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Carpone
2010-04-22, 11:26 PM
I'm playing in a 6th level 3.5 D&D campaign and need help identifying optimal buildouts using the following restrictions.

Allowed sourcebooks: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Stormwrack, Arms and Equipment Guide (except for Mercurial Greatswords). If it's not in one of those books, then it's not permitted. Animal companions are limited to PH/DMG/SW.

Additionally, the following classes and prestige classes are allowed from these books:

Samurai, Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior)
Ninja, Dread Pirate (Complete Adventurer)
Favored Soul, Shugenja (Complete Divine)
Wu Jen, Blood Magus (Complete Arcane)

Note: Feats in the Complete books are not permitted unless they are part of the progression from one of the permitted classes (so no cherry picking).

House rules:
1. Profession Sailor and Use Rope are considered class skills for every character.
2. Characters can and probably should be an evil alignment, or at least neutral. Good characters are likely to be killed off. :)
3. Clerics retain access to all three domains (instead of just two). There's a huge number of gods and domain combinations to choose from (too long to list here).

Because it's a pirate/seafaring themed campaign, Knowledge (geography), Profession Sailor and Survival will absolutely be useful but not required.

Would you play anything that's not a straight cleric, druid or wizard? Bonus points for pirate/seafaring theme flavor.

Pluto
2010-04-22, 11:34 PM
Um, you might need to narrow this down a bit.

Unless you're just looking for every capable 6th level build within those sources, I don't really know what you're looking for.

Is there any character concept you're looking for?

Are you specifically against Clerics, Druids and Wizards?
Does this extend to all spellcasters?

edit:
On top of being a shark with laser-vision, the Druid is also Aquaman.

And he controls the winds.

If you don't want the big 3, Wu Jen 6 is the next strongest thing.

Eldariel
2010-04-22, 11:41 PM
What does "Pirate" mean to you? Is the weapon or the pegleg important? What about the parrot or the manner of speech? If you're just talking about an outlaw shipraider in the sea, well, let's just say magic is good.


Druid makes an excellent seafarer. Quite a few skill points, focus on mental stats, and most importantly, a ton of spells that deal with water, wood or wind. Ships are wooden, wind offers key propulsion and water...well, it's relatively obvious, isn't it? Also, Profession: Sailor is a Wisdom-based check and Druids just so happen to be Wisdom-based.

Oh, and it's pretty convenient to have an aquatic companion and be able to assume an aquatic form at will yourself (or indeed, scout as a flier of some manner); and indeed, you can use Wildshape to a form with better physicals (such as any primate) by default, so as to afford higher mentals all-around.

Cleric and Wizard have decent spell access and Cleric shares the Wis-focus (while Wizard has Int-focus for the key Knowledges associated with sailing), and they have quite a few appropriate spells too, but Wizards are a bit better off. Still, Druids tend to be in their element here, so that helps to even the gap between Wizards and Druids a bit.


Archetypal Pirate from movies would most accurately probably be a Rogue. Indeed, it'd be the class I'd pick if I had to go with a non-caster since sailing is skill intensive, and Rogues are fairly good at that, not to mention you still have UMD when you need to replicate stuff.

Rest of the classes are fairly uninspiring for a naval adventure; I could see Rangers and Barbarians faring alright but low-skill classes with no casting are kinda...eh.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-22, 11:41 PM
Druid is probably one of the stronger choices, given the allowed sources and the nautical theme.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 12:03 AM
Hey, 6th level means you can kick off a fun prestige class without any early-entry shenanigans. A Wizard might be happy taking his/her first level of Sea Witch, since you mentioned Stormwrack. I suppose real optimizers wouldn't take it past 3rd level because of lost caster levels, but the options of cursing a whole enemy ship and summoning monsters from the deep appeal to me, so I'd probably go all the way to 7th.

Ehh, with no Daring Outlaw feat, including the Swashbuckler seems pretty pointless. [/nitpick]

Druid is pretty obviously the strongest choice, between being a Big Three member and potentially having an aquatic companion.

JeminiZero
2010-04-23, 12:27 AM
For a nautical campaign such as this, and without a class that gains swim or fly speed (i.e. Druid) I would almost certainly pick Aventi as my race (amphibious human subrace from Stromwrack).

Other than that, barring cleric/druid/wizard? Maybe a Sorcerer. :smalltongue: Although the lack of Versatile Spellcaster, Sorcerer specific spells and Mage of Arcane Order hurt.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 01:41 AM
For a nautical campaign such as this, and without a class that gains swim or fly speed (i.e. Druid) I would almost certainly pick Aventi as my race (amphibious human subrace from Stromwrack).

