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Khellendross
2010-04-22, 04:04 PM
Okay, my roommate and I got into a discussion about how scent vs an invisible creature would work. By the normal rules of the scent ability it says you can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

I don't have an argument there it's clear cut. What I'm saying is the rules for invisibility somewhat go against that or add to the scent ability. It says in the srd this.

"A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one." This is saying the creature is no different than one that is visible. You don't get a miss chance against a visible creature. If it was hiding behind a rock or just not out in the open then you'd have to be 5=ft to pinpoint it.

He feels you still can't pin point it and that they don't become visible that it still has a miss chance but if that was the case then the rules under invisibility are completely wrong.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 04:06 PM
I have a bit of a discussion going with a friend of mine.

He says that the scent quality makes invisibility completely irrelevant under all standard situations. I, however, say the creature with scent has to be within 5' in order to pinpoint its location and ignore the 50% miss chance.

Under the invisibility rules in the SRD, it states:

A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one.

Under scent, it says:

This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.

Now, given the fact that both use the word 'detect' in an identical manner, and a creature cannot pinpoint another creature's location using scent alone beyond 5', but has to note the direction of the creature's scent and cannot pinpoint even a visible creature by scent alone unless it's within 5', does scent negate invisibility, allowing the scent-using creature to pinpoint the creature beyond 5'?

Douglas
2010-04-22, 04:09 PM
The quote from Invisibility means that, with regards to the Scent ability, a creature with Scent can detect an invisible creature as if it were visible. That means you can note direction within a certain distance depending on wind and strength of smell, and you can pinpoint if it's within 5'. "Pinpoint" in D&D means "determine which 5' square". It does not negate concealment or miss chance of any kind.

A creature with scent can determine which 5' square an invisible creature that is within 5' of it is in, but it still has the full miss chance and other penalties for fighting an invisible creature.

Cuaqchi
2010-04-22, 04:09 PM
Personally, I treat it as knowing the exact square the target is in. Allowing an attack that has concealment, but is otherwise targeting the right area, without Scent you don't even get that.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-22, 04:10 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150077
Related?

Ranger Mattos
2010-04-22, 04:11 PM
Interesting how this popped up 2 minutes after another thread wit hthe same idea.

I actually don't think that if you detected it with scent while within 5 ft, then if it moved away that it would still be 'visible.' It would only be visible within 5 ft.

Douglas
2010-04-22, 04:17 PM
I wonder if Roland will bother merging these threads.

My response from the other thread:

The quote from Invisibility means that, with regards to the Scent ability, a creature with Scent can detect an invisible creature as if it were visible. That means you can note direction within a certain distance depending on wind and strength of smell, and you can pinpoint if it's within 5'. "Pinpoint" in D&D means "determine which 5' square". It does not negate concealment or miss chance of any kind.

A creature with scent can determine which 5' square an invisible creature that is within 5' of it is in, but it still has the full miss chance and other penalties for fighting an invisible creature.

jiriku
2010-04-22, 04:25 PM
The phrase you're looking at merely means that being invisible offers no special protection from the scent ability. The scent ability still works as advertised. The clarification has value because many people assume that being invisible actually renders you undetectable, and this is not the case.

Zeta Kai
2010-04-22, 04:47 PM
You know what's freaky? This is thread #150078. The other thread on the exact same topic? Thread #150077. This was literally the very next thread here. Wild.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 07:16 PM
Anyone else have an opinion on the matter?

Yuki Akuma
2010-04-22, 07:46 PM
There's no opinions - the rules are pretty clear here. Even when you know which square an invisible creature is in (through sent, or tremorsense or what have you), you still take the 50% miss chance because you still can't actually see it. The creature is smaller than its space, and it can still see you to defend against you.

Also, you're still denied your Dexterity bonus to AC, even when you know it's there - because you don't know when it's going to attack.

It's useful for, say, area attacks, though.

Keld Denar
2010-04-22, 07:52 PM
Yea, Scent gives you exactly the same information that getting hit gives you. You know what square (within 5') the attack came from, but you don't know exactly within that 5' square the attacker is.

