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View Full Version : Why is Arcane Magic better than Psionics?



gallagher
2010-04-22, 10:52 AM
i guess the title says it all, why are wizards better than psions? are sorcerors, then, also better than wilders?

also, do psions have a counter-power ability, like how arcanists can counter-spell?

kamikasei
2010-04-22, 10:56 AM
More and more abusable spells than powers, wizards can amass more of them and change them daily, low-level spells autoscale, metamagic is more abusable than metapsionics because the latter has the psionic focus cost; those are the main points.


also, do psions have a counter-power ability, like how arcanists can counter-spell?

You can't counterpower a psion, but I think a psion can counterspell an arcanist using dispel psionics. And because of the flexibility of augmentation, they can actually do it pretty well.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-22, 10:57 AM
In most cases, arcane spells are more powerful than their psionic equivilants.

However, if the powers were equal in strength to spells, psions would be far and away more powerful than wizards as the flexibility in manipulation of one's Power Points makes conservation and approriate use of force far easier than the Vancian fire and forget system. As a result giving greater range of power and less restriction on when/how it is used.

2xMachina
2010-04-22, 10:58 AM
Also, Psion is more like a stronger Sorc. It does not have unlimited powers known.

Wilder is an even more limited Sorc.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 11:01 AM
There are rules for countering powers in Hyperconscious. Third party, but it's written by Bruce Cordell, the mastermind behind the XPH.

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 11:03 AM
What happens if we consider the Erudite?

Ecalsneerg
2010-04-22, 11:07 AM
What happens if we consider the Erudite?

Do you refer to the Spell-to-Power Erudite? It's not strong due to being psionic. It's strong due to being an Archivist on crack.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 11:12 AM
The normal Erudite is about equal with a Psion. More Powers Known, but the UPD is severely limiting early on. The free psicrystal is a very nice touch though.

Sadly, no Autohypnosis :smallfrown:

Coplantor
2010-04-22, 11:15 AM
UPD power depends if you play by the table or by the text, as far as I understand, the text makes it ridiculously powerful.

SaintRidley
2010-04-22, 11:16 AM
More support, generally more abusable results of said support.

Main reasons, in my mind.

gallagher
2010-04-22, 11:16 AM
Do you refer to the Spell-to-Power Erudite? It's not strong due to being psionic. It's strong due to being an Archivist on crack.

is spell-to-power erudite an ACF? and if so where can i find it?

and how do you figure that it is an archivist on crack?

2xMachina
2010-04-22, 11:17 AM
When you know all the Psionic powers + Discipline and Arcane and Divine, 11 UPD per spell lvl is still probably isn't all that much. :P


is spell-to-power erudite an ACF? and if so where can i find it?

and how do you figure that it is an archivist on crack?

Web expansion: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a

You can learn Arcane spells as powers. And some cheese lets you take divine ones too (people with Divine as Arcane spells).

You now know all magic.

(Also, like Mantled for full Magic Transparency. Hello breakage.)

However, you need a ton of XP to learn them all (mostly because there's so damn many spells)

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 11:26 AM
An StP Erudite unfortunately can't learn 9th-level spells until Epic, because he can only learn spells below his maximum power-level.

But he's broken the game long before that - getting infinite power points with Mental Pinnacle, or tossing out Forcecages free of charge.


When you know all the Psionic powers + Discipline and Arcane and Divine, 11 UPD per spell lvl is still probably isn't all that much. :P

If your DM goes with that interpretation, he deserves what he gets.

2xMachina
2010-04-22, 11:33 AM
An StP Erudite unfortunately can't learn 9th-level spells until Epic, because he can only learn spells below his maximum power-level.


Teleport through time.

I send my Epic Thrall Erudite back in time to Psychic Chirurgery all lvl 9 spells to me. Also, Thought Bottle to help XP.

Heck, do it on your lvl 1 erudite. I'm lvl 1 with an Epic Thrall!

(Expect the DM to throw books at you).

Amphetryon
2010-04-22, 11:34 AM
More support for the casting style, and a mechanic that tends to promote more endurance than psions, combine to make arcane generally superior, all else being equal.

sreservoir
2010-04-22, 11:37 AM
Teleport through time.

I send my Epic Thrall Erudite back in time to Psychic Chirurgery all lvl 9 spells to me. Also, Thought Bottle to help XP.

Heck, do it on your lvl 1 erudite. I'm lvl 1 with an Epic Thrall!

(Expect the DM to throw books at you).

you could probably pull off psicrystal leadership shenanigans for this, too.

Godskook
2010-04-22, 11:59 AM
By 'better', I assume you mean more broken? It isn't by much, if at all, really. The Psion is tier 2, which is tier 1 powerful, but with limited scope.

sreservoir
2010-04-22, 12:05 PM
By 'better', I assume you mean more broken? It isn't by much, if at all, really. The Psion is tier 2, which is tier 1 powerful, but with limited scope.

well, even the non-StP erudite can be game-breakingly powerful. it's just harder than for wizards, due to lack of as many choices.

