +1 skill point per level to any non-diplomancer build, mind you, but handy all the same.
- The rest, though is very meh. Immunities/resistances to some rather specific effects and an ability replicable by a cheap item is not equivalent to a feat.

Some people rebalance the half-elf by giving them the +1 skill point per level that humans get (ditto half-orc, alongside weapon familiarity with orcish weapons and maybe not taking the hit to Cha). That may be going a bit far, since you're then getting quite a bit in return for trading in a feat... but the race is still of much more limited use than human (it becomes a decent choice for a skillmonkey, but that's about it).

Elven bonuses come up more often than you think:
They have semi-immunity to paralysis.
1) Carrison crawlers
2) Ghouls

Granted, individual species of monsters have these powers (not listed in PC race setup).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:14 AM
And back in 2nd ed it was the only race besides humans who could be bards, and had no level cap.

ya they where pritty decent in 2nd ed

Escheton
2010-04-22, 09:27 AM
half elves can take the half elf racial paragon class, then take both the elf and human one.
Only good if you start a lvl 1 rogue and work in a wizard lvl before you get wizard and other spell levels though.
But the flavor, ow the flavor, it is sooooo rich

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 09:30 AM
Half elf/human/elf Paragon
I did it! It took me nine levels but now I am the epitome of human and elven perfection!

Elven Wizard:
I can fly!

:smalltongue: I agree with the flavour, I once playethe above example, so suboptimal, so much fun.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:33 AM
Half elf/human/elf Paragon
I did it! It took me nine levels but now I am the epitome of human and elven perfection!

Elven Wizard:
I can fly!

:smalltongue: I agree with the flavour, I once playethe above example, so suboptimal, so much fun.

I'd love to play a character like that to bad it isn't raw...

actualy i'd like to do a half orc like that. Taking all three paragons.

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 09:35 AM
I think part of the fun was the fact that we were suboptimal, there was a moment in wich we sneaked into a palace, it took the guards a few seconds to notice us, my highest skill was Perform (Interpretative Dance) wich I tried to use to pretend that I was the town's fool and have them let me go.

It was a fun night in jail.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:52 AM
I think part of the fun was the fact that we were suboptimal, there was a moment in wich we sneaked into a palace, it took the guards a few seconds to notice us, my highest skill was Perform (Interpretative Dance) wich I tried to use to pretend that I was the town's fool and have them let me go.

It was a fun night in jail.

assuming you could ignore the divided ancestory clause of only 2 and could take all 3 i bet a
half elf wizard 1/half elf paragon3/Human paragon 3/ elf paragon3
wouldn't be that bad.
Count as a 5th wizard for casting Would be kinda gishy.

Escheton
2010-04-22, 09:52 AM
I'd love to play a character like that to bad it isn't raw...

actualy i'd like to do a half orc like that. Taking all three paragons.

you have to get dm approval to use UA paragon classes but otherwise I think its pretty raw.
or is that what makes it non-raw?

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:54 AM
you have to get dm approval to use UA paragon classes but otherwise I think its pretty raw.
or is that what makes it non-raw?

Nope you can only take 1 paragon class. Half-X breaks that by saying you may take the half-x class and on of the parent classes...

For example half elf could take helf elf and (human or elf)

Kylarra
2010-04-22, 09:54 AM
you have to get dm approval to use UA paragon classes but otherwise I think its pretty raw.
or is that what makes it non-raw?Divided ancestry says you can take the paragon class of one of your parents, but not both.

Divided Ancestry (Ex)

Unlike other racial paragons, half-elves can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a half-elf paragon, a character can take either elf paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).

Divided Ancestry (Ex)

Unlike other racial paragons, half-orcs can take levels in more than one racial paragon class. After gaining at least one level as a half-orc paragon, a character can take either orc paragon levels or human paragon levels (but not both).

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 09:55 AM
assuming you could ignore the divided ancestory clause of only 2 and could take all 3 i bet a
half elf wizard 1/half elf paragon3/Human paragon 3/ elf paragon3
wouldn't be that bad.
Count as a 5th wizard for casting Would be kinda gishy.

proceed then with a gishy PrC and you might have something...
Although a straight factotum would acomplish almost the same...:smallconfused::smallyuk:

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:57 AM
proceed then with a gishy PrC and you might have something...
Although a straight factotum would acomplish almost the same...:smallconfused::smallyuk:

probebly, but i hate factotem.

there's alot of ways to do it better. I was just saying its not suboptimal.

Now if you where playing FR, and went half drow, and could break the divided ancestory rule. and you took the feat that gives you some of the racial spell likes (i think drow noble or something)
then take all 4 paragon paths that would be interesting and conflicting.

