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View Full Version : How to Hide your Phylactery, redux



Heliomance
2010-04-23, 05:46 AM
1) Construct your phylactery in the form of a playing card
2) Obtain a Deck of Many Things
3) Shuffle your phylactery into the Deck of Many Things
4) Laugh

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 05:54 AM
1) Obtain casting thrall
2) Boost his CL artificially (Ioun Stones, Prayer Beads etc.)
3) Have him disjoin (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magesdisjunction.htm) the deck
4) Pull out phylactery card
5) Scissors

You can start at step 2 yourself of course, but why take risks?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 05:57 AM
Place it as the focal point for a magical reactor that is the only thing capable of holding an elder evil in stasis.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 06:01 AM
Place it as the focal point for a magical reactor that is the only thing capable of holding an elder evil in stasis.

"A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 06:05 AM
"A phylactery cannot be part of another magic item, nor may additional magical properties be built into it."

Oh, it doesn't need to be magically affecting it. It just needs to nonmagically interact with the object in such a way as to be intrinsic to its function.

A focusing prism, for example, or a cornerstone.

Perhaps the device scans for a nearby soul of arcane power once every month. During this time, the lich has self-destructed, to make sure he's in his phylactery to stave off the Elder Evil, by making his soul present.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 06:17 AM
Oh, it doesn't need to be magically affecting it. It just needs to nonmagically interact with the object in such a way as to be intrinsic to its function.

Propping it up? :smalltongue:
I don't see how you can claim that a vital component of a magical reactor isn't actually part of it.

The rogue can do an Indy Switch in any case (swap the phylactery for a prism crystal of equal weight/clarity.)

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 06:23 AM
Propping it up? :smalltongue:
I don't see how you can claim that a vital component of a magical reactor isn't actually part of it.

The rogue can do an Indy Switch in any case (swap the phylactery for a prism crystal of equal weight/clarity.)

Hopefully, they'll have luck in identifying HOW it works, and pulling off the switch.

It'd be a shame to indy switch it for another prism, only to find out 13 days later that the reactor also searches for an arcane soul.

Elder Evils aren't something to guess with. And the Indy Switch didn't work out so well for Indy.

EDIT: And vital in that the Magical Macguffin in that it searches for the phylactery. It doesn't need to be part of it to look for it.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 06:28 AM
I would think that a DM that homebrews a mythic device like an Elder Evil Suppression Reactor would also homebrew a way for the PCs to get the phylactery out of it. Otherwise, we just have a Crapsack Campaign and go play Xbox.

Rin_Hunter
2010-04-23, 06:56 AM
Bury the phylactery so deep on the Elemental Plane of Earth that you're hitting diamonds.

Then keep going. :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 07:03 AM
I would think that a DM that homebrews a mythic device like an Elder Evil Suppression Reactor would also homebrew a way for the PCs to get the phylactery out of it. Otherwise, we just have a Crapsack Campaign and go play Xbox.

Depends. If the overall goal was for the PC's to find a new way to imprison an Elder Evil?

JeminiZero
2010-04-23, 07:17 AM
Place it as the focal point for a magical reactor that is the only thing capable of holding an elder evil in stasis.

You know, this presupposes that there ISN'T someone who actively wants to release the Elder Evil, and who will destroy some phylactery that happens to be in the way. :smalltongue:


Depends. If the overall goal was for the PC's to find a new way to imprison an Elder Evil?

The point still stands though. If the PCs goal is to reseal the elder evil, then it similiarly requires the DM to homebrew an alternate Elder Evil sealing method anyway.

Since the entire setup is essentially homebrew, so must its solution (or lack thereof).

druid91
2010-04-23, 07:23 AM
You know, this presupposes that there ISN'T someone who actively wants to release the Elder Evil, and who will destroy some phylactery that happens to be in the way. :smalltongue:


Make it an elder neutral then, or an elder good. they never get cults in their honor.:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 07:25 AM
Make it an elder neutral then, or an elder good. they never get cults in their honor.:smallbiggrin:

Yes, but the PCs would have no reason to leave the device (and attached phylactery) intact in that case. :smalltongue:

...What were we talking about?