Thus, even with Scent, or BlindSENSE, or Tremorsense, or Mindsight, or Lifesight, or any other detection mode other than See Invis, True Seeing, or BlindSIGHT, an invisible foe still has 50% concealment, can't be targeted by spells (with a Target: X line, AoEs and Rays still work), and stikes against your flat-footed AC with a +2 bonus (unless you can't be caught flat-footed via Uncanny Dodge or similar ability).

Khellendross
2010-04-22, 09:24 PM
So even though it says pin point you still get a miss chance? That doesn't make sense. In the underdark many things are blind and can fight with NO MISS CHANCE because they have tremorsense. That would also mean that anything within 5'ft of sent means you can hit them with no problem. Pinpointing is just that you have no miss chance you know then and can see them. If not then they need to re-write the rules clarifying that because how else do you explain blind creatures with tremorsense not having a miss chance?

I was wrong on the sent vs invisibility after I re-read it but I disagree on pinpointing.

Example, Blind spiders or trap door spiders don't even have to look, when they feel the tugs on their web they can pinpoint and pounce without missing.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 09:31 PM
Yea, Scent gives you exactly the same information that getting hit gives you. You know what square (within 5') the attack came from, but you don't know exactly within that 5' square the attacker is.

Thus, even with Scent, or BlindSENSE, or Tremorsense, or Mindsight, or Lifesight, or any other detection mode other than See Invis, True Seeing, or BlindSIGHT, an invisible foe still has 50% concealment, can't be targeted by spells (with a Target: X line, AoEs and Rays still work), and stikes against your flat-footed AC with a +2 bonus (unless you can't be caught flat-footed via Uncanny Dodge or similar ability).I was sure that's how it worked, but I'm pretty much gonna give up on using invisible constructs with him, since they've been negated against every foe I've taken on, including lycanthropes with scent, an uber-remorhaz with tremorsense, and wizards who use scry on familiar to "see through their eyes," and basically make me waste all the power points I spent on making the constructs.

Although he bet me his car that you guys would agree with him, so it legally belongs to me now. Technically. Though I'm not gonna take it from him.

Douglas
2010-04-22, 09:56 PM
So even though it says pin point you still get a miss chance? That doesn't make sense. In the underdark many things are blind and can fight with NO MISS CHANCE because they have tremorsense.
Got a rules quote for that "no miss chance" bit? I've got several for "pinpoint but still have miss chance".

All opponents have total concealment from a blinded creature, so the blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat. A blinded creature must first pinpoint the location of an opponent in order to attack the right square (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#darkness) (note that even with pinpointing it's still "attacking the square" rather than "attacking the creature")

It’s almost impossible to pinpoint the location of an unseen creature. A Listen check that beats the DC by 20 reveals the unseen creature’s square (but the unseen creature still has total concealment from the blinded creature). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#darkness)

If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#listen)

If the character beats the DC by 20 or more, he or she can pinpoint the location of the invisible creature, though it still maintains total concealment from the character (50% miss chance). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#spot)

It’s practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature’s location with a Spot check, and even if a character succeeds on such a check, the invisible creature still benefits from total concealment (50% miss chance). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility)

Dragons can pinpoint creatures within a distance of 60 feet. Opponents the dragon can’t actually see still have total concealment against the dragon. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm)

Additionally, from an article on wizards.com:
Even after pinpointing a creature, you'll still have a miss chance when you attack it if you can't actually see it (or perceive it through some other means that's at least as acute as vision). (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040914a)


That would also mean that anything within 5'ft of sent means you can hit them with no problem. Pinpointing is just that you have no miss chance you know then and can see them. If not then they need to re-write the rules clarifying that because how else do you explain blind creatures with tremorsense not having a miss chance?

I was wrong on the sent vs invisibility after I re-read it but I disagree on pinpointing.

