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Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 04:43 PM
After my midly successful attemp to teach my fellow players how to optimize, I managed to teach them about Jaronk's tier system; well one of my friend saw the psychic warrior on tier 3 and he dissagreed since he considered the lack of Full BAB as a bad thing that in his opinion out psy warrior on tier 4. I respectfully said that 3/4 BAB wasn't enough to drop a tier. We continued arguing and in the end we decided to make a battle (ECL 13) to test the them.

Now he will definetly use sometype of caster, hence I am trying to make a pure psychic warrior build using the mage slayer line of feats.

Assuming transparency is in effect, does the CL loss is transfered as ML loss?

Thanks in advance

Touchy
2010-04-22, 04:47 PM
Assuming he wants to fight you and claim your underpowered, he should use another tier 3, instead of murder you outright like he could about any other class that doesn't beat initiative.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 04:50 PM
Assuming he wants to fight you and claim your underpowered, he should use another tier 3, instead of murder you outright like he could about any other class that doesn't beat initiative.
I am confindent that he won't be too troublesome considering that he has never played a caster before (I introduced to D&D about a year and a half ago, and so far he have only played melee warrior or skill monkeys). But in the spirit of the game maybe I should ask him to use another tier 3

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-22, 04:53 PM
Transparency rules do not include feats. Technically, feat effects are not covered in transparency.


Psionics-Magic Transparency

Though not explicitly called out in the spell descriptions or magic item descriptions, spells, spell-like abilities, and magic items that could potentially affect psionics do affect psionics.

When the rule about psionics-magic transparency is in effect, it has the following ramifications.

Spell resistance is effective against powers, using the same mechanics. Likewise, power resistance is effective against spells, using the same mechanics as spell resistance. If a creature has one kind of resistance, it is assumed to have the other. (The effects have similar ends despite having been brought about by different means.)

All spells that dispel magic have equal effect against powers of the same level using the same mechanics, and vice versa.

The spell detect magic detects powers, their number, and their strength and location within 3 rounds (though a Psicraft check is necessary to identify the discipline of the psionic aura).

Dead magic areas are also dead psionics areas.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 04:55 PM
Transparency rules do not include feats. Technically, feat effects are not covered in transparency.

:biggrin: Oh I like that, it will be excellent in case he does do a spellcaster.

Greenish
2010-04-22, 04:58 PM
We continued arguing and in the end we decided to make a battle (ECL 13) to test the them.With all due respect, how is 1 vs. 1 PvP fight (with characters tailored to counter each other) a test for the tier system?

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-22, 04:59 PM
Psi-Like Abilities (Ps)

The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class

For items and stuff, you can also treat manifestation as a SLA, even if feats don't work. Psionics are weird.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 05:01 PM
With all due respect, how is 1 vs. 1 PvP fight (with characters tailored to counter each other) a test for the tier system?
..... didn't think about that in that way; but hey we like pvp, so it is kind of a bonus.

And he doesn't dissagree with the tier system itself, just the place the psy war occupies in said system.

No intention to sound rude BTW

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-22, 05:02 PM
Due to transparency, psi-like abilities are treated like spell-like abilities.

True. Mage slayer doesn't affect spellcasting. It affects Caster Level. Since the spell doesn't directly hit spell like abilities, you're fine.

Greenish
2010-04-22, 05:04 PM
..... didn't think about that in that way; but hey we like pvp, so it is kind of a bonus.

And he doesn't dissagree with the tier system itself, just the place the psy war occupies in said system.

No intention to sound rude BTWI will reword that: what relevance does a 1 vs. 1 PvP fight have on the tier placement of class X?

TheMadLinguist
2010-04-22, 05:04 PM
True. Mage slayer doesn't affect spellcasting. It affects Caster Level. Since the spell doesn't directly hit spell like abilities, you're fine.

Ah, OK. I'm always a little confused on psionic/magic interactions, especially with things like quicken SLA being available to PLAs.

Mongoose87
2010-04-22, 05:04 PM
The point is that a better test would be a series of identical, level-appropriate challenges that test the ability of the class to overcome different types of adversity.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 05:10 PM
The point is that a better test would be a series of identical, level-appropriate challenges that test the ability of the class to overcome different types of adversity.

hmmm I'll try to do that.... thanks

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 07:03 PM
Go read the definition for Tier 3.

