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Il_Vec
2010-04-22, 03:05 PM
So, yesterday yet another of my characters died (They always do that.) The DM was not really trying to kill him, but still, we play fair, and dead is dead, so I am bound to make a new one.

At first it came to my mind that I wanted to make a Spiked-Chain user.
It happens that on the campaign, non-cleric magic is seen as illegal heresy, so, you see, I intend to make a "witch-hunter". This does not mean that he will only face casters, he should be able to stand his ground against all kinds of encounters (Casters are not common, but the ones that we do fight are powerful ones.).

We are using 3.5 core, MM1-5, All Completes except champion and psionic, frostburn, sandstorm, libris mortis, races of stone, destiny, dragon and wild. There are no psionics, and magic gear is limited. 27 points for character creation. Can't use races with LA greater than 1 or RHD. Kobolds and Goblins do not exist.

Do you have some ideas/suggestions?

Boci
2010-04-22, 03:08 PM
Paladin 2 (You will need the alternate aligment versions) / Hexblade 3 / Monk 2 / Ranger 1 with FE (arcanist) will give you good saves, mettle and evasion, and extra damage against casters. You can laso take favoured power attack.

Pluto
2010-04-22, 03:10 PM
Travel Domain Cleric.

Otherwise, negating caster defenses will be nigh impossible.

edit:
(Abjurant Champion is probably the next best thing, but it feels too much like a 90's comic book in this case for my taste.)

Il_Vec
2010-04-22, 03:10 PM
I just saw I forgot to inform that the character level is 10. Sorry.

Boci
2010-04-22, 03:13 PM
Travel Domain Cleric.

Otherwise, negating caster defenses will be nigh impossible.

True, but there would be other party members as well. Really it depends what OP means by melee. Cleric might be okay for him, or he might prefer a non-caster.


I just saw I forgot to inform that the character level is 10. Sorry.

I think there's a mage slaying PrC in Complete Arcane thats decent, but it has casting so the magebane line will interfere with it.

ErrantX
2010-04-22, 03:14 PM
Question:

Can you use magic of any variety? That will help determine what can be built for you.

-X

GenPol
2010-04-22, 03:15 PM
There is a prestige class in Complete Warrior called Occult Slayer, but I've heard thathttp://101tees.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/trap.jpg

MountainKing
2010-04-22, 03:16 PM
You could always try for a Monk/Mage Slayer; I've seen that put to ludicrously high effectiveness. If you're really all that concerned about the whole "Waaaa monks suck!" thing (not opening that can of worms, but it is a variable), you can just slap Vow of Poverty on it and pretty much call it a day.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 03:19 PM
to play up Boci's build which i think is the best.

You may want to take the mage slayer line.
As well as

Powerattack,
favored enemy power attack
Nemisis if you can

Grab hexbands.

Grab a two hander (I prefer falctions)
Grab some sort of 1handed ranged weapon.

Combat should go something like: (sorry about the programmer lingo)

Do:
If able to charge caster do so Powerattacking if possible and using hexbands.. the object is to drop them in 1 round.

If your not able to move your movement(single move action) then ready an action to use your ranged weapon if they start casting(mainly to try to disrupt them).
Repeat untill your in melee

you hexblade levels should allow you to drop a rank or two into spell craft incase your gm is picky about being able to detect spell casting.

Pluto
2010-04-22, 03:20 PM
True, but there would be other party members as well.

If you're waiting for another party member to neuter your enemies before you engage, you may as well use a Warrior.

Il_Vec
2010-04-22, 03:25 PM
Travel Domain Cleric is a good idea, but because of the restriction on non-clerics, we already have 3 clerics on the party (and 1 rogue).


Question:

Can you use magic of any variety? That will help determine what can be built for you.

-X

Cleric and paladin have no concern using magic, but they have RP implications (all clerics are belong to the churches and must act so), and for some reason Bards don't seem to attract much attention with their spells... I can theorethically use any kind of spellcasting class, but if any law-abiding citizen sees actual magic-using, the inquisition gets called. Not really auto-death, but a pain. And maybe a witch-hunter wouldn't like to be breaking the law against "witches", but that is not set in stone.

ErrantX
2010-04-22, 03:26 PM
I like the idea of: Ranger 1 / Warblade 5 / Suel Arcanamach 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 6 / Warblade +2

Get some maneuvers, Suel arcanamach casting that will get you into Swiftblade which is a great mage-killer class, BAB and CL of 19, and full Suel Arcanamach casting. Don't take Mage Slayer, not worth it unless you take Practiced Spellcaster for Suel Arcanamach on top of it. Ranger is there for skills and for Favored Enemy (arcanists) and Favored Power Attack. Iron Heart and Diamond Mind are your friends as far as maneuvers go. If you don't use Tome of Battle, simply replace your warblade levels with Duskblade levels, snag Knowledge Devotion. Maybe dip a level of cleric to get Travel Devotion in there somewhere.

2 cents,
-X

P.S. In my homebrew sig, I have made a Tome of Battle remake of the Suel Arcanamach, if you're interested and can use homebrew.

Boci
2010-04-22, 03:28 PM
If you're waiting for another party member to neuter your enemies before you engage, you may as well use a Warrior.

No. In your own words, melee cannot counter all of a casters defenses. So your saying the OP should just give up necauses his character concept is a lost cause? Or we can give him a decent caster killer that is made more effective by buffs.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 03:32 PM
If you're really all that concerned about the whole "Waaaa monks suck!" thing (not opening that can of worms, but it is a variable), you can just slap Vow of Poverty on it and pretty much call it a day.

Wait, you're trying to avoid one can of worms by opening a much bigger one? VoP monk is much more controversial than regular monk.

Pluto
2010-04-22, 03:36 PM
...for some reason Bards don't seem to attract much attention with their spells...

Heh.

Bard 5/Fighter 1/Spellsword 4 could be a fun build and, with Able Learner, could hit Sublime Chord at level 11.

Good saves; Channel things like Dispel or Blindness, use some basic caster defenses like Mirror Image and Blink.

...An idea, anyway.

Yukitsu
2010-04-22, 03:37 PM
No. In your own words, melee cannot counter all of a casters defenses. So your saying the OP should just give up necauses his character concept is a lost cause? Or we can give him a decent caster killer that is made more effective by buffs.

Most buffs make you a better melee killer. Very few buffs actually focus on killing casters.

That aside, most DM's aren't big enough of jerks to optimize their wizards. Just use a lockdown build with stand still, a spiked chain, a few crusader levels and the mage slayer feats and you should be fine.

Eldariel
2010-04-22, 04:18 PM
Psionics would be great. Pity. Also, arcane magic is great for mage hunting. Again, pity. Then, divine magic rocks for mage hunting. Pity. But yeah, Crusader Mage Slayer would be decent, but annoyingly you don't have ToB either. Runescarred Berserker isn't available either.

I guess that leaves you with...umm, Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger/Horizon Walker with Mage Slayer-feats? That at least gives you the teleport once per 4 rounds (and Quickened in some levels), is quite completely martial and yeah. Just pick Spiked Chain, Improved Trip and all that. Hell, see Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415), add Mage Slayer + Pierce Magical Concealment and call it a day. To taste, you could add Shock Trooper + Leap Attack for some damage output too. Frankly, attacking a poorly built caster on the surprise round with charge to the face is one of the more reliable ways of killing them.


And yeah, Occult Slayer isn't frankly horrible. It isn't very good at what it does, but at least it has some related abilities making Scry'n'Dying you a bit harder and so on. Really tho, to kill casters, you need more than stacked defenses (which most people tend to suggest); no matter how good your defenses, you cannot hurt the caster unless you put an effort to it and the caster can eventually overcome your defenses through some means due to the expansive list of options. So...yeah.

Gametime
2010-04-22, 04:28 PM
Most buffs make you a better melee killer. Very few buffs actually focus on killing casters.

That aside, most DM's aren't big enough of jerks to optimize their wizards. Just use a lockdown build with stand still, a spiked chain, a few crusader levels and the mage slayer feats and you should be fine.

Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to have ToB. 3 levels of Knight makes a decent substitute for Thicket of Blades, though. They can't take a 5-foot-step if they start their turn adjacent to you, so combined with Mage Slayer you should be good to go.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 04:29 PM
I like the idea of: Ranger 1 / Warblade 5 / Suel Arcanamach 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Swiftblade 6 / Warblade +2

Get some maneuvers, Suel arcanamach casting that will get you into Swiftblade which is a great mage-killer class, BAB and CL of 19, and full Suel Arcanamach casting. Don't take Mage Slayer, not worth it unless you take Practiced Spellcaster for Suel Arcanamach on top of it. Ranger is there for skills and for Favored Enemy (arcanists) and Favored Power Attack. Iron Heart and Diamond Mind are your friends as far as maneuvers go. If you don't use Tome of Battle, simply replace your warblade levels with Duskblade levels, snag Knowledge Devotion. Maybe dip a level of cleric to get Travel Devotion in there somewhere.

2 cents,
-X

P.S. In my homebrew sig, I have made a Tome of Battle remake of the Suel Arcanamach, if you're interested and can use homebrew.

By my reading (which might be wrong) if you do take the capstone of abjurant champion, the mage-slayer CL-loss, is off set, since IIRC you can apply penalties and benefits in any way you want. IE you apply the cl loss at the start, and then Abj Champ martial arcanist makes you CL equal to your BAB, therfore bypassing the CL loss

Harperfan7
2010-04-22, 04:48 PM
If you do take FE arcanists, make sure your weapon is magebane and all those nice little bane-like enhancements in the magic item compendium.

jiriku
2010-04-22, 05:01 PM
Are Spell Compendium and PH2 off-limits? If they are, that's actually really good news, because that's going to greatly restrict the options availabel to your targets.

Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment are your friends, because you'll never get anywhere if can't get around mirror image + displacement. As others have said, your best bet is to be able to deal overwhelming damage with a single attack. I'd go greatsword rather than falchion: unless you deal significantly more than 40 damage per hit, the greatsword does equal or better damage overall and deals damage more consistently. Accuracy with your attacks is still important to enable you to power attack heavily, but your typical NPC wizard has a pretty blah AC.

You need a method of flight, preferably FAST, preferably one with a really long duration so you can keep it active all the time and not have to blow a standard action activating it at the beginning of combat. Dragonborn might be a good idea. You need to be able to see invisible creatures. Strong saves are helpful, but not essentially. Wizard-killing isn't about being able to endure the wizard's attacks. It's about the wizard not being able to endure your attacks.

Tripping and grappling are very helpful for locking down a ground-based wizard, provided an ally drops dimensional anchor on him beforehand, but wizards have so many options for defeating those tactics that you shouldn't devote signficant resources to those tactics unless you want to be doing them all the time with non-spellcasting opponents.

A spellstoring throwing weapon with blindness cast into it can be useful against a flying wizard, as can a net of dimensional anchor (custom item).

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 05:41 PM
Are Spell Compendium and PH2 off-limits? If they are, that's actually really good news, because that's going to greatly restrict the options availabel to your targets.

Mage Slayer and Pierce Magical Concealment are your friends, because you'll never get anywhere if can't get around mirror image + displacement. As others have said, your best bet is to be able to deal overwhelming damage with a single attack. I'd go greatsword rather than falchion: unless you deal significantly more than 40 damage per hit, the greatsword does equal or better damage overall and deals damage more consistently. Accuracy with your attacks is still important to enable you to power attack heavily, but your typical NPC wizard has a pretty blah AC.

You need a method of flight, preferably FAST, preferably one with a really long duration so you can keep it active all the time and not have to blow a standard action activating it at the beginning of combat. Dragonborn might be a good idea. You need to be able to see invisible creatures. Strong saves are helpful, but not essentially. Wizard-killing isn't about being able to endure the wizard's attacks. It's about the wizard not being able to endure your attacks.

Tripping and grappling are very helpful for locking down a ground-based wizard, provided an ally drops dimensional anchor on him beforehand, but wizards have so many options for defeating those tactics that you shouldn't devote signficant resources to those tactics unless you want to be doing them all the time with non-spellcasting opponents.

A spellstoring throwing weapon with blindness cast into it can be useful against a flying wizard, as can a net of dimensional anchor (custom item).

I always a big fan of keened falcions... plus greatswords are over done.
plus the difference is like 5 dmg to 7 2 points difference and faltions have a greater threat range... but i can understand...

I agree with the tripping.

Togo
2010-04-22, 05:43 PM
Monks make good wizard killers. They're not great in melee, but then again, against wizards, they don't need to be.

My old 'bodybuilder' character made a decent mage killer.

barbarian1/marshal3/fighter2/occultslayer2/divine champion2 (competition domain)

Feats:
wep focus
improved init
Improved trip
Improved bull rush
Tactical soldier (complete warrior)

Occult slayer is only there for filler, and to get the deflect magic and decent saves, so feel free to fill in with something else.

A decent charisma and marshal gives you the chance to win initiative most of the time (motivate dex+improved initiative). Then use your various physical skills and barbarian fast movement to jump, climb, or tumble to your target past any flat footed goons, and then either grapple or trip attack (motivate strength) the wizard, and stand over him. Preferably before he gets to act. The competition domain gets you +1 on trip checks, and the 'zeal' spell. NPC wizards generally go down quick without goons to stand behind, and as long as he's running away from you, he's not doing anything else.

Other possibilities include fast grapple characters, using a fighter or monk build, or a bloodhound/exotic weapon master with a wounding spiked chain. Few wizards, no matter how many temporary hp they use, can withstand multiple str and con damage, and the ability to use mancles in combat is a flavourful touch.

Eldariel
2010-04-22, 05:48 PM
Monks make good wizard killers. They're not great in melee, but then again, against wizards, they don't need to be.

Frankly, no they do not. They have nothing that enables them to reach Wizards better than any other melee class, they lack the ability to kill Wizards in one hit if they somehow do manage to hit, they lack the means to efficiently threaten large areas and making casting difficult, they lack meaningful ranged weapon capabilities, all they've got is a bunch of passive defenses but those don't threaten a caster in any way.

Basically, they have nothing that a caster fears meaning he'll just take his time flying away, dispelling your Flight and firing at you with True Striked Orbs/Enervations/whatever or overpowering your save or just Cloudkilling/Maw of Chaosing/Combusting/whatever you if you've sufficiently pumped your Touch AC & saves that it's not worth the effort to hit through them (that is, high enough that True Strike isn't sufficient). You know the saying "Best defense is a good offense?" When your opponent has a dozen rocket launchers each twice the size of the one you've got, you better play to that and make that one attack you get count. Monks aren't excellent at making that one attack count.

Emmerask
2010-04-22, 05:50 PM
mage slayer + pierce magical concealment would be my most important feat picks.

Keld Denar
2010-04-22, 06:13 PM
I'm actually kind of fond of Occult Slayer, although I do wish it had a strong Fort save as well. The 2/day spell reflect ability, which any sane person can see should have been an immediate action instead of a free action (given that you can't take free actions when its not your turn, and immediate actions didn't EXIST when Comp Warrior was written) is a 2/day get out of any targeted spell. The bonus to all saves is untyped, meaning that it stacks with everything, including a friendly Superior Resistance or a +5 cloak. The Mind Blank is also golden, given that it can't be dispelled or disabled in any way short of tricking the OS to lower it.

Its a great concept for a 5 level class, it just needed a bit better execution. The Non-Detection effect is just plain worthless. It'll barely keep apprentices from scrying on you, much less any wizard who is high enough level to actually CAST Scry. If they made it equal to say...your character level, it would give you a 50/50 shot, so I'm thinking it should have a CL of char level +5. That would make you nearly undetectable to lesser mages, and even higher level mages would have a tough time finding you unless they had a tricked out caster level. And again, a mention to the Spell Reflect. Poor execution, but if you just make it an Immediate Action, it makes perfect sense and has and action cost associated with its strength. Lastly, Auravision should specify HOW much of Detect Magic you get, or just wave it away and give you permanent Arcane Sight. I played an OS in Living Greyhawk, and I used to make a pinging sound every time my character would "cast" Detect Magic in a circle around himself like radar, usually EVERY round, which annoyed some of the LG Judges I had. If they just said "you have Arcane Sight" it would have made life SO much easier.