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 07:28 AM
You know, this presupposes that there ISN'T someone who actively wants to release the Elder Evil, and who will destroy some phylactery that happens to be in the way. :smalltongue:



The point still stands though. If the PCs goal is to reseal the elder evil, then it similiarly requires the DM to homebrew an alternate Elder Evil sealing method anyway.

Since the entire setup is essentially homebrew, so must its solution (or lack thereof).

Or the players could homebrew it.

I, as a DM, often like to encourage player creativity.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 07:38 AM
Or the players could homebrew it.

I, as a DM, often like to encourage player creativity.

Eh, Freeform isn't really my thing.

They could homebrew a variety of solutions to this problem anyway - a way to break the lich's connection to his existing phylactery, an alternate way to keep the EE sealed, a way to destroy it without weakening the seal, a way to make the EE itself NOM on the phylactery (a ploy; it would think that doing so would damage its prison), etc. So unless the DM is going to say "no" to everything they come up with, it's still not the most effective hiding place.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 07:51 AM
Eh, Freeform isn't really my thing.

They could homebrew a variety of solutions to this problem anyway - a way to break the lich's connection to his existing phylactery, an alternate way to keep the EE sealed, a way to destroy it without weakening the seal, a way to make the EE itself NOM on the phylactery (a ploy; it would think that doing so would damage its prison), etc. So unless the DM is going to say "no" to everything they come up with, it's still not the most effective hiding place.

By that logic, there is no "most effective hiding place".

The only truly safe lich is the one that doesn't adventure, and lives away from the plot.

Therefore: The most effective hiding place is wherever the PC's aren't.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 07:54 AM
By that logic, there is no "most effective hiding place".

The only truly safe lich is the one that doesn't adventure, and lives away from the plot.

Therefore: The most effective hiding place is wherever the PC's aren't.

Exactly :smallsmile:

If a lich wants to be left alone, it needs to stay off the PCs radar. Simply stashing its phylactery is not license to create a ruckus. They need to be almost as cautious as if they didn't have one, because there is no way to keep a phylactery totally safe without (1) homebrew/plot which provides a plot way to neutralize the lich anyway, or (2) extreme cheese, which the PCs then have access to by gentlemen's agreement.

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 08:09 AM
I like the solution in the previous thread that went, "The safest place is as part of a powerful magical item in the possession of the party's rogue." But if that's not actually legal, then the safest place is part of the non-magical masterwork sword the fighter's dying father placed in his hand with the last of his strength.

The safest place isn't wherever the PCs aren't, since you don't know where they'll go. It's wherever they already were. PCs have short attention spans. Hang onto your phylactery and lie low. Wait for them to clear out a dungeon of kobolds or goblins or something. Toss it at the bottom of a pit trap in the cleared dungeon. Begin your evil machinations.

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 08:26 AM
I like the solution in the previous thread that went, "The safest place is as part of a powerful magical item in the possession of the party's rogue." But if that's not actually legal, then the safest place is part of the non-magical masterwork sword the fighter's dying father placed in his hand with the last of his strength.

The question there is - what happens when the fighter tries to enchant his fathere's beloved sword? Does the phylactery "fall out?" Will the enchantment fail, alerting the PCs that something is amiss? Will the phylactery be completely erased due to a "divide by zero" type error? (Cannot be part of a magic item - you make the sword magic - rule has been broken?)


The safest place isn't wherever the PCs aren't, since you don't know where they'll go. It's wherever they already were. PCs have short attention spans. Hang onto your phylactery and lie low. Wait for them to clear out a dungeon of kobolds or goblins or something. Toss it at the bottom of a pit trap in the cleared dungeon. Begin your evil machinations.

The problem the Lich will have there - empty dungeons tend to attract squatters. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) They will then kill the lich when her reforms in his former dungeon, alert the PCs, or stumble across the phylactery themselves.

Divide by Zero
2010-04-23, 09:17 AM
Does a golem count as a magic item?

1: Build your phylactery into a stone golem.
2: Cast stone to flesh
3: Cast imprisonment
4: ?
5: Profit!

Remember, freedom allows spell resistance. But there are some problems, like whether you are affected by the stasis effect if you regenerate.