Other than that, barring cleric/druid/wizard? Maybe a Sorcerer. :smalltongue: Although the lack of Versatile Spellcaster, Sorcerer specific spells and Mage of Arcane Order hurt.

No MotAO in the campaign--it's not in the list of books. I agree with looking for a swim/fly speed in racial choice, though.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 02:03 AM
I can run a CW samurai in that game, but he needs to be level 14 before he can completely break your game. Well, there is one feat in a source not allowed which makes it completely over-the-top broken, but he can start breaking your game earlier.

The word is: Intimidation. Look up Takahashi no Onisan. CW Samurai, can reliabally hit something like a 40ish on his Intimidate check, at level 13, and make all opponents within 30' Cowering as a Move action.

Without that feat from the prohibited source, it just takes more loopholes, since Fear effects stack, he'd have to spend a couple of turns to get everything Cowering, but it can be done. At level 10, he can AE intimidate as a Standard Action, and at 14 he can do it as a Move action.

Rogue/Swashbuckler is a very strong damage output build, particularly with the feat to stack them up. Very thematic, as well.

Ranger is also going to be very powerful in this game, as a ranged combatant. Worse, if he can go Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter. Had a pretty nasty fellow by the name of Bosun McGee I wrote up for a contest once, was a CE Ranger with a particularly foul parrot (stated like hawk) for an animal companion. Far Shot + flaming arrows + opponent sails = bad news for them. This is a guy who knows the seas like the back of his hand, who can actually talk to the dolphins to get some scouting done for him.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 02:39 AM
I can run a CW samurai in that game, but he needs to be level 14 before he can completely break your game. Well, there is one feat in a source not allowed which makes it completely over-the-top broken, but he can start breaking your game earlier.

The word is: Intimidation. Look up Takahashi no Onisan. CW Samurai, can reliabally hit something like a 40ish on his Intimidate check, at level 13, and make all opponents within 30' Cowering as a Move action.

Without that feat from the prohibited source, it just takes more loopholes, since Fear effects stack, he'd have to spend a couple of turns to get everything Cowering, but it can be done. At level 10, he can AE intimidate as a Standard Action, and at 14 he can do it as a Move action.

I was wondering how to get more info on that build I saw in your sig. Is it meant to be "Oni-san", as in devil, or "Onii-san", as in big brother?


Rogue/Swashbuckler is a very strong damage output build, particularly with the feat to stack them up. Very thematic, as well.

Ranger is also going to be very powerful in this game, as a ranged combatant. Worse, if he can go Scout/Ranger/Swift Hunter. Had a pretty nasty fellow by the name of Bosun McGee I wrote up for a contest once, was a CE Ranger with a particularly foul parrot (stated like hawk) for an animal companion. Far Shot + flaming arrows + opponent sails = bad news for them. This is a guy who knows the seas like the back of his hand, who can actually talk to the dolphins to get some scouting done for him.

Scout, Daring Outlaw, and Swift Hunter are not legal in the OP's campaign. This made me sad, as I am currently playing a budding Swift Hunter in one campaign and a budding Daring Outlaw in another.

On the archery, it seems to me like seafaring campaigns are a particularly good time for wind, fog, visibility etc. to interfere with your aim. Good thing the targets you're aiming for are so big.

JeminiZero
2010-04-23, 02:44 AM
Caveat: Shneekey's IntimiSamurai is mind affecting. While it will work against most enemies, there remains the possibility of an Embarassing death at the hands of a skeleton crew (or anything else with immunity to fear/mindaffecting). Keep away from ships with black sails and shrouding mists.


No MotAO in the campaign--it's not in the list of books. I agree with looking for a swim/fly speed in racial choice, though.

Which is why I said that their lack hurts Sorcerers.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 02:47 AM
Caveat: Shneekey's IntimiSamurai is mind affecting. While it will work against most enemies, there remains the possibility of an Embarassing death at the hands of a skeleton crew (or anything else with immunity to fear/mindaffecting). Keep away from ships with black sails and shrouding mists.


Summon an elemental to turn the boat. LOL

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 02:57 AM
Which is why I said that their lack hurts Sorcerers.

Oh. I parsed badly. Eh, he has Libris Mortis, he still has access to Mother Cyst. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 04:53 AM
I was wondering how to get more info on that build I saw in your sig. Is it meant to be "Oni-san", as in devil, or "Onii-san", as in big brother? Oni-San, as in demon.

The improved build is found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), but the original was straight CW Samurai 13. The improved version has much higher checks, and can Take 10 to make it a flat DC 48 to beat with your Will Save Modifier + HD... at level 13.