Il_Vec
2010-04-23, 12:32 AM
I liked the first 2 levels of occslayer, but did not love it. Liked also the paladin + hexblade but am concerned about MAD. Horizon walker build really seems a very solid choice, but actually do not see the need for Brb dip. DM only allowed Dragon Shaman and (most of) the feats on PHB2, just remembered that.

Mageslayer, Pierce Magical concealment & leap attack are my personal favorites, they will be in the final build somewhere.

I'd like to thank you for the help so far, any more ideas?

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:14 AM
Kill a caster? Be a caster.

ie, wizard.

Who cares if they send mage-hunters after you? Just be an initiate of the sevenfold veils and block their socks off.

Alternatively, druid/planar shepherd.

Op-fu, baby.

Frankly, it's stupid for the various governments to demonize the absolutely most powerful people in the entire world. They'll just start at the top, dominate their way to power, then enact major social reforms (via enslavement, if nothing else) to make things more mage-friendly (at least to them).

Any country that isn't labeled a mageocracy or a theocracy just doesn't know who really runs the show.

But really, if you build yourself correctly there's not a darned thing they can do to you.

Doc Roc
2010-04-23, 01:26 AM
I can fix all of this. Shoot me an IM and I'll customize a build for you. Takes too much time otherwise.

Lawless III
2010-04-23, 01:31 AM
Frankly, it's stupid for the various governments to demonize the absolutely most powerful people in the entire world. They'll just start at the top, dominate their way to power, then enact major social reforms (via enslavement, if nothing else) to make things more mage-friendly (at least to them).

Any country that isn't labeled a mageocracy or a theocracy just doesn't know who really runs the show.

But really, if you build yourself correctly there's not a darned thing they can do to you.

Ha wow. I gotta say, I dig your style.:smallbiggrin:

herrhauptmann
2010-04-23, 01:32 AM
If you're going to do ranger for FE: Arcanist, check out the alternate weapon styles.
They're from a dragon magazine, and can be found on crystal keep. Power attacking, grappling, mounted combat, and thrown weapons I believe.

If summoning is a common tactic, try to get a greensteel weapon. (Greenstar adept needs the material), it's like adamant, but does extra damage against extraplanars so long as it is on the material plane.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 01:34 AM
It is most unfortunate that you lack access to Tome of Battle--specifically, to Thicket of Blades. Far and away your best chance to get more than one rocket launched in this game of rocket tag.

Absent that, we're pretty much looking at Saph's Horizon Tripper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80415) with more mage-slaying in mind.

jseah
2010-04-23, 01:39 AM
But really, if you build yourself correctly there's not a darned thing they can do to you.
But if he's going for the whole "entire society hates arcane magic", having the entire economic might of the Empire against you is a pretty raw deal.

Especially since at level 10-15, enough enemy wealth can still kill you.

Being discreet is still necessary, and the challenge of not being found out is more than justified for the power you gain. XD

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:40 AM
Ha wow. I gotta say, I dig your style.:smallbiggrin:When a character class is orders of magnitude more powerful than 90% of the population, even those who are 7 or 8 levels higher than them, appropriate WBL or not, you don't want to make them angry. You won't like them when they're angry.

jseah
2010-04-23, 01:44 AM
When a character class is orders of magnitude more powerful than 90% of the population, even those who are 7 or 8 levels higher than them, appropriate WBL or not, you don't want to make them angry. You won't like them when they're angry.
But you see, the "magic is banned" environment can't be sustained unless most of those angry mages are dead. Thus I can assume they are dead.

Perhaps there was a war some time ago? Maybe the non-mages had a Parson to be chief warlord for them. =P

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:47 AM
But if he's going for the whole "entire society hates arcane magic", having the entire economic might of the Empire against you is a pretty raw deal.

Especially since at level 10-15, enough enemy wealth can still kill you.

Being discreet is still necessary, and the challenge of not being found out is more than justified for the power you gain. XDEnemy wealth? Wizards are the ones in most settings that do the item creation, because arcane spells fuel most of the items out there.

What kind of magic items (and let's face it, those are the only ones that count) are they going to levy against you if they're all in your possession, because you're the only one that makes the good ones in any real quantity?

If anything, this makes you even more powerful.

Heck, use spells to ramp up your Diplomacy checks and get the Popes figureheads of the most powerful churches around to be your fanatical followers, and then you have them where you want them.*

It's doable.

*Bent over a barrel and crying for mercy more.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:50 AM
But you see, the "magic is banned" environment can't be sustained unless most of those angry mages are dead. Thus I can assume they are dead.Circular argument.

I'm willing to bet that there are mages behind the scenes, using their influence on the social hierarchies to prevent usurpers to their established regime from popping up.

It's the only thing that makes sense, short of, say, some kind of arcane curse and/or disease that killed all the casters off.

Doc Roc
2010-04-23, 01:50 AM
But you see, the "magic is banned" environment can't be sustained unless most of those angry mages are dead. Thus I can assume they are dead.

Perhaps there was a war some time ago? Maybe the non-mages had a Parson to be chief warlord for them. =P

Or Elemental Weirds happened.

JaronK
2010-04-23, 01:54 AM
Circular argument.

I'm willing to bet that there are mages behind the scenes, using their influence on the social hierarchies to prevent usurpers to their established regime from popping up.

It's the only thing that makes sense, short of, say, some kind of arcane curse and/or disease that killed all the casters off.

Archivists could have killed off the Wizards. That's possible.

JaronK

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:55 AM
Archivists could have killed off the Wizards. That's possible.

JaronKOh. Right. That.

But they'd be next, since they emulate arcane spellcasting.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 02:08 AM
But you see, the "magic is banned" environment can't be sustained unless most of those angry mages are dead. Thus I can assume they are dead.

Perhaps there was a war some time ago? Maybe the non-mages had a Parson to be chief warlord for them. =P

More likely, the casters fought each other. It was Terry Pratchett's Sourcery all over again, except with deadlier casting and less forgiving populations eliminating the last few exhausted winners (or maybe the clerics were the winners). This led to the societal taboo on magic. The reason for the occasional wild cards that need hunting down? The scattered spellbooks of the losers from the mage wars. The rare raised-by-wolves child who got in touch with nature magic in an hour of desperate need (now there's a potential ethical dilemma for the group!). And so on.

Question: with magic largely gone, what is the status of magic items? Who, if anyone, makes Bracers of Armor +1? And how will this affect a caster-killer build, if at all?

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-23, 02:09 AM
Or any spellcaster powerful enough to cast planeshift eventually ends up hanging out in one of the good afterlives for the rest of their lives.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 02:12 AM
Or any spellcaster powerful enough to cast planeshift eventually ends up hanging out in one of the good afterlives for the rest of their lives.

Good luck slipping that one past the gods, who are going to be pretty mad at you for cheating your way into Heaven. And with all those worshiping clerics likely running a society of believers, those gods will be pretty powerful.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-23, 02:13 AM
Nah, the gods of magic let them in. It's a pretty sweet deal, all told.

Of course, the whole purpose of the setup is collecting a horde of magically powerful souls in order to attempt to stave off Ragnarok, so it's more of a future investment. Anyone who doesn't have magical talent gets kicked back into the cycle of reincarnation for another spin.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-23, 04:00 AM
Poisoned Harpoons, sneak attack and a high init. Get in range and pin the caster down. Ready an action to yank him off his feet if he tries to cast anything. you can make the barb of the harpoon out of the ice material fron Frostburn so he takes damage every round.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-23, 04:35 AM
If all arcane casters have been burned at a stake from the start, it is possible no wizard / sorcerer / whatever has ever made it to the levels of godly power. A level 1 wizard has only so many castings of magic missile before angry mob runs him down...

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 04:44 AM
If all arcane casters have been burned at a stake from the start, it is possible no wizard / sorcerer / whatever has ever made it to the levels of godly power. A level 1 wizard has only so many castings of magic missile before angry mob runs him down...