Trekkin
2010-04-22, 12:11 PM
In my humble and fragmented opinion, the power gap between arcane and psionics increases in direct proportion to the number of supplements used. Core spells are indeed more broken than XPH powers, but every additional book adds new spells, while few add new powers. Thus, if you want to run a campaign in setting X where standing still for more than five seconds lights your ears on fire, there is probably a spell they added to prevent that, but not a power.

This gets even worse in third-party material, where you have entire books of nothing but new spells for specific schools and perhaps a single book dealing with all things psionic.

In short, arcane magic gets MUCH better than psionics when you allow more books, and they stay competitive if you limit the books used to a minimum. Of course, those limits can mean psionics players get really creative with the powers they have...and really bruised from the books thrown at them in response. :smalleek:

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 12:25 PM
Psionic powers are better at some things - like time travel, as previously noted. Also, not being counterable, not requiring components, suffering no failure chance in armor, and being designed for a more modular points-system.

While you can make up the difference in lists by researching powers (that are identical to the spells you want to copy,) researching spells that mimic powers will still at least require a component to cast, thereby having at least that inherent limitation.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 12:42 PM
Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level. A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-22, 12:47 PM
Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level. A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

What about Wings of cover for a funny:no!

FS: Destruction!
Sorceror: Power Word No! (wings of cover)

Really, Sorcerors can beat FS.
Cleric are the harder one due to turning feats (DSP, DMM, Champion Devotion feats, etc).

Edit: I meant Wings of cover :smallredface:

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 12:49 PM
Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level.

I can see your argument from a base class perspective, but arcane does tend to get the better PrCs, and ACFs.


A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

I disagree here; Favored Souls are decent at healing, but MADness means they'll either have very weak magic, or blow through it much too quickly. A Sorcerer meanwhile only has to focus on one stat.

@ Starbuck - I think you mean Wings of Cover there.

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-22, 12:50 PM
I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 12:52 PM
I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

That Archivist can do the same to you, with Archivist/Psion/Psychic Theurge. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)

In fact, they get even more action abuse thanks to Battle Blessing powering their heals and dispels.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 12:52 PM
I think I could probably beat an Archivist with a Cerebromancer. The action advantage from both powers and spells is very potent in pvp.

Right... Go ahead and use 7th level spells and powers, while I use 9th level divine spells. Seems underpowered, eh?

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 12:54 PM
That Archivist can do the same to you, with Archivist/Psion/Psychic Theurge. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b)

I concour. and, this is a powerful combo, being as how Archivist has every spell in the books. Although personally, I'd go with a Spell-to-Power Erudite on the other side

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-22, 01:04 PM
You said divine was better than arcane and psionic combined. If the Archivist has access to all the wizard spells, then he's using arcane, as far as I'm concerned. If he's a Psychic Theurge, then he's not just divine anymore.

At any rate, I agree that an Archivist with access to any spell has a bit of an edge over the Wizard, and retract my challenge if that's the case.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:06 PM
You said divine was better than arcane and psionic combined. If the Archivist has access to all the wizard spells, then he's using arcane, as far as I'm concerned. If he's a Psychic Theurge, then he's not just divine anymore.

At any rate, I agree that an Archivist with access to any spell has a bit of an edge over the Wizard, and retract my challenge if that's the case.

Archivist has spells off the Wizard's, Bard's, Paladin's, Cleric's, Druid's, Assassin's, and all others in his list.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 01:08 PM
For the record, I don't think Divine beats Arcane/Psionic combined. Combining two systems is generally superior to one, unless one of them is Truenaming. :smalltongue:

But a straight Archivist vs. a Cerebremancer of equal level will have a bit of an edge due to class features and higher-level spells. The right powers (e.g. Synchronicity) can offset this. It's a bit too complicated to tell.

Starbuck_II
2010-04-22, 01:10 PM
For the record, I don't think Divine beats Arcane/Psionic combined. Combining two systems is generally superior to one, unless one of them is Truenaming. :smalltongue:


Hey, if there was a Full casting Prc that also 10/10 Truenaming progression, it wouldn't be bad. It might be decent.

It just wouldn't be broken.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:11 PM
For the record, I don't think Divine beats Arcane/Psionic combined. Combining two systems is generally superior to one, unless one of them is Truenaming. :smalltongue:

But a straight Archivist vs. a Cerebremancer of equal level will have a bit of an edge due to class features and higher-level spells. The right powers (e.g. Synchronicity) can offset this. It's a bit too complicated to tell.

I meant Archivist beats BOTH arcane and psionics, as in D vs A and D vs P

DragoonWraith
2010-04-22, 01:13 PM
Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum.
The general consensus of the CharOp community disagrees with you, as far as I am aware. May not actually mean anything, but worth noting.