Seracain
2010-04-23, 09:45 AM
Craft it into a statue of the pc characters, then give it to them as a recognition of all the incredibly and wonderful stuff they have done. Part C of the plan is then complete. :smallamused:

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 10:29 AM
Remember, freedom allows spell resistance.

So does Imprisonment :smalltongue:
Though you could theoretically give it to any immortal creature and Imprison them.

The problem is that any creature Freedom wouldn't work on, probably wouldn't be affected by Imprisonment either.


But there are some problems, like whether you are affected by the stasis effect if you regenerate.

This is another issue, but RAW doesn't specify where the lich regenerates. The Giant has gone with this interpretation, but it isn't the only one. If the DM doesn't have him regenerate where the phylactery is, the Imprisonment won't be an issue.

JeminiZero
2010-04-23, 10:48 AM
So does Imprisonment :smalltongue:
Though you could theoretically give it to any immortal creature and Imprison them.


I think the point of using a stone golem was that its spell resistance could be temporarily removed via stone to flesh, letting imprisonment take effect.

What he forgot to take into account however, is that the temporal stasis effect of imprisonment prevents stone to flesh from expiring, so freedom can still be cast without being blocked by SR.



This is another issue, but RAW doesn't specify where the lich regenerates. The Giant has gone with this interpretation, but it isn't the only one. If the DM doesn't have him regenerate where the phylactery is, the Imprisonment won't be an issue.


Actually the real kicker of imprisonment is that the target creature is in temporal stasis. Otherwise it could escape if it had still/silent teleport/ethereal/other stuff. So even if the Lich regenerates deep in the earth, he might still be able to get out if he prepared some appropriate means of escape. Assuming of course that the temporal stasis effect does not extend to the lich.

The flip side of course is that the creature is merely deep in the earth. Anything which knows its location and earthswim or burrow might still be able to find the golem.

darthava
2010-04-23, 10:56 AM
This might be a good oppertunity for me to ask something regarding phylacterys.
If I as a Dm want a main villian for my campagne to be a lich.
How would I realisticly hide his phylactry? Im thinking of an Island setting with the players starting on a small island. they start doing quests there and once done they discover there is a ship going out to explore the seas(there are no know other islands.)

On this new island undeath reigns.. think zombies and other undead creatures everywhere. I would like to slip the phylactery in there pockets at that moment in the story. The question is... how?

Akal Saris
2010-04-23, 11:10 AM
I guess it depends how much you want the lich to be "smart" versus true to fantasy plots. But the phylactery might have been lost accidentally (stolen?), and is now in the possession of one of the weaker monsters that the PCs encounter. Make it something the PCs will want to take with them, like a pearl-studded teak cigar case.

I don't like the rule that a phylactery can't be an existing magic item - I think it makes sense for a gem of true seeing or similar item to work as a container for the soul, anyhow.

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 11:36 AM
The question there is - what happens when the fighter tries to enchant his fathere's beloved sword? Does the phylactery "fall out?" Will the enchantment fail, alerting the PCs that something is amiss? Will the phylactery be completely erased due to a "divide by zero" type error? (Cannot be part of a magic item - you make the sword magic - rule has been broken?)

Good point. I think it would be a kind of fun plot point to discover the phylactery when the enchantment fails. The fighter now has to either reevaluate his opinion of his father, or find some Good reason for the phylactery to be there.




The problem the Lich will have there - empty dungeons tend to attract squatters. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html) They will then kill the lich when her reforms in his former dungeon, alert the PCs, or stumble across the phylactery themselves.

Yeah, but the squatters will probably be low-level. They aren't going to find the phylactery at the bottom of a pit trap, and if he reforms in the pit trap they likely aren't going to find him, either.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-23, 11:41 AM
My idea:

Step 1. Make friends with a dragon with a MASSIVE hoard of Platinum Coins
Step 2. Make your Phylactery from a Platinum Piece
Step 3. Hurl it into the hoard
Step 4. Have your dragon buddy cast Nondetection on the hoard
Step 5. Laugh maniacally as your enemies search frantically to find it

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 11:45 AM
Step 1. Make friends with a dragon with a MASSIVE hoard of Platinum Coins


The only problem is that now you each have twice as many threats: the people going after the dragon, and the people going after you. There's going to be some overlap there, but it still opens you up to having your phylactery toasted by a bunch of overzealous dragon-slayers.