Which would obviate the need for a level-10 character to specialize in mage-slaying, as any cleric could handle the problem instead. Such an explanation would also make it far more difficult for the fighter to explain his knowledge of caster tactics and counters at higher levels.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 04:53 AM
Which would obviate the need for a level-10 character to specialize in mage-slaying, as any cleric could handle the problem instead. Such an explanation would also make it far more difficult for the fighter to explain his knowledge of caster tactics and counters at higher levels.

If the canny wizard started with only "Protection From Evil" and the like, until he hit 3rd level, where he left to go to the wilderness and kill goblins until level 11... lol.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 05:23 AM
If the canny wizard started with only "Protection From Evil" and the like, until he hit 3rd level, where he left to go to the wilderness and kill goblins until level 11... lol.

Protection from Law, more like, considering the wizard's legal status. But hey, I prefer my backstory, Frozen_Feet probably prefers his backstory. It's easier to imagine ways in which your ideas are good than would be for someone else's ideas.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 05:58 AM
Going back to actual builds, Witch Slayer (Tome of Magic) is a decent PrC choice. Full BAB, good Fort + Will, Mettle, and you can turn off their powers with a localized AMF at-will, that only affects them.

Il_Vec
2010-04-23, 09:04 AM
Witch Slayer looks real good too. Bad thing is DM hasn't approved ToM, because he never read it, but maybe he will allow just that PrC.

And for the ones interested on the campaign background details, well I don't know all of it, only things pieced together by my charactes in-game.
The feeling is kinda real-earth medieval, with church and court always related in some way.
As far as I can tell, a good deal of years ago there was war between the Gods just about the same time the king of Asturia (the kingdom we spend most time on, and the largest one.), backed by the churches of Moradin, Heironeus and St. Cutberth, declared all magic-users not members of "good" churches, as heretics.
One wizard, name Grimod, lead an opposition to that crusade, but was ultimately killed and his followers scattered.
Many Gods were killed or banished, and Heironeous and Pelor are the mainly accepted religions (And Moradin only on dwarven territory).
20 years of inquisition later, wizards, sorcerers, druids and other spellcasters are very rare, but of course they exist, just never openly revealing their spells.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 10:18 AM
Play a changeling domain wizard with the healing domain and that ACF that lets you store your spellbook in your head, as well as the feat that doubles your spells granted at each level, and masquerade as a cloistered cleric; there are feats and skill tricks to hide your casting as other kinds of spells. Or PrC into rainbow servant.

For a nice twist, play exalted.

Exalted necromancer, that is.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 02:28 PM
Play a changeling domain wizard with the healing domain and that ACF that lets you store your spellbook in your head, as well as the feat that doubles your spells granted at each level, and masquerade as a cloistered cleric; there are feats and skill tricks to hide your casting as other kinds of spells. Or PrC into rainbow servant.

For a nice twist, play exalted.

Exalted necromancer, that is.

I suspect the DM might object to Collegiate wizard in a realm with no wizard college, for obvious reasons.

But yeah, the first thing that comes to mind in such a setting is to play one of those casters hiding their spells. Still Spell, Silent Spell, Invisible Spell, etc.

ErrantX
2010-04-23, 02:45 PM
But yeah, the first thing that comes to mind in such a setting is to play one of those casters hiding their spells. Still Spell, Silent Spell, Invisible Spell, etc.

I don't know, I think it would be more fun to play the mage that Tippy was always talking about that started it all... :smallamused:

-X

Starbuck_II
2010-04-23, 02:51 PM
Witch Slayer looks real good too. Bad thing is DM hasn't approved ToM, because he never read it, but maybe he will allow just that PrC.


Santified Mind also isn't bad. Lords of Madness pg 199.
If you consider Psi-likes the same as a spell-likes than it can disrupt monsters. It loses access to them for 1d4 rds (but limited to 2/day).

The 1st lv is good in general: mind affecting things can be ignored by choosing to be slowed instead (instead of charmed, dominated, Held, etc).

But you can only hold it for class lv + Cha bonus rd (at end you are back to actual status effect). Kind of an extra: get of free card since magic users so dangerous.

jiriku
2010-04-23, 03:10 PM
I liked the first 2 levels of occslayer, but did not love it. Liked also the paladin + hexblade but am concerned about MAD. Horizon walker build really seems a very solid choice, but actually do not see the need for Brb dip. DM only allowed Dragon Shaman and (most of) the feats on PHB2, just remembered that.

Mageslayer, Pierce Magical concealment & leap attack are my personal favorites, they will be in the final build somewhere.

I'd like to thank you for the help so far, any more ideas?

If you seek to improve damage vs. arcanists and intend to take both ranger and leap attack (not a bad plan, since the archery is a good backup if you can't charge), favored power attack complements leap attack well to give you even more charge damage.

Il_Vec
2010-04-23, 05:51 PM
Power Attack, Favored Power Attack, Leap Attack, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Reflexes.
Am I forgetting anything? I know improved bull rush + shock troop would help a lot, but to do that i'd have to get too many Fighter levels...

Volthawk
2010-04-23, 05:57 PM
I suspect the DM might object to Collegiate wizard in a realm with no wizard college, for obvious reasons.

But yeah, the first thing that comes to mind in such a setting is to play one of those casters hiding their spells. Still Spell, Silent Spell, Invisible Spell, etc.

Beguiler? That's pretty much it's thing.

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-24, 01:13 AM
Keep the familiar, and use spells that are also on the adept list when you're in public.

Fawsto
2010-04-24, 02:10 AM
Me again,

Just to clarify what else the Gaming Group has put together (Il Vec and I are in the same adventure):

Long, long time ago the Gods begun an full-fledged war for the dominion of the portfolios. Since then the rulers of the portfolios are gods from very different pantheons, while other gods with the same portfolio are secondary. For example: While Pelor is the Major God of Sun Healing and et cetera, there is Rah (egypt) and Apollo; there is also Surtur the Current God of War, that has beaten not only Thor, but Ares, many other Nordic Deities and other D&D classics, that are now secondary Gods of War.

It is important to notice that the current Death God(ess) is Hel. This is important because the main villain is a Vile True Necromancer that recently completed 1 year of existence (he should have died at level 3).

There was another war that started the "we hate witches" stuff. It happened thousands of years after the Warring Gods (I think). It was between Asturia (the medieval european style county) and the Rome/Greek themed Empire. During that war the Greek side was doing better due to better use of Divine Spellcasters, until a Powerful Mage (Grimod) rose in the Asturian army and started to cast (Vile) Spells in favour to the Asturian Kingdom.

Due to that the already bloody war turned into a massacre without precedents. This lead the Greek/Roman empire into a cease-fire. The thing was that Grimod had become too powerful and his spells were too horrible for the eyes of the Pelor patronized kingdom. A group was sent to kill him and they succeded (the group was his previews adventuring party). After that all "Witches" were hunt down (specially Grimod's students) as unholy unatural monsters. There are, however, legalized spellcasters there.

Basically this is the world's layout right now. With a madenned true necromancer trying to open a gate into Hel's domain (gods know why), a big trouble in the Asturian Empire and all sort of apocalyptic stuff happening. In short? We are Loosing, pretty fast.

Also, for the record, all treasure is absolutely random and there are other regions/countries/empires that accept/are indifferent to/are ruled by Spellcasters.

Sorry for the wall of text.

And that's why a Witch Hunter is a very interesting concept right now. Il Vec knows that this character has Fawsto's seal of approvement. Also, a few hours ago, our DM accepted his build using a homebrewed variant of the Witch Hunter PrC that changes all "We Hate Binders" into "We Hate Arcane Casters". Pretty good.

boomwolf
2010-04-24, 04:58 AM
There is a prestige class in Complete Warrior called Occult Slayer, but I've heard thathttp://101tees.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/trap.jpg

True, but is it worse then a simple fighter?

Togo
2010-04-24, 07:17 AM
Which would obviate the need for a level-10 character to specialize in mage-slaying, as any cleric could handle the problem instead. Such an explanation would also make it far more difficult for the fighter to explain his knowledge of caster tactics and counters at higher levels.