Now, compare that to, say, a straight psychic warrior 20 build, who can do any of the following (and not just one or two, either; he can do dozens):

-Relay telepathic messages to one party member (probably the scout), or a group of party members, up to 1 mile away/act as the party's universal translator/have and direct a mobile utility platform/possess a very tough and strong combat partner (Psicrystal Affinity)

-Run around on walls and up trees and scale reasonably sized cliffs at will, without Climb checks (Up the Walls)

-Do a 90 degree turn on a charge (Psionic Charge)

-Craft himself some very useful items so he can get pretty much whatever kind of equipment he wants (psionic item creation feats)

-Gain the supernatural abilities of whatever creatures he decides to emulate (Metamorphic Transfer)

-Make touch attacks instead of regular attacks (Deep Impact/Fell Shot/Unavoidable Strike)

-Pull in psionic powers from any other manifesting list, including disciplines (Expanded Knowledge or research)

-Has access to the full fighter feat list, barring fighter-only feats (which are, generally speaking, teh sux)

-Gain a massively damaging bite attack or two claw attacks, or summon a weapon to prevent yourself from ever becoming unarmed (bite of the wolf, claws of the beast, call weaponry)

-Increase or decrease his size up to two size categories in either direction, granting him all of the benefits thereof, including size bonuses to Hide/AC/attack bonus/Dex/Str/natural armor/damage die increases/various combat maneuvers (ie, trip, grapple, bull rush, etc)/reach, which also allows you to make effective use of combat maneuvers against creatures of size categories that fighters simply can't (expansion/compression)

-Grant himself stacking bonuses to AC, attacks, and saving throws (force screen, inertial armor, metaphysical claw/weapon, defensive/offensive precognition, thicken skin)

-Grant himself a massive buffer of temporary hp, as well as cutting the actual damage he takes in half, to reduce the need for healing (vigor + researched share pain + Psicrystal Affinity)

-Deal ability damage, thereby reducing the need to attack only a foe's hp score (prevenom, prevenom weapon, strength of my enemy, truevenom, truevenom weapon)

-Grant himself at least a +8 enhancement bonus to his Strength score by causing Strength damage to his foes (strength of my enemy)

-Perform a full attack on a charge (psionic lion's charge)

-Grant himself a +4 enhancement bonus on any ability score he likes (animal affinity)

-Heal himself of hp or ability damage using his own class abilities (body adjustment, body purification)

-Give himself concealment...or total concealment, which makes him immune to targeted spells and abilities, including lots of spells and attacks of opportunity (concealing amorpha, greater concealing amorpha)

-Teleport himself around the battlefield (dimension hop, dimension swap, psionic dimension door)

-Grant himself energy resistance (specified energy adaptation, energy adaptation)

-Give himself addenda to already acute senses due to his naturally high Wisdom (detect psionics, detect thoughts, elfsight, psionic darkvision, psionic scent, detect hostile intent, steadfast perception, ubiquitous vision)

-Effectively (or actually) grant himself extra actions (Twinned Power, Linked Power, Quicken Power, hustle, researched synchronicity, researched schism)

-Turn himself into (nearly) any creature he can think of (researched metamorphosis)

-Turn himself into a living nightmare of doom, granting him lots of attacks and frightful presence (form of doom)

-Grant himself extremely high bonuses to whatever combat maneuvers he wants to pull off...as an example, let's say grappling (expansion + strength of my enemy + Improved Grapple + grip of iron = +16 to grapple checks)

-Give himself every type of movement mode in the game (researched metamorphosis, float, wall walker researched psionic fly)

...and I've hardly even begun.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 07:08 PM
Go read the definition for Tier 3.

Now, compare that to, say, a straight psychic warrior 20 build, who can do any of the following (and not just one or two, either; he can do dozens):

-Relay telepathic messages to one party member (probably the scout), or a group of party members, up to 1 mile away/act as the party's universal translator/have and direct a mobile utility platform/possess a very tough and strong combat partner (Psicrystal Affinity)

-Run around on walls at will (Up the Walls)

-Do a 90 degree turn on a charge (Psionic Charge)

-Craft himself some very useful items so he can get pretty much whatever kind of equipment he wants (psionic item creation feats)

-Gain the supernatural abilities of whatever creatures he decides to emulate (Metamorphic Transfer)

-Make touch attacks instead of regular attacks (Deep Impact/Fell Shot/Unavoidable Strike)

-Pull in psionic powers from any other manifesting list, including disciplines (Expanded Knowledge or research)

-Has access to the full fighter feat list, barring fighter-only feats (which are, generally speaking, teh sux)

-Gain a massively damaging bite attack or two claw attacks, or summon a weapon to prevent yourself from ever becoming unarmed (bite of the wolf, claws of the beast, call weaponry)

-Increase or decrease his size up to two size categories in either direction, granting him all of the benefits thereof, including size bonuses to Hide/AC/attack bonus/Dex/Str/natural armor/damage die increases/various combat maneuvers (ie, trip, grapple, bull rush, etc)/reach, which also allows you to make effective use of combat maneuvers against creatures of size categories that fighters simply can't (expansion/compression)

-Grant himself stacking bonuses to AC, attacks, and saving throws (force screen, inertial armor, metaphysical claw/weapon, defensive/offensive precognition, thicken skin)

-Grant himself a massive buffer of temporary hp, as well as cutting the actual damage he takes in half, to reduce the need for healing (vigor + researched share pain + Psicrystal Affinity)

-Deal ability damage, thereby reducing the need to attack only a foe's hp score (prevenom, prevenom weapon, strength of my enemy, truevenom, truevenom weapon)

-Grant himself at least a +8 enhancement bonus to his Strength score by causing Strength damage to his foes (strength of my enemy)

-Perform a full attack on a charge (psionic lion's charge)

-Grant himself a +4 enhancement bonus on any ability score he likes (animal affinity)

-Heal himself of hp or ability damage using his own class abilities (body adjustment, body purification)

-Give himself concealment...or total concealment, which makes him immune to targeted spells and abilities, including lots of spells and attacks of opportunity (concealing amorpha, greater concealing amorpha)

-Teleport himself around the battlefield (dimension hop, dimension swap, psionic dimension door)

-Grant himself energy resistance (specified energy adaptation, energy adaptation)

-Give himself addenda to already acute senses due to his naturally high Wisdom (detect psionics, detect thoughts, elfsight, psionic darkvision, psionic scent, detect hostile intent, steadfast perception, ubiquitous vision)

-Effectively (or actually) grant himself extra actions (Twinned Power, Linked Power, Quicken Power, hustle, researched synchronicity, researched schism)

-Turn himself into (nearly) any creature he can think of (researched metamorphosis)

-Turn himself into a living nightmare of doom, granting him lots of attacks and frightful presence (form of doom)

...and I've hardly begun.

I know I could do that but pvp is more fun :smallamused:

Thanks anyway.. now I have more ideas for the portential build.... (claws of the beast + bite of the wolf+ metamorphosized psycrystal= WIN)

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-22, 07:12 PM
I know I could do that but pvp is more fun :smallamused:

Thanks anyway.. now I have more ideas for the portential build.... (claws of the beast + bite of the wolf+ metamorphosized psycrystal= WIN)Don't forget that you can share the metamorphosis between the two of you for double the win.

Turn yourself into a beholder, using Metamorphic Transfer to trap him in an antimagic cone, and then use telekinetic thrust to fire colossal javelins at him.

...as one of the many things you can do to kill him, of course.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-04-22, 07:15 PM
<snip>
Turn yourself into a beholder, using Metamorphic Transfer to trap him in an antimagic cone, and then use telekinetic thrust to fire colossal javelins at him.



.....:smallconfused::smalleek::smallsmile::smallam used:

DAMN you lycanthromancer, stop planting evil seeds in my mind:smalltongue:

herrhauptmann
2010-04-22, 11:48 PM
I could be blurring the line between being 'effective' and 'optimized,' but being effective is all I need to have fun in a fight, and that doesn't require optimization unless the DM is a jerk, or all the other players are munchkins.

And I'm going to echo someone elses question too.
If the other player believes the psy war is a tier 4 not a 3, why is he playing a character which can trounce either tier?

Page 91 starts listing ranger alternate features http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf . A small dip into ranger for FE: Arcanist, and a particular weapon style could be very useful. (Grapple, mounted, power attack, exotic weapon, throwing)
Mage slayer feat tree would be very useful, but the full tree requires 4 feats. You'll need blindfight for pierce magical concealment, but I think it's worth it.
Pierce magical protection will get through various persisted AC boosters (shield, mage armor, luminous armor, whatever else he's got).

If you think you can reliably get the save DC high enough, there's witchslayer from Tome of Magic. It's intended to be anti-binder, but mettle and momentary disjunction both have their place in your bag of tricks. Personally, I think that witchslayer is closer to what Occultslayer should have been. Among other things, OS should get at least mageslayer partway through, if not as a capstone.

Of course, I'm not sure just how much you're willing to do in the way of prestige classes.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 12:01 AM
Of course, I'm not sure just how much you're willing to do in the way of prestige classes.Kind of defeats the purpose of testing the psychic warrior, dunnit?

herrhauptmann
2010-04-23, 01:24 AM
Kind of defeats the purpose of testing the psychic warrior, dunnit?

Well so does ranger dipping. Was there another thread recently posted about melee caster killing where people were debating teh Occult Slayer? I think I fused that one and this in my head...

edit: Found it.

Lycanthromancer
2010-04-23, 01:32 AM
Turn yourself into a girallon dual-wielding lances (each used with two hands), mounted on your flying 12-headed psicrystal hydra with Flyby Attack. If you have the mounted combat feats and psionic lion's charge, just think about what TWF THF lances do when you have a full attack on a Ride-By Attacking charge dealing x3 damage, with Power Attack and Shock Trooper along for the ride.

NeoVid
2010-04-23, 01:56 AM
That's a good point about PrCs...

But despite it, I will recommend one PrC for the purpose of this fight (and for the class in general): Sanctified Mind. Hitting him with the class ability that shuts down power and spell use on the target for d4 turns is certain to make for fun times.

Person_Man
2010-04-23, 09:47 AM
It's also worth mentioning that PvP isn't that good of a measure of what Tier a class belongs in. A Warrior with Leap Attack could theoretically kill an Archivist on the first round of combat (assuming the Warrior wins Initiative and the Archivist hasn't had time to pre-buff). Tiers are about overall power in relation to the types of encounters you will face. It's a general guide for the DM when figuring out how difficult he should make things, and for party members when they choose what classes to play as a group.