~LuckyBoneDice~
2010-04-23, 11:48 AM
The only problem is that now you each have twice as many threats: the people going after the dragon, and the people going after you. There's going to be some overlap there, but it still opens you up to having your phylactery toasted by a bunch of overzealous dragon-slayers.

Even if they spend all of the platinum, its still in existance

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 11:52 AM
Yes. But not if it gets destroyed in the fight, they melt it down to create a statue or put it into bars for easier transport, etc.

WarKitty
2010-04-23, 11:52 AM
Yes, but the PCs would have no reason to leave the device (and attached phylactery) intact in that case. :smalltongue:

...What were we talking about?

You should meet my PC's...best to keep the elder good imprisoned so it doesn't mess up my plans for world domination.

2xMachina
2010-04-23, 11:58 AM
Give to good dragons? Generally, adventurers don't kill good dragons. Those that do, don't care about destroying Phylacteries.

Last Laugh
2010-04-23, 12:08 PM
My idea:

Step 1. Make friends with a dragon with a MASSIVE hoard of Platinum Coins
Step 2. Make your Phylactery from a Platinum Piece
Step 3. Hurl it into the hoard
Step 4. Have your dragon buddy cast Nondetection on the hoard
Step 5. Laugh maniacally as your enemies search frantically to find it

Yay, you just put a bounty on your Phylactery!

Beorn080
2010-04-23, 12:28 PM
Put your Phylactery in a Portable Hole, along with some scrolls of plane shift. Close portable hole, Teleport into space until you hit another planet, bury portable hole and surround it with permancied walls of force, prismatics, and all forms of symbols. Drop a mage's private sanctum around it, and no one can scry in any way for it.

Then, go back to your planet and do the same work somewhere else, but this time protect a Book of Explosive runes on top of a weight activated Dispel Magic trap made by a lvl 3ish wizard, who will naturally be made into a zombie after he is done.

Zaakar
2010-04-23, 01:12 PM
My idea:

Step 1. Make friends with a dragon with a MASSIVE hoard of Platinum Coins
Step 2. Make your Phylactery from a Platinum Piece
Step 3. Hurl it into the hoard
Step 4. Have your dragon buddy cast Nondetection on the hoard
Step 5. Laugh maniacally as your enemies search frantically to find it

If the players know that it's in that hoard, they will "kill" you, then the dragon, then search for a coin that there's a lich growing out of. Not that hard :smallamused:

FishAreWet
2010-04-23, 01:19 PM
Time Hop, Mass (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHopMass.htm) once a day.

J.Gellert
2010-04-23, 01:21 PM
Just keep it on the other side of the world, and protected from scrying.

People here don't know about the phylactery. People over there don't know about the lich.

You could even trade phylacteries with another super-powerful lich that you can trust. That way if one of you is attacked, he reforms at his buddy's place. Of course you'd have to trust the other immortal to help you, which might work if you are in the Twisted Rune, but otherwise problematic...

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 01:42 PM
Give to good dragons? Generally, adventurers don't kill good dragons. Those that do, don't care about destroying Phylacteries.

Why would a good dragon help an evil lich?

Here's an idea: give it to a respected but somewhat naive king. Tell him there's a prophecy that if ever the item leaves his possession or is destroyed, his noble house will fall. Remind him to pass this info along to all of his royal descendants.

If he does get assassinated and/or the thing is destroyed, it's highly unlikely that it'll happen at the same time as someone is trying to kill you. And if you have to reform near the phylactery, it'll probably end up somewhere very safe and secret and quiet, which is ideal.

Escheton
2010-04-23, 01:47 PM
there is a dwarf subtype that can walk through solid stone or earth to just grab gems wthout digging and such.

give one of them your pylactery after domanating him, whiping his memory and knowledge of his name and such, use lots of nondetection type spells.
give him items so he doesnt have to eat sleep of breath.

teleport him to the moon, make him walk endlessly till he dies, somewhere in the moon...

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 01:52 PM
Give to good dragons? Generally, adventurers don't kill good dragons. Those that do, don't care about destroying Phylacteries.