About the only things in the build that doesn't work right for this campaign are:

1) Exemplar. To be able to Take 10 on Intimidate checks
2) Imperious Commander. To be able to make Cowering on Intimidate check
3) Fearful enchantment (from DotUD). To make it a move action, before level 14

The ToB stuff just increases his damage output, and can be skipped. The real game-breaker is shutting everything down.


On the archery, it seems to me like seafaring campaigns are a particularly good time for wind, fog, visibility etc. to interfere with your aim. Good thing the targets you're aiming for are so big.

Also good thing I have Improved Precise Shot to negate miss chances...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 04:59 AM
Oni-San, as in demon.

The improved build is found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), but the original was straight CW Samurai 13. The improved version has much higher checks, and can Take 10 to make it a flat DC 48 to beat with your Will Save Modifier + HD... at level 13.

About the only things in the build that doesn't work right for this campaign are:

1) Exemplar. To be able to Take 10 on Intimidate checks
2) Imperious Commander. To be able to make Cowering on Intimidate check
3) Fearful enchantment (from DotUD). To make it a move action, before level 14

The ToB stuff just increases his damage output, and can be skipped. The real game-breaker is shutting everything down.



Also good thing I have Improved Precise Shot to negate miss chances...

Only so long as those chances are due to less than total concealment... Which fog can do.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 05:09 AM
Only so long as those chances are due to less than total concealment... Which fog can do.

also blocks your own LoS. Doesn't do you any good to keep yourself from attacking...

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 05:33 AM
One Word:

Grapeshot.

Who cares about aim? :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 05:35 AM
One Word:

Grapeshot.

Who cares about aim? :smallbiggrin:

Are there mechanics for that sort of thing? If not... wouldn't matter.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 05:41 AM
Are there mechanics for that sort of thing? If not... wouldn't matter.

Area Effect abilities? Drop a fog cloud spell on the enemy deck, then fire cannons into the ship.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 05:56 AM
Gee, I was thinking more in terms of the sort of ordinary fog, wind, etc, that pop up under ordinary seafaring conditions.

At any rate, Shneekey, I'm curious as to how Improved Precise Shot will aid Carpone in building a 6th-level character.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 05:59 AM
Gee, I was thinking more in terms of the sort of ordinary fog, wind, etc, that pop up under ordinary seafaring conditions.

At any rate, Shneekey, I'm curious as to how Improved Precise Shot will aid Carpone in building a 6th-level character.

Well, there's natural fog too... For that, there's listen checks, and....

RAMMING SPEED!!!

nedz
2010-04-23, 06:01 AM
If you do decide to play a caster then spell range will be critical for ship to ship encounters. Except in low vis, Ships are visible from miles away, and they close slowly. So Enlarge spell is what you need.
Flight is obviously useful whatever you play, as is not sinking should you fall overboard.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 06:09 AM
5.5 miles away from 15 feet above the waterline.
8 miles from 45 feet up.
13 miles for visibility to a ship's mast over the horizon from 45 feet up.

Amphetryon
2010-04-23, 07:03 AM
As an alternative to the "play a caster" calls:

N or NE Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3. Prestige into Scarlet Corsair.

Chen
2010-04-23, 07:11 AM
I can run a CW samurai in that game, but he needs to be level 14 before he can completely break your game. Well, there is one feat in a source not allowed which makes it completely over-the-top broken, but he can start breaking your game earlier.

The word is: Intimidation. Look up Takahashi no Onisan. CW Samurai, can reliabally hit something like a 40ish on his Intimidate check, at level 13, and make all opponents within 30' Cowering as a Move action.

Without that feat from the prohibited source, it just takes more loopholes, since Fear effects stack, he'd have to spend a couple of turns to get everything Cowering, but it can be done. At level 10, he can AE intimidate as a Standard Action, and at 14 he can do it as a Move action.


I don't really know any DM that would allow this in an actual game. Considering you need to actively prepare for it to tone it down (ie lots of things that are immune to mind affecting) it seems like its just cheese.

Math_Mage
2010-04-23, 07:14 AM
As an alternative to the "play a caster" calls:

N or NE Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3. Prestige into Scarlet Corsair.

As previously noted, lots less appealing without access to Daring Outlaw. Doing +2d6 SA without an iterative at level 6 is...underwhelming, though Craven can help make up the difference...wait, no, it can't, since it's from Champions of Ruin. I guess Insightful strike is still good to have. But I'm playing essentially this build in a game right now, and it's not powerful. The OP would almost be better off diving deep into the skillmonkey role and going straight Rogue.

EDIT: I should amend this--I'm not a great optimizer, so it's likely I'm not making best use of the build.

Akal Saris
2010-04-23, 10:28 AM
Oni-San, as in demon.