Example, Blind spiders or trap door spiders don't even have to look, when they feel the tugs on their web they can pinpoint and pounce without missing.
Pinpoint means you know something's there and you know what square it's in. In order to ignore concealment miss chance, you need something more. Blind creatures that rely entirely on tremorsense do, in fact, typically have miss chance unless specified otherwise.

If something is blind but has other senses sufficiently capable to ignore miss chance, that is typically represented with Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), not Tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense).

Khellendross
2010-04-22, 09:58 PM
Haha, well to start with I'm the DM that was running Lycanthromancer and the scent I was wrong on but I still stick by tremorsense. As for the scrying I was using speak with master so they could direct a area dispel since the spider had tremorsense so I don't see a problem there. Even if I worded by saying scrying it's rules lawyering on his part. Oh and did I mention in the adventure it says the wizards have see invisibility, do I have to tell the player that, no and nor should I have to. There is a difference between pointing out a mistake on the Dm's part and demanding a re-roll on a bunch of stuff halting combat and just allowing the fix for future rounds. Not to mention its not the players right to know how they are doing things, that is player knowledge vs character knowledge. In the end what the DM says goes.

For other players out there if you have a problem point it out and ask that it be fixed but don't demand mulligans and re-rolls halting the flow of combat or you'll not play.

I'm a fair DM, if you can point out I'm wrong and show me the rules but just saying you're wrong and starting a argument isn't going to get you anywhere, same with demands.

Futhermore what douglas did was great in my book, he found rulings for it instead of saying you're wrong I"m right and fighting about it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 10:06 PM
Futhermore what douglas did was great in my book, he found rulings for it instead of saying you're wrong I"m right and fighting about it.Just because I didn't find the rule in question doesn't mean it's not there, y'know.

Khellendross
2010-04-22, 10:09 PM
/hug I know but still.

Keld Denar
2010-04-22, 10:11 PM
Well, Tremorsense only works against things that are touching the ground, so if you make your Astral Constructs fly, they'll be undetectable against foes with Tremorsense. Lifesight and Mindsight wouldn't work, because ACs are non-living and non-intelligent.

Scent shouldn't work against an AC. Nothing in the game says that ectoplasm has an oder, does it? I can't find anything atm.

That literally just leaves Blindsense and See Invis as methods of detecting invisible ACs, as far as I can tell...

Douglas
2010-04-22, 10:15 PM
Just because I didn't find the rule in question doesn't mean it's not there, y'know.
True, but simply asserting that you are right without providing evidence is not likely to win any arguments. I don't know how accurate a description of your behavior that is, but it's something to keep in mind regardless.

Oh, and in case Khellendross missed my edit:
If something is blind but has other senses sufficiently capable to ignore miss chance, that is typically represented with Blindsight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#blindsightAndBlindsense), not Tremorsense (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#tremorsense).

Khellendross
2010-04-22, 10:37 PM
Got ya douglas.

Besides he is playing a psion/constructor level 11 with all kinds of grafts and items to give him free pp and extra manifester level. Even if they didn't have see invisibility, which they did, I just wasn't going to mention it because it's not the players right to know. I have to make the encounters a challenge when all he does is teleport around and summon level 8!!! Astral Constructs at level 11 that have ranged attacks 40 str and natural invisibility.

The astral constructs are the same challenge rating almost as the encounters. Normally a 8 but when you add in the fact they get extra stuff from the prestige class they are actually far stronger than a CR 8 creature more like 11 or 12.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 10:45 PM
Got ya douglas.

Besides he is playing a psion/constructor level 11 with all kinds of grafts and items to give him free pp and extra manifester level. Even if they didn't have see invisibility, which they did, I just wasn't going to mention it because it's not the players right to know. I have to make the encounters a challenge when all he does is teleport around and summon level 8!!! Astral Constructs at level 11 that have ranged attacks 40 str and natural invisibility.

The astral constructs are the same challenge rating almost as the encounters. Normally a 8 but when you add in the fact they get extra stuff from the prestige class they are actually far stronger than a CR 8 creature more like 11 or 12.Well, you did nearly take me out in the first round, and I've been soloing CR 11+ critters using nothing but my op-fu skills.