An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level.
Only if he has gotten access to quite a few key spells off of the Wizard list. Possible, but not entirely trivial. And the Wizard could always get the (much fewer) important Cleric/Druid spells onto his own spell list (though generally not as Wizard 20, since that's mostly through PrCs). An Archivist who's using only spells from the Cleric and maybe Druid lists? Not likely, as far as I know. The d6 HD doesn't help all that much, nor does the good Fort save, and Dark Knowledge, as far as I can tell, does nothing for a solo Archivist (Dark Knowledge repeatedly refers to giving its bonuses to "them" and "his allies" - I don't think he's an ally of himself, and there is no indication that I can see that he gets the bonus as well.) The other features don't actually affect anything.


A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20.
No. Favored Soul does not have the Archivist's obvious access to off-list spells. The Sorcerer's list is better enough to more-than compensate for class features and HD.


How? Healing spells,
Not really all that important, especially in a one-off PvP combat scenario, since in-combat healing is atrociously inefficient, and no Arcanist of a level equal to that at which a Divine caster gains Heal is going to care about HP damage in the first place.


and real class features.
Minor and unimportant compared to the power of spells.

Not saying either class is weak, far from it. The Archivist can easily win if he does, in fact, get considerable access to the Wizard's spell list, which he can easily do. But the statement you're making is inaccurate. Divine casters have better stats and class features than Arcanists because Divine spell lists are that much weaker than Arcane ones. Therefore, Arcane magic is superior to Divine magic.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 01:16 PM
An archivist might get more spells, but throw in prestige classes and it tilts back toward arcane. Theirs are just better overall, and the most broken ones (Incantatrix, Iot7V, et al) will blow away any divine opponent.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:17 PM
Not saying either class is weak, far from it. The Archivist can easily win if he does, in fact, get considerable access to the Wizard's spell list, which he can easily do. But the statement you're making is inaccurate. Divine casters have better stats and class features than Arcanists because Divine spell lists are that much weaker than Arcane ones. Therefore, Arcane magic is superior to Divine magic.

Sorry cowboy, but I must disagree with you on that one. Wizard may have nice spells, but an Archivist can use almost any spell (any with the right feats) out of the box

and lets not forget Druid and Cleric. Clearly, my friend, Divine > Arcane.

However, both Arcane & Divine > Psionics

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:18 PM
An archivist might get more spells, but throw in prestige classes and it tilts back toward arcane. Theirs are just better overall, and the most broken ones (Incantatrix, Iot7V, et al) will blow away any divine opponent.

Sovereign Speaker, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Dragon Prophet, Church Inquisitor, and the list goes on from there

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 01:19 PM
Here's one for the Arcane-Divine grudge match - who would win, an Incantatrix or a Planar Shepherd? An Iot7FV, or a Dweomerkeeper?

DragoonWraith
2010-04-22, 01:26 PM
Killer Gnome beats all four. Can't answer to those specific match-ups, though my guess would favor the Divine PrCs, simply because their broken features are more outrageous.

Anyway, I agree that the Archivist has criminally easy access to any spell he could ever want, so yes, he would win. But that's because he's using Arcane spells as Divine; if he restricted himself solely to the normally-divine spells instead, he would not win. Because those spell lists are not as strong as the arcane ones.

The Sorcerer/Wizard spell list is the strongest in the game. The fact that the Archivist can get spells off of it makes that particular class very, very powerful, but it does not really show that Divine magic is stronger than Arcane, excepting those times when the Divine magic in question is from an Archivist with extensive access to the Sor/Wiz list.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 01:32 PM
Sovereign Speaker, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, Dragon Prophet, Church Inquisitor, and the list goes on from there

Divine Oracle is also available to arcane, so that one doesn't count.

Incantatrix, Iot7V, Archmage, Master Specialist, Anima Mage, Abjurant Champion, Mage of the Arcane Order, and the list goes on. Arcane has better prestige classes.

Optimystik
2010-04-22, 01:35 PM
Arcanists also get (shudder) Tainted Scholar.

...Which I just noticed is a Warlock PrC. Is it still broken on them? (Sorry if I derail.)

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:38 PM
Arcanists also get (shudder) Tainted Scholar.

...Which I just noticed is a Warlock PrC. Is it still broken on them? (Sorry if I derail.)

I refuse to ackowledge the Existence of Tainted Scholar. It's all a cruel joke, like Beholder Mage, Pun Pun, and Pebblo, the unstoppable pebble god

DragoonWraith
2010-04-22, 01:38 PM
I didn't mention Tainted Scholar because I assumed it was a generic spellcasting class. Does it actually specify Arcane? In that case, haha, Arcane wins.

