A Campaign gone awry (need to vent, in other words.)

[Klyth Manyclaw]

Hello, everyone. Some of you may have read the thread 'should the dm be allowed to ban player violence' earlier today, a short, two-page piece which basically summarized one player of my game's grievances about my campaign. He expressed discontent due to my perceived party favoritism, wanton player killing, and what he considered bad DMing. Looking back on how I've DM'd my campaign so far, I suppose I can say I see where this came from. Until recently, I wasn't aware this was impairing anyone's enjoyment, but looking back, it really should have been obvious. I was a bad DM.

I promised, during my last post in that thread, to tell everyone how our session went. I was under the impression upon posting that, that it would be a simple, one-paragraph summary of the campaign's events, preferably with some feedback from the original poster of that thread on how I could improve further. Unfortunately, things didn't go how I'd planned. In fact, they've gone so horribly wrong from where the plot's path had been that I've decided to quit that game. I suppose one must ask, if I've already made the decision about what I'm going to do in the events I am about to describe, why is it worth posting? Simply put, I need to vent. This hurt.

Before I can begin, a little background is in order. Our group is a High School-age group, with one person a year from becoming a freshman in High School, the majority of the members sophomores, and myself, unfortunately, the only freshman in the group. Our player group at one point consisted of a group that had a fairly decent mixture of people who enjoy hack n' slash, and people who enjoy roleplaying. I attempted to provide a campaign, with what limited DMing skills I had, that provided both. DMing has proved difficult in this campaign due to the general meeting place being the Biology lab for our school, overseen by the biology teacher who on general principle requires strong evidence before she'll allow me to kick anyone from the group. If a certain other player, who's name I won't mention, asks her not to let me kick a person, that person is there to stay. Due to this, I have absolutely no authority. I have no authority in this group. I have gained no respect. I know that respect must be earned, and I know I haven't done a good enough job as DM to obtain it, but my decisions have not been respected, and the other players simply act as if I hadn't said 'No, you may not do that.' If they don't like my ruling. They ignore me until I sit down.

The most major advocate in our group for a roleplaying-themed series of adventures left due to disagreements with some of the other members, leaving one other member and myself as the only two left. The player who's actions I consider the major reason for my resignation brought in a number of his friends, all of whom are fans of hack n' slash. My group went from approximately half and half, to a completely crunch-oriented party. My campaign, unfortunately, was designed around the half-and-half approach, and as such, numerous of the players have called for my resignation as DM, some times only jokingly, others less so. Occasionally one or two would say they enjoyed the roleplaying or wanted more of it, and that kept me going.

Recently, those comments have begun to be few and far between.

Today, during our session, the party was leaving an ancient, magical ice fortress, heading out to do battle with some strange, acid-blooded creatures created by the magics of a dragon-god who's power brought magic in to the world and who's might crushed all free nations, save this one, leaving the world in tangles. The party consisted of a Necromancer, a Psion, a Fighter, a Wizard, and a Barbarian. The Psion was in possession of approximately 60 Astral Constructs, created by him over a 15 day period, and the Necromancer had 48 skeletal minions. The resources for these things were provided by the city. They began the war march, and, within two hours, had made their way to a barren woodlands. It was here, when they began to head back to the city, that I had planned for the first encounter with the beasts to occur. I had designed this adventure partially as a way to attempt to make up to my players for my lousy DMing over the past few sessions. I'll admit I was terrible. I couldn't keep the group on task, and often was redirected from being on task myself. We never got anything done.

The adventure would have featured such things as a battle between the Astral Constructs and the dark forces of the beasts, a puzzle left by a lone mage who worked on these beasts to help find the way to defeat the incredibly powerful matriarch of these monsters, and in the end, a clue as to where an ancient artifact was located, one capable of slaying even gods. Slightly cliche (sorry, I don't know how to make the e accente grue), but my group are usually okay with that, and it seemed the best plot to tie the various story elements together. There were, of course, alternatives to that plan: Full-frontal assault, stealthy elimination of the monsters, take the building the matriarch was in and collapse it... all of these planned out.

As the group emerged from a magical ice wall meant to protect the ancient kingdom in question, the Psion alerted me to an ability he had, which I was unaware of. To the moment I am writing this, I am unsure whether it is even possible, as the Psion resisted heavily my attempts to get him to show me where in the book he could do this, and, being that we were running fluently, and the players weren't going to respect my decision anyway, I went along with it. The Soulshard, capable of traveling 5000ft/second, and taking this Psion along with it. In other words, teleportation. Perfectly reasonable, as they are 12th level, and definitely within the bounds of the encounter, but with no limit and no chance of error, I wanted to be sure. I knew the Wizard hadn't prepared Teleport, and was unsure of whether Psions had that ability or not, so I hadn't factored it in. I began thinking of ways to still fit the battle between the Psion's Astral Constructs and the monster's army in to the adventure; I knew the Psion's player would probably enjoy it, and to be quite honest, -I- was really looking forward to running a small-scale battle, to seeing troops fighting on either side of the PC's in my minds eye and watching them walk through, tearing the monsters asunder as they make their way to the Matriarch.

Then, the Psion's player told me he cast Wish.

Now, I'm sure you can imagine my shock: A ninth level spell, at level 12, from a player who's character isn't even of one of the classes who GETS ninth level spells? Surely, something's wrong. I asked him where he got this ability, and he told me he could choose to place a spell gem in one of his Astral Constructs. I asked to see where this was in the book. The group's response? "We haven't got enough time, can we just get on with the adventure already?"
I allowed it, and he lit the town ablaze. The clue as to the artifact's position was lost, the Matriarch dead, every single one of the beasts under her control now wandering, mindless, killing each other off, thanks to one, horrible wish for divine fire.

I'm not mad, particularly, so much as numb. This campaign represents three months of work, down the toilet, thanks to a single casting of Wish, which basically emulated a Widened, Sculpted Evocation spell. This was the only point so far in the campaign where I'd put my better judgement on the line and said to myself, "They have to find this. They've found everything else they needed, whether it was strictly necessary or not, they should have no problem with this." The clue was, for purposes of plot, an ancient tome, bound with no magic and safely kept away in the border regions of this town, and now, it's ash in the wind, along with any hope the players had of destroying the dragon god and bringing hope to a shattered world. This, in and of itself would have been bad enough...

...but it wasn't the end of my nightmare.

The Psion, upon doing this, laughing with the rest of the group members for ten minutes about it, and letting me stand there and take it with a smile, had one more thing up his sleeve. A full set of campaign notes, freshly printed and ready, sitting in his backpack, despite it being my campaign today. Almost as if he'd known he'd be doing this. This wasn't some spur of the moment, "Oh, I'll try this and see if the DM will let me." He knew I wouldn't have the authority to say no. He knew the other members of the group would back him up against me. He knew that he'd get away with it, and he managed to get them to settle down just in time for him to have a full hour left with which to begin his campaign.

So, to the Psion: I'm not naming names. If you read this thread, which I'm sure you will, consider this my official resignation as the group's DM. I'm not mad at you, nor at any other member of the group. I feel slightly betrayed, but its a game, it'll pass. My only dilemma would be in that I realized, fully, for the first time today, that I have no power as DM of that gaming group, and I know that, if you were in my position, you would. For that environment, you will be a better DM than I possibly can be.

Thanks to every member of my group for putting up with my DMing this long. I'm sorry I've failed you to the point where you viewed this as your last option. More than that, I'm sorry I never got to run that adventure for you all, though I'm sure you continued your session and had a blast. There's no bad blood between us. :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Not sure why you did this publically, email probably would have sufficed...though on second read, the title is a good clue as to why.

Assuming we're getting the whole story, I'm impressed you actually stuck it out this long with people who don't appreciate you and aren't willing to give you the little bit of respect it takes to play.

(Incidentally, don't let this 'Psion' color your opinions as to the values of the Psionics ruleset...I consider myself a hardcore optimizer, and I can see at least three things he did in this session that, off the top of my head, can only be accomplished through blatant cheating).

[Klyth Manyclaw]

There's two sides to every story. I've presented it from what I see the situation as, but I'm sure when said Psion logs on he'll have plenty to say about it. It isn't so much that my abilities weren't appreciated, as they weren't there. It's only been my second campaign ever DMing, and I didn't do an incredibly good job of it. I can understand their frustration. Hence, my resignation.

[Forever Curious]

...this is by far the saddest thing I've read in a while. You have my fullest sympathy (assuming you're being truthful). If it's any consolation, I've found that PbP players in general are a much nicer lot, so perhaps reopening your game on the forums would be a pleasant alternative (I myself would be interested in playing a game like the one you described).

In any event, keep a stiff upper lip. *hugs*

~Forever Curious

[Iceforge]

Reading that, if it is a good insight into how that group runs, I would love to DM for them just once.

There would be hell to pay for that Psion, his character would have died in a matter of minuts after he tried to pull his first little cheat stunt and he wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

And I basicly never kill players in my games, but if they cheat or do something so stupid that it makes no sense that they do not die, then they will die.

If I catch them cheating, as he was, their death will be quick, meaningless and unavoidable, I know the rulesets and the power of the DM seat well enough to make that happen

EDIT: But I think many players has experienced things like this when they first took the DMing chair at a young age (not meant to demean your age, but high school is young in my eyes now), where enjoyment is not the only goal in a game, but also social dynamics will have a huge impact on the situation around the gaming table.

As a DM now, I know plenty of things I did back then, I would not do anymore (like carrying over grudges from outside the game to inside the game) and things I would not stand for while I was DMing the group, that I used to let slip past or go uncontested in order to please various players.

[Tinydwarfman]

The other players are ok with the Psion cheating? :smallmad: That's ****** up. If there's one thing you don't do with friends, it's cheat. Especially when you can be so easily called on it. I mean really.

[Forever Curious]

Reading that, if it is a good insight into how that group runs, I would love to DM for them just once.

There would be hell to pay for that Psion, his character would have died in a matter of minuts after he tried to pull his first little cheat stunt and he wouldn't be able to do anything about it.

And I basicly never kill players in my games, but if they cheat or do something so stupid that it makes no sense that they do not die, then they will die.

If I catch them cheating, as he was, their death will be quick, meaningless and unavoidable, I know the rulesets and the power of the DM seat well enough to make that happen

Damn straight, yo. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

There's two sides to every story. I've presented it from what I see the situation as, but I'm sure when said Psion logs on he'll have plenty to say about it. It isn't so much that my abilities weren't appreciated, as they weren't there. It's only been my second campaign ever DMing, and I didn't do an incredibly good job of it. I can understand their frustration. Hence, my resignation.

Pffft. This isn't frustration, it's players taking advantage of someone less experienced (and apparently younger) to cheat, lie, and abuse/break the rules for their own benefit. You could probably have been writing the epic of Gilgamesh meets Hamlet meets American Gods and they'd still be ignoring you, powertripping over you, and inventing rules and abilities to destroy your adventures with...I remember high school, and it was all about the status ladder. They, being sophomores, can't offer you, a freshman, any authority, or it 'weakens' them.

[Dust]

I read that thoroughly, and have some critiquing as well as sincere sympathies in equal measure - and one suggestions at the very end that I think will solve a good chunk of your problems in the future.
I wouldn't blame you in the slightest if you feel as though you've been picked on enough for one campaign, and you're under no obligation to even glance at any of the following.

The first thing I noticed that struck a :smallconfused: chord with me was this statement.

.....overseen by the biology teacher who on general principle requires strong evidence before she'll allow me to kick anyone from the group.

.....Due to this, I have absolutely no authority. I have no authority in this group. I have gained no respect.
You're right that respect must be earned, but authority certainly has VERY little to do with your ability to add or remove players from your game. Of course there needs to be some cohesion between players, players pushing for a similar goal, but there's something about this statement that shocked me.

I read the other thread, and it also sounds that your combat-intensive GM style helped push your players into feeling as though they needed to min-max.

When it came to your campaign's planning, at least the bit that was laid out, it was indeed very smart work. You get points for pointing out that the puzzle and stealth and other such elements could be bypassed, and then lose those same points when you failed to mention that any of these features of the campaign related to the characters or their players' interests at ALL.

Except you made a fatal flaw, and that was the designing of an adventure for people who you knew wouldn't appreciate it. In such situations, do things on the fly.

You were also DMing for Psion, who, frankly, is one of the ***holes that makes this hobby so painful at times. You have my complete sympathies for dealing with this fellow.


My suggestion is, for the future - not for this group of players, mind, but for the future in general - look into DnD 4e or a new system entirely. 4e boasts combat that is equal parts strategy and hack-and-slash, and allows for roleplaying between attacks whereas 3e has difficulty with that at times, I find. The shiny miniatures and cool-looking grid boards might appeal to new players. It's also very difficult...I would be bold and say nigh-impossible...to 'break the game' as it were with the use of high-level character features.

But like was said above...keep a stiff upper lips. There's loads of us who'd appreciate a DM like you, and the high school biology lab sure isn't the place to let your creativity shine. Try rpol for online games, or even these forums for pbp with like-minded people. And avoid that drama-happy group like the plague.

[jiriku]

Klyth, I feel for you. It must have been frustrating for you to invest so much effort and energy into creating such a good game, only to see it fail like this (and from your description, it was a good game, BTW, don't sell yourself short).

Frankly, I'm surprised that you're so even-tempered about it. These guys have disrespected you and even pushed you around, and while it's unfortunately a common high school experience given the social development of most 12-to-15-year-olds, it's still a pretty lousy way to treat anyone. You've got a lot of class for putting up with it so gracefully; in your situation, I'd probably have given the group quite a tirade before I walked away from the table and didn't come back. (BTW, I hope you don't go back to that group. Trust me, groups like that aren't worth gaming in).

As a longtime DM, I hope you'll consider giving DMing another shot some day with a different group of players in a different environment where you'll receive the support and encouragement you deserve.


P.S. Sorry it had to be under such difficult circumstances, but welcome to the Playground! We're glad to have you here in our community, and we hope you'll come back here again and again to share with us the hobby we all love.

[Severus]

First, let me say that as a 46 year old gamer who started in high school that GMing and playing with high school age folks is really, really hard. Kudos for trying to GM for them. GMing is a learned skill. you do it a lot, and you get better. Everyone, _EVERYONE_ sucks in the beginning.

I don't think that I was particularly different than anyone else at that age and I was a lot more about the winning than about the playing and enjoying and being fair. That makes it twice as hard for a GM because your players are (I'll be charitable) rules lawyers. The players will gang up to badger you to get you to agree to whatever they want. Even great GMs have difficultly with this. Players often don't see that by winning the argument with the GM they break the game itself and everyone loses.

If you can't control the group and can't boot people, you can't GM. Your biology teacher is not helping.

Part of the problem could also be that other folks haven't GMed and have no idea how hard it is to do. I think you're right to step down. I don't think this is an environment that can really work well for you to learn to GM. I'd look for another place to game where you can specifically invite who you want to GM for. If people don't behave, and respect you, they have to leave.

Like Jiriku above says, often one of the best things to do, and the hardest, is to just walk away and go find another game.

Good luck. I remember my AP english teacher to this day. Great woman. Told me when I was in high school, "Everybody says these are the best days of your life. They're lying." She was so, so right.

[Drogorn]

Remember that the work you've done wasn't necessarily wasted. There's no reason you can't repurpose a large portion of it for a later game at some point.

[Greenish]

To play the devil's attorney, this:
Unfortunately, things didn't go how I'd planned. In fact, they've gone so horribly wrong from where the plot's path had been that I've decided to quit that game.makes it sound like you had strict rails for your players, which usually isn't fun.

Anyhow, purposefully cheating to ruin your campaign is worthy of adjectives not allowed on these forums. (Astral Constructs last for 1 round/level, Psionic Teleport requires you to spend a feat to learn it unless you're Nomad [in which case you'd need a feat for Astral Constructs] and has the miss chance, and if a lvl 12 psion can legitimately cast Wish, you can throw DMG at him.) And if you can't say "no" no matter what your players do, you can't really DM.

[Kaun]

My advice, you can't blame a new DM for making some mistakes it is a learning process after all.

You can blame your players for being *******s but it is high school after all.

Dont give up on DMing, just find some diffrent players.

[Trekkin]

Firstly, I congratulate you on a well-written campaign. High-schoolers are frankly not the ones to try well-written campaigns on, as a rule; the best of them should be in college already. If you have to GM for them, suggest Shadowrun; they can be cybered-up engines of destruction and death all they like, die bloodily at the hands of everyone nearby, and repeat. When I GMed in high school I just threw them through club after bar after den, until they actually grew tired of wanton hedonism and playing Grand Theft Auto with dice and wanted to try roleplaying.

This took four years.

For now, try PbP games, if you can't find a group of friends who won't do this to you. You have the makings of a fantastic GM, but it's like an unstoppable force meeting an immovable object here; most high-schoolers just resent authority too much to let a mere student tell them their character can't do that, what with having teachers shoved in their faces day and night. You did the right thing to walk away before it turned nasty.

As a final note, please don't let this taint your appreciation of psionics. We psi-obsessed players are a strange, frequently trying lot (speaking from both sides of the screen here :smallredface:), but so are most casters. The system is sound, and frankly we need all the friendly GMs we can get.

Edit: And who told you he can amass sixty astral constructs? At best, using third-party sources, he's either reduced to level 1 from the XP cost or has a daily PP reserve of two.

[Beowulf DW]

Highschool can be a bitch, although I did hate it less than elementary school.

It doesn't matter how bad or good at DMing you are, Klyth, your players shouldn't have treated you like that.

You did well to take it like that and then walk away.

If it makes you feel any better, that psion is probably about to find out why being in a group like that isn't so nice when he's on the recieving end of crap like that.

[Tinydwarfman]

Highschool can be a bitch, although I did hate it less than elementary school.

It doesn't matter how bad or good at DMing you are, Klyth, your players shouldn't have treated you like that.

You did well to take it like that and then walk away.

If it makes you feel any better, that psion is probably about to find out why being in a group like that isn't so nice when he's on the recieving end of crap like that.

Unless they were just having fun messing with the OP, and wouldn't do the same thing to their actual friend (seems likely considering).

[Emmerask]

That is pretty horrible, and I don´t quite understand the biology teacher a dm needs a certain amount of power (if playing with more or less strangers).
I would have just killed the psion the moment he began with this crap.

yeah a plane wide null psionic field you heard right congrats on being a commoner now :smallsmile: oh and did I mention the Balor lord in front of you?

Anyway the story sounds quite nice I´m sure you´ll find a group of players who appreciates your gm´ing and then you can put that story up again :smallsmile:

[Akal Saris]

Unless they were just having fun messing with the OP, and wouldn't do the same thing to their actual friend (seems likely considering).

That's what I was thinking. It sounds to me like it has very little with the OP's skills as a DM, and everything with the social mechanics of the group. They probably decided that they wanted their friend who got them into the club to lead the game, and were all more or less in on the scheme together.

Which makes them jerks for being so passive-aggressive about getting you out of the picture, but also pretty common in gaming groups, even among older players. I've seen a lot of games devolve in "PCs vs the DM" and really the best thing you can do sometimes is to know when to walk away.

Like others have said, track down the RPers who left the club earlier, or another group of people, and just start a new game or two. Or play D&D online through play-by-post, or just take a break from roleplaying until the summer or college or whatever.

[Mushroom Ninja]

(Incidentally, don't let this 'Psion' color your opinions as to the values of the Psionics ruleset...I consider myself a hardcore optimizer, and I can see at least three things he did in this session that, off the top of my head, can only be accomplished through blatant cheating).

This man speaks the truth. There is no way that I can think of (short of pun-pun or some other complex TO insanity) that a 12th level psion can get wish.

[mikej]

Wall of text crits


He knew the other members of the group would back him up against me. He knew that he'd get away with it

In all do respect, I definetly know how this feels.

Tough luck, eh. Not entirely sure what to say after reading that. Some of the stuff kind of reminds me of what I went through.

Just don't play with them. Or at least until they mature a little bit more. Everyone, including the DM, should be allowed to have fun. Players should respect that. On a relevant note, I never did like the "majority rules" ideal in D&D. If there is five people and one is not enjoying him/herself then the game is going poorly. It's not ignore thier individual's feelings because the other four are having fun. This applies to the DM as well. It's all about balance of enjoyment. From what I read you did an amazing job and has taking this very well. Take this experience and learn from it.

It's not all bad. Every DM makes mistake in the beginning. My first campaign I meseed up with the Deck of Many Things.

[Hyudra]

Rest assured, Klyth, if events are as you say, you didn't get the respect you deserved. Respect is important for DMs because they put, easily, 5x the effort that anyone else does into the game. If nothing else, players need to give DMs the benefit of a doubt as far as authority goes, because failing to do so will cost them a DM.

So maybe they'll get their just desserts when they're having to choose a new DM and the guy who gets picked finds out how hard it is, or they can't get anyone to do the job.

I second the recommendation as far as PbP games go - playing on the web gives you far more control over a great many things, from roleplaying to who is in your game. It takes some adjustment, but it's worthwhile.

[JGoldenberg]

My friend as a Highschool DM (I'm a senior however) I know exactly how you feel. I'm currently on my sixth group, which has about half of the original members because of bad players, destruction of property, etc.

Keep it up though, I found your plotline interesting and think you've got the creativity to make a great DM. Feel free to send a message sometime, I'll give you some methods to really screw with players like that if you ever have the misfortune to run into more of that caliber. :D

[Eldariel]

This man speaks the truth. There is no way that I can think of (short of pun-pun or some other complex TO insanity) that a 12th level psion can get wish.

There are a dozen, but all of them are obviously way beyond what is kosher in a normal game. Simply put, Wish on level 12 is very doable, but it isn't ok. Though from what he explained you, it sounds like he's speaking utter bull****. Because, y'know, what he claimed doesn't exist.

But yeah, save the campaign notes, DM for another group and use them. No point in throwing months of preparation away. In fact, it may be possible to organize sessions outside high school; I'm quite certain things will work better without an overseer.


I hope we'll hear the other side of the story. I really do. I cannot fathom the reason for such behaviour (I played back in high school age and we had a very functional, if not very harmonic, playgroup). Some explanations would probably set things straight, on both sides.

That said, I'm really sorry to hear such an awesome game lead to such a horrible experience for you. It's all in the players, I guess. Lacking authority to state what happens and what does not as a DM really just doesn't work. There needs to be a balance in the table where players may point out certain things to the DM and discuss post-session while what says goes in the table with the DM. This has worked great in our games; there are lots of disagreements and some things get handled wrong but that's never the end of the game.

[absolmorph]

That is pretty horrible, and I don´t quite understand the biology teacher a dm needs a certain amount of power (if playing with more or less strangers).
I would have just killed the psion the moment he began with this crap.

yeah a plane wide null psionic field you heard right congrats on being a commoner now :smallsmile: oh and did I mention the Balor lord in front of you?

Anyway the story sounds quite nice I´m sure you´ll find a group of players who appreciates your gm´ing and then you can put that story up again :smallsmile:
What? No, no, no. Don't do that.
They probably killed a cleric at some point. The cleric's god decided the psion stepped too far.
Life and Death. Instant kill across planar boundaries. By the books.
And no epic spells involved.

That said, the psion crossed a line. He took advantage of your inexperience with the system he was using (I don't think the 60 astral constructs is legal, either) to destroy your campaign. Don't play with that group again. Even if you're a poor DM, they're not worth your time. After all, you're trying to get better.
I hope you can find a different, better group.

[Lost Wanderer]

Look, I hate to be the bad guy here, but I do not believe a word of the OP, except the "getting thrown out" part. You can tell by the eloquence of his writing style; you can smell the "all aboard the plot train!" his game probably was. And notice he never said why the other people that left did so. I would go so far as to venture that he's completely made up the blatantly cheating psion bit to elicit sympathy for something that is solely his fault.

So yeah, I'd like to see loveandwar and deephelldragon (and maybe anyone else from that game who wants to join the forum) tell the actual story of what went down. Because this who piece smacks of begging for sympathy, and as loveandwar already revealed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8353642&postcount=46), the OP is the one largely at fault.

[Forever Curious]

Look, I hate to be the bad guy here, but I do not believe a word of the OP, except the "getting thrown out" part. You can tell by the eloquence of his writing style; you can smell the "all aboard the plot train!" his game probably was. And notice he never said why the other people that left did so. I would go so far as to venture that he's completely made up the blatantly cheating psion bit to elicit sympathy for something that is solely his fault.

So yeah, I'd like to see loveandwar and deephelldragon (and maybe anyone else from that game who wants to join the forum) tell the actual story of what went down. Because this who piece smacks of begging for sympathy, and as loveandwar already revealed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8353642&postcount=46), the OP is the one largely at fault.

Perhaps, perhaps not. But that's the thing with the internet and people in general. *shrug*

Personally, I believe him because the alternative would further degenerate my waning trust of people. Not sure how eloquence of writing hurts his credibility; if anything it's a well-written lament.

Come to think of it, he really has no reason to lie...yet neither does anyone else involved. Hell, this entire affair could be a collaborative effort to incite drama, done purely for kicks.

But...I digress. To each his/her own.

Forever Curious~

[icastflare!]

I personally think you are just fed up.The Psion is pulling so many things out his butt it qualifies as a certified storage center. The fact you lasted this long is a monument to your patience.

[Pluto]

This is why I can't stand playing with people I don't already know, trust and like outside the game room.

Hell is a public RPG.

Don't sweat bad DMing in this context; it's hard to cater to divergent goals, especially without mutual trust or respect within the gaming circle.

It sounds like the game's over. Try to see what you did that went well, what went poorly, remember it for later and maybe try again with a closer group.

[Lost Wanderer]

Hell, this entire affair could be a collaborative effort to incite drama, done purely for kicks.


Damnit, I thought I could extent some sympathy to somebody (if they psion was the real deal, I'd shake his hand for the whole "humiliate and replace" plot and then smack him upside the head for doing it via blatant cheating) in this, but you're right. The juxtaposition of the far more elegant style to the puncutationless uncapitialized one is an especially canny way to engineer sympathy on a forum that values good writing.

You just can't trust anybody on the Internet, can you?

[Tinydwarfman]

{Scrubbed}

[mikej]

{Scrubbed}

[krossbow]

Bad enough we get weekly scheduled "Monk" threads that accomplish nothing.


Is it that time again? *goes and makes "monks are useless/overpowered" thread*

[Doc Roc]

Is it that time again? *goes and makes "monks are useless/overpowered" thread*

Not quite nothing. Normally the OP is eventually satisfied that monks are pretty weak. So you know, save the world, one person at a time.

[Kaun]

Look, I hate to be the bad guy here, but I do not believe a word of the OP, except the "getting thrown out" part. You can tell by the eloquence of his writing style; you can smell the "all aboard the plot train!" his game probably was. And notice he never said why the other people that left did so.

He said it was due to a disagrement with another player.



I would go so far as to venture that he's completely made up the blatantly cheating psion bit to elicit sympathy for something that is solely his fault.

So yeah, I'd like to see loveandwar and deephelldragon (and maybe anyone else from that game who wants to join the forum) tell the actual story of what went down. Because this who piece smacks of begging for sympathy, and as loveandwar already revealed here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8353642&postcount=46), the OP is the one largely at fault.

It does look like a beg for sympathy but then what vents arn't?

+ the post you linked to was the DM stating that he didnt realise he was doing it and that he would try to change things to suit the player in question.

And loveandwar's post didn't really ad anything to that argument either.

[Eldariel]

Not quite nothing. Normally the OP is eventually satisfied that monks are pretty weak. So you know, save the world, one person at a time.

In fact, we have gotten better at this over the years. Early Monk threads tended to be pointless bickering for 20 pages. Now the actual questions are answered and then it becomes pointless bickering for 20 pages. So the OP gets what he wants, his answers, and then the general nonsense can begin.

[Doc Roc]

In fact, we have gotten better at this over the years. Early Monk threads tended to be pointless bickering for 20 pages. Now the actual questions are answered and then it becomes pointless bickering for 20 pages. So the OP gets what he wants, his answers, and then the general nonsense can begin.

And we did the The Monkening out of one of those threads. And that's a pretty great thing. So you know, it's not all tears and bee stings. :0

[Lost Wanderer]

{Scrubbed}

I interpreted "being scared of the rogue" as worrying about him/his character breaking the game (or, more likely, plot) in some way, and if it was the player he was afraid of, it would have said that. Then again, it was from someone who doesn't use punctuation...

In any case, I chose to believe the players over the GM because the GM's post sounds like its begging for sympathy over something that was his own fault, and doing it vilifying the people he wronged. And I think he's a horrible railroader because I've never heard of a 15 year old who was a good writer (and an inexperienced GM to boot) who wasn't a horrible railroader.

[Eldariel]

And we did the The Monkening out of one of those threads. And that's a pretty great thing. So you know, it's not all tears and bee stings. :0

This is true. Still, I daresay 95% of the posts in those threads end up having absolutely no impact whatsoever on anything anywhere, and given how many of those threads we've had, the "pointless bickering" is a rather accurate descriptor for most of it. And a dozen good folk have left us permanently thanks to the banter. But I suppose you're right, if something good comes out of it, it's probably worth bothering about.

[Doc Roc]

{scrubbed}

[mikej]

Is it that time again? *goes and makes "monks are useless/overpowered" thread*

It hasn't been the full 7 days since the start of this last one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149509) At least wait till Sunday :smallwink:

Most Monk threads do answer the original OP's question. It's when someone jumps in with the overuse of one cross-class skill...

[Eldariel]

{Scrubbed}.

Agreed. We should hold a sermon for the people lost in the Monk Wars.

[krossbow]

Whether or not questions are answered in those threads, i go for the pointless bickering alone.:smallbiggrin: makes for great entertainment with popcorn.

[Doc Roc]

Agreed. We should hold a sermon for the people lost in the Monk Wars.

Well, I do normally note down a few words of respect here or there, but really, we should all get together for drinks sometime. UnMonkCon? ;)

[Kaun]

Whether or not questions are answered in those threads, i go for the pointless bickering alone.:smallbiggrin: makes for great entertainment with popcorn.

Gives me something to do at work thats for sure :smallamused:

[Thajocoth]

"The most major advocate in our group for a roleplaying-themed series of adventures left"

Your old group's not what you need. Perhaps try to find this person again, and see if you can get some friends of either of you to join in for something you'll both enjoy more.

[mikej]

Whether or not questions are answered in those threads, i go for the pointless bickering alone.:smallbiggrin: makes for great entertainment with popcorn.

Since we're now on this topic. Has anyone noticed we don't get many Druid/Cleric threads anymore. Surely, it's not always about Monk/Fighter vs Wizard.

[Forever Curious]

And I think he's a horrible railroader because I've never heard of a 15 year old who was a good writer (and an inexperienced GM to boot) who wasn't a horrible railroader.

How many 15 year olds who are good writers (and inexperienced GMs) do you know? Not nice to assume things.


Whether or not questions are answered in those threads, i go for the pointless bickering alone. makes for great entertainment with popcorn.

Agreed. Trivial bickering amuses me to know end.

[The Glyphstone]

Arguing if Druids are OP is like arguing if ocean water is salty. Sure, there's a good case that the Dead Sea is also salty, but it doesn't make it an ocean.



Frankly, I'm amazed at a few of the posters here...one person types out a long, involved, and eloquent explanation of how miserable his gaming group situation is. Another person, reportedly a player, 'counters' with "hes lying", and this is taken as gospel truth to invalidate the OP? Shame on you, interwebs....if loveandwar (who i suspect is "Psion") wants to defend himself and his group, he can post more than one sentence devoid of punctuation. In the meantime, though...

*makes popcorn*

let the dramas commence.

[Math_Mage]

Arguing if Druids are OP is like arguing if ocean water is salty. Sure, there's a good case that the Dead Sea is also salty, but it doesn't make it an ocean.

...Wait, what? :smallconfused: Your analogy, it does not analogize properly.

[JGoldenberg]

Arguing if Druids are OP is like arguing if ocean water is salty. Sure, there's a good case that the Dead Sea is also salty, but it doesn't make it an ocean.



Frankly, I'm amazed at a few of the posters here...one person types out a long, involved, and eloquent explanation of how miserable his gaming group situation is. Another person, reportedly a player, 'counters' with "hes lying", and this is taken as gospel truth to invalidate the OP? Shame on you, interwebs....if loveandwar (who i suspect is "Psion") wants to defend himself and his group, he can post more than one sentence devoid of punctuation. In the meantime, though...

*makes popcorn*

let the dramas commence.

I'm going to have to agree with Glyphstone, I'm guessing LoveandWar is either the Psion or one of his friends.

(Also, what kind of popcorn is that? I'd lose respect if it was those weird flavoured ones their coming out with now like Vinegar and Cheese and that crap. Give me Extra buttery or give me death!)

[Mushroom Ninja]

let the dramas commence.

Man, I'm so glad my group and I get along so well. I'd hate to have to go through what the OP and his group are dealing with.

[The Glyphstone]

...Wait, what? :smallconfused: Your analogy, it does not analogize properly.

...you know, I don't have a clue what I was trying to say there either.:smallconfused: Other than that Druids are OP, I guess?

As for the popcorn, let's put it this way: I like my butter to have just a hint of popcorn flavoring.

[Magic Myrmidon]

Yay, Drama.

And, OP... you're a freshman. In highschool. They get treated badly. Don't take it personal.

[JGoldenberg]

...you know, I don't have a clue what I was trying to say there either.:smallconfused: Other than that Druids are OP, I guess?

As for the popcorn, let's put it this way: I like my butter to have just a hint of popcorn flavoring.

Complete opposite on the Paizo boards, bunch of people always complaining about how the Druids got shafted.

And perfect Glyphstone, nice to see someone shares my opinion. I live in a healthnut family, I'd be lucky if I could even get access to the butter without being accused of trying to make my heart burst before I'm 20.

[Tinydwarfman]

I interpreted "being scared of the rogue" as worrying about him/his character breaking the game (or, more likely, plot) in some way, and if it was the player he was afraid of, it would have said that. Then again, it was from someone who doesn't use punctuation...

In any case, I chose to believe the players over the GM because the GM's post sounds like its begging for sympathy over something that was his own fault, and doing it vilifying the people he wronged. And I think he's a horrible railroader because I've never heard of a 15 year old who was a good writer (and an inexperienced GM to boot) who wasn't a horrible railroader.

I can't really imagine a situation where the DM and players are on equal grounds, and the DM is afraid of a player wrecking the game IC. Especially to the extent that the problem player has another player under his "protection" I mean, does that kind of thing happen in any games you've played in?

Meh, people feel the need to rant. It might be emotionally skewed (in fact I'm sure it is), but it's fairly logical if he has no one else to talk to about it.

I hate to use myself and my friends as an example, but we all started playing at about 14, and at 15 we were DMing small adventures for each other. I consider myself a reasonably good writer (write novellas for school projects and such), and I think it's fairly easy to be both a good DM and writer. You just have to completely separate the two parts. We figured that out pretty quickly. It helps to begin by GMing a few modules or improving campaigns. It's definitely possible he is terrible rail-roader though. One of my friend's original campaign ideas was an adventure centered entirely around a DMPC :smallbiggrin:.

[krossbow]

...you know, I don't have a clue what I was trying to say there either.:smallconfused: Other than that Druids are OP, I guess?

As for the popcorn, let's put it this way: I like my butter to have just a hint of popcorn flavoring.


Popcorn: Though it may appear flavorless at first, If you put butter and salt on it, it'll taste like... butter and salt! :smalltongue: Mankind's Greatest triumph over adversity, imo.

[Eldariel]

Complete opposite on the Paizo boards, bunch of people always complaining about how the Druids got shafted.

Paizo boards...heh...

Well, anyways, I guess people are thinking for themselves removing the need for Druid-threads for now.


Popcorn: Though it may appear flavorless at first, If you put butter and salt on it, it'll taste like... butter and salt! :smalltongue: Mankind's Greatest triumph over adversity, imo.

I've found if you put enough salt to anything, it'll take delicious.

[Forever Curious]

One of my friend's original campaign idea's was an adventure centered entirely around a DMPC :smallbiggrin:.

Been there, done that. The result: a horrible farce of a campaign where the party WAKING UP IN HELL and my character (5th level Tiefling cleric, first character I ever made) riding around on a Huge gelatinous cube.

[Math_Mage]

I'm going to have to agree with Glyphstone, I'm guessing LoveandWar is either the Psion or one of his friends.

Looking at LoveandWar's previous posts, I would certainly agree. He seemed bent on having revenge on a DM who he accused of killing players to screw with them. His plan in those posts was to create a campaign wherein he would have the opportunity to kill the DM's player (among others) to screw with him; I would not be surprised if he took this more direct action instead.

EDIT: Heh, deephelldragon came around the Playground about a week ago asking for help building a lvl 13 Psion. That's not the only detail that doesn't match (the party mentioned was 2 Fighters, a Rogue ("thief"), and a "combat medic", rather than Fighter-Wizard-Rogue-Barbarian), but it's close enough to make me suspicious.

[JGoldenberg]

Paizo boards...heh...

Well, anyways, I guess people are thinking for themselves removing the need for Druid-threads for now.



I've found if you put enough salt to anything, it'll take delicious.

I found the fix better, I know way too many Munchkins who took advantage of it, now they're still beating everyone over the head with wild shape, but the other players get chances to shine, and they finally use spells for once!

And you're quite right about the salt, another thing the healthnuts in my family freak out about. Geez, do they not get that Geeks need to have unhealthy diets? It's high energy for those long gaming sessions where your players are taking your campaign and completely ruining it in a (hopefully) awesome way.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I've found if you put enough salt to anything, it'll take delicious.

Anything? (http://northphoenixagent.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/ice-cream-complicated-cone.jpg)

words-words-words sword-sword-sword drows-drows-drows

[JGoldenberg]

Looking at LoveandWar's previous posts, I would certainly agree. He seemed bent on having revenge on a DM who he accused of killing players to screw with them. His plan in those posts was to create a campaign wherein he would have the opportunity to kill the DM's player (among others) to screw with him; I would not be surprised if he took this more direct action instead.

Ah, it's reasons like that, which make me happy my group are all too lazy to want to DM, it allows me to get away with being an evil GM without repercussions.


Anything? (http://northphoenixagent.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/ice-cream-complicated-cone.jpg)

words-words-words sword-sword-sword drows-drows-drows

If those nuts are salted, then yes.
They better be <_< Salted Nuts are awesome.

[Eldariel]

I found the fix better, I know way too many Munchkins who took advantage of it, now they're still beating everyone over the head with wild shape, but the other players get chances to shine, and they finally use spells for once!

Their Polymorph fix was decent, but the loss of individuality between the forms was a bit much for me. Wildshape in Core is obviously too powerful as is the whole Polymorph-line, but I don't think their fix is the most elegant. Mostly though, my experience with the Paizo forums as far as discussing balance or mechanics in general is concerned is the reason for my chuckling.


Anything? (http://northphoenixagent.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/ice-cream-complicated-cone.jpg)

Sure, why not? The taste of salt is awesome so adding enough salt to anything makes it taste like only salt and thus awesome.

[awa]

I think the complaints of railroading are silly now my understanding of railroading would have involved the dm saying i have an anti psionic version of teleport field in effect so you are required to walk and go through my encounters, and the big bad has an anti wish shield so your spell doesn't work or something similar.

The dm allowed what appear to be illegal actions even though they absolutely destroyed his campaign that's not what i call railroading.

And seriously he railroads becuase he has good grammar i guess that means i must be incapable of railroading and you can tell just by looking at my grammar.

[Forever Curious]

Looking at LoveandWar's previous posts, I would certainly agree. He seemed bent on having revenge on a DM who he accused of killing players to screw with them. His plan in those posts was to create a campaign wherein he would have the opportunity to kill the DM's player (among others) to screw with him; I would not be surprised if he took this more direct action instead.

...*put's 2 and 2 together* OH, THAT GUY!

...yeah, he strikes me as a very not credible person. but we'll see if he cares enough to post anything again. *munches on Skittles*

[Eldariel]

...*put's 2 and 2 together* OH, THAT GUY!

...yeah, he strikes me as a very not credible person. but we'll see if he cares enough to post anything again. *munches on Skittles*

This is an interesting point actually, to people who consider grammar and punctuation irrelevant. Not only does proper grammar make one's posts actually comprehensible, it also helps people trust them and take one seriously. Makes you wonder why some people simply don't bother...

[Tinydwarfman]

Mostly though, my experience with the Paizo forums as far as discussing balance or mechanics in general is concerned is the reason for my chuckling.

Heh, I know. I still can't believe a lead designer said that exotic weapons shouldn't be more powerful than martial ones. Boggles the mind.

[WarKitty]

High school drama + dungeons and dragons...yeah. Sounds like a classic case of failure to leave personal drama out of the game. Not that that's unique to high school...

[JGoldenberg]

This is an interesting point actually, to people who consider grammar and punctuation irrelevant. Not only does proper grammar make one's posts actually comprehensible, it also helps people trust them and take one seriously. Makes you wonder why some people simply don't bother...

Because they stopped giving grammar and spelling lessons in english class before junior high. It's becoming a dying talent these days.

[mikej]

GiTP forums: " You come here for the advice. Stay for the drama"

[Emmerask]

I interpreted "being scared of the rogue" as worrying about him/his character breaking the game (or, more likely, plot) in some way, and if it was the player he was afraid of, it would have said that. Then again, it was from someone who doesn't use punctuation...

In any case, I chose to believe the players over the GM because the GM's post sounds like its begging for sympathy over something that was his own fault, and doing it vilifying the people he wronged. And I think he's a horrible railroader because I've never heard of a 15 year old who was a good writer (and an inexperienced GM to boot) who wasn't a horrible railroader.


So, you assume that he is a bad railroader, because you have never met a 15year old who isn´t. How many 15 year old Dm´s do you know?
From that assumption you jump directly to the conclusion that the players are right and the dm is bad :smallannoyed:
And you even congratulate the psion on breaking the Campaign? I mean wth, think before you write :smallmad:

[Eldariel]

Because they stopped giving grammar and spelling lessons in english class before junior high. It's becoming a dying talent these days.

So we foreigners are actually better off in that regard. How quaint.

[JGoldenberg]

Heh, I know. I still can't believe a lead designer said that exotic weapons shouldn't be more powerful than martial ones. Boggles the mind.

The spiked chain nerf bugged me, I'll admit that. I tend to lurk more than I post on the boards though, I've seen a bit of what you guys are talking about.

[JGoldenberg]

So we foreigners are actually better off in that regard. How quaint.

It's a sad day when people who have English as a second language have a better grasp than native speakers, isn't it?

[Math_Mage]

...*put's 2 and 2 together* OH, THAT GUY!

...yeah, he strikes me as a very not credible person. but we'll see if he cares enough to post anything again. *munches on Skittles*

Yeah, uh, look at what I added in from seeing Deephelldragon's posting history. On the same day, he asked for help making a psion and making a new campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149028). That was about a week ago. Of course, as you recall, Loveandwar was asking for campaign advice about a week earlier... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148504)

[absolmorph]

Looking at LoveandWar's previous posts, I would certainly agree. He seemed bent on having revenge on a DM who he accused of killing players to screw with them. His plan in those posts was to create a campaign wherein he would have the opportunity to kill the DM's player (among others) to screw with him; I would not be surprised if he took this more direct action instead.

EDIT: Heh, deephelldragon came around the Playground about a week ago asking for help building a lvl 13 Psion. That's not the only detail that doesn't match (the party mentioned was 2 Fighters, a Rogue ("thief"), and a "combat medic", rather than Fighter-Wizard-Rogue-Barbarian), but it's close enough to make me suspicious.
:smalleek:
I really hope you meant "DM's character", 'cause that's going further than anyone I know would. And I know some pretty extreme people.

[krossbow]

Anything? (http://northphoenixagent.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/ice-cream-complicated-cone.jpg)

words-words-words sword-sword-sword drows-drows-drows
http://www.recipezaar.com/recipe/Sea-Salt-Ice-Cream-177919

Hey, Sea-salt icecream is apparently incredibly good. Heck, the kingdom hearts designer became nigh obssessed with it and crammed references to it into the second game



Yeah, uh, look at what I added in from seeing Deephelldragon's posting history. On the same day, he asked for help making a psion and making a new campaign. That was about a week ago. Of course, as you recall, Loveandwar was asking for campaign advice about a week earlier...


Oh god, THOSE trainwrecks of Threads. Man, reading those posts makes my eyes bleed.

[Forever Curious]

Yeah, uh, look at what I added in from seeing Deephelldragon's posting history. On the same day, he asked for help making a psion and making a new campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149028). That was about a week ago. Of course, as you recall, Loveandwar was asking for campaign advice about a week earlier... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148504)

Huh, interesting...*goes to read and stumbles headlong into text wall*

...by the powers. Let's hope he speaks better than he types. *shudders* And talk about railroading! :smallfurious:

[JGoldenberg]

Oh god, THOSE trainwrecks of Threads. God, reading those posts makes my eyes bleed.

Oh no I remember them, I couldn't get past the 2nd line.

[Eldariel]

It's a sad day when people who have English as a second language have a better grasp than native speakers, isn't it?

Aye, though I've seen enough natives with such a sublime command of the language that I'd rather believe it's more about people bothering than about an actual lack of capability. This forum, for example, tends to enjoy very high readability overall as a function of the posts' coherence, grammar and focus.

Now, the coherence of the threads is of course an entirely different matter, but luckily enough that does not truly disrupt the readability thanks to the quote system.

[Tinydwarfman]

Yeah, uh, look at what I added in from seeing Deephelldragon's posting history. On the same day, he asked for help making a psion and making a new campaign (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=149028). That was about a week ago. Of course, as you recall, Loveandwar was asking for campaign advice about a week earlier... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148504)

... wow... I have never seen such a horrendous wall of text. It also strikes me as odd that he never takes anyone's advice. He literally just re-posted his first version.

[JGoldenberg]

Aye, though I've seen enough natives with such a sublime command of the language that I'd rather believe it's more about people bothering than about an actual lack of capability. This forum, for example, tends to enjoy very high readability overall as a function of the posts' coherence, grammar and focus.

Now, the coherence of the threads is of course an entirely different matter, but luckily enough that does not truly disrupt the readability thanks to the quote system.

I love the lack of coherence of the threads, you can tell it's a D&D orientated forum because we always go right off the OPs topic, we're hardwired to derail anything.

[Touchy]

Well atleast you HAVE people who play DnD at your high school... :smallsigh:

[krossbow]

There's a method to the madness, if you know where to look :smallbiggrin:

Despite the derailing, one can find a large amount of accomplished theorycrafting and advice in many of the threads on this board. Just you have to be equally insane as the other posters to understand :smalltongue:

[JGoldenberg]

There's a method to the madness, if you know where to look :smallbiggrin:

Despite the derailing, one can find a large amount of accomplished theorycrafting and advice in many of the threads on this board. Just you have to be equally insane as the other posters to understand :smalltongue:

The majority of us spend hours in basements pretending to be Elves and Dwarves, I think insanity is a requirement for the game, let alone understanding the board.

[mikej]

The majority of us spend hours in basements pretending to be Elves and Dwarves, I think insanity is a requirement for the game, let alone understanding the board.

What if I pretend being a Human Commoner?
Does that mean I visualize myself?

[Forever Curious]

What if I pretend being a Human Commoner?
Does that mean I visualize myself?

Not unless you can be killed by a house cat. If that's the case, then yes. :smallbiggrin:

[JGoldenberg]

What if I pretend being a Human Commoner?
Does that mean I visualize myself?

Minus the comfy home, internet, and food and place yourself in a dirt farm? Sure!

[Melayl]

To the OP:

Well, it sounds like your experience sucked. As many others have said, "that's high school." Don't fret too much about it. Everybody has a hard time with their first experiences as DM. It sounds as if the group dynamic didn't make anything easier. I'd add another nod to finding the players that left the group before, and gaming with them instead.

And remember, high school only lasts 4 years. After that, your life really begins.

Keep playing, and keep DMing.

[Kaun]

... wow... I have never seen such a horrendous wall of text. It also strikes me as odd that he never takes anyone's advice. He literally just re-posted his first version.

Yeah he seems to have the whole story maped out, he just needs some "Players" there to see how awesome it is.

I know when ever i use the "NPC will beat you up if you dont do what he says approach" my players automaticly start trying to kill said NPC in what ever ways possible.

Infact i have used this tactic a few times just to prevoke such a response.

[Doc Roc]

The majority of us spend hours in basements pretending to be Elves and Dwarves, I think insanity is a requirement for the game, let alone understanding the board.

I hate this portrayal of gamers a lot, and I'm getting thoroughly tired of people suggesting I'm crazy for finding these games fun.

[Forever Curious]

I hate this portrayal of gamers a lot, and I'm getting thoroughly tired of people suggesting I'm crazy for finding these games fun.

"Crazy" is a relative term. "Abnormal" would possibly be more accurate.

[mikej]

Poking fun aside. I think this thread as been derailed of it's original purpose. At least until either the OP or when one his friends posts.

[JGoldenberg]

I hate this portrayal of gamers a lot, and I'm getting thoroughly tired of people suggesting I'm crazy for finding these games fun.

Because the internet strips away all but text, I'll point out that it was very tongue in cheek. And I prefer being called insane for finding D&D fun, than being called a Satanist, Eternal Virgin, Gay, etc. And really, the most fun players are always a tad eccentric, otherwise they wouldn't come up with such devilishly stupid yet successful ideas.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked. Apparently external baggage between posters being fought out on the forum. Then some wonderful calling other posters trolls and other assorted rules violations.