You get it from exactly the same place the wizard gets spells from. Ancient texts that pre-date the fall of the wizards.

Math_Mage
2010-04-24, 11:35 AM
You get it from exactly the same place the wizard gets spells from. Ancient texts that pre-date the fall of the wizards.

In FF's system, wizards never got that powerful to begin with, so my question remains valid for his paradigm. I was the one with the 'all the powerful casters fought each other to death' suggestion, though that's hardly the only way for them to fall.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-24, 11:42 AM
Power Attack, Favored Power Attack, Leap Attack, Mage Slayer, Pierce Magical Concealment, Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Combat Reflexes.
Am I forgetting anything? I know improved bull rush + shock troop would help a lot, but to do that i'd have to get too many Fighter levels...

Yes.
You need blindfight for pierce magical concealment.
Pierce magical protection can get you through any magical defenses that are a result of a spell (doesn't help against bracers of armor, but it does if it's from a use activated wondrous item, scroll, potion, etc)

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 10:31 AM
I'll have to get only BF for now and leave Pierce Magical Concealment to level 12 ...

Critical
2010-04-25, 11:05 AM
Grab Mage Slayer feat, grab Spiked Chain and lots of reach increasing feats. Then get a nice initiative and charge, casters should be dead in most cases, unless they have a pimped tumble check or Abrupt Jaunt away from you.

Emmerask
2010-04-25, 11:09 AM
Grab Mage Slayer feat, grab Spiked Chain and lots of reach increasing feats. Then get a nice initiative and charge, casters should be dead in most cases, unless they have a pimped tumble check or Abrupt Jaunt away from you.

You also need pierce magical concealment so that you can charge even if they blink or use other concealment stuff. In addition you donīt want to charge the mirror image but the real one ^^

Pierce magical protection seems a bit weak except if contingency does count as spell completion mechanic? then it would be pretty awesome ^^
ie contingency away -> no you donīt, attack -> dispel lots of stuff with the hit *gg* misread the feat, seems pretty weak :smalltongue:

Arakune
2010-04-25, 11:26 AM
You can also go Psion or Psichic Warrior for wizard slaying.

Egoist/Slayer or Psichic Warrior/Slayer/Monk (tashalatora) can be quite mean.

Fawsto
2010-04-25, 11:53 AM
It would be awesome for Il Vec... But our DM is not using psions.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-25, 12:13 PM
Which would obviate the need for a level-10 character to specialize in mage-slaying, as any cleric could handle the problem instead. Such an explanation would also make it far more difficult for the fighter to explain his knowledge of caster tactics and counters at higher levels.
Obviously, every once in a while an outlier would escape early notice and grow exponentially in power, to the point where an elite squad is required to take them down. In this situation, there probably wouldn't be all that many mage-slayers, and the player character would likely be a pioneer of many advanced anti-wizard tactics.

Fawsto
2010-04-25, 03:33 PM
The DM uses Justicars extensively to surprise and arrest low level casters. Happened with my first cleric.

Besides that, there are legalized spellcasters in the refed Kingdom. Thus making it entirelly possible for anti-caster caster units. It is only much more common for non-casters to specialize into de-casting.

Edit: I can't wait to see this character giving us a hand at our current task: Killing a True Necromancer that is wreacking chaos at the desert kingdoms. We will have a much better chance of defeating him if we go 4 Vs 1.

And even better, it will be a good opportunity for my character to have even more reasons to specialize into witch hunting (i've got this idea since I started lstening to Grave Digger's Witch Hunter).

herrhauptmann
2010-04-25, 03:37 PM
I'll have to get only BF for now and leave Pierce Magical Concealment to level 12 ...

So aside from identifying a few feats you want, have you decided on a tentative build?

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 04:00 PM
Obviously, every once in a while an outlier would escape early notice and grow exponentially in power, to the point where an elite squad is required to take them down. In this situation, there probably wouldn't be all that many mage-slayers, and the player character would likely be a pioneer of many advanced anti-wizard tactics.

This is...just barely possible, but makes it difficult to maintain verisimilitude. Presumably you will not wait until the fighter is exposed to a spell to obtain a counter for it in most cases; this will raise IC questions. In terms of the game world, it requires that your outliers proceed in a nice and orderly progression, so that the non-casters are never overwhelmed before they can develop new countertactics. This is mathematically implausible, especially since outliers are likely to become extreme outliers (a caster that manages to become an outlier is exponentially harder to kill, thus making it much more likely that he'll become a greater outlier, and so on). The presence of the clerics mitigates this somewhat, but it's still a seriousl problem.

If we are to be pioneers, I'd rather take it all the way and have the campaign be centered around the discovery of magic. The fighter still doesn't have any excuse for knowing caster tactics, but at least the world is believable and provides a good framework for a 1-20 campaign, or anything in between.

Frozen_Feet
2010-04-25, 04:24 PM
This is...just barely possible, but makes it difficult to maintain verisimilitude. Presumably you will not wait until the fighter is exposed to a spell to obtain a counter for it in most cases; this will raise IC questions. In terms of the game world, it requires that your outliers proceed in a nice and orderly progression, so that the non-casters are never overwhelmed before they can develop new countertactics. This is mathematically implausible, especially since outliers are likely to become extreme outliers (a caster that manages to become an outlier is exponentially harder to kill, thus making it much more likely that he'll become a greater outlier, and so on). The presence of the clerics mitigates this somewhat, but it's still a seriousl problem.
Emphasis mine. I never made that assumption; When I said "pioneer", I meant it also in the sense of "bashing your head against a wall, so you learn not to do it next time". Obviously the goal is to "kill them while they're young", but plans will backfire every once in a while, and the wizard will get away.

Progression in D&D is very abstract - when you get a level in, say, occult slayer, it can represent someone teaching you anti-caster tactics, or it can represent you yourself coming up and putting down new tactics based on previous experience. The latter form is what would be the standard in my version of the setting.

Also, if starting at level 10 (etc.), obviously the character is already an elite member of the squad and has fought his fair share of rogue wizards before. That's how he got those EXP in the first place. He's one of the few people who've survived in the business long enough to know this stuff.

The basic idea is no more versimilitude breaking than the idea of warring mages. It just requires approaching the same theme from a different direction.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 05:55 PM
I am currently looking at Fighter 4/WolftotemBarb2wFavoredEnemyVariant/HorizonWalker4 or Fighter2/Ranger3/Hw5... But thats far from settled.

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 07:01 PM
Emphasis mine. I never made that assumption; When I said "pioneer", I meant it also in the sense of "bashing your head against a wall, so you learn not to do it next time". Obviously the goal is to "kill them while they're young", but plans will backfire every once in a while, and the wizard will get away.

Eh, point. I was speaking in societal terms--a caster-hating society where casters occasionally get away is unsustainable, because if a caster gets away once, it's very likely you'll never get him. I suppose there would be some place in the fall of such a society for a campaign involving this Fighter.


I am currently looking at Fighter 4/WolftotemBarb2wFavoredEnemyVariant/HorizonWalker4 or Fighter2/Ranger3/Hw5... But thats far from settled.

Why do just one of them? Mix some Ranger levels in place of the extra Fighter levels in the first build (no need to go past Fighter 2 for sure)...

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 07:42 PM
Human WolfBarbarianVariant 1 = Favored Enemy (Arcanist), Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Power Attack, Use Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)
WBV2 = Improved Trip, Combat Sytle
Fighter 1 = Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer
Fighter 2 = Favored Power Attack
Fighter 3 = ":smallfrown:"
Fighter 4 = Endurance, Leap Attack
HW 1
HW 2
HW 3 = Pierce Magical Protection or Blind-Fight.

Ranger 1 = FE, Track, Wild Empathy, Power Attack, UEA(SC)
Ranger 2 = Combat Style
Ranger 3 = Endurance, Mage Slayer
Fighter 1 = Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2 = Favored Power Attack
HW 1 = Leap Attack
HW 2
Hw 3
Hw 4 = PMP or BF

If the main class feature I want to use of HW is the 6th level one, the ranger gets me there faster, but I lose Improved Trip. I could trade Favored Power Attack and PMP for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Or, in the first build, trade them for Blind-fight and Pierce Magical Concealment.
I could go WolfBarbarian2/Fighter2/Ranger1 and get 2 favored enemies or Rage, and lose one feat...

