Ivory Elves and Half-Elves <3.5>

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

http://www.illuminent.nl/PHP/albums/userpics/10001/Overlord-Ghost-Elf.jpg

Born originally as standard High Elves, the conclaive was obliterated by a force unknown, which nearly killed off this sect of elves. Those who survived however, were different.

Description: Ivory Elves, as they are now called are bleach white in hair and flesh, with eyes without irises. They have an "air" of an alien-ness wherever they step. They dress plainly, and rarely wear jewelry, reguardless of caste.

Half-Bloods are more flush than their parents, often also with non-white haircuts and facial hair.

Personality: Cold as a winter's biting wind is the wit and emotion of the Ivory Elves, as if they are "detached" from the world. Their minds allegedly aren't connected to their bodies, but act more like a puppeteer, controling the body. Even with this serenity, they do interbreed, if one calls non-intercourse reproduction "interbreeding", if only to continue their curse. Their half-blood children are more like the non-elf parent, often full of vibrance and life.


Ivory Elves as Players:

Type: Outsider (Native, Elf)
Darkvison 30ft Black and White only
Low-Light Vision as Elves
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 ft.
Follow Darkvision rules here instead of Normal Outsider's
Bonus Feat (Hollow): Ivory Elves get the feat Hollow from the Ravenloft book Champions of Darkness at 1st level
Class Restriction: Ivory Elves cannot be Barbarians, Sohei, or Avenging Druids. - Due to their detachment from the world and the parting of their soulsd, they feel no emotion, so they cannot rage
Skills: -2 to all social skills except Sense Motive and Bluff - Due to their "alien-ness," Ivory Elves are out of place in a social situation. However, this allows them to outwit and read their opponents.
Blank Mind: -1 Initiative and Reflex Saves - Due to their "detached-ness", Ivory Elves are less aware of their surroundings
Proficiencies: All Simple
Ability Scores: +4 INT, -2 CHA, -2 CON ; The Ivory Elves are great intellects, but are as frail as their "lesser" cousins and are very "odd" indeed.
Favored Class: Wizard or Archivist
CR: 1
LA: 0


Ivory Half-Elves as Players:

Same as Half-Elf, except:

Outsider (Native, Elf, Human)
Hollow as Ivory Elf
+1 Skill Points/Level
Class Restrictions as Ivory Elf
-2 to social skills except Bluff and Sense Motive as parent
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Any thoughts y'all?

[Spiryt]

Interesting race.

Question:

Does "Control Spells" mean Dominate, Suggestion, and similar spells?

Also, it seems that + 4 to intelligence makes them kind of braindead choice for Wizard, also the only race LA 0 race with +4 bonus I can recall also takes -2 net to stats (poor Orc suck of course, but still).

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Interesting race.

Question:

Does "Control Spells" mean Dominate, Suggestion, and similar spells?

Also, it seems that + 4 to intelligence makes them kind of braindead choice for Wizard, also the only race LA 0 race with +4 bonus I can recall also takes -2 net to stats (poor Orc suck of course, but still).

1. Yes. Due to their detachment from the universe, they cannot be controlled

2. i also put Archivst for those who love Divine Magic over Arcane (such as myself)

BTW, two edits have been added

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Ivory Elves as Players:

Type: Outsider (Native, Elf) - After the Cataclysm, Ivory Elves were forever changed, no longer simply elves, but more than that.
Size: Medium
Speed: 30 ft.
Elf Blooded: For the sake of PrCs and Feats, Ivory Elves are elves.
Hollow: Due to the unpredicted effects of the Cataclysm, Ivory Elves have no "soul", which grants them immunity to Energy Drain, Theft of the Soul, Magic Jar, Malevolence of Ghosts, Possession of any form, and Control Spells, but cannot be Resurrected by normal means (Wish for instance, works).
Proficiencies: Scimitar, Longbow, Whip, Greataxe, and Any weapon with Elf or Elven in its name
Ability Scores: +4 INT, -2 CHA, -2 CON ; The Ivory Elves are great intellects, but are as frail as their "lesser" cousins and are very "odd" indeed.
Favored Class: Wizard or Archivist
CR: 1
LA: 0

Alright. LA +0, and the Outside type. Fair enough, although you might want to specify that the traditional "proficiency with all simple and martial weapons" isn't applicable, nor is the 60 foot Darkvision.

Immunity to Energy Drain, Possession, and all control spells is mind-numbingly good. Those are some of the nastiest things around. As an Outsider, you already can't be resurrected by normal means...and that's not really a downside, necessarily. At least, not one I'd like to see as a balancing factor in a PC race.

The proficiency list is quite good, and really haphazard. It gives them a lot of strong Exotic weapons (the Elven weapons are potent), as well as powerful melee and ranged martial weapons, and weapons suitable for pretty much all types of builds. Why do they get these weapons?

Their ability scores are just screaming "Min-max me as a Wizard or Archivist!" WotC tends to avoid more than +2 to mental stats at LA +0 for a definite reason...

All in all, they're a little to powerful, especially when geared to a caster. I'm not sure how this all makes sense either...I'd need to see more racial explanation and flavor. Why do these abilities make sense for them?



Type: Outsider (Native, Elf, Human)
Hollow as Ivory Elf
Proficiencies of Ivory Elf
+2 Skill Points/Level

...more skill points/level than Humans, the go-to race at being good at skills? Sorry, but there's no reason for that to make sense. The race is also decidedly uninteresting aside from that, while still slightly to good in some places due to the strange proficiency list and the crap-ton of immunities.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Alright. LA +0, and the Outside type. Fair enough, although you might want to specify that the traditional "proficiency with all simple and martial weapons" isn't applicable, nor is the 60 foot Darkvision.

Immunity to Energy Drain, Possession, and all control spells is mind-numbingly good. Those are some of the nastiest things around. As an Outsider, you already can't be resurrected by normal means...and that's not really a downside, necessarily. At least, not one I'd like to see as a balancing factor in a PC race.

The proficiency list is quite good, and really haphazard. It gives them a lot of strong Exotic weapons (the Elven weapons are potent), as well as powerful melee and ranged martial weapons, and weapons suitable for pretty much all types of builds. Why do they get these weapons?

Their ability scores are just screaming "Min-max me as a Wizard or Archivist!" WotC tends to avoid more than +2 to mental stats at LA +0 for a definite reason...

All in all, they're a little to powerful, especially when geared to a caster. I'm not sure how this all makes sense either...I'd need to see more racial explanation and flavor. Why do these abilities make sense for them?




...more skill points/level than Humans, the go-to race at being good at skills? Sorry, but there's no reason for that to make sense. The race is also decidedly uninteresting aside from that, while still slightly to good in some places due to the strange proficiency list and the crap-ton of immunities.
1. Crap! Forgot that!

2. i understand, but I wanted them to REALLY not be able to be rezed (due to having no soul)

3. I essentially wanted them to have proficiency with Thinblade, Courtblade, and the other one without outright saying it

4. Well, they are great intellects, if a bit akward in social settings.

5. As for the flavor, these are elves who were affected by a mysterious magic source that stripped them of their souls, "detached" them from the universe (mentally speaking), and turned them into essentially an entire race of Elven Ben Steins.


Half-Elf

1. Whoops! Meant for that to be as a human's

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

2. i understand, but I wanted them to REALLY not be able to be rezed (due to having no soul)

3. I essentially wanted them to have proficiency with Thinblade, Courtblade, and the other one without outright saying it

4. Well, they are great intellects, if a bit akward in social settings.

5. As for the flavor, these are elves who were affected by a mysterious magic source that stripped them of their souls, "detached" them from the universe (mentally speaking), and turned them into essentially an entire race of Elven Ben Steins.

So how about something like this?

Ivory Elves
Outsider [Native]
+2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Medium: As Medium creatures, ivory elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Ivory elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Superior Low-Light Vision: An ivory elf can see four times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+4 bonus to saving throws against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Unlike most Outsiders, ivory elves do not possess darkvision or weapon proficiencies outside of those listed here, and they must both eat and sleep.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, an ivory elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven

The proficiencies are probably a little over the top, to be honest.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

So how about something like this?

Ivory Elves
Outsider [Native]
+2 Intelligence, -2 Constitution
Medium: As Medium creatures, ivory elves have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
Ivory elf base land speed is 30 feet.
Superior Low-Light Vision: An ivory elf can see four times as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of poor illumination. She retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
+4 bonus to saving throws against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Unlike most Outsiders, ivory elves do not possess darkvision or weapon proficiencies outside of those listed here, and they must both eat and sleep.
Elven Blood: For all effects related to race, an ivory elf is considered an elf.
Automatic Languages: Common and Elven

The proficiencies are probably a little over the top, to be honest.

They don't have souls. Period. Thats why they got the Hollow feat from Ravenloft for free.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

They don't have souls. Period. Thats why they got the Hollow feat from Ravenloft for free.

I understood that, but you have to consider balance, which is what you asked about.

Outsiders don't have souls: they and their "soul" are the same entity. Things without souls are objects, or lack an Intelligence score and are mindless entities. If you want immunity to tons of things (what your version of "no soul" is), you have to balance it out.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

I understood that, but you have to consider balance, which is what you asked about.

Outsiders don't have souls: they and their "soul" are the same entity. Things without souls are objects, or lack an Intelligence score and are mindless entities. If you want immunity to tons of things (what your version of "no soul" is), you have to balance it out.

Fine. No Outsider. Just Hollow. That way, every1's happy.

Plus, the feat says you are an intelligent creature of your race, but born without a soul.

Besides, my DM okayed the version I posted (with edits, except the newest one.)

[Spiryt]

Perhaps just some bigger penalties would make up from control, drain, and other immunities - I said that they seem a bit strong in the 1st post, but not too much really.

Maybe -2 to dexterity because


Their minds allegedly aren't connected to their bodies, but act more like a puppeteer, controling the body

That would hurt they wizardry a bit, too.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Besides, my DM okayed the version I posted (with edits, except the newest one.)

Fair enough. That said, you did ask for thoughts. I'm just positing that the race is overpowered, and that the penalties you give it aren't doing anything to actually fix the matter, as it's a specialist race at the moment (perfect for any INT build, and avoided for most everything else).

If you wish to ignore that concern, that's your prerogative.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Perhaps just some bigger penalties would make up from control, drain, and other immunities - I said that they seem a bit strong in the 1st post, but not too much really.

Maybe -2 to dexterity because



That would hurt they wizardry a bit, too.

or a static -1 to Reflex Saves and Initiative. I don't feel penalizing their AC

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

or a static -1 to Reflex Saves and Initiative. I don't feel penalizing their AC

Alright. Little lesson here from a fairly experienced homebrewer. I'd recommend taking it to heart.

Stacking penalties to compensate for strength is not a valid method of balancing.

All it does is further min-max the thing: it becomes more and more useless to anyone not playing towards its strengths, and is still very potent in the areas it's strong in. That's not good balance: it's unnecessarily complicated, gimps you in some areas, and overpowers you in others. Steer clear of that whenever possible.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Alright. Little lesson here from a fairly experienced homebrewer. I'd recommend taking it to heart.

Stacking penalties to compensate for strength is not a valid method of balancing.

All it does is further min-max the thing: it becomes more and more useless to anyone not playing towards its strengths, and is still very potent in the areas it's strong in. That's not good balance: it's unnecessarily complicated, gimps you in some areas, and overpowers you in others. Steer clear of that whenever possible.

well, what can i add to Hollow to make it balanced?

[ErrantX]

well, what can i add to Hollow to make it balanced?

A level adjustment.

Honestly, Djinn has been bending over backwards trying to balance this down to a LA+0, and from what you're wanting, it's looking like a LA +1 or +2, depending on immunities and stat buffs. Sorry.

-X

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

A level adjustment.

Honestly, Djinn has been bending over backwards trying to balance this down to a LA+0, and from what you're wanting, it's looking like a LA +1 or +2, depending on immunities and stat buffs. Sorry.

-X

How about even wish and Miracle don't work?

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

well, what can i add to Hollow to make it balanced?

Alright. Hollow, as written, is to powerful. It's effectively Mindblank against everything but mind-reading spells. I'd change it to the following:

Immunity to Energy Drain, and Fear effects.
+2 bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Can't be raised or resurrected by anything less than miracle or wish.

You keep two of the lesser immunities, and gain resistance against the things that you shouldn't fall easily to. Since you still have sentience and thoughts, you CAN be controlled...it's just much harder to do so.

Also, that +4 Intelligence needs to go down to +2, if you want a +0 LA, as do the large number of really strong weapon proficiencies...which don't even make much sense.

[ErrantX]

Good compromise Djinn, I second his suggestion.

-X

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

Alright. Hollow, as written, is to powerful. It's effectively Mindblank against everything but mind-reading spells. I'd change it to the following:

Immunity to Energy Drain, and Fear effects.
+2 bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells and abilities.
Can't be raised or resurrected by anything less than miracle or wish.

You keep two of the lesser immunities, and gain resistance against the things that you shouldn't fall easily to. Since you still have sentience and thoughts, you CAN be controlled...it's just much harder to do so.

Also, that +4 Intelligence needs to go down to +2, if you want a +0 LA, as do the large number of really strong weapon proficiencies...which don't even make much sense.

Hold on... I'll jsut give them Hollow from Ravenloft as a Bonus feat and scrap the proficiencies

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Hold on... I'll jsut give them Hollow from Ravenloft as a Bonus feat and scrap the proficiencies

...what I've been trying to say is that that ability is overpowered. One feat should not grant immunity to mind-affecting abilities until anything but mid-Epic level. Granting an overpowered feat is not an appropriate balancing factor, even if it exists in the game already. The simple fact is that that immunity negates a staggeringly huge number of abilities and powers, and is just to good to hand out to low-level (or even high level) characters.

If your DM allows it, fine. Have at it. It's not good homebrewing practice though, and, since you asked for opinions, I have to vote against it.

[~LuckyBoneDice~]

...what I've been trying to say is that that ability is overpowered. One feat should not grant immunity to mind-affecting abilities until anything but mid-Epic level. Granting an overpowered feat is not an appropriate balancing factor, even if it exists in the game already. The simple fact is that that immunity negates a staggeringly huge number of abilities and powers, and is just to good to hand out to low-level (or even high level) characters.

If your DM allows it, fine. Have at it. It's not good homebrewing practice though, and, since you asked for opinions, I have to vote against it.

The feat says you 1. Cannot be Good and 2. MUST TAKE AT LV1

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

The feat says you 1. Cannot be Good and 2. MUST TAKE AT LV1

Yes. A feat from a TSR published, 1995 book. A feat that is, by current game standards, poorly written and poorly balanced. Look at the other level 1 feats: is there ANY reason to take them over this one? No. Nothing else offers anything as potent. I can take, for two prerequisites, a feat that allows me a new save each round to throw off a negative level. This has next to no prerequisites, offers complete immunity to Energy Drain, and other benefits as well. Overpowered.

Some feats just shouldn't exist. It's a well known fact that WotC, TSR, and so forth don't balance everything nicely--compare the Wizard to the Fighter, for example.

An official source does not automatically mean balance, nor does it mean good design practices.

That said, I'm done here. If you don't want help balancing something, I'm not going to continue to try.

Best of luck.