You'd basically be counting on that good dragon to fail his DC 25 Knowledge (Arcana) check to recognize what you just gave him.


Time Hop, Mass (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHopMass.htm) once a day.

Now this one is interesting, because it violates causality. While your phylactery is outside the time stream, it effectively doesn't exist. If you die while it is 'hopped, you will have died BEFORE you had a phylactery. And like any lich who is destroyed without a phylactery, you will stay dead.

For the "hide it in a moon/planet" suggestions, those are good ones... but space travel means Spelljammer, and there's some nasty things floating around out there.

Zen Master
2010-04-23, 02:18 PM
Find a rock. Any rock will do. Use it for the phylactery.
Find the foundation of the new Eternal Palace being built for whomever, wherever.
Toss in the rock.
Allow for the passage of time to reduce everything into obscurity.

Eternal Palaces last for a long time, but their ruined foundations may well last forever, and no one goes digging through all the gravel for one special rock, that just happens to be the bound soul of a lich.

Swordgleam
2010-04-23, 02:40 PM
Find the foundation of the new Eternal Palace being built for whomever, wherever.

This one comes up a lot (because it's great). Someday, in some campaign of mine, there is going to be a palace/temple the foundation of which is entirely made of phylacteries, each placed there by a lich who thought he was being extremely clever.

And just what kind of effect would that have on the temple?

Optimystik
2010-04-23, 03:07 PM
And just what kind of effect would that have on the temple?

Libris Mortis has rules for "haunting presences" where evil creatures or objects dwell over a period of time. Liches are listed as a possible cause - that could easily extend to their phylacteries.

DaedalusMkV
2010-04-23, 04:02 PM
Step 1: Obtain Epic Magic.
Step 2: Genesis to create a demiplane. Anything will do. Make it roughly 20' by 20'
Step 3: Travel to demiplane. Use Epic Spell with whatever mitigators necessary to ward the plane from any incoming teleportation or plane shift effects. Outgoing effects should not be affected.
Step 4: Drop Phylactery on ground in demiplane. Plane Shift out.

Unless a Greater Deity with Alter Reality gets involved, the only being in the universe who can ever get to your Phylactery is you, and then only by dying and regenerating there. Getting back to what you were doing is only one spell away. It does require you to be Epic, though, unless you're willing to rely on something like a Persisted Forbiddance effect, which is much less restrictive about who can get past.

Vizzerdrix
2010-04-23, 04:17 PM
Hmm... I think I'd make mine a spoon, and hide it in the root cellar of some abandoned fallen down farm. Someplace with poor land for farming so no one would want to go there. Then leave an effigy mole behind to dig tiny tunnels to drag it into if anything happened.

Boci
2010-04-23, 04:23 PM
If the players know that it's in that hoard, they will "kill" you, then the dragon, then search for a coin that there's a lich growing out of. Not that hard :smallamused:

IIRC, although probably Rules As Intended, RAW never states a lich must grow out of their phylactery, or even anywhere near it.

Archpaladin Zousha
2010-04-23, 04:39 PM
These threads always seem needlessly complicated to me. I always figured all you had to do is just make sure your phylactery is hidden in the foundation of your evil lair when you build it. If the PCs wanna get at it, they're gonna have to tear down the building to get to it, and any well-constructed evil lair should be hard to demolish on principle. Problem solved, simple as that. No magic, no artifacts, just simple forethought and good engineering.

PhoenixRivers
2010-04-23, 04:53 PM
Alternately, there's shuffling it between one pocket dimension or another. MMM and the like. Just need to make it last 10 days, minimum. Research a 9th level variant, perhaps. Either that or Consumptive Field a Caster level of 120 every week or so, and cast an extended MMM that lasts for 20 days. Just move the phylactery into it, periodically, as such:

1) Enter MMM
2) get Phylactery
3) Consumptive Field all the chickens in your portable hole (attain CL 120)
4) Buff self with full "can't detect me" buff suite
5) Plane Shift out to the material plane
6) Cast a Rod quickened MMM, walk in.
7) Deposit phylactery.

druid91
2010-04-23, 05:06 PM
eh, be a dry lich, you get five phylacteries. Do five of the above.