The improved build is found here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726), but the original was straight CW Samurai 13. The improved version has much higher checks, and can Take 10 to make it a flat DC 48 to beat with your Will Save Modifier + HD... at level 13.

About the only things in the build that doesn't work right for this campaign are:

1) Exemplar. To be able to Take 10 on Intimidate checks
2) Imperious Commander. To be able to make Cowering on Intimidate check
3) Fearful enchantment (from DotUD). To make it a move action, before level 14

The ToB stuff just increases his damage output, and can be skipped. The real game-breaker is shutting everything down.



Also good thing I have Improved Precise Shot to negate miss chances...

To be honest, I think the best parts of that build are Imperious Command and the Fearful enchantment (Fearful just so you don't have to waste 14 levels in samurai...). Without those two things the character just won't be particularly exciting to play, especially since the game is starting from 6th and it's a long trek through the wilderness of poor class features until 14th level or so. It's nifty what you've done with the samurai, but I don't think this is the game for it. As a sidenote, including -san as part of the name is a little weird - it would be like me naming my character Mr. Takahashi the Devil.

Personally, I'll echo many others and recommend straight druid for the game. Another fun combination might be Druid/Stormcaster or Cleric/Stormcaster with the weather-type domains for a clerical blaster. Stormcaster 5 appends a stunning effect to all lightning spells you cast, which makes every damage spell also a control spell. Would probably be a lot of fun if you like blasting things.

Person_Man
2010-04-23, 11:01 AM
Without access to splatbook feats, your melee options are going to suck. So I second Druid. If you want to be a Wizard instead, Stormcaster from Stormwrack eventually becomes a good PrC when you hit level 5 (ECL 10) and get the Thunderbolt ability - any Electricity spell you use deals extra sonic damage and target must Save or be Stunned. Use Energy Substitution and Born of Three Thunders and go to town.

Carpone
2010-04-23, 08:50 PM
Great feedback so far.

The melee options feel unexciting. The most interesting I could come up with is a human Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Horizon Walker 1, with the plan to take HW up to 6 for dimension door. Good skills for a nautical campaign (Profession Sailor, Survival, Knowledge Geography). Add Leadership and he's a captain.

Druid has a great feel with wild shape aquatic forms (giant octopus at level 8 for ultimate grappling action). Probably go the Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning and Natural Spell route, though I've been tempted to go 1 Monk/5 Druid for Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows and +AC since wilding clasp is not permitted.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 08:56 PM
Great feedback so far.

The melee options feel unexciting. The most interesting I could come up with is a human Ranger 3 / Fighter 1 / Barbarian 1 / Horizon Walker 1, with the plan to take HW up to 6 for dimension door. Good skills for a nautical campaign (Profession Sailor, Survival, Knowledge Geography). Add Leadership and he's a captain.

Druid has a great feel with wild shape aquatic forms (giant octopus at level 8 for ultimate grappling action). Probably go the Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning and Natural Spell route, though I've been tempted to go 1 Monk/5 Druid for Improved Grapple, Flurry of Blows and +AC since wilding clasp is not permitted.

Then what about this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#wild)? Wilding clasps allow a lot of shenanigans. Wild armor is just about AC.

Monk will likely detract a bit from your character for a bit. Your call though, but it'll put you a level behind on spells.

demidracolich
2010-04-23, 09:00 PM
I had a 4th level druid, first level triton monster class in an aquatic campaign. I used shapeshifting because my dm banned wildshape and had a sea serpent animal companian.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-04-23, 11:19 PM
As a sidenote, including -san as part of the name is a little weird - it would be like me naming my character Mr. Takahashi the Devil.

As a bit of pedantry, oriental names are read clan name then first name. So the correct way of reading it would be "The Devil from Clan Takahashi". As he is quite literally the scariest human on the planet... that is not an unreasonable title. Also, Takahashi is the third most common surname in Japan, so it is rather like saying "The Devil Named Smith", in an attempt to 'blend in' with the mundanes.

-san is a title of polite respect, like 'Mr." is. His title is one which demands respect. While a bit ostentatious, his reputation is such that no one is really in a position to question it.

So yes, I did actually put some thought into naming the character, you just have to understand oriental culture a bit to get it.

[/derail]

Necklaces of Adaptation would be invaluable in this campaign. For a mere 9k, you have effective water breathing and immunity to any gas-related attack, including Stinking Cloud, Cloudkill, or smoke inhalation.

Buoyant property is a +1 equivalent, and lets you use it like a Personal Flotation Device, which may also be of use.

Krazddndfreek
2010-04-23, 11:34 PM
While respectful, calling an oni "san" sounds fairly childish and would probably only be used in a sarcastic tone when regarding it. Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information.