God, that PrC is bad.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:40 PM
I didn't mention Tainted Scholar because I assumed it was a generic spellcasting class. Does it actually specify Arcane? In that case, haha, Arcane wins.

God, that PrC is bad.

Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...The Cake is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...Tainted Scholar is a Lie...

hamishspence
2010-04-22, 01:42 PM
Warlocks already have the ability to use unlimited incantations per day.

I'm not sure how the "bonus spells" would translate to "bonus incantations" since a Warlock doesn't gain bonus incantations with increasing ability score.

Claudius Maximus
2010-04-22, 01:46 PM
I agree with DragoonWraith. The fact that an Archivist with free spell selection is the strongest base class doesn't mean that divine magic on the whole is stronger than arcane. If we ignore the Archivist for a moment, I'd say arcane is superior. If the Archivist exists but can only use actually divine spells, it's much closer, but I'd still give it to arcane. If the Archivist has all arcane spells on top of all divine spells, obviously it's better than arcane magic alone, but then I would not consider that a point in favor of divine magic itself.

Godskook
2010-04-22, 01:48 PM
Divine is better than both combined. Divine is the ultimatum. An archivist thats 20th level will ALWAYS beat a wizard of the same level. A Favored Soul 20 will always beat a Sorcerer 20. How? Healing spells, and real class features.

1.Wizards *have* some of the greatest class features out there. They're called prestige classes.:smalltongue:

2.Healing spells? Really? People laugh at the FS, Archivist and Cleric for using them, and you're saying that's the reason they're better than the Wizard/Sorc? Let me introduce you to Arcane Disciple(Healing Domain). Wizards can heal, they just don't want or need to. Actually, polymorphing into a troll is a far better use of one's actions than casting most healing spells.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:49 PM
I agree with DragoonWraith. The fact that an Archivist with free spell selection is the strongest base class doesn't mean that divine magic on the whole is stronger than arcane. If we ignore the Archivist for a moment, I'd say arcane is superior. If the Archivist exists but can only use actually divine spells, it's much closer, but I'd still give it to arcane. If the Archivist has all arcane spells on top of all divine spells, obviously it's better than arcane magic alone, but then I would not consider that a point in favor of divine magic itself.

What of Druid, who has the second best Casting list of all and wildshape?

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 01:53 PM
What of Druid, who has the second best Casting list of all and wildshape?

Wildshape basically makes them a better version of the fighter. It still loses to magic, if done right.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-22, 01:54 PM
Wildshape basically makes them a better version of the fighter. It still loses to magic, if done right.

Wildshape + Primative Wildshape + Frozen Wildshape + Natural Spell = Spellcasting Primative Cryohydra

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 02:06 PM
Wildshape + Primative Wildshape + Frozen Wildshape + Natural Spell = Spellcasting Primative Cryohydra

Wall of force, solid fog, hold person, flesh to stone, metamagic death orb. Two spells that automatically make you waste actions, save or die spells against two different saves, massive damage against touch AC. And that's only five spells, and not even using some of the more broken ones. Wizards have way more win buttons, and having some extra heads doesn't change that.

TheYoungKing
2010-04-22, 02:07 PM
It's all a cruel joke, like Beholder Mage, Pun Pun, and Pebblo, the unstoppable pebble god

Pebblo? What is Pebblo? Only one here I haven't heard of.

Gnaeus
2010-04-22, 02:13 PM
Sorry cowboy, but I must disagree with you on that one. Wizard may have nice spells, but an Archivist can use almost any spell (any with the right feats) out of the box

By that logic, so can the Rogue.

For an archivist to be able to use any spell requires a huge amount of gold and a magic mart type setting in which high level clerics with rare domains or people with wierd PRCs sit around making scrolls for the archivist to buy and scribe. In that world, any class with UMD is a virtual tier 1.

Doodleface
2010-04-22, 03:08 PM
I wouldn't say it's better. It's just different. Psions and Wilders really aren't the psionic equivalent of Wizards and Sorcerers. They are different in there own way.

Some things in psionics are better than there arcane counterpart. As long as you're playing the rule that magic is equal to psionics for everything from dispel magic (so it would also dispel psionics and vice-versa) and spellcraft checks (which would double as psicraft checks.)

erikun
2010-04-22, 03:16 PM
Psionic powers were intentionally designed to be less broken than their Arcane counterparts. That is, Psionics were created after the core Wizard spells were released, so the designers had a chance to see what worked, what didn't, and what worked too well when crafting the Psionic powers.

Arcane also have more sourcebooks and more prestige classes, ultimately resulting in more overpowered and poorly balanced spells and classes.

Mind you, Psionics are generally easier to play than Arcane, thus it is easier to create a strong, playable Psion than to create a strong, playable Wizard. This tend to produce calls of "Psionics is broken!" which is only really true if not fully understanding the Arcane system is supposed to be a balancing point. :smallfrown: