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Exterminatus
2010-04-22, 07:26 PM
Besides getting improved critical/keen, what other ways are there to get a high crit range in 3.5?

Mongoose87
2010-04-22, 07:30 PM
Disciple of Dispaater - the only one that stacks.

Morithias
2010-04-22, 07:32 PM
Disciple of Dispaater - the only one that stacks.

Exactly.

Now add the Greathammer from MM IV with it's 19-20 x4, and at level i think 14, you'll have a 13-20 x4 weapon. If you have improved crit.

I think one of the classes in sword and fist stacks too. Making it 11-20 x5.

Samb
2010-04-22, 07:34 PM
There has been a thread for this before, I'll see if I can dig it up but I recall it being quite wide, like 5-20.

There was a feat from CPsi that let's you expend you psi focus to auto confirm your crit threat. Having linked hustles will make for very short fights.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-22, 07:44 PM
Start at 18-20

Upgrade to 15-20 with imp critical/keen.

Double that with Disciple of Dispater.

9-20.

Grab kaorti resin, and it's 9-20, x4.

JaronK
2010-04-22, 07:51 PM
There's also a Barb 7 substitution in cityscape that boosts your crit range by 1. A Barbarian 7/Disciple of Dispater 8 with kukris can actually manage a 11-20 critical threat range. Now throw in Blood in the Water, Aptitude Enfeebling Kukris, and the feat in Libris Mortis that shakes everyone who sees you crit and you should be good to go.

JaronK

Foryn Gilnith
2010-04-22, 07:54 PM
There's also a Barb 7 substitution in cityscape that boosts your crit range by 1

More specifically, one of the Cityscape web enhancements. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)

Glimbur
2010-04-22, 08:23 PM
Start at 18-20

Upgrade to 15-20 with imp critical/keen.

Double that with Disciple of Dispater.

9-20.

Grab kaorti resin, and it's 9-20, x4.

Kaorti resin isn't a metal. Disciple of Dispater works only with metal weapons.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 08:52 PM
There is also psionic weapon master which i belive is not 3.0.

3.5 legal i think the only way is through psionic weapon master.

demidracolich
2010-04-22, 08:58 PM
There is a maneuver from The Demented One's oncoming storm discipline called storm's edge that doubles your threat range, lasts for 5 rounds, and you can instantly discharge it to confirm a crit.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-22, 09:28 PM
Actualy I think i found a cool build doesn't blosem till late but.
fire Elf
Barbarian 7 /ardent 3/ champion of corrilion 2/ Weapon master 7/psiwarrior 1
ACF's:
Ferocity,
Lion totem,
streat fighter


barb 7/champion 2/ardent 1/psiwarrior1/ardent 1/ Weapon master 7/x 1
1 Dodge
3 combat expertise
6 mounted combat
9 PA
9Champ Bonus: Mobility
10ardent bonus: conflict mantel weapon focus(courtblade)
11psiwarrior: practiced manifester(ardent)
12 psionic weapon
15 Improved crit(courtblade)
18

17 bab

you need atleast a 13 in wis, str and dex as high as you can.
int of 13 for expertise (fire elves +2 int so shouldn;'t be hard)

using Keen crystal court blade

Court blade 18-20
weapon master 17-20
Charging or opponite flat footed 16-20
imrpoved crit 11-20

Remember we choose stacking order.

So
3.5 legal
+4 str/+4 dex
Dex to damage
PA some decent feats.

with a 32 pint by
15,15,14,11,13,10
After elf stats and leveling stats
18,18,12,13,14,8

while raging
22,22,12,13,14,8


Base damage while raging and charging

1d10+9 str + 6 dex + 1 magic wapon (base) +1 focus
1d10+17 plus pa 11-20


math may be off.


Edit: forgot psionic weapon master works with improved crit added it to build to make it work correctly.

herrhauptmann
2010-04-22, 10:56 PM
Start at 18-20
Upgrade to 15-20 with imp critical/keen.
Double that with Disciple of Dispater.
9-20.
Grab kaorti resin, and it's 9-20, x4.

Umm, you know that in D&D math, doubling a double is a triple right? So imp crit or keen, stacked with Disciple of Dispater, gets you a crit range of 9 (12-20).
And as stated, Dispater doesn't stack with Kaorti resin, because it requires metal weapons only. On the plus side with Dispater, you're not totally SOL if your main weapon gets sundered, you just need another metal weapon.