Telonius
2010-04-22, 10:29 AM
Just took a trip through Crystalkeep. Here are the Feats that require Elf (or Half-Elf):
Complementary Insight (RoD)
Sociable Personality (RoD)
Elven Spell Lore (PHB2) - alternate qualification is 17 INT.
Divine Sorcery (Corellon or Pelor) (Dragon)
Elf Dilettante (RotW)
Focused Mind (RotW)
Lightfeet (RotW)
Diverse Background (RoD)
Heroic Destiny (RoD)
Human Blood (Dragon)
Protected Destiny (RoD)
(Several Faerun regional feats, PGF)
(Several Eberron elf feats, Eb, PGEb, RoEb)
(Several Greyhawk regional feats, Dragon)

And PrCs:
Arcane Archer (DMG)
Bladesinger (CWar)
Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW)
Darkwood Stalker (CWar)
Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGF)
Heir of Siberys (Eb)
Mystic Keeper of Corellon (Dragon)
Outcast Champion (RoD)
Scar Enforcer (RoD)
Seeker of the Misty Isle (CDiv)
Skylord (BoED)
Wildrunner (RotW)
Elf Paragon (UA)
Half-Elf Paragon (UA)
Human Paragon (UA)

None of the PRCs are particularly good mechanically. Possible exception is Seeker of the Misty Isle, which grants the Travel domain in the first level. However, you need to have 8 ranks in survival to qualify for it, so unless you're willing to lose a caster level you're better off not taking it until level 14. Since it loses you a caster level at 5th and 10th anyway, it's a one-level dip at most. Outcast Champion isn't terrible. Not sure about Wildrunner; I don't have RotW.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 10:32 AM
Just took a trip through Crystalkeep. Here are the Feats that require Elf (or Half-Elf):
Complementary Insight (RoD)
Sociable Personality (RoD)
Elven Spell Lore (PHB2) - alternate qualification is 17 INT.
Divine Sorcery (Corellon or Pelor) (Dragon)
Elf Dilettante (RotW)
Focused Mind (RotW)
Lightfeet (RotW)
Diverse Background (RoD)
Heroic Destiny (RoD)
Human Blood (Dragon)
Protected Destiny (RoD)
(Several Faerun regional feats, PGF)
(Several Eberron elf feats, Eb, PGEb, RoEb)
(Several Greyhawk regional feats, Dragon)

And PrCs:
Arcane Archer (DMG)
Bladesinger (CWar)
Champion of Corellon Larethian (RotW)
Darkwood Stalker (CWar)
Evereskan Tomb Guardian (PGF)
Heir of Siberys (Eb)
Mystic Keeper of Corellon (Dragon)
Outcast Champion (RoD)
Scar Enforcer (RoD)
Seeker of the Misty Isle (CDiv)
Skylord (BoED)
Wildrunner (RotW)
Elf Paragon (UA)
Half-Elf Paragon (UA)
Human Paragon (UA)

None of the PRCs are particularly good mechanically. Possible exception is Seeker of the Misty Isle, which grants the Travel domain in the first level. However, you need to have 8 ranks in survival to qualify for it, so unless you're willing to lose a caster level you're better off not taking it until level 14. Since it loses you a caster level at 5th and 10th anyway, it's a one-level dip at most. Outcast Champion isn't terrible. Not sure about Wildrunner; I don't have RotW.


Actualy... some of the better mechanical ones are :

Champion of Corellon Larethian -2nd level dex to dmg
Seeker of the Misty Isle - travel domain
wildrunner - rage esc class feature based on dex

I think scar enforcer or outcast champ is good.

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 10:42 AM
None of the PRCs are particularly good mechanically. Possible exception is Seeker of the Misty Isle, which grants the Travel domain in the first level. However, you need to have 8 ranks in survival to qualify for it, so unless you're willing to lose a caster level you're better off not taking it until level 14. Since it loses you a caster level at 5th and 10th anyway, it's a one-level dip at most. Outcast Champion isn't terrible. Not sure about Wildrunner; I don't have RotW.

Wht does this reminds me of pokemon?

Mordokai
2010-04-22, 11:06 AM
Certain redhead was named Misty? Or did I fail my Recognise Sarcasm check again?

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 11:12 AM
Nay, I think it was because of the mirage island in pokemon ruby.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 11:20 AM
Scar Enforcer is REALLY cool, and an Archivist 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Archivist 3/Contemplative 5/Sovereign Speaker X (can't remember if its 5 or 10) is still a divine powerhouse who makes Clerics cry

Kylarra
2010-04-22, 11:39 AM
Scar Enforcer is REALLY cool, and an Archivist 1/Half-Elf Paragon 3/Human Paragon 3/Archivist 3/Contemplative 5/Sovereign Speaker X (can't remember if its 5 or 10) is still a divine powerhouse who makes Clerics cryIt's just an archivist that traded away 3 caster levels for... +2 to a stat twice, a class skill, 2 bonus feats, and some miscellaneous skill bonuses.

Slightly better than the dark knowledge increase, bonus feat and lore mastery that 6 more levels of archivist would've gotten, but not really much in comparison to an equivalent number of good PrC levels.

Fishy
2010-04-22, 11:53 AM
Half elves are the only ones cool enough to be Windwright Captains. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050803a&page=3)

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 12:40 PM
It's just an archivist that traded away 3 caster levels for... +2 to a stat twice, a class skill, 2 bonus feats, and some miscellaneous skill bonuses.

Slightly better than the dark knowledge increase, bonus feat and lore mastery that 6 more levels of archivist would've gotten, but not really much in comparison to an equivalent number of good PrC levels.

True, but he's still a powerful caster. Heck, I have essentially every spell in D&D, multiple domains, and am a Paragon

Escheton
2010-04-22, 12:58 PM
right, so basicly you are the correct use of the word paragon

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:01 PM
right, so basicly you are the correct use of the word paragon

Yatzee. You are the epitome of a Half-Elf (any rude/crude/lacivious comments will be met with a longsword slap across the face) and are an idol of the Half-Elves and the Envy of Elves and Humanity