Fawsto
2010-04-25, 08:10 PM
Saying this in English for obvious reasons...

You want the Shifting Planar Mastery, right? What do you think could you take you there faster and synergize well with it?

One thing you have not told us (gaming group) is what exactly you intend to do in game? I mean, you want to be a Witch Hunter, but how do you intend to witch hunt? Do you intend to Dim Door (HW terrain mastery) next to the caster while threatening her with your Spiked Chain so you will attack her if she tries to move (combat reflexes) or when she tries to cast (mage slayer)?

Do you want to go Lockdown or do you intend to One Shot the casters? Talk about your strategy.

The Rabbler
2010-04-25, 08:24 PM
because if a caster gets away once, it's very likely you'll never get him. I suppose there would be some place in the fall of such a society for a campaign involving this Fighter.


let's remember that most wizards are not super-optimized. most wizards do stuff based on what they think is effective, not based on what we think is effective. if all that's being sent at a wizard is a few fighter-types, I he/she would not use sleep or color spray over a scorching ray. now, a wizard would not scry every single famous (as by now these players would be famous) mage-hunter and analyze their tactics. the wizard would still probably do what he could to kill them by direct damage. this means a smart team could take him down.

and also, not every wizard knows every single spell.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 08:33 PM
let's remember that most wizards are not super-optimized. most wizards do stuff based on what they think is effective, not based on what we think is effective. if all that's being sent at a wizard is a few fighter-types, I he/she would not use sleep or color spray over a scorching ray. now, a wizard would not scry every single famous (as by now these players would be famous) mage-hunter and analyze their tactics. the wizard would still probably do what he could to kill them by direct damage. this means a smart team could take him down.

and also, not every wizard knows every single spell.Yes, but mid-to-high level wizards are amongst the most intelligent creatures in the multiverse (smarter than most gods, in fact). Any intelligent wizard (ie, all of them except for Bob-The-Unfortunate-Whose-Current-Circumstances-Shall-Never-Be-Repeated) would know that battlefield control and save-or-suck/lose/die and a few permaminions and buffs would be considerably more effective in virtually all situations than direct damage.

Direct damage is for sorcerers who don't know any better and the very rare metamagic specialist blaster who can one-shot several creatures (and possibly entire encounters) with a single spell slot.

Fawsto
2010-04-25, 08:34 PM
If this is relevant, we are not so famous, but Wizards normaly play wise against us and we like to think that we play smart against them too.

Mages having all spells? Hell, no! Not even Clerics know all the spells from the splatbooks. It is hard to even ressurect someone: that I know, there are only 2 Clerics in the entire world that have/will have access to Res Spells. One of them is mine and he needs one more level to start being able to do so.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 08:41 PM
If this is relevant, we are not so famous, but Wizards normaly play wise against us and we like to think that we play smart against them too.

Mages having all spells? Hell, no! Not even Clerics know all the spells from the splatbooks. It is hard to even ressurect someone: that I know, there are only 2 Clerics in the entire world that have/will have access to Res Spells. One of them is mine and he needs one more level to start being able to do so.If all the clerics (sans 2) in the whole world are that low level, then if the caster-killer is a wizard, there shouldn't be any problems at all with the churches taking him out.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 08:41 PM
Do you intend to Dim Door (HW terrain mastery) next to the caster while threatening her with your Spiked Chain so you will attack her if she tries to move (combat reflexes) or when she tries to cast (mage slayer)?

Do you want to go Lockdown or do you intend to One Shot the casters?

Yes, yes, yes aaand yes.


Talk about you stategy.

Strategy, from the greek Strategia...

At level 11 it is improbable to One-Shot, but magekiller+spikedchain+favoredpowerattack+improved trip guarantees that if he tries to cast or move, it will hurt.

Edit: Fawsto was not very clear, but he meant that the spell lists are modified in this campaign, the really good spells are harder to find, he didn't mean that all people are low-level.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 08:48 PM
Edit: Fawsto was not very clear, but he meant that the spell lists are modified in this campaign, the really good spells are harder to find, he didn't mean that all people are low-level.This just makes that feat that gives you twice the spells each level even better; choose which ones you want, and you get them automatically, and you don't even have to pay for them.

Meanwhile, the clerics are stuck.

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 08:53 PM
Human WolfBarbarianVariant 1 = Favored Enemy (Arcanist), Illiteracy, Fast Movement, Power Attack, Use Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain)
WBV2 = Improved Trip, Combat Sytle
Fighter 1 = Combat Reflexes, Mage Slayer
Fighter 2 = Favored Power Attack
Fighter 3 = ":smallfrown:"
Fighter 4 = Endurance, Leap Attack
HW 1
HW 2
HW 3 = Pierce Magical Protection or Blind-Fight.

Ranger 1 = FE, Track, Wild Empathy, Power Attack, UEA(SC)
Ranger 2 = Combat Style
Ranger 3 = Endurance, Mage Slayer
Fighter 1 = Combat Reflexes
Fighter 2 = Favored Power Attack
HW 1 = Leap Attack
HW 2
Hw 3
Hw 4 = PMP or BF

If the main class feature I want to use of HW is the 6th level one, the ranger gets me there faster, but I lose Improved Trip. I could trade Favored Power Attack and PMP for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip. Or, in the first build, trade them for Blind-fight and Pierce Magical Concealment.
I could go WolfBarbarian2/Fighter2/Ranger1 and get 2 favored enemies or Rage, and lose one feat...

I don't know how much good PMP will do you. At level 9, mirror image and invisibility are more troublesome than shield. The lack of Shock Trooper makes it more useful, though, since you don't have the luxury of raising your damage without penalizing your attack. Improved Trip is a little bit "meh" for the build, despite that tripping is the best combat tactic other than 'hit for massive damage', because you lack bonuses on the opposed check from sources like Jotunbrud. Were I to change anything, I'd probably make that Blind-Fight and your level 9 feat Pierce Magical Concealment, but I'm not confident that that's the right choice.


let's remember that most wizards are not super-optimized. most wizards do stuff based on what they think is effective, not based on what we think is effective. if all that's being sent at a wizard is a few fighter-types, I he/she would not use sleep or color spray over a scorching ray. now, a wizard would not scry every single famous (as by now these players would be famous) mage-hunter and analyze their tactics. the wizard would still probably do what he could to kill them by direct damage. this means a smart team could take him down.

and also, not every wizard knows every single spell.

It doesn't have to be most wizards. Most wizards get caught. The ones that get away are that much more likely to have done so because they know what works and what doesn't.

And I do think that most such wizards, having been instilled with a healthy amount of paranoia from early experiences running from the entire rest of society, would devote a good deal of time to scrying potential threats. They would also be on the lookout for any opportunity to increase their knowledge of the arcane--every spellbook they could get their hands on, for example (this would depend on the campaign setting). But spell diversity is admittedly a more serious issue for this world.


This just makes that feat that gives you twice the spells each level even better; choose which ones you want, and you get them automatically, and you don't even have to pay for them.

Meanwhile, the clerics are stuck.

As I said before, while wizards in this campaign world would like to have access to Collegiate Wizard, it's unlikely they'll find any colleges willing to accommodate them.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-25, 08:54 PM
This just makes that feat that gives you twice the spells each level even better; choose which ones you want, and you get them automatically, and you don't even have to pay for them.

Meanwhile, the clerics are stuck.

That's collegiate wizard, right?
In a place that likely doesn't have any wizard colleges.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-25, 09:00 PM
That's collegiate wizard, right?
In a place that likely doesn't have any wizard colleges.Fluff. Just say, "I'm extra learney," and you'll be fine.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 09:02 PM
Yes, I see Pierce Magical Concealment as much better than PMP, but I didn't know where to fit the blind-fight. There is Dragon-Totem Barbarian...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-25, 09:08 PM
Yes, yes, yes aaand yes.



Strategy, from the greek Strategia...

At level 11 it is improbable to One-Shot, but magekiller+spikedchain+favoredpowerattack+improved trip guarantees that if he tries to cast or move, it will hurt.

Edit: Fawsto was not very clear, but he meant that the spell lists are modified in this campaign, the really good spells are harder to find, he didn't mean that all people are low-level.

Note: Casters still have options, even in a negative situation. Quicken spell obviates the need to cast defensively, because Swift/Immediate spells never provoke. Circlets of RapidCasting are also good.

Schism for the psychics also obviates defensive casting needs.

It's a solid idea, and it'll catch a lot of casters off guard. But if you're DDooring in, you generally can't act afterwards. That gives the opportunity to get away, although unprepared casters won't likely have the tools to deal with "ohpoopitsbesideme"

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 09:15 PM
Yes, I see Pierce Magical Concealment as much better than PMP, but I didn't know where to fit the blind-fight. There is Dragon-Totem Barbarian...

Leap Attack, maybe. You sacrifice a lot of one-shotting potential, but one-shots don't work if you can't hit, and you might be better off playing lockdown anyway. Double move action to get adjacent to the wizard, ready an attack to disrupt spellcasting; if he tries to move, you get an AoO to trip, and if he tries to cast, you get two chances to muddle his concentration if I'm interpreting the interaction between readied actions and attacks of opportunity correctly. The only problem would be shenanigans like Abrupt Jaunt, but those are pretty serious shenanigans.

EDIT: Okay, maybe they aren't very serious shenanigans. Never mind, then.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 09:17 PM
The only problem would be shenanigans like Abrupt Jaunt, but those are pretty serious shenanigans.

Serious and banned shenanigans, on our table.

Math_Mage
2010-04-25, 09:23 PM
Serious and banned shenanigans, on our table.

Well, that's just the worst of them. PR mentioned some of the others; among them, Quicken Spell is perfectly ordinary core caster fodder.

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 09:29 PM
Yeah, I know, but, what IS one gonna do against Quicken? Unless I can walk around with an Anti-Magic field, that is.

The Rabbler
2010-04-25, 09:32 PM
I think you should argue for ToB. if you managed to get it okay'd, you'd have a much easier time dealing with casters (even if it's only one martial study feat to get iron heart surge).

Il_Vec
2010-04-25, 11:13 PM
ToB is not gonna happen, nor are Psionics. Really. :smallsigh:

Pluto
2010-04-26, 12:59 AM
Is this the sort of game where you can expect casters to use basic defenses like Anticipate Teleport?

Because if it is, Horizon Walker is a six-level investment for a death wish.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-26, 01:33 AM
Is this the sort of game where you can expect casters to use basic defenses like Anticipate Teleport?

Because if it is, Horizon Walker is a six-level investment for a death wish.

LOL, I've had that spell make shadowpouncers cry. He wondered why he did 4 dim doors in 1 round, only to find the enemy was always 30 feet away, and shot at him as soon as he appeared.

Never realized that there was a 1 round delay between each dimdoor.

Math_Mage
2010-04-26, 01:38 AM
Is this the sort of game where you can expect casters to use basic defenses like Anticipate Teleport?

Because if it is, Horizon Walker is a six-level investment for a death wish.

That's a 'basic defense' the way tesuji are 'basic moves' to a dan-level Go player.

In other words, probably not.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 08:11 AM
The DM rules that Phb spells are relatively "easy" to find for all spelcasters, with some exceptions, and the other spells must be found in-game, even for spontaneous casters (Must have seen to learn, or communed with a magical site related to the spell, like the Frozen Throne to learn Frostburn spells or the Hearth of Darkness in the Great Necropolis to learn some SpC necromancy...)

One of Fawsto's clerics had to travel to the highest peak of the north, and commune with Thor there, in order to be granted ressurection spells.

The NPCs usually have 2 or 3 spells from SpC or splatbooks, and usually never broken ones, except people portrayied as specially powerful.

Anticipate Teleport, I seriously doubt he'd use, simply because almost no one expects other people to teleport.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-26, 08:28 AM
Hmm... What about a few levels in Jaunter for mobility, some witch slayer for mettle, A bit of dread Commando for Init boost, and something else for a damage boost......:smallconfused:

Ditto
2010-04-26, 08:43 AM
I believe the rules for it are stated somewhere in CrystalKeep, but if you want to pick up some casting and not get hassled for it you should max Sleight of Hand. You can use it to disguise casting vs. an opposed Spot check. My beguiler hasn't been caught casting yet. :smallsmile:

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 11:28 AM
I believe the rules for it are stated somewhere in CrystalKeep, but if you want to pick up some casting and not get hassled for it you should max Sleight of Hand. You can use it to disguise casting vs. an opposed Spot check. My beguiler hasn't been caught casting yet. :smallsmile:

I fear that doing that would open precedents for us to get ganked real hard by a bunch of thief-casters.
But, it would perhaps be worth the try.

Fawsto
2010-04-26, 01:23 PM
Our DM playing around with Roguish Casters? Man, we are already doomed with those who cast openly. Imagine if... Ohhh Damn it! This explains Qallas the Half-Elf! How could I never noticed it?! (Internal Joke, sorry :smallredface:).

Damn, I've been reading the Dim Door spell at PHB not touched by our dear Devir translators: If you Dim Door, you can't take actions until your next turn, so, unless I am going crazy: no AoO! This is bad.

If you want to use HW ability to do WarpN'Awe, it will require some talk with the DM. Otherwise, going up 6 levels into HW wont cut it. At least not as a directly offensive tatic (It would, however, help at running away).

Ignoring that, going lockdown seems interesting.

Ahh! Good News! Dimensional Anchor is Clr/Sor/Wiz level 4! We still have a chance to lock our dear villain while we slash him a new mouth.

One more thing: For the last time: THERE ARE MAGIC SCHOOLS IN THE WORLD! Including in the "we hate casters" kingdom. There are casters working for the government there. And not only that: There is an entire society of Wizards running the show at the desert kingdoms. So yeah, there are schools of magic around, you just have to choose your background carefully.

Edit: Ironicaly, I am playing with 2 clerics at separate partys right now. The lowest level one (Level 8) is the one that will be able to cast Ressurrection. The other one, at level 11, doesn't even know that there is such thing the world. It is worth a commune for it, though.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-26, 02:03 PM
I don't like the thought of an Anti-Caster Melee, because you will die. Repeatedly. It's a losing battle. Even with Mage Hunter, Occult Slayer, Arcanapath Monk, and Mage Slayer Feats. You will lose every time. Just that simple.

However, a Feat Ranger (Unarmed Discipline from one Dragon Magazine) 4/Arcanapath Monk (DMC) 6/Occult Slayer 5/Mage Hunter 5 would be your best bet.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 02:37 PM
Damn, I've been reading the Dim Door spell at PHB not touched by our dear Devir translators: If you Dim Door, you can't take actions until your next turn, so, unless I am going crazy: no AoO! This is bad.

If you want to use HW ability to do WarpN'Awe, it will require some talk with the DM. Otherwise, going up 6 levels into HW wont cut it. At least not as a directly offensive tatic (It would, however, help at running away).


I was already taking that into account. The thing is, dimdoor to a covered place and instantly hide/move silently. Next turn, leapcharge. Might work.

Person_Man
2010-04-26, 03:03 PM
Most of the good ideas have already been mentioned. I'd add:

Sunder an enemy's holy symbol or spell pouch, and they often can't cast. Don't even bother with Improved Sunder, just use an adamantine reach weapon.
You can pull off the same trick with Sleight of Hand as a Free Action.
The Binder makes an excellent caster killer. Although he lacks full BAB and thus can't one-shot enemies effectively, he has a number of debuffs, Save or Lose effects, diplomancy, divination, and a number of anti-caster abilities - Greater Dispel Magic, Awe of Dantalion (no one can attack or cast against you for one round - no Save), Improved Grapple/Constrict, etc. And all of their abilities are Supernatural, so they're much harder for casters to detect or remove, and you're free to take Mage Slayer while having a bunch of abilities that duplicate spells.
Totemist or Psychic Warrior are the best Grapple monsters. A Grappled caster is essentially a dead caster, unless they are similarly built for grappling or have Freedom of Movement on beforehand.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 03:56 PM
Binder, Totemist and Psionics are off my current limits...
I'd considered grappling, but without means of getting the bonus to be absurd, prolly i'll only get to grapple whimpy wizards that I could lockdown with trip+mageslayer, and trip works on most non-casters (except big monsters, of course.)
But grappling is still amongst the best tools for me.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 04:05 PM
Totemist or Psychic Warrior are the best Grapple monsters. A Grappled caster is essentially a dead caster, unless they are similarly built for grappling or have Freedom of Movement on beforehand.

What about a silent teleporting spell?

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 04:06 PM
What about a silent teleporting spell?

You mean Still Spell.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 04:11 PM
You mean Still Spell.

Dimension Door only has Verbal components so Silent Dimension Door requires nothing.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 04:42 PM
Dimension Door only has Verbal components so Silent Dimension Door requires nothing.

My point being grappled characters can't use spells with somatic components, silent spell wouldn't be necessary.

Prodan
2010-04-26, 04:44 PM
My point being grappled characters can't use spells with somatic components, silent spell wouldn't be necessary.

If they're pinned, they can't use spells with verbal components.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 04:46 PM
If they're pinned, they can't use spells with verbal components.

That will only come up if I initiate the grapple on the surprise round and proceed to win initiative, pinning the caster before he takes any actions.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 04:51 PM
That will only come up if I initiate the grapple on the surprise round and proceed to win initiative, pinning the caster before he takes any actions.

Pounce. Either way, Still Spell is not needed.

Il_Vec
2010-04-26, 04:53 PM
Pounce. Either way, Still Spell is not needed.

And silent spell only needed in few cases. Grappling is still not worth it.

Eldariel
2010-04-26, 04:57 PM
And silent spell only needed in few cases. Grappling is still not worth it.

1) Totemists and Psychic Warriors are great grapplers regardless of the usefulness of grappling against casters.
2) Such classes maining Grapple as a combat tactic will grapple against casters too.
3) Such classes have easy access to pounce meaning they can pin casters easily, but if caster buffed his HP, the low damage of Grapple might mean he isn't dead after R1.

If you have free Silent Spell from a source like Unseen Seer, I'd always prepare Silent Dimension Door once per day. It's still as good as ever for a normal Dimension Door if so desired.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-26, 05:43 PM
Grappling is a very bad tactic throughout most of the game (unless you're a monster going up against PCs). There are so many ways to castrate a grappler it's not even funny. Especially since anklets of translocation are so wonderfully cheap.

Woot Spitum
2010-04-26, 06:19 PM
That's a 'basic defense' the way tesuji are 'basic moves' to a dan-level Go player.

In other words, probably not.Considering that all the weak and stupid wizards have been killed off and only the strongest, most intelligent, and paranoid ones have survived, I wouldn't be so sure.

If teleporting into melee is a fairly standard tactic for witch hunters in this world, I would say it is almost certain that nearly all spellcasters with even rudimentary knowledge of witch hunter tactics would have at least looked into a way to counter teleporting.

Yukitsu
2010-04-26, 06:41 PM
Considering that all the weak and stupid wizards have been killed off and only the strongest, most intelligent, and paranoid ones have survived, I wouldn't be so sure.

If teleporting into melee is a fairly standard tactic for witch hunters in this world, I would say it is almost certain that nearly all spellcasters with even rudimentary knowledge of witch hunter tactics would have at least looked into a way to counter teleporting.

I know mine had greater anticipate teleport running in the match he was involved in.

Math_Mage
2010-04-26, 09:45 PM
Considering that all the weak and stupid wizards have been killed off and only the strongest, most intelligent, and paranoid ones have survived, I wouldn't be so sure.

If teleporting into melee is a fairly standard tactic for witch hunters in this world, I would say it is almost certain that nearly all spellcasters with even rudimentary knowledge of witch hunter tactics would have at least looked into a way to counter teleporting.

First, this doesn't really work in Il-Vec's campaign world, where it's just this one nation that hates casters. All they have to do is leave, which doesn't necessarily take great strength, intelligence, paranoia, knowledge, or much of anything else.

Second, there's nothing to indicate that teleporting into melee is a 'fairly standard tactic' for anybody. Just because this character can do it doesn't mean others will--and even this character won't do it, because it's a bad tactic even without Anticipate Teleportation. The stated tactic is to D-Door into charging range--at level 10, 60 feet is outside the wizard's Anticipate Teleport radius, to say nothing of charging with fast movement. So Anticipate Teleport doesn't do very much against this (admittedly weak) tactic. Of course, the game changes if it's a whole party D-Dooring in, which is probably the point.

mabriss lethe
2010-04-26, 11:00 PM
The humble spellthief is quite fun and can be a nasty antagonist against casters. High initiative is a plus. You can even get away with mage slayer feats, too. Your caster level is irrelevant to stolen spells. you cast them exactly like whomever you stole them from. For your own spells, pick ones that CL doesn't matter as much. See if the DM will let you swap out something for the Rogue ACF that lets you sneak attack undead and constructs, or see if he'll let you pick it up as a feat.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-26, 11:33 PM
First, this doesn't really work in Il-Vec's campaign world, where it's just this one nation that hates casters. All they have to do is leave, which doesn't necessarily take great strength, intelligence, paranoia, knowledge, or much of anything else.

Second, there's nothing to indicate that teleporting into melee is a 'fairly standard tactic' for anybody. Just because this character can do it doesn't mean others will--and even this character won't do it, because it's a bad tactic even without Anticipate Teleportation. The stated tactic is to D-Door into charging range--at level 10, 60 feet is outside the wizard's Anticipate Teleport radius, to say nothing of charging with fast movement. So Anticipate Teleport doesn't do very much against this (admittedly weak) tactic. Of course, the game changes if it's a whole party D-Dooring in, which is probably the point.
The issue is, teleporting in at those ranges prevents you from taking any actions to close the gap, and leaves you outside of AoO range.

The danger is a teleport into AoO range. Ant. Teleport covers that. No, it doesn't do everything, but it doesn't need to. Heck, the greater variant lets you force a teleport into a very hostile environment.

Shadowpounce lets you full attack after a teleport. I don't know of any ability that lets you charge on one. That's what you'd need for this to be effective.

Inside core, it won't work, but inside core, there's no Thicket of Blades to prevent tumble. Inside core, Dim Door can be defensively cast. Inside core, there's less options for melee.

Anticipate Teleport is the weapon of choice for the paranoid. I can't think of too many tactical spells that are better suited for preventing an ambush. Perhaps Mindblank. Possibly Foresight. But it's crazy good.

Don't get me wrong. Close range teleport is an effective tactic. But, were a group to tray to ambush a caster with ant teleport up and get in? Well, if 5 blips come up on my radar, I'm bugging out and dropping a scry sensor in the room. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, for example. I'm going to try to learn who they are, how they found me.

Then I'm going to close that weakness. In other words? I'll use the ambush to my advantage, and perhaps thank them for their assistance.*

*Message will Read: "Thank you for identifying the weak link in my defense. Oh, and I prepared Explosive Runes this morning."

Person_Man
2010-04-27, 08:22 AM
Grappling is a very bad tactic throughout most of the game (unless you're a monster going up against PCs). There are so many ways to castrate a grappler it's not even funny. Especially since anklets of translocation are so wonderfully cheap.

Grappling is an amazing tactic under certain conditions:

Is your party fighting a small number of enemies (or is there only a few enemies left on the battlefield)?
Is your target your size or smaller?
Is your target not specifically built for Grappling?
Does your DM generally avoid making enemies that have spells/items/etc that specifically nerf your build?


If the answer to these four things is yes, then Grappling is a good idea if your build has invested in it properly. If not, use some other tactic. No one has claimed that it's an automatic win button, and no build should put all of their eggs into one basket.

Yes, your target can get out of it with Still spells, magic items, etc. But how often is that realistically going to happen? Does your DM build every encounter just to spite you?