OldTrees
2010-04-22, 11:21 PM
Umm, you know that in D&D math, doubling a double is a triple right? So imp crit or keen, stacked with Disciple of Dispater, gets you a crit range of 9 (12-20).
And as stated, Dispater doesn't stack with Kaorti resin, because it requires metal weapons only. On the plus side with Dispater, you're not totally SOL if your main weapon gets sundered, you just need another metal weapon.


Disciple of Dispater has +200% critical threat range
The math is correct x2+x3=x4

2xMachina
2010-04-23, 01:40 AM
I prefer to see it as:

+100% + 200% = +300%
x2 + x3 = x4

But, now, it makes sense mathematically.

Morithias
2010-04-23, 04:13 AM
It's actually more that it's all treated off the base number.

E.g Improved crit doubles the base, so it increases the base by one.

Dispater at level 8 triples the base so it increase the base by two.

but the base doesn't actually change, so it becomes

New base = 1 + 1 + 2 (Base + improved + dispater)

Baron Malkar
2010-04-23, 04:40 AM
And as stated, Dispater doesn't stack with Kaorti resin, because it requires metal weapons only. On the plus side with Dispater, you're not totally SOL if your main weapon gets sundered, you just need another metal weapon.

Actually its Iron not just any metal. No Adamantine. No Silver. Cold Iron is iffy.:smallyuk:

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 06:14 AM
The 3.0 Weapon Master class is also useful, providing another staking expansion. Technically, it was updated into the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master, but that was clearly someone not paying attention - the Exotic Weapon Master is a completely different class, and is actually an update to the 3.0 Exotic Weapon master from a different book to the Weapon Master. I think that the Oriental Adventures Kensai may be essentially the same as the Weapon Master, though.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 06:20 AM
The 3.0 Weapon Master class is also useful, providing another staking expansion. Technically, it was updated into the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master, but that was clearly someone not paying attention - the Exotic Weapon Master is a completely different class, and is actually an update to the 3.0 Exotic Weapon master from a different book to the Weapon Master. I think that the Oriental Adventures Kensai may be essentially the same as the Weapon Master, though.

I belive there was an article saying that weapon master was split into exotic weapon master and kensi.(edit: from c. warrior)

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 06:27 AM
No, the Complete Warrior Kensai is also completely different from the Weapon Master. They have nothing in common. I haven't actually read the OA Kensai, but I've heard it's essentially the Weapon Master.

Kaiyanwang
2010-04-23, 06:39 AM
No, the Complete Warrior Kensai is also completely different from the Weapon Master. They have nothing in common. I haven't actually read the OA Kensai, but I've heard it's essentially the Weapon Master.

The OAdv (and S&F) Weapon Master is the Kensei. Look for the Psionic Weapon Master, is very similar, barring, of course, psionic powers.


I belive there was an article saying that weapon master was split into exotic weapon master and kensi.(edit: from c. warrior)

Yes, this is the official position in WotC site. But, at this point, one should explain to me the existence of psionic weapon master.

2xMachina
2010-04-23, 06:40 AM
Disciple of Dispater says Iron or Steel.

Now, maybe if we made Kaorti + iron steel? Steel, is after all, Iron + Carbon.

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 06:40 AM
The Psionic Weapon Master requires crystal weapons, though, meaning you can't stack it with DoD.

2xMachina
2010-04-23, 06:44 AM
Again, bring in RL science.

Iron is a crystal.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 07:26 AM
The Psionic Weapon Master requires crystal weapons, though, meaning you can't stack it with DoD.

This is correct.
Though DOD isn't 3.5

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 07:30 AM
Actually, technically, it is. All 3.0 stuff is compatible and allowable in 3.5 games unless it has been reprinted. I don't know if the BoVD has an official update document, but it's easy enough to do.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 07:33 AM
Actually, technically, it is. All 3.0 stuff is compatible and allowable in 3.5 games unless it has been reprinted. I don't know if the BoVD has an official update document, but it's easy enough to do.

By RAW I agree..
Though i just know alot of gms don't allow it.

Baron Malkar
2010-04-23, 07:33 AM
Edit: I was mistaken. Move along. Move along.:smalltongue:

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 07:36 AM
No, he's right. Book of Vile Darkness is very late 3.0. Book of Exalted Deeds is very early 3.5.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-23, 07:43 AM
Crysteel. Can't remember the source, but it's treated as both metal and crystal.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-23, 07:45 AM
All 3.0 stuff is compatible and allowable in 3.5 games unless it has been reprinted.
No, that's not what the rules say at all. For instance, here's a list of 3.0 Feats, Prestige Classes, and Spells (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x) with many of them listing their official 3.5 replacements. You'll note that the 3.0 Weapon Master, Exotic Weapon Master, and Master of Chains PrCs are all replaced by the 3.5 Exotic Weapon Master. You cannot use the Weapon Master or Master of Chains in a 3.5 game, despite these never being revised.

You've got to follow the actual rules, and "allowable unless reprinted" is your house rule, not the RAW.

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 07:51 AM
No, that rule is exactly what I was referring to. I have no idea why they claim that Weapon Master and Master of Chains were reprinted as the Exotic Weapon master, but they do, and thus you cannot use the originals by RAW. It's retarded, but there you go. Disciple of Dispater has no such reprinting, and thus is fair game.

Tytalus
2010-04-23, 07:57 AM
These threads come up every now an then. It basically boils down to this:

Crit range improvements:

Keen, Improved Critical (don't stack with each other)
Disciple of Dispater (stacks only with Improved Crit, restricted to iron and steel weapons). Note that DoD is 3.0 and the crit stacking rules have changed in 3.5. In lieu of an official update, DMs might disallow the triple stacking and reduce it to double stacking. However, it's still fine by the rules.
Psychic Weapon Master (grants +2 if you have Improved Crit already, applies after thread range multiplication, "Improved Critical: The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits.")
Cityscape Web Enhancement Barbarian ACF (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) (grants +1 while charging). It's not entirely clear if it applies before or after multiplication (ability only says it "stacks with the Improved Critical feat or the keen weapon enhancement", but not how). It stands to reason that situational bonuses like this one apply to the current threat range (i.e., including multiplication by keen/etc.) and thus should probably apply after multiplication, but talk to your DM.
Third-party rules and house-rules.


(Very) Common mistakes:


Keen and Improved Critical doesn't stack. Keen and Disciple of Dispater doesn't stack (only Improved Critical does)
Psychic Weapon Master's +2 crit range is applied before multiplication
A combination of Kaorti Resin weapon, Disciple of Dispater, or Psychic Weapon Master is suggested (the three are mutually exclusive)
Double doublings are not counted as triplings.
Suggesting the 3.0 Weapon Master (it was officially updated in CW's Exotic Weapon Master. No, it doesn't make much sense, but that's how it is.



Start at 18-20

Upgrade to 15-20 with imp critical/keen.

Double that with Disciple of Dispater.


DoD only stacks with Improved Critical, not Keen.


There's also a Barb 7 substitution in cityscape that boosts your crit range by 1. A Barbarian 7/Disciple of Dispater 8 with kukris can actually manage a 11-20 critical threat range. Now throw in Blood in the Water, Aptitude Enfeebling Kukris, and the feat in Libris Mortis that shakes everyone who sees you crit and you should be good to go.


With Improved Critical, the build should have a threat range of 8-20. DoD 8 triples the threat range and stacks with Improved Crit.



barb 7/champion 2/ardent 1/psiwarrior1/ardent 1/ Weapon master 7/x 1
1 Dodge
3 combat expertise
6 mounted combat
9 PA
9Champ Bonus: Mobility
10ardent bonus: conflict mantel weapon focus(courtblade)
11psiwarrior: practiced manifester(ardent)
12 psionic weapon
15
18

using Keen crystal court blade

Court blade 18-20
weapon master 17-20
Charging or opponite flat footed 16-20
Keen 11-20

Remember we choose stacking order.


Doesn't work. Without Improved Crit, PWM would just give you that feat, and not the +2 threat range. Improved Crit and Keen don't stack, so you wouldn't get anything out of PWM.

In general, you can choose stacking order of bonuses, but in this case you can't. The PWM bonus is in addition to an already extended (through Improved Crit) threat range.

The Barbarian bonus also shouldn't be multiplied, but that's not entirely clear in the rules.

Curmudgeon
2010-04-23, 08:05 AM
No, that rule is exactly what I was referring to. I have no idea why they claim that Weapon Master and Master of Chains were reprinted as the Exotic Weapon master, but they do, and thus you cannot use the originals by RAW. It's retarded, but there you go. Disciple of Dispater has no such reprinting, and thus is fair game.
OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. Still, that only makes it fair game for your DM to make minor adjustments to.
This is an upgrade of the d20 System, not a new edition of the game. This revision is compatible with all existing products, and those products can be used with the revision with only minor adjustments. And it's perfectly fair for your DM to say that because of the way Improved Critical was changed from 3.0 to 3.5 rules, Iron Power no longer stacks with it; that's a minor adjustment.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 08:09 AM
Doesn't work. Without Improved Crit, PWM would just give you that feat, and not the +2 threat range. Improved Crit and Keen don't stack, so you wouldn't get anything out of PWM.

In general, you can choose stacking order of bonuses, but in this case you can't. The PWM bonus is in addition to an already extended (through Improved Crit) threat range.

The Barbarian bonus also shouldn't be multiplied, but that's not entirely clear in the rules.
I agree forgot about needing improved crit which you could take at level 15 and still have my build works.

I disagree with you about the psionic weapon master stacking afterward.

the line is:

The psychic weapon master gains the Improved Critical feat for free. If she already possesses this feat, add an additional +2 to her weapon of choice's threat range for critical hits.
there is nothing about which is applied first. So you may under the rules stack it as you see fit.

We have had arguments about this before on the forums.

Heliomance
2010-04-23, 11:00 AM
Except you have to take Improved Critical before getting that ability, or you already have Improved Critical and can't take it again.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 11:04 AM
Except you have to take Improved Critical before getting that ability, or you already have Improved Critical and can't take it again.

right but the stacking rules don't care about the order in which you recive a bonus unless there the same. This ability is a conditional one.
If you have imrpoved crit, increase the weapons crit range by +2.
It doesn't say increase the modified crit range by 2.

Samb
2010-04-23, 01:49 PM
The problem I see with psionic weapon master is that they use crystal weapons not iron/steel ones. Maybe psysteel can count as both?

It would be awesome if you could be like Sechs from battle angel. Crystalized titanium ftw.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 01:56 PM
The problem I see with psionic weapon master is that they use crystal weapons not iron/steel ones. Maybe psysteel can count as both?

It would be awesome if you could be like Sechs from battle angel. Crystalized titanium ftw.

whats wrong with crystal weapons?

Actualy deep crystal is awsome.

term1nally s1ck
2010-04-23, 02:52 PM
Crysteel is both a metal and crystal. Can't recall the source.

Samb
2010-04-23, 04:05 PM
whats wrong with crystal weapons?

Actualy deep crystal is awsome.

DoD's bonuses to crit range require a steel or iron weapon. So deep crystal is out. Maybe deep psysteel?

I have heard reference to psysteel in an Eberron's Sercrets of Xen dirk. The inspired have a seetlement of thralls that mine the area for psysteel that makes up almost everything on Sarlona. No where can I find the mechanics of of such a material, if a deep version exists, or if I really counts as both.

RagnaroksChosen
2010-04-23, 04:37 PM
DoD's bonuses to crit range require a steel or iron weapon. So deep crystal is out. Maybe deep psysteel?

I have heard reference to psysteel in an Eberron's Sercrets of Xen dirk. The inspired have a seetlement of thralls that mine the area for psysteel that makes up almost everything on Sarlona. No where can I find the mechanics of of such a material, if a deep version exists, or if I really counts as both.

True though i don't know how you could get all those into 1 build.

Wasn't there a weapon enchant that made it count as all types of materials?

Edit:
Just found that mythic exemplar from C champion increase the threat range and it stacks with keen and improved

"Sunyartra: The critical threat range of one weapon you wield increases by 1. This increase stacks with those from other sources, such as the keen weapon property or the Improved Critical feat."

Akal Saris
2010-04-23, 07:07 PM
Hm.

A Barbarian 7/Disciple of Dispater 8/Mythic Exemplar 5 using Tiger Fang - a steel kukri, P. 144 Bo9S - would have a critical range of 7-20/x4 Critical on a charge or against a flat-footed foe, for 5 rounds once per day, without having to use kaorti resin.